Serious LGBT Discussion -

[idosometimes]

But what if I accepted that homosexuality is depraved and deviant? What if I want people to ask inconvenient questions?

You do not because doing so would mean you did not care about what people say is sinful or aberrant. Normal people whose brains are not destroyed by syphilis feel shame when they do bad things and do not feel shame even when fagets falsely accuse them of being bad.

I do not care if some religious group, politician, or corporation says I am wrong for doing something or believing something because I can justify my actions and beliefs. Fagets can only use logical fallacy.

 

[Dandelion Eyes]

Why does it matter if homosexuality is a sin? Why do some people have to justify it like a Christian apologist? I think that WH Auden said it best, "Homosexuality is a sin and I'll keep on sinning. "

Imagine being a follower of a religion that considers homosexuality a sin and finding out you're gay. You pray to God to relieve you from these urges, but they don't go away, and you have to live your life hating yourself. You'll probably also be shunned by your religious peers for being gay.
Basically, it matters because it causes people suffering.
And I'm not even gonna mention living in a Theocracy which believes that the best fate for homos is execution.

 

[Noir drag freak]

You do not because doing so would mean you did not care about what people say is sinful or aberrant. Normal people whose brains are not destroyed by syphilis feel shame when they do bad things and do not feel shame even when fagets falsely accuse them of being bad.

I do not care if some religious group, politician, or corporation says I am wrong for doing something or believing something because I can justify my actions and beliefs. Fagets can only use logical fallacy.

Lol. I don't have STIs, because I'm a gay incel. I hope to keep things lighthearted. But seriously, people should have the right to ask questions or have a moral framework to judge homosexuality immoral. I don't mind at all. The more questions people ask, the closer we can get to some form of truth. Besides, most people are going to do what they want no matter what.

Imagine being a follower of a religion that considers homosexuality a sin and finding out you're gay. You pray to God to relieve you from these urges, but they don't go away, and you have to live your life hating yourself. You'll probably also be shunned by your religious peers for being gay.
Basically, it matters because it causes people suffering.
And I'm not even gonna mention living in a Theocracy which believes that the best fate for homos is execution.

Great point. I guess that I take that life is suffering for granted. But at the same time, I realize that I am not the only one that is going through this experience. Also I think that sitiuations aren't as black and white as people like to make them.

 

[The Great Chandler]

There are some mainstream denominations that have moved away from Bible and have pursued a modern "theology", rejecting Biblical truth for their own modernized "truth", and this was a major reason why these mainstream denominations have declined. There are also "liberal" and "progressive" churches as well. Many of these latter ones are only "Christian" in name only (some of them don't even believe that Jesus Christ literally died on the Cross). And there are outright "gay affirming" churches, filled with homosexuals and lesbians, with LGBT clergy and everything. Even in my small southern city that I came from, there is apparently such a church.

There have been numerous "arguments" for why these churches can accept gays, lesbians, and bisexuals, but do not be fooled: The Bible makes it clear that homosexuality and lesbianism are sins and outside God's order. And not just those either; any sex or sexual immorality outside of committed, heterosexual marriage, is a sin. To wit:

"You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination." (Leviticus 18:22 (ESV))

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." (Leviticus 20:13 (ESV))

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." (Romans 1:26–27 (ESV))

"Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (ESV))

"Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers, the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine," (1 Timothy 8-10 (ESV))

We should note here the difference between homosexual acts, and homosexual inclinations and attractions. Its the difference between committing an act and being tempted to do it. The Bible never condemns anyone for being tempted, only for giving into that temptation and acting on it. Struggling with temptation may lead to sin, but the struggle itself is not sinful. The Bible characterizes homosexuality as outright disobedience towards God in Romans, and those who practice it are "given up" by God to do it, three times (in body, mind, and spirit), so that they can do it being given over to "a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;" (Romans 1:28 ). 1 Cor. 6:9 outright proclaims that those who commit homosexuality transgress against God's order, and will not see the Kingdom of Heaven.

