Restorative Justice -

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melty

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Restorative Justice is the latest SJW-ism to come along in the context of reforming the justice system, abolishing the police, eliminating prisons, etc. What is Restorative Justice?

Restorative justice is an approach to justice in which one of the responses to a crime is to organize a meeting between the victim and the offender, sometimes with representatives of the wider community. The goal is for them to share their experience of what happened, to discuss who was harmed by the crime and how, and to create a consensus for what the offender can do to repair the harm from the offense. This may include a payment of money given from the offender to the victim, apologies and other amends, and other actions to compensate those affected and to prevent the offender from causing future harm.

I've tried to find more nuance to it, but that's pretty much it. Instead of going to police, if somebody steals from you or whatever, you sit down and talk to them about how hurt your feelings are. Now you might think that this sounds like some feel good bullshit that doesn't actually work. And you're probably right. But it's becoming increasingly popular among SJWs. Here's Vox on it:
“When I was crying, that was no,” Sofia yelled. “When I pushed your hands away, that was no! And when I said, ‘I’m not that kind of girl,’ that was NO! I want to know what you were thinking. What were you thinking?”
I was sitting with Sofia, 15 years old, as she directly addressed Michael, her 18-year-old schoolmate who had sexually assaulted her. This face-to-face dialogue was the conclusion of a month-long process during which I’d been helping these young people practice restorative justice.
Michael’s eyes darted between mine and Sofia’s. “I don’t want to say anything that makes it your fault,” he said. “I don’t want to say what I was thinking ’cause it was stupid.”
He looked at me again. I nodded to encourage him to share what he’d shared with me earlier. He took a deep breath, pulled out the sheet of paper he’d written his notes on, and began.
A solution for justice outside of the legal system
As a survivor of child sexual abuse, sexual assault, and rape, I’ve often wondered what justice would look like for the sexual violence I’ve endured. I, like professor Christine Blasey Ford and the vast majority of survivors, never reported any of the men who violated me. Even as a child, and later, as a young woman, I knew what I needed could not be delivered by a school expulsion hearing or a court proceeding.
I wanted what Ana María Archila Gualy, the survivor who confronted Sen. Jeff Flake when he stated he planned to vote to confirm Brett Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court, described: “The way that justice works is that you recognize harm, you take responsibility for it, and then you begin to repair it.”
But for this to happen, everyone impacted by sexual violence needs to feel they can speak openly. Expulsion hearings, tribunals, or courts of law are not designed to do this; rather, these forums disincentivize truth-telling because those who harmed us know they’ll be punished if they admit what really happened. The risks are also high for survivors, who face social stigma for coming forward about their experiences and are often forced to undergo painful questioning.
We are seeing this play out on the national stage today. After Ford testified about the violent sexual assault she remembers enduring as a teenager, she continues to receive death threats against her family and has been forced to leave her home for safety reasons. She also underwent a painful cross-examination-style questioning in front of Congress and the entire country. The president of the United States mocked her testimony at a rally, and his audience cheered and laughed. All of this is surely why her opening remarks before the Judiciary Committee included the words, “I am here today not because I want to be.”
Those words made me remember why, 12 years ago, I left the practice of law and its winner-takes-all approach for the field of restorative justice. Restorative justice brings those who have harmed, their victims, and affected families and communities into processes that repair the harm and rebuild relationships. This can take several forms, such as peacemaking circles and conferencing models. Restorative justice can help resolve nearly any kind of wrongdoing or conflict, including serious harms such as robbery, burglary, assault — even sexual and intimate partner violence, and even murder.
The process invites truth-telling on all sides by replacing punitive approaches to wrongdoing in favor of collective healing and solutions. Rather than asking, “What law was broken, who broke it, and how should they be punished?” restorative justice asks, “Who was harmed? What do they need? Whose obligation is it to meet those needs?” At its best, restorative justice produces consensus-based plans through face-to-face dialogue that meets the needs of everyone impacted, beginning with the crime survivor.
Sexual violence could be addressed through restorative justice in many formats. Some schools have restorative justice alternatives to suspension and expulsion, with restorative justice coordinators on school sites. A handful of district attorneys divert cases to nonprofits who are trained in facilitating restorative justice processes (that’s how Michael and Sofia’s case came to me). Sometimes rape or sexual assault survivors who hear of my work call me directly and ask me to facilitate a dialogue with the person who harmed them.
What is restorative justice? Here’s how it works.
As a restorative justice facilitator, my work begins with asking what survivors want from meeting with the person who harmed them. While their answers vary, in sexual violence cases there is a common thread — they want to hear the person who assaulted them say, “You’re telling the truth. I did that to you. It’s my fault, not yours.” They often want this admission to happen in the presence of both of their families and friends. Most survivors are also looking for some indication that the person who harmed them truly understands what they’ve done and that they won’t do it again. Some request to never have to see that person again.
