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Serious LGBT Discussion

Discussion in 'Deep Thoughts' started by bearycool, Sep 18, 2015.

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    1. The thing that sucks the most about being LGBT is the radically different outcomes people get trying to deal with it and how the people close to you react.

      You might get lucky and live in a place and have a family that accepts you easily, and no drama or angst about who you are.

      Or you can live your whole life trying to kill a piece of yourself out of desperation to hide it, or suffer the consequences of being caught and punished.

      As long as this disparity exists, LGBT rights and movements are going to be needed to try and ask people to accept us. But that’s the problem: like any movement, it loses sight of its goal, gets co-opted by other shit and gets bogged down in identity politics and caring more about what Chik-fil-a does rather than how regular people see them. It sucks but at least it’s made progress.
       
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      Unseemly and Feral

      Unseemly and Feral My dreads are actually a hat

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    2. I don’t know if anyone has asked this already. For a while, I was thinking of going to a pride parade, to see what it’s like. But I’ve heard that they can be somewhat strange at times.

      Have any gay kiwis been at a pride parade, and what was your experience with it?
       
      #642 Gingervitis, Jun 19, 2018
      Last edited: Jun 19, 2018
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    3. Oof. Christ. I really wasn't trying to create this conversation, simply because it's way off topic and more about politics than Chris. So I apologize. I'm just gonna say my piece and probably try to wind this down, because I feel like we could probably debate and discuss this for ages. It's okay if we disagree after all.

      My point, I guess, is that the theory is compromised because it's been influenced by identity politics and perverted beyond just "treating a mental illness" to the point that people claim it isn't a fucking mental illness anymore. I'm saying that the "adaptation theory" is outdated and is only accepted because it plays a part in normalizing this illness. Personally, I think these people need actual help. Look at the statistics, the suicide rates... If nearly half of the patients you as a doctor are treating inevitably commit suicide, despite treatment? Then I think your treatment is a failure and we need to go back to the drawing board. And that's the reality of GID. More than 40% of the people who suffer from that condition will take their own life, regardless of "treatment".

      I know. It was a joke mate.

      As for historic transgenderism, the issue we're facing now is this political climate bogged down with identity politics where the "oppression Olympics" exist. It's not so cut and dry anymore. A german scientist (circa 1918 iirc) named Hirschfeld came up with his "adaptation theory", that supported those who wanted to live according to the gender they felt most aligned with. It's the same philosophy that is followed today, despite a lack of results. Even in the past it was controversial. For instance, A 1979 study out of Johns Hopkins called sex reassignment surgeries into question by suggesting that psychosocial outcomes in transgender patients who underwent reassignment surgery were not better than those who went without surgery. The study led to the closure of the Johns Hopkins Gender Identity Clinic and an end to the sex reassignment surgeries offered there. This is a debate as old as the illness itself, but my issue is it's current tie into politics.

      In modern times, we're so convinced that this is the way to treat these people that instead of even considering other treatments (because that would be hateful and discriminatory), we're resigning to let nearly half of the afflicted live with a condition that will certainly end their lives. How fucked is that? Instead of treating GID as a mental illness, it's being normalized and legitimized as a "gender". The problem is that the politics and treatment have been entangled to the point that the cultural zeitgeist has decided a sky-high suicide rate is an acceptable price to pay for their modern-day progressive sexual ideology. And I think it's a fucking tragedy. That's all.
       
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      Mathas

      Mathas Fiend Seeker

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    4. If the theory was originally developed independently, then that portion can't really be compromised after the fact. You can't retroactively change the justification for something.

      Now people might've tacked on additional bullshit since then, or perhaps some elements of the original theory are given inappropriate weight (to falsely support a conclusion for political reasons). But that additional material can and should just be discarded.

      It would be incorrect to discount a theory because people later came along and added irrelevant bullshit to it. You just toss out the irrelevant bullshit and keep on going on until the original theory is confirmed or discredited.

      Now, if that's impossible to do because politics has made it infeasible, that's definitely a problem. And I think we've reached that point. Trannies have pushed and pushed and pushed until the only reasonable action by people who don't give a shit (99% of the population) is to let them do whatever they fuck they want, regardless of evidence or medical efficacy or safety or ethics or pretty much anything.

