Red Letter Media -

Idiocy Abroad

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Well maybe Star Wars was always kind of shit and just because spiteful people did the sequels doesn't mean that the rest of Star Wars that they didn't touch was any good.
This.

Star Wars as a whole really only had one good movie (ANH), one really good movie (ESB), one mediocre/ok movie (RotJ), and the rest of them are varying degrees of bad. I still love the originals, but people expect way too much out of the franchise given its track record.
 

Pokemonquistador2

Electric Boogaloo
kiwifarms.net
This.

Star Wars as a whole really only had one good movie (ANH), one really good movie (ESB), one good movie that had a little too much kiddie pandering in it. (RotJ), and the rest of them are varying degrees of bad.
FTFY

To me, the issue with the Prequels wasn't them being bad, it was the fact that the Original SW series was written so that it needed to be watched first. A New Hope needs to be your introduction to the series, otherwise none of the dramatic reveals made in Empire Strikes Back have any weight to them, since the Prequel Series spoils the hell out of them. (I believe the original numbering of the Original Series as 4, 5 and 6 was a gimmick to make the franchise look more like a movie serial, and that Lucas had no intention of making the Prequel Series when he originally finished the OT.) The Prequel Series also ends on a downer and does nothing to foreshadow the optimism of the Original Trilogy. RLM called this out when they asked "Is the story of the Prequels one that needed to be told?" The answer is, of course, no. The only reason it was told was because George Lucas needed a 7th Beach House and wanted to relive his glory days as a relevant and cutting edge filmmaker.
 

feral cat #6385

Practiced Social Distancing before it was cool.
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I think this review plays better for people who have seen Picard. I haven't watched any nuTrek since the JJ Abrams abortions, so I'm out of the loop. Trek has been on a downhill slide since best of both worlds. There were gems afterwards, but nothing ever got better than that two-parter.

And that was a really long time ago. It's time to let go.
Nah. Trek hit its stride with Best of Both Worlds and was solid through Deep Space 9 with lots of great episodes. Even at their worst Voyager and Enterprise are better than anything JJ and his disciples shit out.

I don't think so. People still cosplay as characters from the TOS or TNG era.
Looking at the statistics for xer demographic, a red shirt would be more appropriate.
 
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RomanesEuntDomus

May contain nuts.
True & Honest Fan
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...until I realized I didn't have to care. I don't have to acknowledge the ~new canon~ that Lucas put out.
I don't care, I really don't. And I certainly don't consider it canon. After TLJ, I spent my time laughing at the incompetence of Star Wars being run by trained monkeys. It's a money-printing machine that they threw a wrench in, just to spite a nebulous concept of toxic fans, a nemesis that they themselves created in the process by being assholes.

Disney can't make me watch or acknowledge these movies, but as long as they own the rights, I have absolutely no confidence in them not shitting the bed with any future project. I have absolutely no trust in their stuff and even if it is good like Mandalorian (can't tell, never watched it), I am still expecting a big letdown along the ride. So I won't be able to enjoy any future stuff, even if it turns out promising, since these fools have already shown that they can't handle this franchise without being hateful asshats towards their core audience for no discernable reason. I couldn't enjoy a future installment as light-hearted as I used to enjoy the OT, since to me, it's just a matter of time until some dangerhair gets the ears of some CEO and we get another pail of shit thrown at the screen.

And as long as these terrible movies are canon, every future project is part of this flawed, cynical, nonsensical world and I don't enjoy that. So I won't waste any more time with it, which is the reason why I don't watch Mandalorian, even though it is said to be really good.

I don't waste time thinking about the prequels and the sequels being shit just didn't impact me very much. It's my personal experience, and opinion, that being so utterly fixated on the sequels/prequels that they ruin your enjoyment of Star Wars is a sign of obsession and a lack of maturity.
It's not a fixation or obsession to watch something and then be reminded of the bad end it will take - it's not like I am constantly frowning and mumbling to myself about how they totally raped my childhood by making Luke a loser, but it does take away from the fun a little, when you know the pay-off will suck.
That's why I brought up GoT specifically. Watching snippets of the first few seasons I realized that with every plot-thread and every character, I thought to myself "Oh right, this will lead nowhere" or "This will have a really stupid conclusion". A large part of GoT was the mystery, the intrigues, the scheming and so on, you wanted to see how it will all pan out and who will end up on top. But it turned out that the execution and the pay-offs are so weak at the end that the build-up to it feels hollow now. It's hard to get invested in Tyrion's fate when you know how in the end, he'll just be a dimwit, outsmarted by fucking Sansa of all people.
It has become like one of JJ Abrams mystery boxes, It's hard to become interested in the contents of the box, when you already know it's empty. In GoT it's a bigger issue than in SW, which is why you can actually say the end ruined the whole series, cause you can't choose to "stop" at a certain point to consider it canon, without the story ending midway without a conclusion. In SW, you can do that just fine with the OT, since it's a story with a conclusion and everything later on can't take that away unless you allow it to - that idea isn't new to anyone in this thread, you know.