Some people may be born with a greater susceptibility to homosexuality, just as some people may be more susceptible to falling into fits of rage, but the Bible never accepts a person's natural inclinations as an excuse for sin.

The Bible calls all, even homosexuals, to repentance. In fact, after condemning homosexuality, 1 Corinthians 6:11 says "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." Thus, some of the Corinthians were homosexuals, but, through the power of Jesus Christ, they turned away from it and overcame their sin, no longer being defined by that sin.

In the grand scheme of things, homosexual desire and attraction is no different from heterosexual extramarital lust, as far as the Bible is concerned; both are lusting after something God has declared forbidden, and thus has its ultimate roots in sin. For the Bible, there is no question where homosexuality came from; it is sin. Sin warps human perception and perspective so that our thoughts and desires are warped by it. Homosexual attraction does not always result in outright willful sin on a person's part, but it springs from mankind's inherent sinful nature. Homosexuality is just one more sin against God among many. But all men, homosexual or not, are called to resist temptation, which can only be done with the power of Jesus Christ.

Also, to be clear, the Bible does not call out homosexuality as a "greater sin" than any other. All sin is offensive to God. God's forgiveness is as open to homosexuals as it is to adulterers, and God promises victory in sin to all sinners who come to believe.

As much as I am a bisexual who once grew up in a religious environment, this is a legit interesting perspective! I know it may sound like I'm just being too naive or ignorant, but I like to think an actual loving Christian wouldn't outright shun their gay son, but rather be forgivingly patient about it (wasn't there a Proverbs verse that decries against child abuse?). Granted, none of the abuse stuff happened to me, but it makes one wonder why some other religious families don't act the same way as they should (don't get me started on the Muslim families in the Middle East who are quick to give up years of love and suddenly disown their children over it).

You do not because doing so would mean you did not care about what people say is sinful or aberrant. Normal people whose brains are not destroyed by syphilis feel shame when they do bad things and do not feel shame even when fagets falsely accuse them of being bad.

I do not care if some religious group, politician, or corporation says I am wrong for doing something or believing something because I can justify my actions and beliefs. Fagets can only use logical fallacy.

The biggest part of why I'm not religious anymore is because of this fundamentalist thinking were you simply cannot question the dogma behind it. The human brain has been designed to question everything around them, from nature to authority itself. If there is no reassuring answer, then we rebel; especially when said "answers" are hostile.

 

[Absurdist Laughter]

Imagine being a follower of a religion that considers homosexuality a sin and finding out you're gay. You pray to God to relieve you from these urges, but they don't go away, and you have to live your life hating yourself. You'll probably also be shunned by your religious peers for being gay.
Basically, it matters because it causes people suffering.
And I'm not even gonna mention living in a Theocracy which believes that the best fate for homos is execution.

This is my running theory as to why the Catholic Church is filled with priests who touch little boys.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

As much as I am a bisexual who once grew up in a religious environment, this is a legit interesting perspective! I know it may sound like I'm just being too naive or ignorant, but I like to think an actual loving Christian wouldn't outright shun their gay son, but rather be forgivingly patient about it (wasn't there a Proverbs verse that decries against child abuse?). Granted, none of the abuse stuff happened to me, but it makes one wonder why some other religious families don't act the same way as they should (don't get me started on the Muslim families in the Middle East who are quick to give up years of love and suddenly disown their children over it).

A Christian family finding out that one of their children is gay/lesbian/bisexual/what have you is an interesting conundrum and, if you go to a Christian bookstore, you will actually find many books on the subject. I would say that few Christians would outright shun their LGBT children in this day and age, and, what's more, no modern, major Christian figure, even if they adhere to the Christian views on homosexuality, aside from maybe a old fashioned country Baptist minister, would encourage that action, as neither would I. What many leaders, and books, and I myself, would encourage that Parent to do would be to pray for that child that he will come into full fellowship with Christ, and take care of them while they are still young and their responsibility. Because, as per the Bible, the parents still have responsibility to that Child, to care for and love them, and train them:

"Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it." (Proverbs 22:6 NKJV)

