"Polite" lies as evidence that we need a more "impolite" society. - Aka: why are we afriad to speak the truth?

[Penis Drager]

We've all (presumably) been there before: some guy, maybe a coworker, classmate, or some random dude you come across often, is perfectly tolerable, enjoyable even, for chit-chat. But you wouldn't consider him a "friend" and you don't want him to be your friend. He asks to hang out some time and you don't want to. The typical "polite" response, of course, being "sorry, I'm busy" or something to that tune, and you dread him asking you what you're doing if you don't already have an excuse prepared. If asked, you feel compelled to come up with some believable bullshit on the spot when you really want to tell him "I don't want to hang out with you, in particular, ever."
When put that way, it sounds kinda fucked up. And it's not like you don't like the guy or don't enjoy the occasional water-cooler chat. He's just not someone you want to dedicate any of your off-time to. Wouldn't it be so much easier if we could simply explain that you're happy with the current social dynamic that you share at the moment and would like things to stay as they are for the foreseeable future? Unfortunately, social norms being what they are, that would be rude. So you both end up in this perpetual cycle (or at least one lasting long enough for him to get the hint) of him asking to hang out and you coming with any reason not to.

This applies to having to "friend zone" people as well. This is probably more often experienced by women, but men end up here as well. You enjoy someone's company for purely platonic reasons, but it soon becomes obvious that they want to be "more than friends." They, out of fear, may take some (or a lot of) time to openly express their desires while also passively suggesting them. So you're a bit stuck, enjoying this person's company, but knowing they want more. You have to wait for them to bring it up before you can really express your lack of sexual interest. Obviously, it would be kinda weird (and maybe offensive) to bring up that you do not find them sexually attractive. But imagine if we lived in a society where you could say "by the way, I would not have sex with you" to a friend and their response being "well, I would have sex with you. But that's okay, we can stay friends. I'll bark up other trees in the meantime" without that being incredibly awkward.

Instead of being honest with people, we're stuck leading people on for fear of being rude. That's honestly kind of fucked up, but here we are.
What if it wasn't rude?

 

[Un Platano]

We wouldn't have this problem if everybody were autistic.

 

[Alkaline Cab]

People don't like to cause trouble, don't (particularly) like to change the status quo.

It's the same as politk - you just don't discuss it casually because your bound to tickle a few fee fees. And if a dangerhair rattles on about raycism, most people prefer to just play along - especially if the former has janny power. It isn't about being "nice" or "rude"; more so that it'll take too much time/effort in the moment to be blunt and take the aftermath. You also don't gain much by breaking these social norms (and end up in a worse position b/c you did). Therefore, even if it was perfectly fine, most people would still be too afraid of speaking out. Plus, people aren't exactly rational about rejection...

Not to say it isn't a problem; the participation medal IPhone generation certainly doesn't help. Like teens of days past, they don't understand rejection. but blah blah echochamber discord group reinforced entitlement; often, many actively learn not to handle it. And what happens when they actively shoo people away? (whenever it'd be personality, fat, or some mutilated genitalia)

 

[Lemmingwise]

We've all (presumably) been there before: some guy, maybe a coworker, classmate, or some random dude you come across often, is perfectly tolerable, enjoyable even, for chit-chat. But you wouldn't consider him a "friend" and you don't want him to be your friend. He asks to hang out some time and you don't want to. The typical "polite" response, of course, being "sorry, I'm busy" or something to that tune, and you dread him asking you what you're doing if you don't already have an excuse prepared. If asked, you feel compelled to come up with some believable bullshit on the spot when you really want to tell him "I don't want to hang out with you, in particular, ever."
When put that way, it sounds kinda fucked up. And it's not like you don't like the guy or don't enjoy the occasional water-cooler chat. He's just not someone you want to dedicate any of your off-time to. Wouldn't it be so much easier if we could simply explain that you're happy with the current social dynamic that you share at the moment and would like things to stay as they are for the foreseeable future? Unfortunately, social norms being what they are, that would be rude. So you both end up in this perpetual cycle (or at least one lasting long enough for him to get the hint) of him asking to hang out and you coming with any reason not to.

This applies to having to "friend zone" people as well. This is probably more often experienced by women, but men end up here as well. You enjoy someone's company for purely platonic reasons, but it soon becomes obvious that they want to be "more than friends." They, out of fear, may take some (or a lot of) time to openly express their desires while also passively suggesting them. So you're a bit stuck, enjoying this person's company, but knowing they want more. You have to wait for them to bring it up before you can really express your lack of sexual interest. Obviously, it would be kinda weird (and maybe offensive) to bring up that you do not find them sexually attractive. But imagine if we lived in a society where you could say "by the way, I would not have sex with you" to a friend and their response being "well, I would have sex with you. But that's okay, we can stay friends. I'll bark up other trees in the meantime" without that being incredibly awkward.

Instead of being honest with people, we're stuck leading people on for fear of being rude. That's honestly kind of fucked up, but here we are.
What if it wasn't rude?

The movie "the invention of lying" tries to explore what things would look like if people told the truth.

It honestly is a silly question. Try it out. The primary reason people lie about it is not because it's rude; that is more of a secondary result. The problem is that being honest has worse consequences in a lot of situations.

Because then someone might ask "hey you're rejecting me, why?" and the honest answer is invariably hurtful. "You're ugly" "you've got a whiny voice" "you have horrible body odor" "you talk weird".

And then when you hurt someone, people might want to retaliate. They could do this directly: "frigid bitch!" "Well you're ugly too" "why are you mean/judgemental?", or indirectly, spreading rumors or harming you in some other way.

