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Serious LGBT Discussion

Discussion in 'Deep Thoughts' started by bearycool, Sep 18, 2015.

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    1. The thing that sucks the most about being LGBT is the radically different outcomes people get trying to deal with it and how the people close to you react.

      You might get lucky and live in a place and have a family that accepts you easily, and no drama or angst about who you are.

      Or you can live your whole life trying to kill a piece of yourself out of desperation to hide it, or suffer the consequences of being caught and punished.

      As long as this disparity exists, LGBT rights and movements are going to be needed to try and ask people to accept us. But that’s the problem: like any movement, it loses sight of its goal, gets co-opted by other shit and gets bogged down in identity politics and caring more about what Chik-fil-a does rather than how regular people see them. It sucks but at least it’s made progress.
       
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    2. I don’t know if anyone has asked this already. For a while, I was thinking of going to a pride parade, to see what it’s like. But I’ve heard that they can be somewhat strange at times.

      Have any gay kiwis been at a pride parade, and what was your experience with it?
       
      #642 Gingervitis, Jun 19, 2018 at 8:35 AM
      Last edited: Jun 19, 2018 at 9:53 AM
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    3. Oof. Christ. I really wasn't trying to create this conversation, simply because it's way off topic and more about politics than Chris. So I apologize. I'm just gonna say my piece and probably try to wind this down, because I feel like we could probably debate and discuss this for ages. It's okay if we disagree after all.

      My point, I guess, is that the theory is compromised because it's been influenced by identity politics and perverted beyond just "treating a mental illness" to the point that people claim it isn't a fucking mental illness anymore. I'm saying that the "adaptation theory" is outdated and is only accepted because it plays a part in normalizing this illness. Personally, I think these people need actual help. Look at the statistics, the suicide rates... If nearly half of the patients you as a doctor are treating inevitably commit suicide, despite treatment? Then I think your treatment is a failure and we need to go back to the drawing board. And that's the reality of GID. More than 40% of the people who suffer from that condition will take their own life, regardless of "treatment".

      I know. It was a joke mate.

      As for historic transgenderism, the issue we're facing now is this political climate bogged down with identity politics where the "oppression Olympics" exist. It's not so cut and dry anymore. A german scientist (circa 1918 iirc) named Hirschfeld came up with his "adaptation theory", that supported those who wanted to live according to the gender they felt most aligned with. It's the same philosophy that is followed today, despite a lack of results. Even in the past it was controversial. For instance, A 1979 study out of Johns Hopkins called sex reassignment surgeries into question by suggesting that psychosocial outcomes in transgender patients who underwent reassignment surgery were not better than those who went without surgery. The study led to the closure of the Johns Hopkins Gender Identity Clinic and an end to the sex reassignment surgeries offered there. This is a debate as old as the illness itself, but my issue is it's current tie into politics.

      In modern times, we're so convinced that this is the way to treat these people that instead of even considering other treatments (because that would be hateful and discriminatory), we're resigning to let nearly half of the afflicted live with a condition that will certainly end their lives. How fucked is that? Instead of treating GID as a mental illness, it's being normalized and legitimized as a "gender". The problem is that the politics and treatment have been entangled to the point that the cultural zeitgeist has decided a sky-high suicide rate is an acceptable price to pay for their modern-day progressive sexual ideology. And I think it's a fucking tragedy. That's all.
       
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    4. If the theory was originally developed independently, then that portion can't really be compromised after the fact. You can't retroactively change the justification for something.

      Now people might've tacked on additional bullshit since then, or perhaps some elements of the original theory are given inappropriate weight (to falsely support a conclusion for political reasons). But that additional material can and should just be discarded.

      It would be incorrect to discount a theory because people later came along and added irrelevant bullshit to it. You just toss out the irrelevant bullshit and keep on going on until the original theory is confirmed or discredited.

      Now, if that's impossible to do because politics has made it infeasible, that's definitely a problem. And I think we've reached that point. Trannies have pushed and pushed and pushed until the only reasonable action by people who don't give a shit (99% of the population) is to let them do whatever they fuck they want, regardless of evidence or medical efficacy or safety or ethics or pretty much anything.

      But that still doesn't mean the original theory is wrong. It just means we don't know. And that's an important distinction to keep in mind. We simply don't know how legitimate transgenderism is. That doesn't mean that it's illegitimate or that it's legitimate. It's a third category altogether.

      I do think there's something to still investigate though (if it were politically possible). I think we've seen a rare, but persistent quirk among people and that's worth investigating. We just probably can't do that any anymore because politics has ruined it all. And in particular, the politics of the people this investigation would help.

      I talked about this elsewhere.
      That's the wrong metric.

      The metric isn't "do a lot of people die from this?" it's "do less people die from this than the alternative?"

      Plenty of people die of chemo, but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes the only/best option.
       