The length of the process and the number of meetings required to get us there varies from case to case. Sometimes a circle or conference happens within days or weeks of the harm, while others can take months for everyone to feel prepared. Because sexual violence occurs and continues through shame and secrecy, restorative interventions are most effective when family and/or close friends of both parties are included. Given that personal and often humiliating details are often shared, survivors have final say over who can attend.
A quick note: In restorative justice, we avoid defining people by their behaviors and experiences with labels like “victim,” “offender,” and “perpetrator” because those terms deny that all people are capable of growth and change. Instead, we use the word “survivor” because it honors that a person is in the process of transcending something painful or unjust. We also use phrases like “the responsible person” or “the person who assaulted the survivor” to show that people are more than the worst thing they have ever done.
At the end of the process, which typically ends with one or more face-to-face sessions with the entire circle, a plan to meet the survivor’s self-identified needs is made by consensus of everyone present. The responsible person is supported by family and community to do right by those they’ve harmed. For example, if joining a sports team is a part of the responsible person’s plan to help them stay out of trouble after school, people in his circle agree to take him to practice, or pay for the enrollment fees.
Ideally, root causes of the harm are also addressed, such as the impact of growing up in a home where people witnessed domestic violence. Many men I’ve met in restorative justice circles in prisons speak about the sexual abuse they endured as children and how that unresolved trauma gave rise to their offending. In those discussions, we are clear about the distinction between explanation and excuse. Some restorative justice practitioners encourage addressing structural inequities that gave rise to the offending behavior as well.
Restorative justice in practice
What does restorative justice look like in practice? Let’s return to Sofia and Michael, a case I facilitated a few years ago (all names and some details have been changed to protect anonymity). Not only was Sofia suffering from the aftermath of the assault itself, but Michael’s friends had posted on social media that Sofia had lied about the assault. Michael was a well-liked kid, and there were no witnesses to the sexual assault, so people were quick to believe his initial denials.
With the help of her friends, Sofia told a teacher, which led to Michael being arrested. The district attorney diverted the case to a nonprofit I’d trained in restorative circles and conferencing, who asked for my guidance. The first step was to reach out to Michael to assess his willingness to work with us. Our first meeting with Michael focused on building trust, answering questions, and, without pressuring him, determining his willingness to participate. He quickly agreed, saying he wanted to “make this right.”
This was possible, in part, because we’d assured Michael that by agreement with the district attorney and the school district, nothing Michael or Sofia said could be used against them in school discipline or juvenile justice processes. Once Michael agreed to participate, we contacted Sofia and her family to determine her interest. While people were surprised to learn such a program existed, everyone, including parents on both sides, felt like the process would be a good thing for Michael and Sofia.
In advance of the big meeting, my co-facilitator and I met separately several times with Sofia, Michael, and the supporters they planned to bring to the dialogue. First, I helped them both choose who should be part of the meeting. At first, there was resistance — Michael initially didn’t want anyone there to support him, but over time he opened up to the idea of his mother and sister being present. Sofia decided that she was too embarrassed to have any men from her or Michael’s family present, and both families accepted this. The meeting ended up including Sofia, Michael, both of their mothers, and Michael’s younger sister.
In my prep meetings with Sofia and her mother, we discussed what she wanted to say to Michael about the impact of the assault. We worked with Michael to understand the implications of what he did and where that behavior came from. We shared information about when and where the meeting will be held, who will enter the room first, who will sit where, who will speak first, and who will be present. These details are primarily driven by the safety needs of the survivor but can occasionally be impacted by the desires of the person who caused the harm. The key is to set things up so that both parties know what to expect and feel safe to share freely and openly.
Sometimes, it’s hard for people to imagine speaking directly to the person who harmed them. While preparing for the meeting, Sofia expressed her desire to stay silent and have her mother speak for her. But the moment Michael entered the room, Sofia’s demeanor instantly changed from timid to emboldened, and a powerful dialogue ensued about the impact of the assault on Sofia’s life and on her family. Sofia told the group she had lost weight, was sleeping in her mother’s bed, woke up with nightmares, and had stopped going to school because of the rumors that she was lying for attention. As they worked through the details of the assault and its aftermath, Michael finally answered Sofia’s question about what he was thinking at the time of the assault.
“I know you’re a good girl, and I thought all good girls have to fight a little the first time,” he said.
Michael’s sister gasped, and the room went silent for a little while. Even as the words came out of his own mouth, we could all see Michael realize how wrong this was. He bent over and put his face in hands, and when he looked up, Sofia’s mother squinted at him in disbelief, shaking her head. After what felt like an eternity, Michael’s mother finally broke the silence, saying to her own daughter, “See? I brought you so you’d know even nice boys like your brother can think things like this, do things like this.”
