Québec Separatism - Independence, Autonomy, or Integration

[Gym Leader Elesa]

I apologize if this topic has been covered before, but I wasn't able to find any kind of a thread on it. Should there be one, feel free to do whatever needs to be done with this one (merge it, delete the thread, etc. Not sure what procedure is.)

The question of what to do with Québec has haunted me throughout my life. As someone raised in a region where francophone culture was a minority, and the language was banned and persecuted (I have had relatives imprisoned for speaking French, beaten by the police, you know the stuff), I was always tempted towards thinking that Québec was some sort of paradise where I could be free and the course of history had taken a better turn. That said, as I have gotten older and traveled, I have noticed that the overwhelming sentiment is against Québec's independenc or even autonomy, against the preservation of its culture or language, and against any kind of special status for it at all. I have to ask- why? The United States is to be praised for its violent insurrection of an independence movement, against what was essentially a carbon copy of itself, but Québec, who actually have a separate language, culture, etc are to be condemned for attempting peaceful separation?

Personally, where I once was something of an impassioned firebrand, who favored independence only out of bitterness for my own struggles in the gulf and in the Caribbean, I have come around to recognizing the validity of some unionist/loyalist arguments in the general public. There is a strong case to be made that Québec would be more threatened by America as an independent nation than it would be as even a fully integrated federal subject of Canada. Myself, I favor a sort of confederation, where Canada and Québec share a common currency, military, and permanently open border, but Québec has full authority to dictate every other aspect of its society. I really can't see how anything else is fair or just in any sense. I would certainly be open to other provinces having this arrangement, though, it doesn't have to be unique to Québec.

That said, while the issue is clearly divisive and emotional, especially for francophone cultures in the western hemisphere or some anglo-Canadian circles, I want everyone to feel comfortable challenging me (or others.) I want to learn more about why what I literally considered a black and white issue, a kind of struggle between good and evil, prompts such a diversity of opinions and proposed solutions. I understand we even have some Canadian kiwis, so perhaps we have some Québécois who can share their thoughts?

tl;dr I am Frenchie nationalist faggot hon hon hon Montcalm was the second coming of Christ hon hon hon baguette

 

[autisticdragonkin]

I don't care whether it becomes independent because the biggest change for me would be slightly lower taxes. My perception of Quebec is as welfare leeches who threaten to separate all the time in order to get more support from the federal government which they use to pay for social programs unaffordable to other provinces

tl;dr: Do It Faggot

 

[millais]

Quebec should be their own country and Anglophone Canada should build a wall on the border to stop all the Montreal crustpunks and hipsters from contaminating the rest of Canada. Also Canada would instantly free up a huge amount of government budget if they didn't have to subsidize university tuition for all the Quebecois, they get like the most favorable rates already and they still rioting in the streets over it.

Also I feel you are too generous in describing Quebec as a francophone region, they don't speak real French there. They speak this guttural medieval relic of French that has not incorporated any of the linguistic reforms post 18th century and is much the worse off for it. It's all tabernak this, crissement that, ouai ouai ouai ouai.

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

Also I feel you are too generous in describing Quebec as a francophone region, they don't speak real French there. They speak this guttural medieval relic of French that has not incorporated any of the linguistic reforms post 18th century and is much the worse off for it. It's all tabernak this, crissement that, ouai ouai ouai ouai.

I prefer their dialect and consider it to be superior, as well as more aesthetically pleasing, though I cannot say the linguistic merits of their dialect is really central to the argument. Your other points are interesting, but I am totally fine with them. If the rest of Canada loathing Québec is what it takes to win independence, then by all means! Freedom is still freedom!

I don't care whether it becomes independent because the biggest change for me would be slightly lower taxes. My perception of Quebec is as welfare leeches who threaten to separate all the time in order to get more support from the federal government which they use to pay for social programs unaffordable to other provinces

tl;dr: Do It Faggot

This is an opinion I could definitely live with. If everyone thought like you, Québec would be independent and whether it suffered or prospered on its own, its fate would be in its own hands, exactly as it should be.

 

[millais]

The other big obstacle that everybody has with Quebecois separatism is the fact that a shit ton of people who consider Quebec their home are not Quebecois and are afraid that their interests will not be well represented in an independent Quebec. The First Nations (I think the Cree tribe is the most relevant in this discussion) constitute a pretty sizable minority in Quebec in their own right, not to mention owning a lot of the land in the northern part of the province that is important for Quebec's hydroelectric power. They are firmly against independence, but they and their lands are an integral part of Quebec that would be very difficult to separate from the rest of the province. Same is true of a lot of the Anglophone and mixed Anglo/Francophone cities and towns scattered throughout Quebec province. There is no clear-cut geographic border that separates Upper/Anglo Canada and Lower/French Canada due to 300 years of internal migration. Most urban centers in Quebec have a sizable Anglo population that does not want to leave Canada, and their sentiments are also shared by a lot of the non-white immigrants who live in Quebec. Even though Quebec tried to promote and subsidize immigration of Francophones from North Africa, Southeast Asia, and other places with French language fluency during the '60s and '70s, in the subsequent decades, immigration to Quebec has taken on a strongly international flavor that is not exclusively Francophone in character, and those non-Francophone immigrants feel more Canadian than Quebecois for sure.