But when I now think about the joy I had with the OT, there's that small nagging part of me that remembers what they have turned Luke into in the new canon, and that's a bit annoying, not cause I have to treat it as "fact", but rather cause every movie going forward will treat it as "fact".
I'm not "mad" at Star Wars for having bad movies in the franchise (that hasn't been a new concept since the infamous Holiday Special), I am saddened that we lost so much potential and I am reminded of that when I watch the OT now. And it is especially sad to think that SW wasn't ruined unintentially by incompetence, but by malicious intention and contempt.

edit: I think a less wordy version and metaphor that sums it up nicely: Even if I watch the OT now, I can't quite get the foul taste of the sequels and the sheer hatred for it out of my mouth that the sequels left there. /edit

Doesn't mean Star Wars is ruined for me forever, doesn't make the old trilogy ruined or unwatchable, but there is still going to be that small kernel of knowledge what is now considered canon and will remain canon for the foreseeable future.
Frankly, the Special Edition has done more damage to my enjoyment of Star Wars than what Disney has done, since that actively diminished the quality of the OT itself.

I'm not trying to be a jerk about how you feel but it's frankly ridiculous to waste so many internet tears on movies. Star Wars is not a religion and it doesn't fill your bank account. They're entertainment. Some of them are better than others.
You might be surprised to hear that at no point was I losing sleep over bad movies ever in my life or shedding "internet tears".
And you might be surprised even further to hear that entertainment that's no longer entertaining ceases to be entertainment, so that entire platitude is moronic.
Does that mean I want everyone to shit their bed in red-hot anger over a shitty movie made by spiteful people all night every night? Nope.
But when you watch an old movie and know that the ones now holding the rights to it have used their power to shit on everything that you enjoyed in the original movie and do their best to showcase their contempt with every installment, one can't help but feel a little sad at times, since this is now the new course this franchise will take.

But sometimes you have to step back, look at the Extended Universe and all of the horrid badly written trash that Kevin J Anderson shit out or the New Jedi Order or that Knights of the Old Republic II was an unfinished game and you realize...

Well maybe Star Wars was always kind of shit and just because spiteful people did the sequels doesn't mean that the rest of Star Wars that they didn't touch was any good.

Don't forget that before Disney came Lucas, trying to destroy the Library of Congress's copy of Star Wars because it didn't fit his artistic vision. George Lucas raped my childhood and the fact that people are trying to cover up this violent rape just because they don't like the sequels is frankly ludicrous.
I've never read a single SW book or comic, as far as I'm concerned, they aren't even canon to me, simply cause I don't have the slightest clue what is happening in them. So I can't say anything about their quality of lack thereof. I've watched Star Wars maybe once in almost 2 decades, cause I don't own a non-Special Edition, so I'm not even a huge fan of SW in general. I like it a lot, but I wouldn't consider myself a fan, really. But I do recognize greatness when I see it and Star Wars, to me, managed to catch lightning in a bottle and I admire it for that and I am disgusted to see people deliberately ruining it, just to spite their imaginary boogeyman of WHITE PATRIARCHY.
 
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Stab You in the Back

kiwifarms.net
A New Hope needs to be your introduction to the series, otherwise none of the dramatic reveals made in Empire Strikes Back have any weight to them, since the Prequel Series spoils the hell out of them.
The only thing the prequels impact is the cheap twist reveal that everybody already fucking knows. Nothing about Luke's journey is impacted or diminished by what happens in the prequels.


The Prequel Series also ends on a downer and does nothing to foreshadow the optimism of the Original Trilogy.

No foreshadowing.
 

