On The State of Israel - Should it exist, or should it not? Is it already just fine, or do some things need to be fixed?

[The best and greatest]

I don't see why the West should help Israel or Afghanistan when we have our own problems to look after.

Let them all beat each other to death over whether the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely guided by Allah or not, but we shouldn't be propping up Ba'athists or sheiks for the sake of oil money.

Afghanistan is a strategically important place on the world map. Its central location within the Eurasian continent makes it an excellent staging point for American Incursions into its rivals territories(China, Iran) should it ever come to that. This is without considering whatever earthly wealth is tucked away in them there hills, boi!

Also Opium I guess?

 

[Marshal Mannerheim]

Also Opium I guess?

You are Queen Victoria and I claim my £5.

 

[Jah Hates Kaffirs]

I don't see why the West should help Israel or Afghanistan when we have our own problems to look after.

Let them all beat each other to death over whether the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely guided by Allah or not, but we shouldn't be propping up Ba'athists or sheiks for the sake of oil money.

Gas and precious metals speak louder then domestic problems to leaders.
No exceptions.

 

[Hellbound Hellhound]

I don't see why the West should help Israel or Afghanistan when we have our own problems to look after.

Problems that will only get worse if the West decides to become isolationist; especially with an expanding China and an increasingly desperate Russia. The West needs allies around the world, and the geographic position of Israel coupled with it's overall political ethos make it more than worth the cost of a relatively paltry sum of aid and a few treaties here and there.

We're not talking about a boots on the ground "nation building" scenario here (a la Afghanistan), because Israel is already an industrious nation that can more than support itself. The same cannot be said for most of it's neighbors, so the question then becomes one of which option you would prefer: a Middle East that more resembles Israel, or an Israel which more resembles the rest of the Middle East?

Let them all beat each other to death over whether the Rashidun Caliphs were divinely guided by Allah or not, but we shouldn't be propping up Ba'athists or sheiks for the sake of oil money.

I agree that the West shouldn't be supporting despotic, medieval theocracies which have no place in the 21st century, but the reality is that most of these countries are going to end up being proxies in a larger global struggle one way or another if efforts are not made to create the conditions where that cannot happen.

I'm not arguing that it should be the West which shoulders the burden of that effort, but at the same time I don't think we can afford to be indifferent to it. The fact remains that a prosperous and democratic Middle East would be a huge boon to the West, while a despotic and unstable Middle East can only serve to enable rogue powers like China.

 

[Imperial Citizen]

I'm not arguing that it should be the West which shoulders the burden of that effort, but at the same time I don't think we can afford to be indifferent to it. The fact remains that a prosperous and democratic Middle East would be a huge boon to the West, while a despotic and unstable Middle East can only serve to enable rogue powers like China.

The issue is how do you get a democratic Middle East? The Iranian Revolution and the Arab Spring show that there is a massive pushback to democratization/secularization. We know that the young Middle Easterners want to be connected with the world and be more secular, but how long will it be until they take power and will those in power allow them to take the reigns?

 

[biggest big boy]

go israel. all my homies love israel

 

[Protistology]

A "Jewish" state is a contradiction. G-d commands no Jewish state in Israel or elsewhere until the Mashiach comes and ends the Exile (Galut).

https://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/opposition.cfm

Ten Questions to the Zionists

Ten Questions to the Zionists by Rabbi Weissmandl, Dean of Nitra Yeshiva

www.nkusa.org

Ketubot 111a

“They shall be taken to Babylonia and there they shall remain until the day that I recall them, said the Lord” (Jeremiah 27:22). Based on that verse, Rav...

www.sefaria.org

How else do you explain that Israel hasn't known peace for even a single year since it's creation? Israel is a rebellion against G-d's will.

 

[Marshal Mannerheim]

Israel is already an industrious nation that can more than support itself.

Then why does America need to pay it $3.8 billion a year?