      But that still doesn't mean the original theory is wrong. It just means we don't know. And that's an important distinction to keep in mind. We simply don't know how legitimate transgenderism is. That doesn't mean that it's illegitimate or that it's legitimate. It's a third category altogether.

      I do think there's something to still investigate though (if it were politically possible). I think we've seen a rare, but persistent quirk among people and that's worth investigating. We just probably can't do that any anymore because politics has ruined it all. And in particular, the politics of the people this investigation would help.

      I talked about this elsewhere.
      That's the wrong metric.

      The metric isn't "do a lot of people die from this?" it's "do less people die from this than the alternative?"

      Plenty of people die of chemo, but that doesn't mean it isn't sometimes the only/best option.
       
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      Marvin

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    5. I wasn't trying to say that the politics somehow ruined the theory. That was my bad. My point was that the theory was shaky to begin with, and now we're beyond questioning it, cuz' muh politics. The original treatment methodology (the adaptation theory) has shown little proof of working, but it's so entangled in political bullshit that no one is willing to try anything else out of fear of being labeled "transphobic" for suggesting that the proud and strong transsexuals might be mentally ill. The theory was flawed to begin with (and has been debated as such since it's inception) but only now have we reached the point that saying "I don't think this will help you, let's try medication and therapy instead" is considered discrimination. It's insane.

      But it's a perfectly fine metric. We're not dealing with cancer. We're dealing with a mental health issue, so the comparison is illogical. When the biggest threat a mental illness poses is suicide, comparing the suicide rates pre/post treatment gives us some insight into how effective the treatment is working. If there's literally no change, then what's the point? Are we just putting these people out to pasture? That's how it feels.

      Let's instead compare with another mental illness. In untreated vs. treated bipolar disorder (when treated with Lithium) the suicide rate drops 85%. In untreated vs. treated gender identity disorder, the suicide rate remains unchanged. That's not a great sign that the treatment is very effective imo.

      If people who are overwhelmingly at risk of suicide are literally unaffected by your "treatment" then what's the fucking point? There's no sign that it's helping these people...
       
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      Mathas

      Mathas Fiend Seeker

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    6. My phrasing was carefully chosen. "do less people die from this [read: after transitioning] than the alternative [read: no transitioning]?" is the metric. Does transitioning improve things? If so, then it's the right treatment.
       
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      Marvin

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    7. That's my entire point though. It doesn't seem to improve things. You could make a "quality of life" argument, but the fact is that quality of life is fairly irrelevant when the patient shoots themselves in the head.

      To answer your question: "Do less people die after transitioning than without transitioning?", the statistics would say no. The mortality rate appears to be the same regardless of transitional treatment.
       
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      Mathas

      Mathas Fiend Seeker

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    8. Source?

      I wouldn't be surprised if the statistics weren't strongly clear, because politics fucks up our ability to collect such statistics.

      I doubt we'll ever get a thorough, well funded university study on trans issues (ones that would lay these debates to rest) ever again.
       
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      Marvin

      Christorical Figure True & Honest Fan

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    9. I've linked the sources below. If you need more, just let me know. And yeah, unfortunately I fear you might be right.

      Also as a correction, some of the studies linked below actually seem to show that transitioning actually increases the suicide rate. I missed some of these, admittedly. Either way...

      http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885
      https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf
      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
       
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      #649 Mathas, Jun 22, 2018
      Last edited: Jun 22, 2018
      Mathas

      Mathas Fiend Seeker

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    10. So the William's Institute one is interesting.

      There seems to be a strong correlation between people who want gender surgery/hormones and suicides, compared to people who don't want surgery. People who don't want surgery/treatment consistently kill themselves less than people who do want surgery.

      For the people who want surgery/hormones: actually having the surgery/hormones doesn't always (but sometimes does) increase that risk of suicide. Sometimes it stays flat. (Which isn't an improvement, of course.) But sometimes it actually does reduce the risk of suicide, like ftm's getting a fake dong installed drops the suicide rate from 56% to 46%.

      To me, this says that the people who are gung ho on putting their bits in the blender are fucking bonkers. But it still might help in some cases. It tells me that we need aggressive gatekeeping. (Well, and to seek out alternatives, but barring that, surgery may ultimately be the best option.)

      An increase in suicides after surgeries could be chalked up to poor gatekeeping, for example.