Replicant Sasquatch

Do Lolcows Dream of Electric Hedgehog Pokemon?
kiwifarms.net
The only thing the prequels impact is the cheap twist reveal that everybody already fucking knows. Nothing about Luke's journey is impacted or diminished by what happens in the prequels.





No foreshadowing.
Literally the only emotion RotS is capable of illiciting is relying on cheap pathos from "foreshadowing" a far better movie made nearly 30 fucking years prior.

And yes it impacts the OT. Like wants to be a Jedi but why would he when the PT paints them as joyless autistic jerks who think love makes you evil? Why should we care about Obi-wan's sadness when his "friend" was just a bitter sperg who did nothing but argue with him and talk shit behind his back?

At this point, I'm convinced the only people who like the Prequels were just extremely young when they first watched them and were hypnotized by John Williams' score.
 

Mola Ram

Self Righteous Ego Bastard Asshole
True & Honest Fan
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K and what's the point in making Anakin a bratty teenager?

That's what I'm talking about. The PT is full of pointless characterization changes which do nothing but undercut the sincerity of the original films.
What was the point of making him a child to begin with? The clear implication in the original Star Wars was that Obi-Wan met Anakin when they were both adults.
 

Replicant Sasquatch

Do Lolcows Dream of Electric Hedgehog Pokemon?
kiwifarms.net
What was the point of making him a child to begin with? The clear implication in the original Star Wars was that Obi-Wan met Anakin when they were both adults.
"For over a thousand generations the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic"
Actually they were a group of autistic thugs who kidnapped children and were useless at running wars
"Vader was seduced by the dark side of the Force"
Actually he was duped into it by an old wizard who exploited the heretofore unknown and unbearably convenient Jedi anti-love rule.
"And he was a good friend"
All we did was argue. Also I met him when he was ten and I thought he was a dangerous liability who we should've abandoned to a life of slavery.
 

stuffandthings

Inflammatory Metacommentary
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I guess it's just a matter of perspective then. For me Star Wars was over when the prequels hit. That's when I realized Star Wars was ruined. It was something I wasted a lot of time nagging at internally as a young person. It made the prequel RLM reviews a lot funnier and more cogent to me but it was still something that bothered me...

...until I realized I didn't have to care. I don't have to acknowledge the ~new canon~ that Lucas put out. It doesn't have to matter to me and when that hit me I was horrified by the amount of time that I wasted whining to myself about how STAR WARS IS RUINED just because the prequels were shit.

After I told myself to stop being a whiny bitch and stop feeling sorry for myself, my joy for Star Wars returned. I don't waste time thinking about the prequels and the sequels being shit just didn't impact me very much. It's my personal experience, and opinion, that being so utterly fixated on the sequels/prequels that they ruin your enjoyment of Star Wars is a sign of obsession and a lack of maturity. I'm not trying to be a jerk about how you feel but it's frankly ridiculous to waste so many internet tears on movies. Star Wars is not a religion and it doesn't fill your bank account. They're entertainment. Some of them are better than others.

Star Wars is important to me and it'll always be in my heart. But sometimes you have to step back, look at the Extended Universe and all of the horrid badly written trash that Kevin J Anderson shit out or the New Jedi Order or that Knights of the Old Republic II was an unfinished game and you realize...

Well maybe Star Wars was always kind of shit and just because spiteful people did the sequels doesn't mean that the rest of Star Wars that they didn't touch was any good.

Don't forget that before Disney came Lucas, trying to destroy the Library of Congress's copy of Star Wars because it didn't fit his artistic vision. George Lucas raped my childhood and the fact that people are trying to cover up this violent rape just because they don't like the sequels is frankly ludicrous.
There are certain vigorous IP's that will never be RUINED FOREVER by some crappy material. If you're willing to just toss the bad, something good will come down the pipeline later. I'm a Transformers fan, and RUINED FOREVER is the number one meme in the fandom. If you're like, a Charlie's Angels fan, then yeah, a bad movie might kill that franchise for the future. But Star Wars is unkillable.

The prequels were bad, but they gave us The Clone Wars show, which is flawed but some of my favorite Star Wars storytelling. But of course The Clone Wars then gave us Rebels, which was not so good. Prequels also indirectly gave us Knights of the Old Republic, and Backstroke To the West. Glorious additions to the canon. Good and bad, tumbling down the pipeline mixed for the fans to sort, ever since the inception of the IP.

