Programming thread -

Skwid

not even god can save us
kiwifarms.net
Just use Visual Studio, it's really good. If you must use something else try Resharper (it's not free IIRC, but I think it's like $60 a year) or Visual Studio Vode (which is a text editor, not an IDE.)
Honestly I have no idea why people are advocating for using a damn webapp to edit their code
 

DNJACK

Part of the EDF communauty
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Teaching yourself a programming langugage and getting a job in it is easy when you have formal training in another programming language.
 

Shoggoth

kiwifarms.net
Teaching yourself a programming langugage and getting a job in it is easy when you have formal training in another programming language.
I found it to be only partially true. Try teaching someone who's only seen ALGOL languages a purely functional language and watch them lose their minds.
 

Marvin

Christorical Figure
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
When you're too uber1337 to use the IDE created by the company that created the language.
In general I don't like using IDEs in the first place. Sure, they're useful much of the time but they also obscure what's going on behind the scenes. So when the IDE does fail, or I need to do something manually (such as via ssh), or if I need to automate something (such as for docker or a CI service), it can sometimes be tricky to map what the IDE is doing internally to the proper CLI command.

I usually just stick to a text editor and makefiles or yarn or whatever.
 

Horrors of the Deep

kiwifarms.net
Kdevelop is generally nice at being IDE that makes things work for me. git integration, reference, highlighting, custom run and build commands, cmake. Didn't need much apart from that.
 
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CharlesBarkley

kiwifarms.net
Let's say I'm a exceptional man child who cant read and despite diving this thread, have a few questions.

1. Do employers care about Microsoft or Cisco certificates? I understand this is more network/etc, but does it add anything to those looking for programming work? Is there any certification or program an employer will jump at that doesnt require school?

2. What is the most lazy laid back programming field that makes a living wage? How does one get into it?

3. Github and the like seems POZ'ed as fuck. Is there a place besides here in the farms where cool kids do review/group?
 

Shoggoth

kiwifarms.net
Let's say I'm a exceptional man child who cant read and despite diving this thread, have a few questions.

1. Do employers care about Microsoft or Cisco certificates? I understand this is more network/etc, but does it add anything to those looking for programming work? Is there any certification or program an employer will jump at that doesnt require school?

2. What is the most lazy laid back programming field that makes a living wage? How does one get into it?

3. Github and the like seems POZ'ed as fuck. Is there a place besides here in the farms where cool kids do review/group?
1. None of the places I've worked for cared about IT certs, but if you go get certificates you completed some MOOC or another it could mean something, but you'll need a portfolio to go with that.
2. haven't seen enough to know, but perhaps COBOL programming. It'll cost your soul and brain damage.
3. Gitlab is pretty based so you can use it without compromising your morals which you will anyway once you realize all the places you can lazy about as a dev are pozzed as fuck
 

Joey Caruso

The Coathanger In Your Man's Vagina
kiwifarms.net
VS is the best IDE for C# hands down. If you think about it, it was like made for it.
Can you elaborate what makes you hate it?
Hate was probably too strong a word, it's more that I had several bad experiences trying to get VS to work with my college projects and generally prefer CodeBlocks for C++ stuff (95% of the stuff I programmed in college was C++, the rest was plain C). Looking back that might have been more to do with the project files themselves, most of the other folks in my classes had similar issues.

Nevertheless, I've been trying to get into some more modern languages since the CS program at my college didn't have me working on much besides C++ command line demos that might've been impressive in 1996. I suppose trying VS (or at the very least VS Code) again on my own wouldn't be a bad idea, although if there were something more similar to CodeBlocks but for C# I'd be all over that. I tried getting MonoDevelop a little while back but that didn't go very far since you need VS to compile it and my license has long since expired lmao
 
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Shoggoth

kiwifarms.net
Hate was probably too strong a word, it's more that I had several bad experiences trying to get VS to work with my college projects and generally prefer CodeBlocks for C++ stuff (95% of the stuff I programmed in college was C++, the rest was plain C). Looking back that might have been more to do with the project files themselves, most of the other folks in my classes had similar issues.