      I don't mean to seem excessively pro-surgery. The thing is, I'm incredibly biased. I'm trying to eliminate that bias by offloading my responsibility onto the scientific process. If it's numbers, then you can't cry bias.

      We need a bajillion more studies on the subject. But we won't get those studies for reasons already discussed.
       
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      Marvin

      Christorical Figure True & Honest Fan

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    11. Yeah, it's definitely more complicated than I initially portrayed it, but that's a result of generalization and trying not to complicate the subject. That's my bad, as I was trying to keep things more surface level in order to not spiral out of control off-topic more than I felt I already had lol. The thread move makes me feel better about that though.

      There's definitely certain factors that seem to lead to an increase in suicide risk, but unfortunately it doesn't seem like much lowers it to what I'd call an "acceptable" level, which is what bothers me I think. Very few populations seem to get away with a marginally better rate post treatment, and that's kind of horrifying to me. Poor gatekeeping could definitely contribute, but I think that the statistics still don't look very good for the treatment as a whole with such intact suicide rates. It's worrying, you know? I feel like these people deserve better, and that instead of being treated in their best interest, they're being used as political pawns in a way. That probably sounds insane, but idk.

      And I wouldn't say I'm against surgery or transitional treatment. I just think that a huge portion of the people who are allowed to get it (with informed consent) may not actually need it clinically. There might be other alternatives for some people. I feel that transformative surgery (and even hormone therapy) should be withheld for the cases where there are no other options left, if only because it doesn't seem to improve the quality of life long-term (reflected in the mortality rate) for many affected. Therapy and medication could help a lot of these cases but we'll never really know because of the political minefield that's propped up around the topic.

      As for the lack of studies, it's a fucking shame, but I'd say you're right.
       
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      Mathas

      Mathas Fiend Seeker

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    12. We're definitely enthusiastically handing out treatments that probably should've taken 200 years of study before they got rolled out.
       
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      Marvin

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    13. God, it's so weird reading my comments on this thread several years later! I have really changed as a homo since my beginnings here on this forum.

      Also, I appreciate all the support for this thread! It means a lot that what is being said is still continuing to be discussed, even years down the line :)
       
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      bearycool

      bearycool The Movie Night Queen
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    14. It's really frustrating that people reject the idea of alternative treatments for transness. Like, you could either take an asprin for your headache or you could have this caveman open a hole in your skull with his hand-crafted sharpened rock. Surgery sucks and there's got to be a better way.
       
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      Johnny Bravo

      Johnny Bravo Bravokin

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    15. The way I see it is that instead of searching for a cure, we're stuck treating the symptoms with little success. I think that's why I find it so frustrating. Instead of researching into ways to truly change these people's lives for the better, we're putting a band-aid on the issue and just hoping things work out, and all the while these people are dying. It's not a good enough solution imo.
       
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      Mathas

      Mathas Fiend Seeker

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    16. I'm not sure that I agree.

      Skimming the studies, it seems that conclusions largely talk about social exclusion and rejection, and waiting for 200 years before rolling out the possibility of gender reassignment treatment would not exactly diminish those numbers. Social change takes time, and we're only now starting to actually examine this issue, but in between you can't exactly just not provide the option when it's needed. Here's a study about post-transition satisfaction https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4261554/ which shows that a large part of the people were actually pretty satisfied by their results, and that suicide statistics for those people actually did go down considerably. Does that mean that the world's model for treatment of transgendered patients is perfect now? No, definitely not, but we're dealing with a phenomenon that we've only really started to examine pretty recently, with pretty much all the relevant studies being pretty recent, and, in my opinion, an international consensus still under construction, so there's going to be a lot of examining of the current model and improving it, but I don't think that that means we should outright withhold the options for treatment from people who might genuinely need it.

      As far as "informed consent" goes, I absolutely think it's a bad idea. It's not really present here for that reason. Over here you pretty much have to go through medical channels if you want to transition, and I think that's the best way of going about it, since medical professionals can be a lot more discerning between what's autogynephilia and what's genuinely gender dysphoria. If you treat someone who just gets off on the idea of being a woman with the treatment you use on patients who are depressed as a result of gender dysphoria, that's obviously not really a recipe for success, but I disagree with the idea that gender dysphoria is something psychologists can just talk out of people. Maybe that's the case for a few people, but in general, it's a pretty persistent disorder, and like clinical depression, not one you can just get people to stop feeling by telling them to.
       