 

[FUTUREMAN]

Nigger, i just wanna grill.....
Like i hold little love for Israel, But by god is Palestine(not palestinIANS mind you) psychotic. Every time i bring this up in my place, people just chimp out and starts calling me a sympathiser or whatever the fuck. Even though i said absolutely nothing negative about the people(who're the true victims here).
Like Goddamn i don't wanna care about the antics of some pissy fags bitching over some useless land and old-ass buildings, but every time smth happens there everyone starts shoving it in my face, and give me shocked looks and smug mugs when i say smth slightly outside the norm.
Doesn't help that most people here would've hanged me for 'apostasy', so i'm just neutral over this subject.
My verdict is to just have a meteor slam onto Temple Mount already.

 

[Cat Phuckers]

To preface this, people might consider me both a bit of a judeophile and an antisemite. I find Jewish culture quite interesting, but I see the Jewish people as a morally bankrupt and predatory group that others need to be careful around, though not a boogeyman or "root of all the world's problems" group that needs to be completely erased like many seem to think they are. These arguments aren't meant to be logistical, but an ideal that would likely only ever occur in a fantasy world.

I believe that the state of Israel is a very flawed nation that unnecessarily victimizes Palestinians, Arabs, and even other Jews. It's a mindless system that seems to have a very strong basis on fear of another Holocaust, yet its actions appear to fuel antisemitism and create reasons for people to vouch for another shoah. My opinion is it might be too late for the state of Israel to do what it needs to do to protect itself while also surrendering unnecessary and vile policies. The Israeli government should also protect religious and ethnic minorities (Jewish and other indigenous peoples), as well as recently-arriving Jewish olim who are discriminated against. There are far too many ethnic conflicts between Jewish groups that have yet to be reconciled. I worry that the Jewish people are intrinsically predispositioned towards victimizing others, so a good way to prevent them from doing so would be to weaken them so they are perpetually conscious of the potential consequences of any bold actions they may feel an urge to take. The Israeli government should surrender much of the land it has taken from surrounding nations, such as any political administration of majority Arab areas within Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, Mount Sinai. They should take a stand against Israeli settlements and destroy them by any means necessary, as they did with settlements in Gaza in 2005. It should be up to the people who currently live in these areas legally whether Jews should be welcomed.

The only concern I have with the policy I've proposed is that the Israelis have done so much wrong that they truly do face an existential threat, where even if they did attempt to enact a policy of coexistence with surrounding nations, said nations wouldn't be convinced and would simply destroy Israel. I sympathize with this concern, but I honestly couldn't blame the Arabs if they did decide to take the path of destroying Israel, and in the event they did do so I could hardly even be mad at them, even though the implications of them doing so would unfortunately almost certainly lead to an erasure of so much Jewish history and culture. The land of Israel has historically had a significant Jewish presence, and even though they've taken it back for the time being, I don't know if I see that as enough reason to warrant an overwhelmingly Jewish state in a historically multiethnic area. Israel was never entirely Jewish from what I understand, and if the Jewish people could coexist with the other peoples in the past, then I'm hoping they could go back to doing that.

TL;DR I think Israel should surrender their disproportionate power, cede their illegal and legal possession of land, and give ethnic and religious minorities more rights, and whatever happens to them as a result is probably justified, though I prefer the Jewish people aren't completely erased. Perhaps an Arab nation with a Constitutionally-protected Jewish minority could be ideal.

P.S. On a side note, outside the main scope of my post, which mainly pertains to Israel's relationship with non-Jewish peoples and surrounding nations, I also think that Israel should be more focused on getting golus to make aliyah to assure that if the nation of Israel ever does lose political power, the Jewish people who remain in the area of Israel still retain power in numbers, though I couldn't blame a Canadian Jew for instance for not wanting to move to a nation like Israel, where political, religious, ethnic, and inter-Jewish ethnic/religious conflict is quite a big problem.

EDIT: Reformatted because somehow people can't tell one paragraph apart from the next unless I put two spaces between them instead of just one, bad habit of mine.

