Serious LGBT Discussion -

Fagatron

ArchFedora
kiwifarms.net
Because their community is based on a singular trait and nothing else. It’d be like starting a community over having red hair. People have different lives in spite of that one unifying trait.
Yes and no.

I'm among the first to line up and call the Pride movement degenerate and disgusting, but on the other hand I do (albeit unwillingly) see some things we often do have in common.

Even if raised in secular households, almost all of us of a certain age have had direct and very aggressive run ins with the abrahamic religions often leading to hostility to organized religion. Most LGBT over thirty have been the butt of jokes if not the victim of violence for not fitting into the social norms of the time leading to them being more willing than most to cast aside traditions and traditional values. Its not that hard to empathise with marginalised groups or peoples when you have previously been one yourself.

I'm not saying conservative LGB do not exist,they do and I would consider myself among them but theres enough common shared experiences of being the outsider among most of the older of us that they do tend to lean a certain way politically to drive a platform.

That said; Generation Z in the west (ot parts of Europe at least) on the other hand could be the first of us to potentially grow up and live without ever encountering direct powerful open hostility to their existence; I will be interested to see what they become once they grow up out of the tumblr phase.

You'll note I say LGB and exclude the T. I remain constant in the belief that is something radically different to the rest of the movement that should never have been included under the banner in the first place.
 
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The Gay Banana

You're all dossers.
kiwifarms.net
Amongst people where I live I have found it harder to come out conservative views than I ever did coming out as gay. It makes no sense if you have any idea about history. Historically in the western world, liberalisation of gay rights have come from the centre-left and the centre-right in equal measures since most of the time they are non partisan issues. The majority of conservatives, at least in Europe, are progressives who believe that you can still be a conservative but also extend equal rights to marginalised groups.
 

Dennis_Prager

kiwifarms.net
You'll note I say LGB and exclude the T. I remain constant in the belief that is something radically different to the rest of the movement that should never have been included under the banner in the first place.
LMFAO what an asshole, mate.

Yes, GTFO trannies, you're too different! Let's just backstab these poor fucking people who can barely stand for themselves outta our shit, it'll paint a very good-looking image for us. Inclusivity of what is different? When has the LGBT movement ever stood for that?

I'm not sure on my stance on this either, but the way you framed your position was funny.
 

yahooligan

Get ready for a surprise!
kiwifarms.net
I dunno, I have to agree on the tranny bit. A lot of trans people consider themselves "straight" (i.e. I'm a boy now and I'm still attracted to girls, and vice versa) so it's confusing to mix that in. L,G and B are orientations. Tran is a different thing that's supposedly independent of orientation. So kinda definitionally, it doesn't fit with L/G/B. The downside of this reasoning is that it allows goofy shit like pansexuals (dude, you're bi, bro, just chill, chicks dig that) and all the other nonsense Tumblr orientations to still creep in.

My hot take? Trannies that just want to live normal lives and not be exceptional are welcome with open arms, and I will back them up in a street fight. Troons and transtrenders are to be removed on sight -- they're the embodiment of "trans identity erasure", amiright?

Don't even get me started with "queer+." A lot of us Kiwis probably eyeroll over that one. As far as I'm concerned, if there ain't a dick-in-the-butt, nor some scissor-sharpening, it ain't queer. That has just become a catch-all, "I'm not like other X" thing that renders it meaningless. As we've already seen in the "Trendercore" post.
 
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*extremely mom voice*

I'm at the combination burger zone/wizard store
kiwifarms.net
You'll note I say LGB and exclude the T. I remain constant in the belief that is something radically different to the rest of the movement that should never have been included under the banner in the first place.
I disagree. When people talk about what it means to be trans, people (on all sides of the discussion) leave out the connection between the T and the LGB.

To this day, some people still understand transness as a kind of "super duper extra gay," like a guy is such an unmanly twink that he just decides to live as a woman, or a woman is just such an absolute diesel that everybody thinks she's a man at first glance anyway.

Gay rights started becoming a big political issue during the AIDS crisis, with activists claiming that the CDC's disinterest in the disease was fueled by homophobia. Today we think of "LBGT+" as an identity, but it was formed as, and functions as, a political bloc based on shared political interest. The AIDS crisis is what solidified that. In that sense, gay men and trans women have a lot in common, because they share political interests. Both groups have elevated HIV risk, both get called faggots, both go through life having broken some of the most fundamental rules of masculinity.

I'd bet half the normies you meet don't know the difference between a butch lesbian and a trans man.