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      #656 Rio, Jun 26, 2018
      Last edited: Jun 26, 2018
      Rio

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    17. I don't know, I think the WPATH standards are pretty reasonable (from the perspective of a layman, anyway), but I'm seeing people just wholly dismiss their recommendations. It makes me think people really aren't taking this issue seriously.

      Maybe more studies won't get people to pull their heads out of their asses entirely, but maybe it'd help people understand that this issue is more complicated than they realize.
       
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      Marvin

      Christorical Figure True & Honest Fan

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    18. And therein lies my bugbear with informed consent. If a professional tells you "No you shouldn't do this. It's not a good idea" and the patient can go "Fuck you, yes it is" then to me that implies that there's some oversight that's missing. Of course I might be completely wrong about that, and maybe informed consent is the way forward, but to me it's always seemed like it's too liberal in putting people in lifelong treatments that might be completely wrong for them specifically. I feel like that's a very serious decision and I don't feel like some degree of gatekeeping is really out of place in who gets to undertake this arduous treatment. Of course I think the patient should definitely have a say in it too. Obviously if a doctor says "I think transitioning would help you" that doesn't mean that a patient should be forced to undergo treatment. Over here, a specialist can make that suggestion and help you get treatment, but you get to sort of choose how far you want to go with it as a patient, and if you do start to transition and end up feeling like it isn't for you they'll also help you with the detransitioning process. I think that's in general a better set-up then just putting the full power of how they should be treated in the hands of a patient, who generally speaking is probably not a medical expert or a psychologist. But obviously I'm not a specialist myself, so it's all just theorizing on my part.
       
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      Rio

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    19. It's fun but if you don't like almost-nude men dancing around you might not enjoy the mood.

      I'm not as pessimistic. We see a lot of Political Correctness shit in Academia leak out onto the internet and so it looks like theres an epidemic or that it entirely controls the schools (and a lot of students actions don't help that perception) but a lot of studies are still happening largely unimpeded by it.

      Not to mention that even if it was the case, it's not like its so ingrained its impossible to remove. Just look at how higher education in the west started, it was all built by the churches basically, but now Colleges and Universities are secular in nature rather than being overtly religious.
       
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      Feline Darkmage

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    20. As I have gotten a little older I have begun to notice a disparity between younger LGBT people and older ones. I usually despise generation warriors and I think the idea of generalising baby boomers or millennial's is idiotic but on this I have seen enough of a correlation as to confirm my theory, to myself at least. The difference is that older LGBT people are fucking insane. They posses a singular paranoia, despite the fact that they live in a very tolerant society, and with this comes a swath of problems such as risky behaviour. Older LGBT people (who am i kidding its old gays more than the others) take such phenomenal risks with their own and others health. Condoms are almost unheard of and when presented to them they almost always react with disdain. The paranoia also leads to a weird mentality of semi possessiveness and 'hump and dump'. My theory is that since it was difficult to impossible in the past to have a stable homosexual relationship many of these men developed an attitude of remaining single forever but also maintaining a sexually active life. This leads many older guys to spread disease rapidly but also to make them display behaviour similar to a nice guy or an incel. They seem to have no concept of romantic love.

      The final and biggest complaint i have against them is their obsession with youth. Many of my gay friends will show me messages they get from men in their 40's and upwards going on incel like tirades against them for turning them down because of the age gaps. These old fuckers talk shit about how young people are so shallow because they wont get up on the the fucking crypt keeper and yet they are the ones with 'no one over 20' on their grindr.

      I think these older gays are a plague on the gay community and i think the idea of the older gay man initiating the younger one (like the spartan soldiers) should be demolished. It has been romanticised by many in the past, including Milo, but it is a hollow stereotype. These older men offer nothing to younger gays, they are often terrible at sex, teach nothing but bad and potentially dangerous outlooks on sexual and mental health and worst of all provide a totally one sided sexual relationship where the older steals the youth of the younger, like a vampire.

      You are better off stumbling through your first sexual contact in ignorance with someone of a similar age rather than have some old fart 'guide' you through it.
       
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      Toucan

      Toucan I am Toucan hear me caw!

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