Pre Vactican II Mass -
- Thread starter Driftwood
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They would typically have translation sheets so they could follow along in their own language and Sunday Schools would teach some degree of Latin. Impromptu preaching/sermons outside the formal mass rites would be in the local language.
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The fuck are you talking about?
What I want to know is just when the Trad Cath LARP supplanted the Russian Orthodox LARP.
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The priest faced the altar instead of the parishioners. It was done in Latin. Only men could be involved in liturgical services. It's called the "Tridentine mass" you can watch videos of it on YouTube, some churches still do it.
This part of the service is called a "homily"
It's of some relevance to note orthodox churches have no pews and the audience stands and never kneels during the service, they bow in a standing position. Orthodox mass has always been conducted in local vernacular. The oldest orthodox churches in the world, Ethiopian/Copic set many standards for orthodoxy.
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Trying to keep this as simple as possible with minimal Theological Jargon.....A Pre-Vatican II mass usually means a "Tridentine Mass"; that is a mass in the format and using the rubrics approved by The Council of Trent that was held in the city of the same name between 1545 and 1563.
This mass, which indeed was said in Latin, was approved of because it was deemed to be very expressive and modeled several important Catholic beliefs throughout that other ones didn't emphasize as much as well as for a few other reasons. Practices it included as well as the Latin were that the Sanctuary was sealed off from laypeople, as it still is today in Orthodox churches. The priest would also face away from the people when communion took place and Churches were built in such a manner that the priest as he faced the altar would also be facing east while doing this. Churches today are built irrespective as to which way the priest or altar will be facing.
It should be noted however the Tridentine was by no means the "best" or oldest mass; and several other types of format for the mass still used today (especially in the Eastern Catholic Churches and migrant churches to America) are far, far older than the Tridentine which was only predominant in Europe and Latin America; the main base of the "Roman" rite (Rites are "types" of Catholic Church, usually based on race and culture. If you live in France the majority of Catholics are Roman Rite, whereas in Ukraine many Catholics though not all are Ruthenian Rite).
The vast overwhelming majority of people would not understand the mass and this was the idea. Latin was, and to a degree still is a "magical" language. It is the reserve of the intellectual, ecclesiastical and academic elite. On one level these individuals would understand what was being said and appreciate the theological and philosophical meaning. On a lower level, the plebians would be overwhelmed by the pageantry; colours, silks, grand gestures and scents they would experience in no other aspect of their lives which would create a numinous feeling; a kind of sensual mystery that inspires religious fevour.
Think of it this way; you understand how a clockwork toy works but to a child who doesn't it can seem like a magical experience. That's what the Tridentine was meant to do; the language would clearly mark this period of your day out as something very other, something as unknowable and incomprehensible as the trinity itself, and instill a level of respect that the use of the language of the country didn't as readily do.
Even while the Tridentine was the most commonly used mass, other forms of mass in vernacular languages still took place the entire time it should be noted.
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Anytime new frend.
But yeah, Vatican II tends to be a sore point for a lot of Conservative Catholics and part of me gets why but at the same time some of the hate it gets is unfairly heaped upon the "Novus Ordo" (The new vernacular mass used in Western countries).
Basically, Vatican II came in right in the middle of the 60's when the entire world was changing. The pill had come out, women were getting authority, several Catholic Theocratic autocracies like Ireland and Austria that had long been bastions of power for the Church had started to wobble and it had become socially acceptable for Catholics to disobey authority and possible for them to do it without punishment from their governments.
Vatican II came out with several changes such as no longer forbidding Catholics from marrying Protestants. Some blame Vatican II for "causing" liberalization and more people to marry outside the faith when in actuality people were doing it for years beforehand and Vatican II was just the Church saving face knowing it could no longer enforce these rules.
If she starts complaining about Vatican II being super evil; ask her how she feels about Vatican II being the first and only Catholic council to condemn slavery. That's right, it was a heresy until 1963 to believe that slavery was wrong.
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I think the Trad Cath LARP was always dominant outside of a few circles where the Orthodox LARP was big because of the memes about "based Slavs" in tracksuits swilling vodka.
Are you sure it was a radio recording?
The Civil War was from 1861-1865 and the radio wasn't invented until around 1896. Plus Pius XI was a little kid during the American Civil War.
I'm pretty sure Pius XI talking about the war in retrospect when he expressed his support of the Confederacy.
Nigger you what?
Also, see the early 20th century Catholic Encyclopedia article on slavery, it was condemned by the RCC much earlier than VII.
I would but she has been dead 20 years. I just remember that she was strong strong RC and refused to attend service after vii. She was born in the 1910s.
Age must be getting to me sorry; the original was a letter which you can actually find online signed by himself. The recording came years later, a direct reading of the letter by one of his successors who was still pissy about it and facing problems in Latin America where people were rebelling against the indentured servitude practiced there. Syllabus Errorum (1864) condemned among many other things "Americanism" and personal liberty too and can be linked into this. He was born in 1792 as well, so certainly old enough to comment on it at the time.
But yeah; the letter was sent in 1863 he praised Lee and Davis for being fine upstanding citizens and was the only European sovereign to formally recognize the Confederacy over the North. He ended up in another public slap fight at the time just before the main conflicts with Lincoln as well because he refused to elevate Northern clerics, and instead chose Confederate clergy for positions of authority. It should be telling that no Cardinals were created from Northern Clerics until the Confederacy had been destroyed.