Nevertheless, I've been trying to get into some more modern languages since the CS program at my college didn't have me working on much besides C++ command line demos that might've been impressive in 1996. I suppose trying VS (or at the very least VS Code) again on my own wouldn't be a bad idea, although if there were something more similar to CodeBlocks but for C# I'd be all over that. I tried getting MonoDevelop a little while back but that didn't go very far since you need VS to compile it and my license has long since expired lmao
There aren't "modern" languages, they're all rehashes of ALGOL, ML, LISP, and Prolog. (I don't know where to put Smalltalk and Erlang on that list, but Erlang was originally written in Prolog.)
This is arguably a good thing, since you "really" need to figure out only four ways of thinking.
Sometimes an old language gets a new idea, and by new I mean "some logician and some computer scientist figured it out independently 50 years ago and only now it's in your language". It's nice, but you can keep on putting lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig, so to speak.
You can be interested in frameworks or industry standards or whatever, but is it a big deal?
 

Joey Caruso

The Coathanger In Your Man's Vagina
kiwifarms.net
There aren't "modern" languages, they're all rehashes of ALGOL, ML, LISP, and Prolog. (I don't know where to put Smalltalk and Erlang on that list, but Erlang was originally written in Prolog.)
This is arguably a good thing, since you "really" need to figure out only four ways of thinking.
Sometimes an old language gets a new idea, and by new I mean "some logician and some computer scientist figured it out independently 50 years ago and only now it's in your language". It's nice, but you can keep on putting lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig, so to speak.
You can be interested in frameworks or industry standards or whatever, but is it a big deal?
Not that big of a deal, I've just heard that certain things that are a bit of a pain in the dick with C++ (Memory management, GUIs, etc.) aren't as much of a pain in the dick with C# and the like. Would I be correct in that assumption or have I been misinformed here?
 
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Shoggoth

kiwifarms.net
Not that big of a deal, I've just heard that certain things that are a bit of a pain in the dick with C++ (Memory management, GUIs, etc.) aren't as much of a pain in the dick with C# and the like. Would I be correct in that assumption or have I been misinformed here?
You likely haven't been misinformed, but memory management is also simple in Go, Rust, all the JVM languages, Ocaml, F#, Haskell, all the Lisps, etc.
Give it a shot and see if you have fun, but afterwards, come to the functional side, we have lambdas.
But in seriousness, I think immutability will do more for you than a language which manages your memory.
 
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Yotsubaaa

Eric Ciaramella is the whistleblower
kiwifarms.net
Not that big of a deal, I've just heard that certain things that are a bit of a pain in the dick with C++ (Memory management, GUIs, etc.) aren't as much of a pain in the dick with C# and the like. Would I be correct in that assumption or have I been misinformed here?
I suspect @Shoggoth is more knowledgeable on that than I am so I'll wait to see if he answers that one, (Ninja'd) but I actually have a related question for you Joey: What kind of things were you thinking of programming? (e.g. games? utility software programs? mobile apps? etc).
 
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Joey Caruso

The Coathanger In Your Man's Vagina
kiwifarms.net
You likely haven't been misinformed, but memory management is also simple in Go, Rust, all the JVM languages, Ocaml, F#, Haskell, all the Lisps, etc.
Give it a shot and see if you have fun, but afterwards, come to the functional side, we have lambdas.
But in seriousness, I think immutability will do more for you than a language which manages your memory.
Ah, gotcha. Is there any particular language you'd recommend as being a good example of "the functional side" to start with?

I suspect @Shoggoth is more knowledgeable on that than I am so I'll wait to see if he answers that one, (Ninja'd) but I actually have a related question for you Joey: What kind of things were you thinking of programming? (e.g. games? utility software programs? mobile apps? etc).
At the moment I'm mostly just looking to make some little utility programs. A thing that can separate a long MP3 into separate files based on where it detects silence, another thing that can immediately display which spots on a guitar fretboard will sound good over a particular chord, stuff like that. The copy of Gamemaker Studio that I bought back in high school is alright as far as making games goes (as long as they're 2D and not particularly resource intensive), but it's not particularly well-suited for making tools.
 