Trans people often downplay this connection because it doesn't fit the popular mode of gender theory--though FtMs are more likely to continue hanging out with lesbians if they're into women. Even conservatives will elide this connection, because they want to portray trannies as this new, alien phenomenon. There's no shock value attached to gayness in current year.

So being gay and being trans are not the same thing, but they've found common ground. The current schism has a lot to do with medicalization. The big push for access to transition procedures and medications has alienated a lot of gay people, because all that has nothing to do with them. They get little or nothing from a ton of political noise. I think a lot of gay people, gay men especially, feel that they've made it. They pay lip service to trans issues, but they won't stick their neck out and risk what they've gained.
 

Fagatron

ArchFedora
kiwifarms.net
LMFAO what an asshole, mate.

Yes, GTFO trannies, you're too different! Let's just backstab these poor fucking people who can barely stand for themselves outta our shit, it'll paint a very good-looking image for us. Inclusivity of what is different? When has the LGBT movement ever stood for that?

I'm not sure on my stance on this either, but the way you framed your position was funny.
There's a lot of reasons I view the trans movement as a problem but to focus on the main two for me.

1. It openly flies in the face of everything we know about human biology, psychology and our ability to treat gender dysphoria.

Facts are not bigotry.

Cutting your balls off and taking tons of hormones does not counter years of socialization, your physical attributes like height and musculature and your vastly different body chemistry. As of writing, we cannot change a person's sex no matter how hard we try. I don't doubt for a moment that gender dysphoria must be an awful situation, but I think it's crueler to feed the delusion that anyone can become anything on this front. As much as I might wish to look like Colin Farrel in his younger years, that's just never going to happen.

I also think the idea is incredibly fatalistic and goes against the second wave feminist ideas I do agree with; the trans movement (especially groups within it like the Mermaids and the residents of La Zorra) has a horrible tendency to claim that specific behaviors are directly linked to sex. If you're a boy who likes dollies, you're a girl rather than a boy who simply doesn't follow masculine stereotypes. This goes against the liberal western idea that within reason excluding that which we consider crimes or are simply impossible, we can live as we choose. The trans ideology insists that specific behaviours are directly correlated to sex; and how long did women spend trying to get away from being viewed soley as the cook and mother again?

2. It proves the LGB opponents claim that we choose to be gay correct.

Part of the gay rights movement has long been that we are born this way, and the standard charge against opponents being "When did you choose to be straight?". We are now at a stage in society where men and women can choose to change sex and as a result, their sexual preferences (a MtF remains interested in girls, so they've chosen to become a lesbian).

This might seem ridiculous, but it is actually quite big when you think about it. One of Tumblr gender ideologies most dangerous products from their notions of gender fluidity is that we can choose every aspect of ourselves, even if it flies in the face of our genetically hard-wired behaviors and core biology.

We've not really seen where this is going yet, but the aftershocks could be considered as we in America and Europe are increasingly moving towards ever more conservative and right wing governments. The runner up to the Presidency Marianne La Penn of the National Rally in France, for instance, is fairly indifferent to gays despite her constant cries for a return to family values; but her niece and designated successor is a fanatical rabid Catholic fresh from the 15th century who has brought this point up before as justification why LGB need to be curbed and convinced to "become normal".

This sentiment has likewise in Europe been openly shared by other upcoming and major parties in their respective territories like Alternative for Germany and the Brexit Party (Anne Widdecombe especially has spent years going on about it).

The support of the trans may have been useful at the time, but inadvertantly has led and influenced a school of political and philosophical thinking that will backfire very badly on us.

It's too late for us to be effectivley distanced from it this generation and perhaps even the next, many people see trans and LGB as being linked if not even one and the same. But that doesn't mean we have to keep pouring gasoline on the dumpster fire we made.
 

WoodlumHax

professional stooge
kiwifarms.net
Anyone have any lgbt bands or musicians they particularly like or dislike? And if so, can you explain why?
I personally like a little bit of Pansy Division sometimes, they're funny guys and I think they sound good, almost like an openly gay version of Me First and the Gimme Gimmes
 
P

PL 001

Guest
kiwifarms.net
Anyone have any lgbt bands or musicians they particularly like or dislike? And if so, can you explain why?
I personally like a little bit of Pansy Division sometimes, they're funny guys and I think they sound good, almost like an openly gay version of Me First and the Gimme Gimmes
Kind of a guilty pleasure (okay not kind of, they are a guilty pleasure), but I do like The Pet Shop Boys. The lyrics aren't anything to rave about, but if you want some good electronic dance music to groove out to, these guys are some of the best. They're not about shoving their gayness in your face constantly, and they rarely get political, and when they do, it's in a lighthearted fashion (I'm With Stupid) so that helps as well.
 