Upon hearing Michael’s mother take Sofia’s “side,” both Sofia and her mother broke down in tears, and Michael’s mother stood up and hugged them. Then she sat back down, placed her hand gently on her son’s arm, and shared stories of sexual violence endured in the past by members of her own family.
As the women and girls spoke of the impact of daily street harassment and other sexual harm they’ve seen or experienced, Michael alternated between silence and occasional thoughtful questions. He also spoke honestly about what he’s learned from media representations of consent and how his friends talk about girls they have been intimate with. He confessed his own struggle to understand the line between expressing interest and being creepy. He talked about how his ex-girlfriend broke up with him, in part because, according to her, he didn’t “chase her enough.”
At that point, Michael confessed that he thought that what he did was okay because he felt that Sofia had expressed interest in him. Sofia looked him directly in the eyes and told him that this had no bearing on his choice to assault her when she said no. When she said this, Michael paused. Everyone could see that her point was sinking in.
Sofia’s transformation was breathtaking — she found her voice that day. And by the end of our time together, it felt like Michael had gained an understanding of consent. As we moved into creating a plan to repair the harm, Michael offered to clear up Sofia’s reputation by posting on social media a public apology to her, which included the words “she didn’t lie.” Michael also agreed with Sofia’s request for him to spend a month of school at home to give Sofia space. Afterward, everyone except for Michael and Sofia hugged.
In the weeks that followed, Sofia’s mother reported that her daughter had even more self-confidence than she’d had before the assault; not only had she moved back into her room and stopped wearing the baggy clothes she’d started wearing after the assault, she also spoke up more about her feelings and opinions, including with the men in the family. And after graduation, Michael sent me a copy of a research paper he’d chosen to write on sexual violence.
Restorative justice in the real world
Restorative justice processes aren’t always this satisfying. In other cases, when legal or other punitive consequences have hung over the heads of the young people (i.e., school expulsion, Title IX hearings, immigration consequences, etc.), admissions were couched in exculpatory language and the assault was minimized. The stakes remain too high for the truth to come out, and restorative justice’s core work — recognizing harm, taking responsibility for it, and beginning to repair it — cannot happen under these circumstances.
While this is extremely frustrating for survivors, some choose to engage in a dialogue nonetheless. Even without an admission of guilt from the person who harmed them, a survivor may still find some benefit from being able to say, face to face, “I don’t care if you deny it; I know you did this to me.” This is something that those who give victim impact statements might also experience in a court of law, even though victim impact statements rarely alter the outcome of a case, especially when survivors are asking for sentences that go above or below what the law prescribes. Hopefully, Ford experienced some portion of catharsis by telling her story in a public arena, even though the outcome of this hearing did not validate her bravery.
Restorative justice practices have been primarily applied to youth who’ve caused harm. In Baltimore, Nashville, Oakland, and several other cities across this nation, people under the age of 18 can be diverted before charges are filed to a nonprofit that is trained to facilitate restorative circles and conferences. School districts in many major cities have adopted some form of it as an alternative to more punitive approaches. Our growing understanding of the changing brains of youth, coupled with our rejection of the “superpredator” myth that there are (primarily African-American) youths predisposed to a life of senseless violence, has made us more open to approaches that give kids “a second chance.” But restorative justice offers equal benefits when applied to adults, and when parties are willing, it should be as readily available to them as well.
While restorative justice is nothing new — the theory and practice can be traced to many indigenous communities the world over — it has yet to genuinely circumvent or replace punitive systems in any meaningful way, despite its greater efficacy on several fronts. In a recent study of the first 100 felony cases diverted to restorative justice in Alameda County, California — including some sexual violence cases — 91 percent of survivor-participants reported they would participate in another conference, and an equal number (91 percent) stated they would recommend the process to a friend. Moreover, youth who participated in the program were 44 percent less likely to commit future crimes than those whose crimes were addressed through the county’s juvenile justice system. The cost savings, as compared to adjudicating youth delinquents, are enormous.
Some jurisdictions have thought to make restorative justice an add-on to court proceedings. But for restorative justice to be effective, it must remain outside the purview of the courts or other punitive measures. Restorative justice’s beauty and effectiveness flow from people feeling free to tell the truth, and being welcomed to do so.
Another key effective aspect of restorative justice is the way power is rebalanced through dialogue. Crime survivors define their own needs rather than remaining at the mercy of a court’s legitimation. Survivors often state that simply being asked questions like, “How do you define the harm? What do you need now? What will make this right?” is the most important part of the process because it allows them to reconnect with their power after experiencing trauma that made them feel powerless.
As I’ve watched this Supreme Court battle unfold, I’ve wished I had met Ford and Kavanaugh decades ago when they were teenagers. Restorative justice might have been able to help Kavanaugh and his friends process the impact of the behavior they’ve been accused of. And it could have provided an opportunity for Ford, Deborah Ramirez, and others to find their voices in more supportive environments. We would all be better off for it.

