Rugged Individualism, Libertarianism, and Social Darwinism -

Connor Bible

Inferior Enfant Terrible
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You might have heard the phrase. President Herbert Hoover used it a lot during his time in office. The gist of it is that that everyone should be able to help themselves out, and not seek help from the government for economic matters. During the Great Depression, he applied this philosophy, and you can see how well that worked. Though he stressed that this policy wasn't exactly laissez-faire, a lot of modern rugged individualists, particularly libertarians, seem to use it to rationalize assholish behavior. IMHO, I'm okay with a smaller government, but I think that some people need a little help, sometimes for things that are beyond their control.

Just my two cents. Now it's your turn, Kiwis.
 

KatsuKitty

Stone-Cold Bitch
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Well, put it this way. If you don't help out the needy, you set the stage for very expensive and violent rebellion among the lowest classes. The modern welfare state was simply a concession needed to fend off communists.

In the US, we're stuck in this half-ass zone where we don't help anyone out until they're near-death, which ultimately just ends up being more expensive than either helping them properly or simply letting them die. Without a welfare system of some sort, if you weren't born into money, all it takes is one financial disaster to permanently put you on the street. And considering we're hardly meritocratic, you end up privileging those who knew how to bullshit the best hundreds of years ago over actual ability. So that being said, there's still a middle ground that helps people in need without waste, and I view that to be replacing this welfare state with a more efficient $2k yearly negative income tax or basic income for all adults. It'd be cheaper than what we do now, we can encourage saving through a carrot-on-a-stick I'd have to think up, and people would have incentive to make something of themselves since it's not enough to live off anyway. There's also other important things we need to do, like prioritising non-luxury housing and easing draconian zoning codes to reduce cost of rent.

Without a welfare system, you don't ensure the welfare of all individuals in need. Tea Party conservatives have touted just "going to your church" for help; works all fine and dandy until you realise marginalised groups like gays and trans people wouldn't have access to any help or support.

An efficient welfare system ensures that all who need help are provided for. Neither our current approach nor just letting people die is doing that successfully.
 
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chimpburgers

Big league
True & Honest Fan
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I don't think it's a good thing that someone can have their financial life completely destroyed if they go bankrupt as a result of medical bills that were astronomically much higher than anticipated and where the co-pay was high too, like @KatsuKitty mentioned with all the other financial disasters that can do that. There are just some services where I believe that it's necessary to have the government intervene and provide regulation for. I can understand the initial appeal of having a smaller government, less bureaucracy, all of that and conflating that with more personal freedom but I do not find that to be the case. Yes, there are certain parts of the government that could use some reform and updating, like with the post office (I double checked and they are an independent establishment of the executive branch of the US), but does it mean that all welfare and all these benefits that the New Deal, the Great Society and others have given people should be just thrown away like that? Not in my opinion at all and I still believe that there is a necessity for a lot of the things that those helped to bring to the table.
 

Yaoi Huntress Earth

My avatar is problematic.
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I have mixed feelings on the Libertarian party. For every good one that could make things better, there's at least one I have to roll my eyes at. The main tip offs are if they exalt Ron Paul, Ayn Rand and/or Maury Rothbard. The thing with these guys is their belief that The Market will solve all of America's problems if we just hand America over to it.
 

Datiko

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I don't mind living in a less regulated society but I think its a social contract that has to be entered into voluntarily. I have worked under the European Welfare state, Asian welfare states, hyper capitalist city states, and everywhere between. I never minded because I chose to work under the various welfare regimes and I had the mobility to leave if things became bad. I think the Americans who want a small government and more freedom for business would go absolutely insane spending a month in a country like Singapore where you lack even the most basic of consumer or employment protections. Living by the contract sounds great but reality depends on how well you can negotiate.
 

Yaoi Huntress Earth

My avatar is problematic.
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I really dislike social darwinism because it ignores what would really be selected for by evolution (cooperation and mutual support and altruism)
When you think about it, if we had a survival of the fittest, overly individualistic society, not much would really get done. People would be too busy being at each other's throats for power than working together. Heck, even a successful capitalistic society needs to have a strong customer base with money to spare if it wants to keep going. So that means fair and decent paychecks, having some concern for the workers' safety (an injured/dead worker don't have the money for your products) and make sure what you're selling isn't going to hurt the customer (you lose trust and risk dead customers). If you take your jobs away from the country that buys a majority of your products to save a few dollars, it will bite you in the ass because the majority has less money to spend and the out-of-country workers won't buy as much.
 