Ted_Breakfast

What'll it be, boys?
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Anyone have any lgbt bands or musicians they particularly like or dislike? And if so, can you explain why?
I personally like a little bit of Pansy Division sometimes, they're funny guys and I think they sound good, almost like an openly gay version of Me First and the Gimme Gimmes
Cole Porter is nice.
 
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Surf and TERF

Ouisandrê
kiwifarms.net
Anyone have any lgbt bands or musicians they particularly like or dislike? And if so, can you explain why?
I personally like a little bit of Pansy Division sometimes, they're funny guys and I think they sound good, almost like an openly gay version of Me First and the Gimme Gimmes
Elton John and Queen, but only because I grew up on them.

2. It proves the LGB opponents claim that we choose to be gay correct.

Part of the gay rights movement has long been that we are born this way, and the standard charge against opponents being "When did you choose to be straight?". We are now at a stage in society where men and women can choose to change sex and as a result, their sexual preferences (a MtF remains interested in girls, so they've chosen to become a lesbian).
I agree wholeheartedly with your first point. In regard to people choosing to change their sex, I suspect that a large portion of La Zorra types (who are probably also transtrenders) might be confusing an inability to fit into socially accepted gender roles with dysphoria. There is a bizarre, underlying sexism in the way some of these people present themselves.

It's too late for us to be effectivley distanced from it this generation and perhaps even the next, many people see trans and LGB as being linked if not even one and the same. But that doesn't mean we have to keep pouring gasoline on the dumpster fire we made.
How would these things get separated though? The closest thing I've witnessed to an organized LGBT social group is a tiny club that is run by my local church. It keeps in touch with other local LGBT organizations, but the combined influence of every small club in this town is on par with a city hall. They have very little social media influence and can't reach beyond their own district. Trans people are significant part of the headcount and it's difficult to stay coordinated without blindly supporting everyone within the group.
 

OtterTrash

Don’t take yourself so seriously darling
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Anyone have any lgbt bands or musicians they particularly like or dislike? And if so, can you explain why?
I personally like a little bit of Pansy Division sometimes, they're funny guys and I think they sound good, almost like an openly gay version of Me First and the Gimme Gimmes
SSION has some great music, Earthquake is one of his best songs in my opinion. His newest stuff isn’t too bad either.
 

exhausted

Not mad on the internet, just sad on the internet.
kiwifarms.net
Anyone have any lgbt bands or musicians they particularly like or dislike? And if so, can you explain why?
I personally like a little bit of Pansy Division sometimes, they're funny guys and I think they sound good, almost like an openly gay version of Me First and the Gimme Gimmes
i fucking hate Against Me!
its shitty punk that only gets attention because the singer is a troon
 
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Fagatron

ArchFedora
kiwifarms.net
How would these things get separated though? The closest thing I've witnessed to an organized LGBT social group is a tiny club that is run by my local church. It keeps in touch with other local LGBT organizations, but the combined influence of every small club in this town is on par with a city hall. They have very little social media influence and can't reach beyond their own district. Trans people are significant part of the headcount and it's difficult to stay coordinated without blindly supporting everyone within the group.
TL;DR: I don't know.

I can only speak for myself and a few other gay men I've met in person who've reluctantly shared, and spoke to others who are more willing online. Denying changing gender is possible is a crime in several parts of Europe; there's a murky gray area for the religious but even then sometimes individual religious people such as a British Catholic columnist for one of the major papers had her children removed by child services for denying it was possible to change sex in one of her articles if they're too loud about it. Being attacked by trans organizations or prosecuted is a very real threat looming over the head of anyone here who even is presumed to not be "fully supportive".

I did reach out to pride and LGBT movements and coffee meets when I first came out, but I withdrew and haven't really had a lot to do with many of them since. Initially, it was more for the hyper-sexualised element of pride; I might be a faggot but I'm relatively conservative socially; I am one of those sad fucks who wants commitment in marriage with a white picket fence and children. How polyamory is glorified and how pride parches paint all gay men as hypersexualized nymphomanics really put me off; I initially operated under the idea that it was worth overlooking for the camaraderie (some of them were interesting company) and the useful support services some of them can offer but eventually I decided it was more degrading to be associated with these people than not. For instance, I never made any secret of having been in a long term relationship and it was simply not possible to sustain any sort of platonic freindship in these groups without one of them trying to make a move, suggest a threesome or worse. Lie with dogs and you get fleas as the saying goes, if you move within certain circles people assume you endorse their ideas rightly or wrongly.