It's apparently becoming a thing in schools. Unsurprisingly, it doesn't work very well.
Last week, the first randomized control trial study of “restorative justice” in a major urban district, Pittsburgh Public Schools, was published by the RAND Corporation.

The results were curiously mixed. Suspensions went down in elementary but not middle schools. Teachers reported improved school safety, professional environment, and classroom management ability. But students disagreed. They thought their teachers’ classroom management deteriorated, and that students in class were less respectful and supportive of each other; at a lower confidence interval, they reported bullying and more instructional time lost to disruption. And although restorative justice is billed as a way to fight the “school-to-prison pipeline,” it had no impact on student arrests.

The most troubling thing: There were significant and substantial negative effects on math achievement for middle school students, black students, and students in schools that are predominantly black.

What are we to make of these results? For education journalists like U.S. News and World Report’s Lauren Camera, there’s an easy solution: Don’t report the negative findings and write an article titled “Study Contradicts Betsy DeVos’ Reason for Eliminating School Discipline Guidance.”

When asked why she left her readers in the dark regarding the negative effects on black student achievement, Camera said that it “wasn’t intentional,” explaining that “it wasn’t meant to be a deep dive into the study. And we linked to it, so readers who wanted to follow up could.”

Chalkbeat’s Matt Barnum is somewhat unique among education journalists for his practice of reading academic studies in full before writing about them. Barnum commented, “Well, I will say that the researchers didn’t do any favors in framing the results for reporters. The negative test for effect for black kids is buried on like page eighty with no mention (that I saw) until then…. [T]he research itself is excellent; their choice in framing is…notable.”

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the education policy community will not read this study in sufficient depth to share their disappointment in RAND’s unmistakably slanted editorial emphases. They will read of mostly positive results, and of negative results framed by the RAND researchers as likely attributable to bad implementation of good policy.

It is very sad that the so-called “evidence-based policymaking” community has rendered itself immune to the intellectual breakthrough that enabled the scientific revolution: accepting the falsification of a hypothesis. When it comes to studies of ideologically-preferred policies like restorative justice, the logic all too often is: “Heads, I win. Tails, I would have won if it were implemented correctly.”

The mental itch to label negative results as a product of “bad implementation” rather than a failure is not only anti-scientific, it also short circuits thoughtful policy discussion. Everything beyond empirical data is necessarily the realm of theory, and there are many more interesting and intuitive theories for the failures.

For example, it could be true that the positive effects in elementary school and negative effects in middle school could be reconciled by “bad implementation” in middle schools. Or perhaps the explanation could be that six-year-olds are different than thirteen-year-olds, and that restorative justice works in elementary schools but not middle schools.

It could also be true that the negative results for black students (and for all students in predominantly black schools) could be attributable to bad implementation. Or perhaps restorative justice is uniquely bad for black students. After all, discipline reformers contend that the explanation for the academic and disciplinary racial disparity is teachers’ cultural incompetence when it comes to understanding and relating to black students.

Accepting that premise, the negative results for black students should suggest that restorative justice is an even more culturally incompetent approach.

The researchers conduct an admittedly non-causal empirical dance to support the proposition that the disjunction between teacher and student perception of teacher classroom management is due to non-implementing teachers. That could be true. It could also be true that teachers think that it makes them better, even as students see their classroom climate deteriorating.

For my part, I would privilege the perspective of students over teachers.

Restorative justice is frequently presented to teachers as “evidence-based” and on the cutting edge of “social justice” as something that works if they embrace it. Man’s capacity for self-deception cannot be discounted, and if teachers think they’re doing better even as students think things are getting worse, that would be consistent with the policy drama that has played out writ large over the last two years: In the face of increasingly overwhelming negative evidence, social justice education reformers have only grown more vociferous in their insistence that discipline reform works.