"And you, fathers, do not provoke your children to wrath, but bring them up in the training and admonition of the Lord." (Ephesians 6:4 NKJV)

"Fathers, do not provoke your children, lest they become discouraged." (Colossians 3:21 NKJV)

"But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever." (1 Timothy 5:2 NKJV)

"A good man leaves an inheritance to his children’s children,..." (Proverbs 13:22 NKJV)

Of course, children also have responsibilities:

"Children, obey your parents in all things, for this is well pleasing to the Lord." (Colossians 3:20 NKJV)

"Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise: “that it may be well with you and you may live long on the earth.” (Ephesians 6:1-3 NKJV; quoting one of the Ten Commandments)

Now, once the child is an adult, he is free to do what he wants to do, but I would discourage the parent from cutting the child off permanently and never allowing him back. And most ministers will say the same. Remember, one of the most famous parables of Jesus was of the Prodigal Son, a story of a son who took his part of the inheritance, lived a dishonorable life of hedonism, and lost all he had, being forced to return home, only to be embraced by his father and welcomed back with open arms and a feast, and this is the parable Jesus was using to describe the relationship between God the Father and the sinners who come to faith in Christ. The parent should always leave the door open and I don't believe a parent should cut their child off except in the most extreme of circumstances.

Now, every parent is going to have their own limits. A parent, for instance, probably won't let their gay son bring his boyfriend home to visit, or may allow him the visit, but won't allow him to stay in the same room as their son. This limits are going to be different for every family and should be negotiated fairly between all parties.

But this is a very tough issue for many families, and many just don't know how to handle it when it come up, react with kneejerk reactions and only seek help after damage has been done.

The biggest part of why I'm not religious anymore is because of this fundamentalist thinking were you simply cannot question the dogma behind it. The human brain has been designed to question everything around them, from nature to authority itself. If there is no reassuring answer, then we rebel; especially when said "answers" are hostile.

This is unfortunately something that is not uncommon thinking among those who leave the church. But the Bible never discourages free thought in its pages. On the contrary, God gave you a brain so that you could use it. Plenty of smart men - scientists, philosophers, politicians, etc. - were Christian men of great faith. Its why I take great pleasure in speaking of the Bible and encourage people to read it themselves, with an open mind.

 

[Real Gay Autist]

What many leaders, and books, and I myself, would encourage that Parent to do would be to pray for that child that he will come into full fellowship with Christ

I appreciate what you're saying and I'm open to being further convinced of your perspective; I'll make my claims in similarly stark terms to yours.

It is my experience that this attitude of focusing on 'the sin and not the sinner' becomes a more passive-aggressive version of shunning your child. It is a kind of defence mechanism, which serves to uphold a split (in the psychoanalytic sense), black-and-white worldview with no room for ambiguity or flexibility. What this does for the Christian/parents/minister is allow them to maintain an all-good self-concept without addressing the contradictory and difficult feelings provoked by the situation. It's more difficult to actually sink down into the unconscious and investigate what's really going on, which, ironically, would be the old-school Christian mystic approach. This is psychology of religion/ideology 101.

I know someone whose parents took exactly this contradictory, holier-than-thou line: "we love you and accept you fully for who you are, but if only you could see that we/our minister/our book holds the eternal truth of who you ought to be". It actually ended up being worse for him, because now he was faced with this kind of 'fake acceptance' he had to pretend to be all happy otherwise he would be accused of not accepting their religious beliefs, being demanding, being ungrateful, etc. It's a classic abusive tactic. At least if his parents truly did reject him, he said, they'd be acting from a heartfelt place. Instead, their parental instinct was to love and accept him fully but, because they could not reconcile these feelings with their religious beliefs and community, they were forced to adopt this high-and-mighty position of contempt. Again, a classic double-bind which you learn about in psychology of religion/ideology: "we fully accept that you can do what you want; but if you do what you want we will never fully accept you".

These are emotional/psychological manipulations designed to perpetuate internal and external structures of authority within the religious community. They cause harm, in my experience and if you look at the literature on the psychology of religion/ideology.