It is inconvenient sometimes to be gay outside and sometimes in opposition to the local LGBT and "scene" but I made the choice to behave, and to share opinions, that don't fall in line with the groupthink of the herd. I know it can't just be me, since in some of the major cities I have come across LGB groups who under various titles describe themselves as non-radfem, contrarian or the like. I think it's important to be authentic to oneself and not quash your own opinions just because it goes against the majority. If enough people do that, we can enact change; isn't that really how the gay rights movements and many before that found success before there were trans-national LGB organizations like Stonewall? Enough people over time put their heads above the parapet and said "No, I'm not on board with this".

I now behave the same way in regards to trans. I'm not suggesting everyone behaves like me and openly tells trans activists in person that they're wrong especially not if they're only recently out and still coming to grips with what an LGB life can be (I should add this is if they ask; I never lead with it because while I disagree with them I don't make a point of being rude to them; even though I can't nor would wish to experience dysphoria I'm not blind to the terrible internal struggle and hardships many hurt individuals have experienced). That said we don't have to assent to the idea that this is the solution; I know more than a few men and women who silently boycott evenings and events with trans speakers, or don't donate to groups who endorse things like child transition. Dissent comes in many forms, but even if it ultimatley fails I still beliving knowing is enough.

There's a curious consolation and satisfaction for me that even if my own efforts are for naught, such as my lifelong opposition to meat consumption, are for nothing; I know I tried to make it better and didn't do any harm. I fully believe without reservation the Trans movement is dangerous and has harmed many individuals, families and children and for the sake of future victims it would be wrong to spread it by silent assent by sharing a platform with these people who I don't believe have the best answer to this situation.

Unless they can convince me otherwise, but that hasn't happened yet. The more developments happen in trans legislation and research here (particularly that story about the now teenage boy who was put on hormone blockers as a child and now has the mind and body of a twelve year old, that sticks in my throat) the stronger my convictions are.

I think they will become seperated if enough of us get up and say this isn't right.
 

WoodlumHax

professional stooge
kiwifarms.net
i fucking hate Against Me!
its shitty punk that only gets attention because the singer is a troon
yeah I totally get that. I used to like a few of their songs when i was younger, but Laura Jane Grace is way too un-subtle on identity politics for me to enjoy a lot of it, and this is coming from a
trans
dude. Plus, the band's just kind of average in general.
 

UntimelyDhelmise

Galar Purge Survivor
kiwifarms.net
I did reach out to pride and LGBT movements and coffee meets when I first came out, but I withdrew and haven't really had a lot to do with many of them since. Initially, it was more for the hyper-sexualised element of pride; I might be a faggot but I'm relatively conservative socially; I am one of those sad fucks who wants commitment in marriage with a white picket fence and children. How polyamory is glorified and how pride parches paint all gay men as hypersexualized nymphomanics really put me off; I initially operated under the idea that it was worth overlooking for the camaraderie (some of them were interesting company) and the useful support services some of them can offer but eventually I decided it was more degrading to be associated with these people than not. For instance, I never made any secret of having been in a long term relationship and it was simply not possible to sustain any sort of platonic freindship in these groups without one of them trying to make a move, suggest a threesome or worse. Lie with dogs and you get fleas as the saying goes, if you move within certain circles people assume you endorse their ideas rightly or wrongly.
As someone who finds himself leaning more and more towards the same sex side of interest to the point of seriously considering dating a man if given the opportunity, this exact conundrum has left me at an impasse of sorts. Most would just say "Go visit a gay club" or something, but not only am I not interested in bars and the night scene but they generally aren't the kind of setting you'd choose to attempt building meaningful relationships, platonic or otherwise (not to mention hooking up with someone from such places is playing Russian roulette: STD edition).

And that even goes without saying about finding someone who's bi/gay and not of the extreme leftist hivemind, as more conservative folks of that persuasion tend to be more reserved about their sexuality and don't make themselves known that they lean that direction unless it's on a dating site or the like (which is fair, I'd prefer to be with someone who doesn't make their sexuality a personality trait). I know such people exist and even know a couple dudes like that, but it still feels like an impossible feat to actually come across one myself. Hell one of said friends even admitted he found his lover through sheer dumb luck.