Right now, the tally of studies on the academic effects of discipline reform on school districts are three negative (Pittsburgh, Los Angeles, Philadelphia) and one null/positive (Chicago). In terms of student surveys, my tally has four negative (NYC, Los Angeles, Washoe County, Seattle) and one negative/positive (Chicago). When it comes to local teacher surveys, I’ve seen eleven negative (Oklahoma City, Baton Rouge, Portland, Jackson, Denver, Syracuse, Santa Ana, Hillsborough, Madison, Charleston, Buffalo) and one positive (Pittsburgh).

Fortunately, now that President Trump has rescinded the 2014 school discipline “Dear Colleague” letter, school leaders can make policy based on the interests of their students, not based on fear of losing federal funding.

And perhaps the most salutary effect of the Trump era is the extreme and extremely justified skepticism of policy elites. Despite the fact that this study represents the most rigorous empirical examination of restorative justice, editorial decisions made in the game of telephone from researchers to journalists to advocates to educators all but guarantee that school leaders would be better informed if they never heard of it.

Now what's interesting is when I first started hearing about this, it sounded really familiar - fundie churches are notorious for this exact thing. There are a ton of stories of underaged women being assaulted or raped by men in their church, and instead of going to the police, everyone goes through the church, and the man, woman, their families, and the church leaders all sit around and talk about it and pray about it. Women who have experienced this and left the church have as many fond things to say about this extrajudicial process as you may imagine, which is none.

And it turns out I was totally right, this is exactly the same shit from churches. From http://restorativejustice.org/ About Us:

As a program of Prison Fellowship International, the Centre helps PFI's 125 national affiliates advance timeless principles of justice and reconciliation in their criminal justice systems.

Mission
Convinced that restorative justice is an important contemporary expression of those principles, the Centre has adopted the following mission: To develop and promote restorative justice in criminal justice systems around the world.

Vision
The Centre's vision is a future in which restorative justice is a normal response to crime.

Values
While operating from within the Christian tradition, the Centre finds common ground and joins in advocating for restorative justice with people from all backgrounds and traditions.

Prison Fellowship International is an NGO that promotes Restorative Justice and offers prison ministries and various other religious activities in prisons:

I think it's pretty creepy that not only did they steal this from churches, they're trying to push it in the same sorts of cases - sexual assault - that religious women have long complained about.

Has anyone come into contact with this Restorative Justice shit? Thoughts?
 
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Beautiful Border

kiwifarms.net
Restorative justice relies on the premise that the offender feels guilt and remorse for their actions. The problem is that the kind of person who would feel guilty for committing a crime generally isn't the kind of person who commits crimes in the first place (something which should be obvious, but apparently not). It's a concept that's so stupid and naive that only a sheltered white upper-middle class academic could think it's a good idea.
 

Chilson

kiwifarms.net
Humans are not wired to give a shit if someone is in the way of something we need. Maslow's hierarchy of needs puts home, safety and food at the bottom because they are the most necessary.

People who steal, deal drugs, run in gangs or whatever the fuck do so out of innate need to do so because it helps them to secure one of these needs. I am not saying that it is a good way to get those needs, but to them its the only way the know. People are also inherently egotistical, we are self centered and create whatever mental fantasies and justifications we need to justify our actions as correct, even when they are clearly not. Gangs, where most serious crimes are committed, also reinforce and praise these behaviors giving further justification and belonging to those who commit crimes.

Mix all this together and you get people who don't give a fuck how someone "feels" about what crime they committed. The only way to prevent it is to put barriers in the way. These barriers are most obviously prison, though with the way high and even some medium security prisons are run on the inside if the person was not a member of a gang before they went in they are almost assuredly part of one going out. Not to mention how prison overcrowding leads to many inmates being released way before their full sentence, but that is a whole other can of beans.

However, I have always supported prison job programs to get people degrees or trade licenses on the inside so they could find another way to secure home, safety and food. There are many other such ideas that have far more impact and actually help prevent crimes than Restorative justice, which is yet more nonsense for SJW's to preach about because of how difficult it is to accept that 13% of the population commits over half the crimes.
 

Save the Loli

kiwifarms.net
A lot of the restorative justice BS will emphasize how "it worked for Native Americans and Africans for thousands of years" which reeks of the usual noble savage shit the SJW types love. Now, they aren't wrong, those societies were very functional and many of them did practice restorative justice. But I think we all agree there's a difference between doing that sort of shit in a village or tribal group of maybe 100 people where everyone is vaguely related and today's communities which have many thousands of people. There's another key problem too in that misunderstands how exactly they did restorative justice in those societies. Yes, they sat down and talked it out, but the victim was the one who had the say over the punishment and restitution the offender owed them.