 

[Maurice Caine]

To preface this, people might consider me both a bit of a judeophile and an antisemite. I find Jewish culture quite interesting, but I see the Jewish people as a morally bankrupt and predatory group that others need to be careful around, though not a boogeyman or "root of all the world's problems" group that needs to be completely erased like many seem to think they are. These arguments aren't meant to be logistical, but an ideal that would likely only ever occur in a fantasy world.
I believe that the state of Israel is a very flawed nation that unnecessarily victimizes Palestinians, Arabs, and even other Jews. It's a mindless system that seems to have a very strong basis on fear of another Holocaust, yet its actions appear to fuel antisemitism and create reasons for people to vouch for another shoah. My opinion is it might be too late for the state of Israel to do what it needs to do to protect itself while also surrendering unnecessary and vile policies. The Israeli government should also protect religious and ethnic minorities (Jewish and other indigenous peoples), as well as recently-arriving Jewish olim who are discriminated against. There are far too many ethnic conflicts between Jewish groups that have yet to be reconciled. I worry that the Jewish people are intrinsically predispositioned towards victimizing others, so a good way to prevent them from doing so would be to weaken them so they are perpetually conscious of the potential consequences of any bold actions they may feel an urge to take. The Israeli government should surrender much of the land it has taken from surrounding nations, such as any political administration of majority Arab areas within Jerusalem, the West Bank, Gaza, Mount Sinai. They should take a stand against Israeli settlements and destroy them by any means necessary, as they did with settlements in Gaza in 2005. It should be up to the people who currently live in these areas legally whether Jews should be welcomed.
The only concern I have with the policy I've proposed is that the Israelis have done so much wrong that they truly do face an existential threat, where even if they did attempt to enact a policy of coexistence with surrounding nations, said nations wouldn't be convinced and would simply destroy Israel. I sympathize with this concern, but I honestly couldn't blame the Arabs if they did decide to take the path of destroying Israel, and in the event they did do so I could hardly even be mad at them, even though the implications of them doing so would unfortunately almost certainly lead to an erasure of so much Jewish history and culture. The land of Israel has historically had a significant Jewish presence, and even though they've taken it back for the time being, I don't know if I see that as enough reason to warrant an overwhelmingly Jewish state in a historically multiethnic area. Israel was never entirely Jewish from what I understand, and if the Jewish people could coexist with the other peoples in the past, then I'm hoping they could go back to doing that.
TL;DR I think Israel should surrender their disproportionate power, cede their illegal and legal possession of land, and give ethnic and religious minorities more rights, and whatever happens to them as a result is probably justified, though I prefer the Jewish people aren't completely erased. Perhaps an Arab nation with a Constitutionally-protected Jewish minority could be ideal.
P.S. On a side note, outside the main scope of my post, which mainly pertains to Israel's relationship with non-Jewish peoples and surrounding nations, I also think that Israel should be more focused on getting golus to make aliyah to assure that if the nation of Israel ever does lose political power, the Jewish people who remain in the area of Israel still retain power in numbers, though I couldn't blame a Canadian Jew for instance for not wanting to move to a nation like Israel, where political, religious, ethnic, and inter-Jewish ethnic/religious conflict is quite a big problem.

 

[Cat Phuckers]

View attachment 2161656

Yes. I write le politigram-tier essays all the time, and I think the prompt in the thread's OP warrants my unrelenting spergery.

 

[Maurice Caine]

Yes. I write le politigram-tier essays all the time, and I think the prompt in the thread's OP warrants my unrelenting spergery.

Learn how to format, your text reads like Google's terms of service

 

[Cabelaz]

SandLand will remain uncivilized for all eternity, how can you expect them to form democratic governments and prosperous industry if they can't even get clean water?

Let the Jews have their little slice of hell. They gave us Adam Sandler after all.

 

[Seminal Ointments Lain]

How many of these threads do we need?