I'm familiar with that article; and I think you already know this is bullshit too. For example, lets look at the most important black saint prior to Vatican II and one you rarely hear about these days; St Martin de Porres. You know, the black man who became a saint explicitly because he was a good black who obeyed his white masters.
Papal decrees including, but not limited to Dum Diversas (1452), along with Romanus Pontifex (1455), Ineffabilis et summi (1497), Dudum pro parte (1516), and Aequum reputamus (1534) all go into quite a lot of detail how enslaving Latinos, Saracens and Blacks is perfectly just in Catholic Theology on the grounds that Catholics have a duty to re-educate unbelievers and purge them if they refuse the faith.
They're certainly not the earliest. The Synod of Elvira (305-6) condemned abolitionism, or if you'd like to go even earlier than that Paul in the New Testament condemns slaves who refuse the authority of their masters.
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Pews are becoming more common, at least in the west. They're typically only used for the homily (we still stand for the liturgy). The subject tends to be a matter of debate, and quite a few of the more scholarly types dislike the addition of pews.
Also, this could just be a quirk in my church, but we tend to kneel during the words of institution.
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I'm also Orthodox and I've been to services in churches with pews, though most places still don't have them. I've done kneeling and bowing. It depends on what liturgical rite the service is and if the priest is monastic.
Fwiw my local orthodox churches have pews and do kneeling. Maybe I'm just used to monastic churches.
I have been to some messes in that messy church. the problem with V2 is that they let fags write it.
They atleast respected god before that, now they are just gay cannibals.
They atleast respected god before that, now they are just gay cannibals.
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The Trent lore thickens.
This is far beyond my feeble knowings. @Shiversblood & @formershroomeryuser can tell us what we really need to know.
I'm a Trad Catholic.
Up until 2019, I was fine with going to the (ahem) ordinary form of the Mass most of the time and visiting the TLM only once in a while. My reasoning was that the NuMass may have been ugly, boring, insipid, and a throwback to 1970's hippy experimentation, but it was still the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Even if no one else properly disposed themselves prior to receiving Communion (fast and all mortal sins confessed), I took pains to do so. In fancier terms, my lex credendi was traditional while my lex orandi was the same as everyone else's.
One thing changed all of that--VirusRegime.
In a flash all the NuChurches and NuMasses shut their doors, as did the Traditional Masses under the diocese. The only clergy who were saying the Mass--and taking great pains and creative means of doing so--were the Society of Saint Pius X, a "rogue" order founded by Abp. Marcel Lefebvre. I would characterize him as a reverse cowboy cop--he did everything by the book but his insane Chief (ahem Paul VI and later John Paul II) insisted on going against every protocol in the book. Anyway--not only did the SSPX offer the Sacraments and the Mass, they preached more fervently than any Catholic order in the country--possibly even the world--against how shutting down the Churches severely harmed the practice of the faith and how putting physical health over sanctifying grace is a dereliction of the bishops' duty.
Relevant homily from a priest (who was also the retreat master for a retreat I attended)
Up until 2019, I was fine with going to the (ahem) ordinary form of the Mass most of the time and visiting the TLM only once in a while. My reasoning was that the NuMass may have been ugly, boring, insipid, and a throwback to 1970's hippy experimentation, but it was still the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Even if no one else properly disposed themselves prior to receiving Communion (fast and all mortal sins confessed), I took pains to do so. In fancier terms, my lex credendi was traditional while my lex orandi was the same as everyone else's.
One thing changed all of that--VirusRegime.
In a flash all the NuChurches and NuMasses shut their doors, as did the Traditional Masses under the diocese. The only clergy who were saying the Mass--and taking great pains and creative means of doing so--were the Society of Saint Pius X, a "rogue" order founded by Abp. Marcel Lefebvre. I would characterize him as a reverse cowboy cop--he did everything by the book but his insane Chief (ahem Paul VI and later John Paul II) insisted on going against every protocol in the book. Anyway--not only did the SSPX offer the Sacraments and the Mass, they preached more fervently than any Catholic order in the country--possibly even the world--against how shutting down the Churches severely harmed the practice of the faith and how putting physical health over sanctifying grace is a dereliction of the bishops' duty.
Relevant homily from a priest (who was also the retreat master for a retreat I attended)
I think what bothers me the most about the effect the pandemic has had on churches is that the same fucking people who would bleat about mental health and connect spirituality to it, to my face, promptly turned the fuck around and screamed for everything to be locked the hell down for COVID-19 including churches. Even without the matter of congregation closures the mental health toll this crap has taken is so immense that it easily outweighs ANYTHING COVID could have done to the population, but the sheer fucking two-faced-ness of these people absolutely blows my mind. "Mental health is SOOOOO important! Spirituality and faith are important components! EXCEPT NOW BECAUSE FUCK YOU." With the devastating effect this pandemic has had on people mentally the LEAST they could have done was allow congregations to carry on normally, ESPECIALLY SINCE THEY WERE LETTING MUSLIMS CONTINUE THEIR GATHERINGS UNCHECKED WHILE CHIDING EVERY OTHER FAITH UNDER THE SUN.
I've always considered the most beautiful and powerful Catholic Liturgy to be the Sarum Rite: the liturgy of medieval England. The Orthodox Church's "Western Rite" is based on it, and the Anglo-Catholic Mass of the Anglican Church bears a resemblance as well:
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