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ConcernedAnon

Concerned and hopefully anonymous
kiwifarms.net
You likely haven't been misinformed, but memory management is also simple in Go, Rust, all the JVM languages, Ocaml, F#, Haskell, all the Lisps, etc.
Give it a shot and see if you have fun, but afterwards, come to the functional side, we have lambdas.
But in seriousness, I think immutability will do more for you than a language which manages your memory.
Technically speaking C# has both lambdas and records as well.
Furthermore, C# resembles C++ in many regards. So if you are familiar with C++, C# shouldn't be too much of a shock.

Not that big of a deal, I've just heard that certain things that are a bit of a pain in the dick with C++ (Memory management, GUIs, etc.) aren't as much of a pain in the dick with C# and the like. Would I be correct in that assumption or have I been misinformed here?
With C#, most of the time you don't have to think about memory management, though you will nonetheless want to ration allocations if possible to avoid the cost of GC. GUIs are likewise easier as well, and with VS you can just use the built in Winforms/WPF/UWP designer.
C# is a lot like java really, though it has innumerable improvements over java.

At the moment I'm mostly just looking to make some little utility programs. A thing that can separate a long MP3 into separate files based on where it detects silence, another thing that can immediately display which spots on a guitar fretboard will sound good over a particular chord, stuff like that.
You'd probably need a 3rd party framework to handle MP3s, but the language is certainly capable. If you are intending to whip something up quickly and use it a couple of times a language like Python will probably work better, but if you want something more polished/complete/performant C# would be a good bet.
 
1. Do employers care about Microsoft or Cisco certificates?
No, they care about you being able to do your job and unfortunately in programming there's no qualification that really proves that. Have a portfolio. Also a lot of places will expect you to take a short practical test before they hire you. That's not to say that the certs won't improve your chances of getting your foot in the door and having the interviewer actually spend the time looking at your portfolio or whatever, but they're no substitute for real proof of ability.

2. What is the most lazy laid back programming field that makes a living wage? How does one get into it?
I'd say there isn't really a specific field that's good for laid back. It's much more a question of where you work than what the company does. Maybe PHP/javascript/webshit? Just because it tends to attract the worst programmers, so if you're good you'll look like a superstar even if you laze around for 6 hours a day.

If you're more interested in computer work in general than specifically programming, system administration and security mean a lot less in the way of deadlines though you will have to deal with the occasional massive emergency.

Avoid COBOL. It's what I'd answer if someone asked "I don't care how shit the job is, I just want to make the most cash" COBOL was long out of date in the 90's and it was a flaming pile of shit when it was first released. There are only a few domains (e.g. banking) that still use it because the managers have an "if it ain't broke" attitude and now that all the old COBOL programmers are retiring they're doing the only thing they know how to do and throwing more money at it. You can get entry level 6 figure positions.

Ah, gotcha. Is there any particular language you'd recommend as being a good example of "the functional side" to start with?
I'd say common lisp and haskell. There are two big sides to the functional side and they're the poster child for each one. Lisp is more about homoiconicity, where all data including the program code itself is represented in the same basic manner. Haskell is the group theory side, where it's all about types and the translations between them.

The big thing to understand about programming and paradigms is anything can solve your problem and the measure of what the "best" is what's the easiest to use and understand. This leads to a feedback loop. If you've spent your whole life doing C then it's the best for everything because it's really easy to understand and all the other languages are hard to understand because they're not C. That one time you tried to see what all the fuss was about and use lisp it was nowhere near as good at being C as C was.

This is exacerbated by the fact that more than just being able to solve your problem, most languages can ape the features of other languages. C++ has lambdas, they just kinda suck. So if you go into C++ as someone who uses lambdas all the time it'll work but you'll wonder why you aren't just using a language with good lambdas. A decent way to check if someone is blinded by bias towards their way of doing things is to ask them for domains in which other paradigms do better, if they can't give you some real examples...

In reality all methods have their ups and downs and what's "objectively" the best is heavily dependent upon the domain and, if you're trying to do practical real world stuff, is often outweighed by stuff that has nothing to do with the code at all. If you want to start a business that produces some desktop gui program, C# might be your best choice not because it's the best language but because it's easy to hire C# devs who're good at making desktop guis.

So yeah, if you're new and you don't care about jobs then shop around and see what works for you. If you do care about finding a job, especially if you want to work in some specific domain, then look up which languages are actually used in those domains. Some languages are much easier to find work with than others.
 
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