But I, and lots of people, ENJOY complaining about bad Star Wars. It's cathartic to get mad about something that doesn't matter. I'd rather spend hours arguing about TLJ than hours arguing about gun control or how to fix Iraq. Geeks and Trump's Chosen People have that in common, part of our engagement with 'canon' is getting into large groups and dissecting and arguing about it. It's an almost inextricable part of any 'practicing' fan.
 

RomanesEuntDomus

May contain nuts.
True & Honest Fan
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Literally the only emotion RotS is capable of illiciting is relying on cheap pathos from "foreshadowing" a far better movie made nearly 30 fucking years prior.

And yes it impacts the OT. Like wants to be a Jedi but why would he when the PT paints them as joyless autistic jerks who think love makes you evil? Why should we care about Obi-wan's sadness when his "friend" was just a bitter sperg who did nothing but argue with him and talk shit behind his back?

At this point, I'm convinced the only people who like the Prequels were just extremely young when they first watched them and were hypnotized by John Williams' score.
And to add to that: I know someone who knew precisely nothing about Star Wars, who watched the movies in chronological order and he was baffled that the movie was tiptoeing around the issue of Luke being Vaders son. To him, it ruined the reveal. That might not apply to every person who hasn't seen the movie yet, most know about the twist, I grant you, but it's still not a good way to handle things. With the assumption of people already knowing about the OT, you might as well argue there is no point to make the Prequels, cause we already know how everything turns out ultimately in the OT (until the ST comes along and decides it's perfectly possible to survive being thrown into a plasma generator shaft and then blow up and crashland on a moon...).

The problem isn't so much that it gives away the twist, but rather that it didn't even bother to attempt to come up with something clever to retain the twist. The movie just doesn't care...
They should have been more clever about this.
Actually they were a group of autistic thugs who kidnapped children and were useless at running wars
They were also useless at guarding justice. In a way, they seem to reinforce injustice with their politics.

Overall, the worldbuilding of the prequels is really, really bad at times and it managed to make Jedi look like incompetent idiots.
 
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RumblyTumbly

kiwifarms.net
(I believe the original numbering of the Original Series as 4, 5 and 6 was a gimmick to make the franchise look more like a movie serial, and that Lucas had no intention of making the Prequel Series when he originally finished the OT.)
Exactly. I remember reading somewhere that the original idea was to recapture seeing an old serial in the theater if you had missed the first few and you're coming in at the middle.

I think Lucas had an idea of what the backstory was and using A New Hope as episode 4 was just a way to show that there was a backstory that led to these events.

I never felt like we needed to see those events play out on screen. Everything that we need to know is adequately explained in IV, V, and VI.
 

wtfNeedSignUp

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Hearing the Plinkett review of ST, the moment that was most memorable to me was the "Harry Potter Sex Toy" that functioned as plot needed deus ex machine. After all the BS "I fucking love science" that modern entertainment shovels, it really shows that in the end of the day the same people treat science as essentially magic (with a separation to good and bad magic) rather than actual something with rules.

The review itself was 10/10 and probably ruined any likability I had towards Patrick Stewart, who has Brexit Derangement Syndrome and illusions of grandeur that is hypocritical when it is obvious he doesn't respect the source material that most people know him from (and I really hope his refusal to wear a uniform doesn't come from some anti-military insanity).

Also it's plain weird how, despite all the progress in technology and spread of knowledge, popular sci fi actually goes backwards in terms of world building, philosophy and internal consistency.
 

Twinkletard

True & Honest Fan
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Nah. Trek hit its stride with Best of Both Worlds and was solid through Deep Space 9 with lots of great episodes. Even at their worst Voyager and Enterprise are better than anything JJ and his disciples shit out.
Not saying DS9 wasn't solid, just that BoBW was the peak, the jump-the-shark moment where ST never was able to surpass quality wise. I can't think of a single episode or two-parter that managed to pull off what that storyline did afterwards. Wrath of Khan was better, for sure. Maybe Undiscovered Country. But everything after those episodes couldn't get the viewership and fans hyped like that again. DS9 was a slower burn, very well-written and acted show. VOY, and even ENT had their moments, but I was never that eager to see a show's story resolve itself like that ever again.

I remember the summer of 1990 was agonizing waiting for the second part of the cliffhanger to conclude.