Another issue is, it'd have to be someone local. I already went through a long-distance setup and I ain't doing it again, so I can't just come across a guy online and try to start something, no matter how compatible we'd seem together.
 

Fagatron

ArchFedora
kiwifarms.net
I know it's not going to sound all that helpful but while luck is the main component, if you're looking for a relationship it is going to require an active concerted effort and it'll be slightly harder but not unfeasible without the apps.

I've met previous boyfreinds at social activities I picked to try partially because I was curious, but also because I thought there was a decent chance of there being other gay men who weren't what I would call "scream queens" there; Cooking classes, book clubs, art exhibits etc. Ultimately I didn't meet my significant other at these places, but I did get a few dates out of them. I can also attest personally that Church's are also rife with conservative learning gays. It makes no sense but Gay men are statistically far more likely to be active in religious organizations. I wouldn't date a theist personally, but two of my friends met their boyfriend and husband this way.

There are venues where conservative LGB congregate in significant numbers, but this is one area the danger hairs do have an edge over us; because we don't make being gay obvious sometimes we don't even pick each other up.

Not sure what your gaydar is like but picking up the cues helps. Crossing legs, having a social job like being a teacher/cop/nurse, total disinterest in sports; yes they're stereotypes and one or two alone doesn't necessarily mean anything (my partner is literally the least feminine person I've ever met) but since we lack a Grindr for non-nymphos it does help.

Just my two cents.
 

averagejane

please pluck your nose hairs.
kiwifarms.net
Excluding WOKE fictional media, do lesbians have as much exposure as gay men and trannies these days?
every event in my town is swarmed with guys and troons. Even if I specifically look up the word lesbian. Are lesbo a minority or are they not as loud? Or are they less driven by their sexual desires as men thus have less insentive to put themselves out there? Genuinely interested.

Because, as a feminine lesbian who is attracted to feminine lesbians, I have very little to turn to these days with everything being swamped with dicks and girldick. my experience thus far has been that feminine lesbians are as rare as they are disinterested in fellow femmes lol. But even dykes are hard to come by these days
 

Surf and TERF

Ouisandrê
kiwifarms.net
Excluding WOKE fictional media, do lesbians have as much exposure as gay men and trannies these days?
every event in my town is swarmed with guys and troons. Even if I specifically look up the word lesbian. Are lesbo a minority or are they not as loud?
The type of partner you are looking for is probably staying hidden on purpose. My girlfriend and I both think lesbian communities are obnoxious and keep our sexualities on a need-to-know basis because of it. We wouldn’t have known the other was gay if we hadn’t met on an app.

My observation, at least online, is that MtFs REALLY love to hang out in lesbian communities. They love it so much that lesbian communities seem to be more about trans people than actual lesbians nowadays.

This isn’t relevant to your question but I personally don’t understand this obsession with being butch. I like women. I want them to look like women. Tomboys count as feminine in my book, but there’s a difference between looking practical and looking like you’ve transitioned. I have no idea why the latter is so popular.
 

raritycat

kiwifarms.net
Excluding WOKE fictional media, do lesbians have as much exposure as gay men and trannies these days?
every event in my town is swarmed with guys and troons. Even if I specifically look up the word lesbian. Are lesbo a minority or are they not as loud? Or are they less driven by their sexual desires as men thus have less insentive to put themselves out there? Genuinely interested.

Because, as a feminine lesbian who is attracted to feminine lesbians, I have very little to turn to these days with everything being swamped with dicks and girldick. my experience thus far has been that feminine lesbians are as rare as they are disinterested in fellow femmes lol. But even dykes are hard to come by these days
From what I've seen (as a gay man), every single time lesbians try and carve out a space for themselves- be it a bar, a once a month event, a support group, or an activity/hobby group- it will attract a horde of transbians and the real lesbians will disperse from the space over the following weeks or months. If one of the queer types tries to throw an event together for the lesbians, they'll usually make it "inclusive to everyone who isn't a gay man," and it ends up shitting the bed because the real lesbians know it's code for "some dude in a dress is going to hit on me" and avoid it like the plague.

I don't think lesbians are less driven, because you guys have major yearly events like Dinah Shore in Palm Springs, it's just that the mixed spaces are often futile due to a multitude of factors that lead to lesbians rage-quitting them such as (1) the amount of fag hags that latch on their gay friends and make it seem like every girl there is straight, (2) unicorn hunters, (3) transbians, and (4) the fat dangerhairs that are sadly actual lesbians.