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      Marvin

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    5. I wasn't trying to say that the politics somehow ruined the theory. That was my bad. My point was that the theory was shaky to begin with, and now we're beyond questioning it, cuz' muh politics. The original treatment methodology (the adaptation theory) has shown little proof of working, but it's so entangled in political bullshit that no one is willing to try anything else out of fear of being labeled "transphobic" for suggesting that the proud and strong transsexuals might be mentally ill. The theory was flawed to begin with (and has been debated as such since it's inception) but only now have we reached the point that saying "I don't think this will help you, let's try medication and therapy instead" is considered discrimination. It's insane.

      But it's a perfectly fine metric. We're not dealing with cancer. We're dealing with a mental health issue, so the comparison is illogical. When the biggest threat a mental illness poses is suicide, comparing the suicide rates pre/post treatment gives us some insight into how effective the treatment is working. If there's literally no change, then what's the point? Are we just putting these people out to pasture? That's how it feels.

      Let's instead compare with another mental illness. In untreated vs. treated bipolar disorder (when treated with Lithium) the suicide rate drops 85%. In untreated vs. treated gender identity disorder, the suicide rate remains unchanged. That's not a great sign that the treatment is very effective imo.

      If people who are overwhelmingly at risk of suicide are literally unaffected by your "treatment" then what's the fucking point? There's no sign that it's helping these people...
       
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    6. My phrasing was carefully chosen. "do less people die from this [read: after transitioning] than the alternative [read: no transitioning]?" is the metric. Does transitioning improve things? If so, then it's the right treatment.
       
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      Marvin

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    7. That's my entire point though. It doesn't seem to improve things. You could make a "quality of life" argument, but the fact is that quality of life is fairly irrelevant when the patient shoots themselves in the head.

      To answer your question: "Do less people die after transitioning than without transitioning?", the statistics would say no. The mortality rate appears to be the same regardless of transitional treatment.
       
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    8. Source?

      I wouldn't be surprised if the statistics weren't strongly clear, because politics fucks up our ability to collect such statistics.

      I doubt we'll ever get a thorough, well funded university study on trans issues (ones that would lay these debates to rest) ever again.
       
      Marvin

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    9. I've linked the sources below. If you need more, just let me know. And yeah, unfortunately I fear you might be right.

      Also as a correction, some of the studies linked below actually seem to show that transitioning actually increases the suicide rate. I missed some of these, admittedly. Either way...

      http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
      https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
       
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      #649 Mathas, Jun 22, 2018 at 2:55 PM
      Last edited: Jun 22, 2018 at 3:00 PM
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    10. So the William's Institute one is interesting.

      There seems to be a strong correlation between people who want gender surgery/hormones and suicides, compared to people who don't want surgery. People who don't want surgery/treatment consistently kill themselves less than people who do want surgery.

      For the people who want surgery/hormones: actually having the surgery/hormones doesn't always (but sometimes does) increase that risk of suicide. Sometimes it stays flat. (Which isn't an improvement, of course.) But sometimes it actually does reduce the risk of suicide, like ftm's getting a fake dong installed drops the suicide rate from 56% to 46%.

      To me, this says that the people who are gung ho on putting their bits in the blender are fucking bonkers. But it still might help in some cases. It tells me that we need aggressive gatekeeping. (Well, and to seek out alternatives, but barring that, surgery may ultimately be the best option.)

      An increase in suicides after surgeries could be chalked up to poor gatekeeping, for example.

      I don't mean to seem excessively pro-surgery. The thing is, I'm incredibly biased. I'm trying to eliminate that bias by offloading my responsibility onto the scientific process. If it's numbers, then you can't cry bias.

      We need a bajillion more studies on the subject. But we won't get those studies for reasons already discussed.
       
      Marvin

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    11. Yeah, it's definitely more complicated than I initially portrayed it, but that's a result of generalization and trying not to complicate the subject. That's my bad, as I was trying to keep things more surface level in order to not spiral out of control off-topic more than I felt I already had lol. The thread move makes me feel better about that though.

      There's definitely certain factors that seem to lead to an increase in suicide risk, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like much lowers it to what I'd call an "acceptable" level, which is what bothers me I think. Very few populations seem to get away with a marginally better rate post treatment, and that's kind of horrifying to me. Poor gatekeeping could definitely contribute, but I think that the statistics still don't look very good for the treatment as a whole with such intact suicide rates. It's worrying, you know? I feel like these people deserve better, and that instead of being treated in their best interest, they're being used as political pawns in a way. That probably sounds insane, but idk.

      And I wouldn't say I'm against surgery or transitional treatment. I just think that a huge portion of the people who are allowed to get it (with informed consent) may not actually need it clinically. There might be other alternatives for some people. I feel that transformative surgery (and even hormone therapy) should be withheld for the cases where there are no other options left, if only because it doesn't seem to improve the quality of life long-term (reflected in the mortality rate) for many affected. Therapy and medication could help a lot of these cases but we'll never really know because of the political minefield that's propped up around the topic.

      As for the lack of studies, it's a fucking shame, but I'd say you're right.
       
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