In short, if you hurt someone they might hurt you back. So instead we try ways to not hurt them.

 

[Penis Drager]

The primary reason people lie about it is not because it's rude; that is more of a secondary result.

I get that. And I think you missed the point of what I was trying to say a little bit:
The question wasn't so much "why aren't we rude?" because the obvious answer is the one you just gave. It's closer to "why is honesty rude?"

There's certainly more and less rude ways of saying anything of course. "You're ugly" is clearly rude because you're saying something negative about them. "I'm not attracted to you" is definitely less rude because you're saying something fairly innocuous about yourself, though it can be taken in a very rude way.

 

[Lemmingwise]

why is honesty rude?

Because the truth hurts. Everybody is in denial. Some more so than others. People committed to knowing truth and expulsing denial (like myself) know very well how painful many truths are to accept.

Denying the truth is easier to live with. By not being truthful you're helping someone live in denial and be spared the direct pain.

 

[Stilgar of Troon]

Honesty isn't in and of itself rude, IMO, but the delivery can be, definitely. Telling someone you aren't attracted to them is always gonna be a little awkward, but it doesn't have to be rude per se, unless you choose to use language/tone that is likely to be perceived that way. Ditto declining to spend time in the company of others.

 

[Penis Drager]

. People committed to knowing truth and expulsing denial (like myself)

Ever considered the possibility that you're in denial about being in denial?

Anyway, more to the point, would this trait be as common as it is if social norms were such that it was considered normal to express your honest opinion in a mature and sensitive manner?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Ever considered the possibility that you're in denial about being in denial?

Of course.

Anyway, more to the point, would this trait be as common as it is if social norms were such that it was considered normal to express your honest opinion in a mature and sensitive manner?

I don't think that trait would be more common because there is still both room for denial "he's wrong" or denial about thing that doesn't come up in everyday conversation.


Also my favorite honest and impolite thing is something I learned from a downie. Whenever you notice it, just loudly say "boring!" when you are bored with proceedings. Pretty funny.

 

[Adolphin]

Being rude makes most people perceive you in an unfavourable light which may be problematic when it comes to cooperation, work, or social peace. Unfortunately, most people do not like being told the truth.

 

[Unassuming Local Guy]

There's two main different types of "politeness".

The one you're talking about is more accurately called "cowardice". You say or do wrong, dumb things because you're scared of the consequences of telling the truth. You're making your life and everyone else's life worse because you're afraid of even the slightest hint of conflict. In that case, you have no one but yourself to blame. If you learned a bit of diplomacy and had a bit of bravery, you could change your situation for the better, but you choose not to. There is no uncomfortable casual situation that cannot be resolved with the right words. So in this case, you're right. Society does need a lot less cowardice.

The other kind, aka the real kind, is just a way to show respect. You don't call your boss "my man", you don't call your parents by the first name, and you don't make jokes at a funeral because those things imply lack of respect. We as a society actually need more of this, because we have barely any. Most conversations on social media immediately devolve into "no, YOU'RE a nazi!" because there's no respect involved. If people were more polite and measured in their arguments, they might get somewhere, but instead they accomplish nothing because they're too busy being assholes to say anything of substance.

People often get the two confused because they think that being respectful is somehow the same thing as being a coward, but it's really not. Being a dick isn't brave, it just makes you look like a psychopath. Refusing to cooperate with anyone but your ideological clone isn't hashtag resisting fascism, it's being a cult member. A simple rule of thumb: are you being polite for your own selfish reasons, or for the betterment of society as a whole? First type bad, second type good.

 

[Baseton Repillé]

Or you could learn how to interpret social cues.

 

[Haim Arlosoroff]

We've all (presumably) been there before: some guy, maybe a coworker, classmate, or some random dude you come across often, is perfectly tolerable, enjoyable even, for chit-chat. But you wouldn't consider him a "friend" and you don't want him to be your friend. He asks to hang out some time and you don't want to. The typical "polite" response, of course, being "sorry, I'm busy" or something to that tune, and you dread him asking you what you're doing if you don't already have an excuse prepared. If asked, you feel compelled to come up with some believable bullshit on the spot when you really want to tell him "I don't want to hang out with you, in particular, ever."
When put that way, it sounds kinda fucked up.

Or you could learn how to interpret social cues.

Pretty much the thread right here.

Its unfortunate that masks and phones are ruining the ability to see facial expressions in kids, we'll have to pay for that later. I once told a retail coworker when I was going to university that I never socialize with coworkers because it takes the job home with me. That I was just here to get paid, and socializing during work hours was the same lying that I make with customers. Its just to get me through the shift and if I socialize with coworkers then I'd be bringing work home with me. Then I mistook one black customer for another in front of them and they didn't want to socialize with me anymore anyways, which made working there actually easier.

 

[Smolrolls]

We wouldn't have this problem if everybody were autistic.

You mean if everybody believed in the dimensional merge?

Not to mention you want to add something to a conversation, especially with people who "can take it and aren't too sensitive". And suddenly your ostracize like a japanese office worker slowly getting his pay cut by his boss, and his co-workers giving him the silent treatment, because he said the "wrong thing".

Oh who do I kid, we live in a society with tough gruff, pull their sleeves up and go "humph, tis but a scratch. time to go back to work" kind of place. We live around people who are mature, wise in their age and totally don't have paper thin skin whose fascade gets easily torn just for saying the WRONG keyword like a google search engine optimization. No truly we live in a golden age that doesn't peel back like chocolate wrapper.