But the Bible never discourages free thought in its pages. On the contrary, God gave you a brain so that you could use it.

This is another sort of disingenuous tactic one often sees with any ideologue trying to convince you: "oh but no-one is forcing you to believe it; it's just that believing it is the only right way".

If Christians actually were like this, things would look different. The directives would focus more on religion proper and not on ideology. As the Christian mystics understood, this means a personal and private spirituality. Going deep into your heart to truly understand what God, Jesus, the Spirit, means. To do this you must remain open at all costs, never taking someone's word for granted or following blindly. Read widely and openly, drawing on many different traditions. Focus especially on understanding people and traditions who believe differently form you, or who provoke difficult feelings in you. Encourage and support others to quietly and privately look inwards in the same way. Remaining attached to the idea that your view on reality is the ultimate and universal truth is a defence against dropping down into the difficult journey into self.

 

[Kornula]

My ¢.02 thoughts regarding Christianity vs The Gays©:

Yes, there are a HANDFUL of assholes of Christians who hate The Gays© with a passion. What I keep trying to point out is that it is a tiny handful that are driven by this hate to the point where they want to implement anti gay legislation. Far too many people on both sides of this issue tend to focus on the exception...and believe it is the rule.

I will bring up Westboro Baptist Church as a prime example: By now, they have made a name for themselves that I am going to assume everyone knows why. WBC screamed and shouted ....and more people would show up to counteract to their hate...with more hate. (the rare exception was when bikers showed up to make a loud wall of engine noises to block out their shouting at a service for a child) My point is that knee jerk reacting to the tiny number of people screaming and shouting only serves to give attention seeking whores more fuel for their fire... even if its a counter protest.. its still just attention.

Sadder still is people who oppose WBC and their literal hate feel this is the majority/rule for nearly every single Christian (at least in America) 80% of my friends and family are some form of Christians. None of my friends and family have disowned me for being gay. Plus, every single one of them who do happen to bring up "God Hates Fags" bunch... do so with derision. Again, this tells me people are taking the exception as the rule.

Please stop taking the exception as the rule.

 

[The Demon Pimp of Razgriz]

I will bring up Westboro Baptist Church as a prime example: By now, they have made a name for themselves that I am going to assume everyone knows why. WBC screamed and shouted ....and more people would show up to counteract to their hate...with more hate. (the rare exception was when bikers showed up to make a loud wall of engine noises to block out their shouting at a service for a child) My point is that knee jerk reacting to the tiny number of people screaming and shouting only serves to give attention seeking whores more fuel for their fire... even if its a counter protest.. its still just attention.

Westboro Baptist Church is so fringe, most Christians can't stand them and just want them to go away. Their beliefs are not biblically based at all and it actually irks many Christians to even be associated with them or to even call them a "church" in any sense. Thankfully, I've heard nothing about them for over a decade at this point, so maybe they've just gone away.

I appreciate what you're saying and I'm open to being further convinced of your perspective; I'll make my claims in similarly stark terms to yours.

It is my experience that this attitude of focusing on 'the sin and not the sinner' becomes a more passive-aggressive version of shunning your child. It is a kind of defence mechanism, which serves to uphold a split (in the psychoanalytic sense), black-and-white worldview with no room for ambiguity or flexibility. What this does for the Christian/parents/minister is allow them to maintain an all-good self-concept without addressing the contradictory and difficult feelings provoked by the situation. It's more difficult to actually sink down into the unconscious and investigate what's really going on, which, ironically, would be the old-school Christian mystic approach. This is psychology of religion/ideology 101.

I know someone whose parents took exactly this contradictory, holier-than-thou line: "we love you and accept you fully for who you are, but if only you could see that we/our minister/our book holds the eternal truth of who you ought to be". It actually ended up being worse for him, because now he was faced with this kind of 'fake acceptance' he had to pretend to be all happy otherwise he would be accused of not accepting their religious beliefs, being demanding, being ungrateful, etc. It's a classic abusive tactic. At least if his parents truly did reject him, he said, they'd be acting from a heartfelt place. Instead, their parental instinct was to love and accept him fully but, because they could not reconcile these feelings with their religious beliefs and community, they were forced to adopt this high-and-mighty position of contempt. Again, a classic double-bind which you learn about in psychology of religion/ideology: "we fully accept that you can do what you want; but if you do what you want we will never fully accept you".