And it could be anything, like the offender might be banished into the wild where they'd eventually die of starvation or something, the offender might be forced to be a temporary slave to the victim (and yes, some were sold to the white man as slaves for life), the offender might have to pay a fuckton of money. It's "restorative" in that it restored the relationship between the victim and offender which kept society functioning.
 

Lone MacReady

Juvenile Macromastia Sufferer
kiwifarms.net
Good luck having a faggy, elementary school-tier feels pow-wow between a Murderer/Rapist and his victim's family. Holy fuck do we live in a evermore irradiated open-air adult daycare center.
Humans are not wired to give a shit if someone is in the way of something we need. Maslow's hierarchy of needs puts home, safety and food at the bottom because they are the most necessary.

People who steal, deal drugs, run in gangs or whatever the fuck do so out of innate need to do so because it helps them to secure one of these needs. I am not saying that it is a good way to get those needs, but to them its the only way the know. People are also inherently egotistical, we are self centered and create whatever mental fantasies and justifications we need to justify our actions as correct, even when they are clearly not. Gangs, where most serious crimes are committed, also reinforce and praise these behaviors giving further justification and belonging to those who commit crimes.

Mix all this together and you get people who don't give a fuck how someone "feels" about what crime they committed. The only way to prevent it is to put barriers in the way. These barriers are most obviously prison, though with the way high and even some medium security prisons are run on the inside if the person was not a member of a gang before they went in they are almost assuredly part of one going out. Not to mention how prison overcrowding leads to many inmates being released way before their full sentence, but that is a whole other can of beans.

However, I have always supported prison job programs to get people degrees or trade licenses on the inside so they could find another way to secure home, safety and food. There are many other such ideas that have far more impact and actually help prevent crimes than Restorative justice, which is yet more nonsense for SJW's to preach about because of how difficult it is to accept that 13% of the population commits over half the crimes.
5%, you have to account for that gender/age demo split. Shaniqwa may be insufferable, but she isn't commiting disproportionate murder quite like young Omar is.
 
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Ita Mori

💔This is the best way to go💔
kiwifarms.net
The most troubling thing: There were significant and substantial negative effects on math achievement for middle school students, black students, and students in schools that are predominantly black.
Ah yes, the worst thing in all of this is how it affects small niggas. Of course.
Ngl, EsJays have worked very hard to ensure every other race resents their pet nigs, who admittedly aren't even at fault for it.
One must remember to have enough buckshot for both the jogger and the soy.

perhaps restorative justice is uniquely bad for black students
Or maybe, just maybe, kids of any race can see through how deceptive this whole sham is, and realize they can be as unruly as they want so long as they pretend to feel bad about it in front of the dangerhair who has a fetish for them.
The only kids who suffer are those who want to study and get ahead while the future burger flippers and amazon employees get to act out on them with near impunity.


Has anyone come into contact with this Restorative Justice shit?
I have no plans to.
Assuming I ever had the ill fate of being in a rape scenario, the only justice I find suitable is like they said in Casino; there's a lot of holes in the desert, and a lot of problems are buried in those holes.
 
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Kosher Dill

Potato Chips
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
There's another key problem too in that misunderstands how exactly they did restorative justice in those societies. Yes, they sat down and talked it out, but the victim was the one who had the say over the punishment and restitution the offender owed them.
I'm interested in reading more about this, do you have any recommendations?
 

Save the Loli

kiwifarms.net
I'm interested in reading more about this, do you have any recommendations?
Can't think of any off the top of my head, it's mostly a bunch of anthropology/ethnographic stuff (some for college, some because why not do something interesting like study other cultures) about Africans and Native Americans I've read when it describes how some of them solved internal disputes (which often was people doing criminal shit to each other). This is what the chief, village headman, etc. was involved in.

If you look at which societies were practicing restorative justice, it's mostly the small-scale societies. Although I guess shit like Germanic weregild ("kill a person, you owe him X amount of money") is similar and bigger societies like Anglo-Saxon England had that in their justice system (although Germanic society let a murder victim's family kill the murderer which isn't very restorative). But anyway, considering that a lot of small hunter gatherer peoples (and ones maybe one step above it like the African tribes who farm on really bad land so still hunt a lot of their food) all over the world practiced this sort of justice it's an interesting look into how human society evolved. Ultimately though, I think you'd really have to tweak a restorative justice system to make it work in modern society. There's probably a reason most societies moved onto shit like "steal something, get your hand cut off" and public lashings.
 

Mnutu

kiwifarms.net
Restorative and rehabilitative justice is shit. If you did something to land you into the big boy house, your ass should be on death row. If you’re in the play pen, pay up or lay up. Punitive is the only effective method, because it doesn’t need the guilty party to feel remorse or want something better. It cares about upholding the law. Frankly, a remorseful criminal would accept the punishment.
 