 

[Zeorus]

I'm very curious to see where Québécois separatism will go in the coming years (certainly at least because I plan to do my PhD. dissertation on the nationalistic side of Québécois folk music). A lot of the academic studies of the movement I've seen have included comparisons to the independence movement in Scotland (they aren't without their parallels). Would a referendum in, say, 2018, fare better or worse than the referenda in 1980 and 1995?

 

[millais]

Just to clarify, I think it would be pretty cool if Quebec was their own country just to see how ass-blasted the rest of Canada would be and how the Maritimes and PEI would react to being cut off from the rest of Canada, but I think really the longer they wait, the more demographics will be against the side of independence if it comes to a popular referendum.

 

[Goofy Logic]

considering the multicultural backlash that happened when a pro-separatist government got into power during 2012-2014, I doubt QC would last very long if it separated.

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

The other big obstacle that everybody has with Quebecois separatism is the fact that a shit ton of people who consider Quebec their home are not Quebecois and are afraid that their interests will not be well represented in an independent Quebec. The First Nations (I think the Cree tribe is the most relevant in this discussion) constitute a pretty sizable minority in Quebec in their own right, not to mention owning a lot of the land in the northern part of the province that is important for Quebec's hydroelectric power. They are firmly against independence, but they and their lands are an integral part of Quebec that would be very difficult to separate from the rest of the province. Same is true of a lot of the Anglophone and mixed Anglo/Francophone cities and towns scattered throughout Quebec province. There is no clear-cut geographic border that separates Upper/Anglo Canada and Lower/French Canada due to 300 years of internal migration. Most urban centers in Quebec have a sizable Anglo population that does not want to leave Canada, and their sentiments are also shared by a lot of the non-white immigrants who live in Quebec. Even though Quebec tried to promote and subsidize immigration of Francophones from North Africa, Southeast Asia, and other places with French language fluency during the '60s and '70s, in the subsequent decades, immigration to Quebec has taken on a strongly international flavor that is not exclusively Francophone in character, and those non-Francophone immigrants feel more Canadian than Quebecois for sure.

This is a pretty good point, I could definitely see how this could pose real long term problems for the independence movement. Do you think, however, that an arrangement could be worked out with First Nations peoples on a provincial level, in a sort of confederation as mentioned in my OP? Perhaps the Cree would find themselves more amicable to greater Québécois autonomy if they were to receive greater autonomy in their own communities. Perhaps a devolution of power in the province (or provinces) is exactly what such a naturally diverse country like Canada needs in order to resolve these internal disputes.

 

[Phil Ken Sebben]

This stuff still going on? The last time they tried they lost a referendum and even then it was only with the proviso that they keep the money, passports and all the good things they get from Canada while being totally "independent" for everything else. In other words they wanted their cake and not only eat it but eat everybody else's cake as well.

If they leave then Ottawa is going to get rid of all the crown corporations that exist there and relocate them to other parts of the country. Quebec will lose a ton of money in terms of Government grants, payouts and tax breaks. They might even need to pay back what they had received originally. This isn't like moving out of your parent's place but still having the key so you can go over there to do laundry, watch cable TV and raid their fridge when you feel like it. If they want to separate, they have to separate completely. They can't just call the shots and say they're keeping everything but are totally separate now guys.

Their economy can't support themselves. Eventually they'd have to become a protectorate of the US like Puerto Rico or Guam.

In the end, nothing really would change except that English would become more prevalent and whatever "culture" they have in Quebec would be destroyed completely within a few generations.

Spoiler: slight powerlevel

I have relatives in Quebec, half my family to be exact. Literally I can trace my lineage back to some of the first settlers there in the mid 1600's. Et aussi je parle Francais.

I don't know anybody whether it be a family member, friend or acquaintance there who wants to separate. Take that as you will but true separatists are rare.

 

[Tranhuviya]

Is everyone forgetting the FLQ?

 

[Goofy Logic]

Is everyone forgetting the FLQ?

The FLQ was a Soviet-backed terrorist militia working under the guise of being a separatist group. They weren't very effective at it.

 

[Phil Ken Sebben]

Is everyone forgetting the FLQ?

They blew up a couple mailboxes, the stock exchange and kidnapped a couple politicians. Then Trudeau the Elder said, "fuck this shit", declared martial law and sent in the army.

They're not so much forgotten as nobody really cares. All this did give rise to a huge surge of nationalism in the 80's and 90's but they've fallen back on just being "meh" about the whole thing now.

 

[Randy Lahey]

superior

>superior
>anything in Quebec

 

[Falcon Lord]

>superior
>anything in Quebec

The only things worse than Frenchmen are wannabe Frenchmen.

 

[Randy Lahey]

Quebec is the smelly kid at school that nobody wants to play with and has to wear a hockey helmet so he doesn't hurt himself.

 

[女鬼]

A number of my countrymen believe in Québec independence because they support other Francophones or just because the only thing they remember about Québec is de Gaulle's proclamation. There's also the ignorant ones who don't even know Québec is an issue because they believe the whole of Canada speaks French.

