Removing monuments of the Confederacy: Yay or Nay? -

Replicant Sasquatch

Do Lolcows Dream of Electric Hedgehog Pokemon?
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Did you even read the rest of my post?
Did you even read mine? You asked what counts as "shitlordery". I pointed out a wave of dumb national pride in a war you lost because you're outraged at equal rights is a good metric. There's a difference between respecting freedom fighters and glorifying a time when niggers were kept in their place. The Confederates weren't the former, and their vocal descendants pretend otherwise as they might really only care about the latter.
 

Commander Keen

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Did you even read mine? You asked what counts as "shitlordery". I pointed out a wave of dumb national pride in a war you lost because you're outraged at equal rights is a good metric. There's a difference between respecting freedom fighters and glorifying a time when niggers were kept in their place. The Confederates weren't the former, and their vocal descendants pretend otherwise as they might really only care about the latter.
I’ve never lost a war because I’ve never fought a war, but I’m glad I now know who to turn to when I need clarification on what is just when it comes to means. I’ll inform parliament.
 

Mr. 0

god im not good at computer how did this get here
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This is local issue that should be decided by community.
The community might get drowned out by the easily offended, who tend to be the loudest and are indulged just to shut them up.
 
Did you even read mine? You asked what counts as "shitlordery". I pointed out a wave of dumb national pride in a war you lost because you're outraged at equal rights is a good metric. There's a difference between respecting freedom fighters and glorifying a time when niggers were kept in their place. The Confederates weren't the former, and their vocal descendants pretend otherwise as they might really only care about the latter.
So... you believe everyone in the confederate south owned slaves? Do you believe the black soldiers in the confederate army were fighting to have black people kept in their place? Do you believe the south africans who want to kick out the white farmers are doing so because they want whitey to stay in his place, or do you think maybe there might be more to it?

Local pride is a thing. People defend their way of life. Why is the american civil war the only time in history one side was right and one side was wrong? Do you think all the southerners were just treated fairly after the war?

I'm not saying all this to say their reasoning was correct, but it's way more complicated than "Whitey>blackey" because you're fooling yourself if you don't think the north wanted that too.
 

Krokodil Overdose

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If we're going to talk about the symbolism of things, how about the symbolism implicit in the Maoist desecration of cultural artifacts for the purpose of publicly humiliating and stigmatizing disfavored groups?
 
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Replicant Sasquatch

Do Lolcows Dream of Electric Hedgehog Pokemon?
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So... you believe everyone in the confederate south owned slaves? Do you believe the black soldiers in the confederate army were fighting to have black people kept in their place? Do you believe the south africans who want to kick out the white farmers are doing so because they want whitey to stay in his place, or do you think maybe there might be more to it?

Local pride is a thing. People defend their way of life. Why is the american civil war the only time in history one side was right and one side was wrong? Do you think all the southerners were just treated fairly after the war?

I'm not saying all this to say their reasoning was correct, but it's way more complicated than "Whitey>blackey" because you're fooling yourself if you don't think the north wanted that too.
No, not everyone owned slaves in the South. But the people who did own slaves were responsible for the secession and the resulting attacks on Union army bases which started the war. Eradicating slavery was not the end goal of the war but preserving it absolutely was the main reason for it. I'm not going to extend sympathy for a wannabe nation which quite explicitly and without shame founded itself on the belief owning humans as chattel laborers was a God-given right. And you're pretty foolish yourself if you think the majority of white Southerners had any interest or even indifference towards abolishing slavery.

I can respect the men who fought for the Confederacy while still acknowledging their chosen regime was built on preserving an immoral institution. The Southern Freedom Fighter is a meme pushed by apologists and self-hating Yankee teenagers.
 

Save the Loli

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So... you believe everyone in the confederate south owned slaves? Do you believe the black soldiers in the confederate army were fighting to have black people kept in their place? Do you believe the south africans who want to kick out the white farmers are doing so because they want whitey to stay in his place, or do you think maybe there might be more to it?
You know West Virginia, which revolted from Virginia because they opposed secession? Or East Tennessee (which gave the US Andrew Johnson, probably our worst president ever), which tried to secede from the CSA but were violently occupied by the Union? The economy there was based on growing grains so they could feed the vast plantations of slaves in Virginia and the Carolinas so they could breed slaves.

Also, black soldiers in the Confederate Army were an underutilized thing. Brazil did it way better against Paraguay in the same timeframe (see the War of the Triple Alliance).

In the end, the Civil War was a rich man's war, and that's why many Southerners got fed up with it and revolted against the CSA. The rich Southerners understood it, so constructed the narrative of the "Lost Cause" and built the "New South" in response.

I thought this was funny
It's true, but consider that a bunch of Indian leaders get monuments and places named after them, so maybe it's all in the American tradition.
 

The Nothingness

The one with no body!
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Resurrecting this dead thread because of recent events.

One question that I've pondered is do other countries that have had civil wars in their past acknowledge them in some degree either with a monument or historical spot that is part of the country's tour guide? When you look at this list there has been a fuckton throughout world history and I'm curious to what countries cover everything about themselves while others would ignore certain parts to paint a narrative.
 
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Lemmingwise

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Resurrecting this dead thread because of recent events.

One question that I've pondered is do other countries that have had civil wars in their past acknowledge them in some degree either with a monument or historical spot that is part of the country's tour guide? When you look at this list there has been a fuckton throughout world history and I'm curious to what countries cover everything about themselves while others would ignore certain parts to paint a narrative.
Across Europe statues and monuments are being protested against by assortments of leftists. They generally have little knowledge of the history. Not unfrequently they want to remove statues from people that fought to liberate slaves. From their actions one can surmise that it just is a general attack on statues/history/traditionalism and that their restraint in not yet targetting every statue seems to be a slow frog building strategy, or salami technique.
 

Sicklick

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Trump supporters let this shit happen to them. They are weak.

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But when they go against the fash, they get smashed.

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Removing a piece of history is almost (there are always extreme cases) never a good thing. Even if you don't like it it's a reminder how things were and whether or not you'd wish things were like that again or thank god we live in a different world now.
 
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Fangsofjeff

♡ I CANNED BEEF ♡
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Important historical figures were more often than not sociopaths responsible for the suffering of many. If we destroyed everything that honors people who have done hurtful things, we would have to destroy civilization itself. We must accept history for the shitshow that it is and move on.

Martin Luther King? He watched a rape happen and encouraged the rapist to keep going. Better remove every mention of him from public spaces! Kwanzaa? The creator was a rapist. Malcolm X? Racist antisemitic terrorist. The Black Panthers? Violent criminals. If it's okay to destroy confederate history, it should also be okay to destroy African American history. Both could be considered "problematic".

The Black Panthers' minister of information Eldridge Cleaver said:
When I considered myself ready enough, I crossed the tracks and sought out white prey. I did this consciously, deliberately, willfully, methodically – though looking back I see that I was in a frantic, wild and completely abandoned frame of mind. Rape was an insurrectionary act. It delighted me that I was defying and trampling upon the white man's law, upon his system of values, and that I was defiling his women...I felt I was getting revenge. From the site of the act of rape, consternation spread outwardly in concentric circles. I wanted to send waves of consternation throughout the white race.

If a community wants to replace a statue with something else, they should do it calmly and legally. Letting anarchists wreck them sends the wrong message and costs lives.
 
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