Drain Todger

Unhinged Doomsayer
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I have a much better idea. Public caning. Not with a rattan cane, but with a stiff and wrinkly bull penis cane wielded by a man in a dapper tailcoat, top hat and monocle, just for that extra dose of old-timey chauvinism.

BullPenisCane_Etsy-630x439.jpg

No more wasteful and expensive prisons. No more executions. None of this silly, pansy restorative justice business. If someone does something wrong, just beat that fucker's ass raw with a dehydrated bull cock in full view of everyone. That'll learn 'em.

Now what's interesting is when I first started hearing about this, it sounded really familiar - fundie churches are notorious for this exact thing. There are a ton of stories of underaged women being assaulted or raped by men in their church, and instead of going to the police, everyone goes through the church, and the man, woman, their families, and the church leaders all sit around and talk about it and pray about it. Women who have experienced this and left the church have as many fond things to say about this extrajudicial process as you may imagine, which is none.

And it turns out I was totally right, this is exactly the same shit from churches. From http://restorativejustice.org/ About Us:

Prison Fellowship International is an NGO that promotes Restorative Justice and offers prison ministries and various other religious activities in prisons:

I think it's pretty creepy that not only did they steal this from churches, they're trying to push it in the same sorts of cases - sexual assault - that religious women have long complained about.

Has anyone come into contact with this Restorative Justice shit? Thoughts?
Kidding aside, I am increasingly convinced that the people pushing for this kind of bullshit behind the scenes are deliberately trying to collapse civil society. Not to get too conspiracy-minded, but somehow, this reeks of subterfuge. When you dig deep, it's always the same group of NGOs and think tanks pushing this kind of shit.
 

Hellbound Hellhound

kiwifarms.net
Restorative and rehabilitative justice is shit. If you did something to land you into the big boy house, your ass should be on death row. If you’re in the play pen, pay up or lay up. Punitive is the only effective method, because it doesn’t need the guilty party to feel remorse or want something better. It cares about upholding the law. Frankly, a remorseful criminal would accept the punishment.
That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world. The United States, meanwhile, has a justice system which emphasizes punishment, yet has some of the highest rates of recidivism in the world, coupled with a violent crime rate which far exceeds what you would expect for a country of it's relative wealth.
 

DeadFish

I've may have made some mistakes...
kiwifarms.net
I have a much better idea. Public caning. Not with a rattan cane, but with a stiff and wrinkly bull penis cane wielded by a man in a dapper tailcoat, top hat and monocle, just for that extra dose of old-timey chauvinism.

View attachment 1962772

No more wasteful and expensive prisons. No more executions. None of this silly, pansy restorative justice business. If someone does something wrong, just beat that fucker's ass raw with a dehydrated bull cock in full view of everyone. That'll learn 'em.


Kidding aside, I am increasingly convinced that the people pushing for this kind of bullshit behind the scenes are deliberately trying to collapse civil society. Not to get too conspiracy-minded, but somehow, this reeks of subterfuge. When you dig deep, it's always the same group of NGOs and think tanks pushing this kind of shit.
How many are funded by the ccp?
 

Mnutu

kiwifarms.net
That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world. The United States, meanwhile, has a justice system which emphasizes punishment, yet has some of the highest rates of recidivism in the world, coupled with a violent crime rate which far exceeds what you would expect for a country of it's relative wealth.
Compare Sweden to Norway in demographics and recidivism and you’ll have the real reason why. America has been rehabilitative for decades (admittedly, it’s not particularly good or well implemented). You can’t rehabilitate the unwilling.

If it’s specifically the American system, we need to re-evaluate infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies. Felonies ought to be reserved for crimes worthy of execution, and misdemeanors for crimes worthy of no more than a year in jail. It’s worse to imprison someone for years than it is to execute them.
 

melty

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Kidding aside, I am increasingly convinced that the people pushing for this kind of bullshit behind the scenes are deliberately trying to collapse civil society. Not to get too conspiracy-minded, but somehow, this reeks of subterfuge. When you dig deep, it's always the same group of NGOs and think tanks pushing this kind of shit.
Yep, the woman who wrote the Vox article recieved a Soros Justice Fellowship for her "work", so there you go.
She also recieved a MacArthur Genius Grant.
 

Hellbound Hellhound

kiwifarms.net
Compare Sweden to Norway in demographics and recidivism and you’ll have the real reason why. America has been rehabilitative for decades (admittedly, it’s not particularly good or well implemented). You can’t rehabilitate the unwilling.

