Restorative Justice -

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Kosher Dill

Potato Chips
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world.
Rehabilitation works fine when you're bringing someone back into regular law-abiding society. When you have a cohesive society with a high degree of equality this is perfectly sensible, but I think it's less clear when you have a permanent underclass or a population of newcomers who never had any intention of integrating into society.

Not that I'm entirely thrilled with the idea that "Our country failed to integrate you, therefore we must institute harsh punishment for you."
 

Xerxes IX

New cat, who this?
kiwifarms.net
I think it's pretty creepy that not only did they steal this from churches, they're trying to push it in the same sorts of cases - sexual assault - that religious women have long complained about.
I'm shocked they'd go there at ALL when the idea of men are rapist scum who deserve nothing is so prevalent in these circles. Now it's ok and justice has been achieved because the sexual assaulter said he's really sorry?

There have literally been articles about this stuff saying cartoons like fucking Steven Universe prove restorative justice will work. Like that didn't get a lot of criticism from the left for saying the genocidal, fascist dictators (who are also stand-ins for abusive family members) can be redeemed by the same stuff that's being pushed as restorative justice.
 

Wallace

Cram it in me, baby!
kiwifarms.net
The problem with restorative justice is that it requires the offender to admit that they did something wrong and have the desire to make amends. I can say from experience that this is not the case for many felons. I couldn't say how many feel this way, but I would say at least half, probably more. Teaching empathy to adults who lack it is an uphill battle. The fact that a lot of felons have severe untreated mental illnesses doesn't help either.

The current climate of SocJus doesn't do this mindset any favors either, since it emphasizes that the oppressed do not have agency, and whatever they do to their oppressors does not count as harm. Restorative justice won't work unless the offender admits their fault. Like all SJW talking points, it's more about making people feel good about themselves rather than actually fixing the problems.
 

Zero Day Defense

"Now come, Samurai. Put on a good show."
kiwifarms.net
5%, you have to account for that gender/age demo split. Shaniqwa may be insufferable, but she isn't commiting disproportionate murder quite like young Omar is.
You also have to account for the geographical distribution of those crimes.
 

CallMeKiwi

kiwifarms.net
Someone needs to ask prison abolitionists "what about Derek Chauvin?" right to their face, and record what happens.
 

Father Brown

kiwifarms.net
Criminals commit crimes because they think it's a good idea at the time. They think it's a good idea at the time, because factoring in time discounting, they prospect it to be one.

Now, Jamal has a very high time discount rate and he's not so good at prospecting. These two things are highly correlated and the latter is probably not very changeable in

The problem most forms of restorative justice run into is that they never consider that Jamal was acting in his perceived self-interest, which is something like the most obvious thing ever. But, it still gets missed and instead criminal actions are understood as some always curable pathology; a kind of extricable cancer of the mind that can be removed by hugs, positive feelings and a minimum wage job.

Sometimes this kind of stuff can work, maybe you can stop Jamal from hosing down a block party on south side through a court ordered mentorship program. But, more likely this kind of stuff will fail, especially when the crimes are less retarded -- think any crime where the pay off is more than just cathartic.

Worse still, most programs are going to lack intelligent incentive structures; it doesn't matter if my youth outreach/reintegration program is totally useless, because no one will pay that close attention and outcome monitoring is guaranteed to be dog shit. Also, there's never going to be anything to replace it with except another dog shit, also totally ineffective scheme. If you're lucky, you'll rediscover the wheel after ten years and go back to sending everyone to the slammer for 9 trillion years. There might exist a program that would kind of work. However, you probably won't find it and the incentives at play aren't to reduce crime, but to get paid and any program is going to be highly dependent on the quality of the implementation.

In the end the cold hard truth of the matter is that sending people to prison reduces crime and sending them to prison for longer reduces crime even more. There's a strong argument for not sending people to prison for things that aren't really significant crimes, or that don't betoken a general proclivity towards criminality. But even then the solution is not "restorative justice," but just other kinds of sanctions that don't disrupt their lives as much or put them into contact with worse offenders. Honestly, punishment for minor drug possession offences should just be caning, no prison, just a dozen strokes of the cane.

There is also no fact of the matter on whether this or that is "just"; justice is just a question of (usually self-serving) expectations. Confront the problem of crime on the basis of what minimizes crime, not whether this or that is "just" or whatever. Justice is basically just a matter of consistency.
 

mr.moon1488

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
The original concept of restorative justice wasn't bad at all and worked pretty well for juvenile offenders who'd committed petty crimes. The problem is since it's a system that works by an offender developing empathy for their victims, it's not going to work on any serious offenders. Studies have shown that most serious offenders in prison score high on the PCL-R. I wonder why a system that relies on the development of empathy might not work too well.