As far as nutrek, I like how plinkett compared it to a bunch of drunk and stoned teenagers going down to their dad's basement to fuck up his meticulously built train set. Very appropriate.
 

Replicant Sasquatch

Do Lolcows Dream of Electric Hedgehog Pokemon?
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They were also useless at guarding justice. In a way, they seem to reinforce injustice with their politics.

Overall, the worldbuilding of the prequels is really, really bad at times and it managed to make Jedi look like incompetent idiots.
The hivemind on /tv/ viciously hates the ST for being leftist ((subversion)) of heroic ideals yet vigorously defend the Prequels. Movies which take the established concept of heroic knights adhering to the old codes of justice and honor, then turn it all upside down and retcon them into incompetent clowns blinded by their own pride.
 

RomanesEuntDomus

May contain nuts.
True & Honest Fan
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The review itself was 10/10 and probably ruined any likability I had towards Patrick Stewart, who has Brexit Derangement Syndrome and illusions of grandeur that is hypocritical when it is obvious he doesn't respect the source material that most people know him from (and I really hope his refusal to wear a uniform doesn't come from some anti-military insanity).
I have to admit, for me it's the same... I used to like Patrick Stewart a lot, but much like George Takei, he's gone down the road of insanity based on his holier-than-though morals.
I'm not even in favor of Brexit and I can't stand this drivel. Thank fuck STD wasn't about Klingexit or some shit, where Klingons decide to leave the Federation to join a red-capped Ferengi-Mogul with tiny hands to genocide space mexicans or something. And now that I've said that, I expect it to be the plot for the next show they'll shit out.

The only sad thing about all this is that Rich most likely won't come back to make another re:View episode about that trainwreck.
 

Mola Ram

Self Righteous Ego Bastard Asshole
True & Honest Fan
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I used to like Patrick Stewart a lot, but much like George Takei, he's gone down the road of insanity based on his holier-than-though morals.
The Patrick Stewart thing reminds me a lot of Christopher Reeve. Reeve was, by all accounts, one of the nicest, most professional actors imaginable in Hollywood. Always dedicated, always kind, always willing to lend a hand to up and coming actors. He was getting tired of playing Superman, and so to lure him into another installment the producers promised him a lot of creative control. The result was Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, one of the absolute worst movies ever made, so bad it killed Superman as a franchise for something like 15 years. Preachy, one-sided, cartoonish, all for an anti-nuclear message about as childish and naive as one could imagine. (The bad guy is called Nuclear Man, for god's sake.)

Just because an actor is nice or talented or professional doesn't mean they're going to have a functioning brain in their head when it comes to story.
 

Starscreams Cape

Read my posts in his voice
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I'll take Lucas' fuddy-duddy, "it rhymes", hopeful style over the cynical, nihilistic, woke bullshit of the sequels. Good lord, the prequels were about a war for two films and climaxed with the ascendancy of Vader and yet they are still somehow more optimistic. Wooden acting, juvenile characters like Jar Jar aside, I don't care. Hell, even The Phantom Menace is better than any of the Disney pictures except for perhaps Rogue One. And let's be honest, the female lead in R1 was a terrible actress.
 

wtfNeedSignUp

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The Patrick Stewart thing reminds me a lot of Christopher Reeve. Reeve was, by all accounts, one of the nicest, most professional actors imaginable in Hollywood. Always dedicated, always kind, always willing to lend a hand to up and coming actors. He was getting tired of playing Superman, and so to lure him into another installment the producers promised him a lot of creative control. The result was Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, one of the absolute worst movies ever made, so bad it killed Superman as a franchise for something like 15 years. Preachy, one-sided, cartoonish, all for an anti-nuclear message about as childish and naive as one could imagine. (The bad guy is called Nuclear Man, for god's sake.)

Just because an actor is nice or talented or professional doesn't mean they're going to have a functioning brain in their head when it comes to story.
I disagree with the comparison because at least Superman 4 is still in line with the character and theme of Superman, which is optimism and belief in human kind. As opposed to nu-ST which is completely contrary to the ideas of discovery and optimism that were in the original ST and makes the character of Picard space jesus rather than a person with his own biases.
Also, as preachy as the message of Superman 4 it is still valid (if naïve) idea. While STP's message (from the video at least) seems to be of Elitism of "the common man should be told what to do because he is too racist and stupid to know otherwise".
 
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