If it’s specifically the American system, we need to re-evaluate infractions, misdemeanors, and felonies. Felonies ought to be reserved for crimes worthy of execution, and misdemeanors for crimes worthy of no more than a year in jail. It’s worse to imprison someone for years than it is to execute them.
Sweden still has far lower levels of crime than the United States, and even when accounting for the uptake in immigration, the crime rate has only moderately gone up since the 90s. The Swedish approach to crime is demonstrably more successful than the US approach, and if you really think about it you'll understand why. Emphasizing punishment as a means to combat crime doesn't work for the simple reason that people don't commit crimes thinking they're going to get caught; by that point, the system has already failed.

I'm also at a loss as to how executing people is preferable to imprisonment; especially in the very real circumstances where people can be wrongfully convicted. How are you supposed to undo the injustice of a wrongful execution? How, for that matter, does executing people undo any of the harm the perpetrator may have caused? In what way is granting the state the authority to destroy lives a good idea? This isn't the way that a civilized society responds to crime; it's primitive retribution.
 

Mnutu

kiwifarms.net
Sweden still has far lower levels of crime than the United States, and even when accounting for the uptake in immigration, the crime rate has only moderately gone up since the 90s. The Swedish approach to crime is demonstrably more successful than the US approach, and if you really think about it you'll understand why. Emphasizing punishment as a means to combat crime doesn't work for the simple reason that people don't commit crimes thinking they're going to get caught; by that point, the system has already failed.

I'm also at a loss as to how executing people is preferable to imprisonment; especially in the very real circumstances where people can be wrongfully convicted. How are you supposed to undo the injustice of a wrongful execution? How, for that matter, does executing people undo any of the harm the perpetrator may have caused? In what way is granting the state the authority to destroy lives a good idea? This isn't the way that a civilized society responds to crime; it's primitive retribution.
Re-read that again; compare Sweden to Norway. Sweden’s crime has increased because of increased immigration. Sweden has a relatively low crime rate, but it’s blown out of the water by Norway. You are comparing apples to oranges anytime you compare America to Scandinavia. Completely different cultures. But you can notice that any time a country has a larger minority, there is an increase in crime.

Civilization has always relied on killing and execution. Stop pretending like it hasn’t. Name one society anywhere in the world that hasn’t required state executions at any point in its history. The idea is to re-evaluate the severity of crimes. Most crimes should fall into either infractions or misdemeanors. Meaning the worst you get is a year or two of jail time. Miscarriage of justice is a problem even for lifers, you can’t just pretend that because you let him out you haven’t taken 20 years of his life away.
 

Hellbound Hellhound

kiwifarms.net
Civilization has always relied on killing and execution. Stop pretending like it hasn’t. Name one society anywhere in the world that hasn’t required state executions at any point in its history. The idea is to re-evaluate the severity of crimes. Most crimes should fall into either infractions or misdemeanors. Meaning the worst you get is a year or two of jail time. Miscarriage of justice is a problem even for lifers, you can’t just pretend that because you let him out you haven’t taken 20 years of his life away.
The definition of civilization is a state of political and cultural development which is considered most advanced. There was a time when most societies considered civilized practiced execution, but nowadays that is no longer the case. Most civilized countries have now abolished the death penalty, and doing so hasn't coincided with an increase in violent crime; quite the opposite in fact.

The point about miscarriage of justice is related to a broader point about rehabilitation here. A person who has been wrongfully imprisoned can be heavily compensated, and while that doesn't undo the injustice they've faced, it's clearly morally preferable to them being dead. By the same token, someone being rehabilitated and hopefully finding contrition for their wrongdoing in the process is clearly better than just killing them. Death is final, and if human life is so cheap in the eyes of the law that it would rather dispose of people than invest in their betterment, then I'd say the law is not very civilized.
 

DeadFish

I've may have made some mistakes...
kiwifarms.net
The definition of civilization is a state of political and cultural development which is considered most advanced. There was a time when most societies considered civilized practiced execution, but nowadays that is no longer the case. Most civilized countries have now abolished the death penalty, and doing so hasn't coincided with an increase in violent crime; quite the opposite in fact.

The point about miscarriage of justice is related to a broader point about rehabilitation here. A person who has been wrongfully imprisoned can be heavily compensated, and while that doesn't undo the injustice they've faced, it's clearly morally preferable to them being dead. By the same token, someone being rehabilitated and hopefully finding contrition for their wrongdoing in the process is clearly better than just killing them. Death is final, and if human life is so cheap in the eyes of the law that it would rather dispose of people than invest in their betterment, then I'd say the law is not very civilized.
If a person is innocent but gets snapped for a crime they didn't commit then it's better they die. Such an unlucky person is a detriment to society as a whole.
 
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