These are emotional/psychological manipulations designed to perpetuate internal and external structures of authority within the religious community. They cause harm, in my experience and if you look at the literature on the psychology of religion/ideology.

You call this a psychological manipulation tactic, but it really isn't. Its really no different from any other situation where parents are forced to reconcile the love for their child with the actions they commit, like a parent finding out their daughter is a porn star or prostitute, or finding out their son cheated on his wife: "Baby, I love you, but I can't in good conscience condone what you do." One thing I've noticed on Kiwifarms is that we here generally accept that acceptance is conditional; we are generally very irritated when the Alphabet mafia, especially the Trans Lobby, demand that everyone accept them, "or else". We understand that acceptance is not something to be demanded or forced, and that the better thing to shoot for is tolerance (though we also understand that tolerance cannot be forced, nor should it).

Parents will always have higher levels of acceptance for their children and their life choices. But it would be impractical and unrealistic to expect a parent to accept everything their child does. Even more so when talking about a major moral issue. It sounds like your friend may have had some other issues with his parents outside of whether or not they accepted him as their son and tolerated his homosexuality; maybe they still made clear they held it over his head, or maybe they, as you said, had a holier than thou attitude. Or maybe that's just how your friend perceived it. What he considered contempt was really concern, and they were trying to navigate the situation as well as they possible could, and he interpreted poorly. Maybe your friend was struggling with the acceptance of his own sexuality. I am not him nor have I talked to him personally, so I can't really know. But if his parents did hold him in contempt or have a holier than thou attitude, that is their personal failure as parents.

I think one thing that we generally overlook in these situations is how tough these situations are on the parent and not just the child. Its one thing to find out that your child made a singular mistake or did something you didn't agree with/like in a single situation. Its another to find your child is now in an active situation that you will both have to navigate through, potentially for the rest of his/her life. You recognize what your loved one is doing is sin, but also still love them and you want them to be in good standing with God. To say that this is a conscious manipulation tactic isn't fair nor is it true, at least not in every case. Many parents are struggling with the situation and going through their own emotional turmoil.

This is another sort of disingenuous tactic one often sees with any ideologue trying to convince you: "oh but no-one is forcing you to believe it; it's just that believing it is the only right way".

The Bible never discourages "free thought", period. Christianity is built upon faith, which has nothing to do with you intellectual knowledge or ability (or lack thereof), and this faith must be reached by that person on their own, not forced upon them. This is why I encourage people to read the Bible for themselves and why translating the Bible into the common language was a major pinnacle in Christianity in general and Protestantism in particular. It allowed people to read the Word themselves and come to understand it. And through reading the Word of God, something supernatural happens. Faith in God is not the same as blind faith in a man, or fortune telling. It is something that can only come via hearing or reading the Word of God ("So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17) and achieving saving faith is something supernatural in nature. I won't get into the theological explanation of saving faith but this is just a quick and sloppy explanation.

There is only one way to Heaven; Jesus Christ ("Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."" (John 14:6 NKJV)) That is a simple fact. I can't force you to believe it. But it is no less true than the law of gravity. Whether you come to believe it or not, is a matter of faith, not your intelligence.