Personally, I'm not too fond of regionalist movements as someone who leans toward jacobinism and thus prefers centralised power.

It always makes me laugh when Québecois whine about "being denied their Frenchness by the French". They have a completely different culture, speak a bastardised, nigh-unintelligible version of the language and more importantly, Québec hasn't been part of France in any way, shape or form since fucking 1763.
Maybe it's time to get over it.

 

[TowinKarz]

Just to clarify, I think it would be pretty cool if Quebec was their own country just to see how ass-blasted the rest of Canada would be and how the Maritimes and PEI would react to being cut off from the rest of Canada, but I think really the longer they wait, the more demographics will be against the side of independence if it comes to a popular referendum.

That's one thing I wonder about too. If Quebec was smaller and placed firmly in the Maritimes, or where BC is now, would there be more support for independence? Or less resistance to letting go? Because as it is, placing a new sovereign nation where current Quebec is would essentially mean any east-west commerce would have to navigate through a foreign country, either them or the US, with all the red tape, clashing jurisdictions and taxes that entails.

I wonder if their location is scuttling them long term? As if the US state of Pennsylvania tried to become independent. Even if they're in the bottom 1/3 of states in terms of revenue, not a major producer of strategic goods, and wouldn't be "missed" on paper, the one thing they do have is location, location, location. Anything trying to go from the Northeast metroplex of NY/Boston to the midwest hubs like St Louis/Chicago HAS to go through there, if you suddenly needed to pay taxes and have paperwork stamped to cross what's barely a border at all (except for the notable increase in potholes) , imagine THAT nightmare for the greater interstate commerce.

Now, not being Canadian, and not having my finger on the pulse of the movement, I have no idea if any of this is even close to the real picture, but I'm sure it's something the government has considered.

How much support IS there for another 1995 referendum? Which, IIRC, only missed by a single percentage point? At least in the stats that made US papers at the time.

 

[Gym Leader Elesa]

They have a completely different culture, speak a bastardised, nigh-unintelligible version of the language and more importantly

Also I feel you are too generous in describing Quebec as a francophone region, they don't speak real French there. They speak this guttural medieval relic of French that has not incorporated any of the linguistic reforms post 18th century and is much the worse off for it. It's all tabernak this, crissement that, ouai ouai ouai ouai.

This absolutely fascinates me. I am not necessarily going to argue a position, I just never quite understood this. You never hear such vehemence about regional dialects of English or most other languages. I guess it's a power dynamic- even though a Québec/France comparison is basically the same as an American/British comparison- America has more money and power, so they speak a "real" dialect of English. I suppose it is also wrapped up in old colonial prejudices, much in the same way that African American English is not viewed as legitimate despite being, well, totally legitimate, from a linguistic and communicative standpoint. I wonder how Haitian Creole is viewed in this linguistic hierarchy?

At the end of the day it seems a completely arbitrary and baseless prejudice, but that's an imperialist inferiority complex for you. "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy" as they say.

 

[女鬼]

This absolutely fascinates me. I am not necessarily going to argue a position, I just never quite understood this. You never hear such vehemence about regional dialects of English or most other languages. I guess it's a power dynamic- even though a Québec/France comparison is basically the same as an American/British comparison- America has more money and power, so they speak a "real" dialect of English. I suppose it is also wrapped up in old colonial prejudices, much in the same way that African American English is not viewed as legitimate despite being, well, totally legitimate, from a linguistic and communicative standpoint. I wonder how Haitian Creole is viewed in this linguistic hierarchy?

At the end of the day it seems a completely arbitrary and baseless prejudice, but that's an imperialist inferiority complex for you. "A language is a dialect with an army and a navy" as they say.

This linguistical hierarchy is probably stronger when it comes to French than it is with English, because the French language has rigidly defined official standards: there's an official body, the Académie Française, that is considered the authority on what is True & Honest French.
The reason why Québecois is seen as a bastardised version of the language is that it manages to be both antiquated and heavily anglicised, with grammar and syntax that considerably deviate from the norm.
Differences between forms of European French are usually about the vocabulary. In Québécois, the sentence structure itself is modified, with a lof of Anglicisms.

Other local variations of French don't suffer from the same image. For one thing, differences aren't so considerable: European Frech speakers have no problem communicating with each others, and a Frenchman will be perfectly able to comprehend people from Belgium, Switzerland or most people from Francophone countries in Africa.
On the other hand, Québecois will pose difficulties to most Francophones, and sometimes can be nearly impossible to understand depending on the speaker. I'm not joking; Interviews with Québecois speakers often have subtitles when they air on French television.

Despite all of this, Québecois somehow consider themselves and their language to be French and somehow act like standard-bearers of Francophony. I can't think of any other French-speaking types with this pretention. (BTW, Créole is usually considered a separate language and not French. ) Considering Francophones do tend to be very proud of our language, it can be a bit annoying to see people tout themselves as faithful defenders of the French language when said language deviates significantly from mainstream French.
Mind you, the general reaction to québécois isn't outright hostile, just condescending.

Note that this applies to the language, not the people. Québec is generally viewed sympathetically in France.