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polonium

By your genders combined, I am Captain Tumblr
True & Honest Fan
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The idea that capitalism means "everyone is at everyone else's throats" is a total misnomer. A properly free market would encourage cooperation inherently because of competition. You can't be good at everything, so you find the things you're best at and do those, and the things you're not going to do yourself are where you make trade with others.

The really annoying thing I find is that we've tried various types of socialism and collectivism and ended up with famines, mass murder, huge mismanagement of resources, and terrible suffering. They didn't build the Berlin Wall to keep the greedy capitalists out. But as soon as someone suggests trying actual capitalism without the meddling tentacles of government officials, then everyone loses their heads and demands a blueprint solution to every one of societies problems before they'll even contemplate it.
 

Chinaman

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Libertarians and fascists have a very tsundere relationship as despite libertarian's aversion to state regulation and expansion, they deepdown really want "free markets" to end "degeneracy" just as fascists want controlled marketplaces to do it. They both believe capitalism, be it a faggy liberal or hard nosed conservative type of capitalism can somehow save them from slutty women and homosexuals. You know... rather than read on cultures abroad and see how other people handle those problems if you can even call them that.

Most often a libertarian will move toward fascism rather than a fascist move toward libertarian. The cognitive contradiction becomes unexcusable and it's not like you're suddenly going to giveup on being disgusted and offended by loose women and race-mixing. That's what the alt-right is at it's core. A bunch of bi-curious liberteens reading mein kamf.
 

Yaoi Huntress Earth

My avatar is problematic.
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I think it's the horseshoe theory when you notice how some hard free marketers will praise Pinochet like far left people praise Che Guevara mainly on the merit of what system they supported and were against. I have a friend from Chile and he told me that many of the Chileans will tell you what a horrible time it was during Pinochet's reign. Him and his soldiers' abuse of the people, the kind that many of these free-marketers would protest if he was communist/socialist. Che wasn't as pro-freedom as the far left thinks, either, but they both gloss over it to fit their narrative.
 

Sweetpeaa

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Most Libertarians are ambitious young men. They don't have a need for social programs and have confidence they can ''make it''. But youth and health don't last forever. The ever scapegoated ''boomers'' are now clamouring for pharmacare and social programs because age is catching up to them. Many are former Reaganites themselves, who loved such low tax, small government policies in the 80's during their 20's as they reaped the financial benefits of it. But now they are wanting ''help''.
 

Orion Balls

Found the point!
kiwifarms.net
We're all screwed taxwise with the unemployment fraud happening, right now. If filling out a grant form for "front line worker pay" gets my folks an extra $3 an hour, I'm going to do it. It goes straight to them.
E- The money has already been allocated for this reason. Why not try and get it for my people who work hard without complaint?
 

DeadFish

Who's awesome? You are!
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efficient welfare system ensures that all who need help are provided for. Neither our current approach nor just letting people die is doing that successfully.
I've been thinking how to do that.
Back in the day it was the local government that had the garbage trucks pick up trash. Now these days trash collection is done via a private company. The difference is now the structure is publicly funded but privately ran where before the structure was both funded and ran by the government.

What could be done is a company could be the "privatization " of various social programs. So instead of welfare handouts via the state is be done through a private company. This over time would allow the company to usurp and replace the regular government
 
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Sweetpeaa

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The ''welfare lifestyle'' in the USA has been basically a dead horse since Bill Clinton. Neo-Con's still talk about this stuff like it's 1992. People don't get free money, they are put to work by government agencies in fast food jobs or low wage as fast as possible. The real recipients of social programs are actually seniors- they are among the largest. But most people don't know that.

The ''boomers are selfish because they already have theirs'' trope is one that is greatly misunderstood. Like I said before, Boomers are actually quite reliant on government programs and they are for more especially as they even older. Many people don't even know the age range of a boomer, thinking it's someone not quite 50. The majority however are over 65 with the absolute oldest at about 76. If any group was to be a tax burden it would be them.

Be fair to argue with me on this but Millennials (25-40 - their true age range) are more conservative than most people think.
 
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Most Libertarians are ambitious young men. They don't have a need for social programs and have confidence they can ''make it''. But youth and health don't last forever. The ever scapegoated ''boomers'' are now clamouring for pharmacare and social programs because age is catching up to them. Many are former Reaganites themselves, who loved such low tax, small government policies in the 80's during their 20's as they reaped the financial benefits of it. But now they are wanting ''help''.
I’ve heard this posited as a “gotcha” against libertarians, but I think it speaks more to how the baby boomers have always implemented policies which effectively “transferred wealth” to their generation.
 
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