:thinking:

PCL-R.png
 

Cool Dog

A goodboi denied his Wendy's
kiwifarms.net
Once again SJWs do the horseshoe and end up right next to fundies

I been telling a few euphoric fedoras that you dont need religion to be a fucking fundie lunatic, the soviets and commie chinese already showed you can be an atheist nation and yet have a bunch of dogmatic fanatical fucks running around killing people over wrongthink. The spanish inquisition was a joke compared to the red terror or the cultural revolution.
That's not what the evidence suggests. Most of the countries in Northern Europe have justice systems which are heavily centered around rehabilitation, and they boast some of the lowest levels of crime and recidivism in the world. The United States, meanwhile, has a justice system which emphasizes punishment, yet has some of the highest rates of recidivism in the world, coupled with a violent crime rate which far exceeds what you would expect for a country of it's relative wealth.
People who say this forget sweden had an eugenics program up until the 70s where they sterilized violent criminals and psychopaths, then they are surprised that sweden now lacks those characters and have such low crimes rates

Consider how simply making abortion legal in burgerland did more to lower their crime rate than anything else they done, what does that tell you? simple: violent thuggish psychos shouldnt reproduce.
 

jje100010001

kiwifarms.net
Honestly it might work if it actually engages the perpetrators and makes them reconcile with the community, for others who don't think that they're doing anything wrong, it's just another useless mandatory class that they sit through while their brains are turned off.

In short, it might work if society was strongly moral-bound, with a strong culture of guilt and stoicism (i.e. Japan). In places like America where blame is the game, and where entire demographics are literally excused for their actions, I don't see it ever working.

Also like what others are saying, this doesn't work for sociopathic or psychopathic criminals, since they literally cannot develop any sort of empathy for the victim. Walls and jails exist for a reason, after all.
 

DiscoRodeo

kiwifarms.net
It's just an old christian adage of "forgive thine enemy" translated into modernity.

The thing with the old christian adage though is, some sins are so serious that only god will forgive you and on this earth, they do need to be punished.

For the majority of crimes, I'm fine with something along the lines of restorative justice after or during the punishment for the crime. For some more serious crimes, I think there are things that no matter how much you may pity the person, they have a black mark that they can't return from. There may be redemption for a person, but that redemption probably leads well out of the society they forfeited their right to.

The fact that so many people take restorative justice to mean "mercy please, your honor" when the person committing the crime themselves was anything but merciful and is only sorry that they got caught, just perverts the concept and makes it so that we'd be largely better off without it in the first place if its going to get misused 90% of the time.
 

Hellbound Hellhound

kiwifarms.net
People who say this forget sweden had an eugenics program up until the 70s where they sterilized violent criminals and psychopaths, then they are surprised that sweden now lacks those characters and have such low crimes rates
This consideration totally neglects the fact that crime in Sweden hasn't increased since the 70s to a degree which would suggest that "eugenics" is the real reason crime is so low there. You're also neglecting my central argument about why crime is so low in Europe: specifically with regard to how criminal motivation and deterrence works.

There are plenty of countries around the world which implement harsh punishments for offenders (invariably, less civilized ones), and they don't have lower crime as a result. Read the literature of any serious criminologist and you'll understand why; even works as early as On Crimes and Punishments by Cesare Beccaria reject the retributive approach entirely.
 

Hellbound Hellhound

kiwifarms.net
Native population or immigrants? and within immigrants which groups?
I'm assuming you're wanting me to address the immigrant groups who recently arrived from the Middle East, in which case my argument holds up very well. Just about every Middle Eastern country has a more punitive justice system than Sweden. look at the outcomes of each culture, and tell me which one is working better.
 

Cool Dog

A goodboi denied his Wendy's
kiwifarms.net
I'm assuming you're wanting me to address the immigrant groups who recently arrived from the Middle East, in which case my argument holds up very well. Just about every Middle Eastern country has a more punitive justice system than Sweden. look at the outcomes of each culture, and tell me which one is working better.
Dont beat around the bush, you know I mean data from sweden divided by demographic groups, and since the 70s since you say crime is going down
 

TitusVoid

kiwifarms.net
Crime being high in the Middle East is because Islam isn't conducive to peaceful society not because they don't practice restorative justice. The Middle East actually has restorative justice as an option for even murder where you can pay the victims family and be pardoned.

Those who are entitled to qisas have the option of receiving monetary compensation (diyya) or granting pardon to the perpetrator instead.


Also Sweden's low level of crime can be more attributed to its homogeneity but with their increased diversity that's now changing. https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/most-read-2020-sweden-s-new-epidemic-clan-based-crime
 
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