The Bible does not place much stock in man's knowledge or intelligence because it is so limited and susceptible to man's foibles and failures, that it isn't worth much in the face of an infinite God:

“Trust in the Lord with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and depart from evil." (Proverbs 3:5-7 NKJV)

The Bible, however, never encourages Christians to toss aside their minds and say, blindly follow leaders or pastors, or stop thinking for themselves. The Bible commands Christians to be able to defend their faith, and, by extension, know their faith:

"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear." (I Peter 3:15 NKJV)

The Bible encourages people to seek knowledge:

"The heart of the prudent acquires knowledge, And the ear of the wise seeks knowledge." (Proverbs 18:15 NKJV)

"The heart of him who has understanding seeks knowledge, But the mouth of fools feeds on foolishness." (Proverbs 15:14 NKJV)

Indeed, knowledge and wisdom are held in high esteem:

"There is gold and a multitude of rubies, But the lips of knowledge are a precious jewel." (Proverbs 20:15 NKJV)

And ultimately, all knowledge and wisdom flows from God:

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction." (Proverbs 1:7 NKJV)

"For the LORD gives wisdom; From His mouth come knowledge and understanding" (Proverbs 2:6 NKJV)

"Teach me good judgment and knowledge, For I believe Your commandments." (Psalms 119:66 NKJV; the psalmist speaking to God directly)

"The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, The Spirit of wisdom and understanding, The Spirit of counsel and might, The Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD." (Isaiah 11:2 NKJV)

So when I say that the Bible encourages us think and attain knowledge, and gain understanding, I mean it. But, attaining faith in God should be first and foremost, for all the knowledge in the world will not matter without that.

The directives would focus more on religion proper and not on ideology.

Religion, ideology, philosophy, etc. should not matter to the Christian one iota. These things are what keep people from God, not get you closer to him. Christianity is about having a personal relationship with the Lord, not following religious precepts. For Jesus, and God, by extension, religion is not following precepts or set rules but this:

"Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27 NKJV)

The Bible warns against embroiling yourself in "religion" or philosophy of any kind:

"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ." (Colossians 2:8 NKJV)

Peoples, both then and today, delude themselves with their false faiths and set themselves up for failure:

"The craftsman stretches out his rule, He marks one out with chalk; He fashions it with a plane, He marks it out with the compass, And makes it like the figure of a man, According to the beauty of a man, that it may remain in the house. He cuts down cedars for himself, And takes the cypress and the oak; He secures it for himself among the trees of the forest. He plants a pine, and the rain nourishes it. Then it shall be for a man to burn, For he will take some of it and warm himself; Yes, he kindles it and bakes bread; Indeed he makes a god and worships it; He makes it a carved image, and falls down to it. He burns half of it in the fire; With this half he eats meat; He roasts a roast, and is satisfied. He even warms himself and says, “Ah! I am warm, I have seen the fire.” And the rest of it he makes into a god, His carved image. He falls down before it and worships it, Prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!” They do not know nor understand; For He has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, And their hearts, so that they cannot understand. And no one considers in his heart, Nor is there knowledge nor understanding to say, “I have burned half of it in the fire, Yes, I have also baked bread on its coals; I have roasted meat and eaten it; And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?” He feeds on ashes; A deceived heart has turned him aside; And he cannot deliver his soul, Nor say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?” (Isaiah 44 13-20 NKJV)

There are others, even so called Christians who adhere to religiosity, whose "religion" is relying upon rule keeping, ceremony, and tradition to curry favor with God. The Scribes and the Pharisees had such religion, and Jesus was not impressed:

“Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, love greetings in the marketplaces, the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.” (Luke 20:46–47 NKJV)

“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness. Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’ “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?" (Matthew 23: 27-33)

The Bible says that in the last days there will be men who will come "having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!" (II Timothy 3:5 NKJV). Thus we must avoid false "religion". True religion is based on relationship, particularly a relationship to God and Jesus, for, as Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments." (John 14:15 NKJV), and as Paul says: "Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:10 NKJV)

Read widely and openly, drawing on many different traditions. Focus especially on understanding people and traditions who believe differently form you, or who provoke difficult feelings in you.

The only thing that the Christian need read and draw from is the Bible, the word of God. I'll throw out a theological term here, and that is "sufficiency". It is a theological concept that is studied in systematic theology, but I'll just briefly give the definition: "The sufficiency of Scripture means that Scripture contained all the words of God he intended his people to have at each stage of redemptive history, and that it now contains everything we need God to tell us for salvation, for trusting him perfectly, and for obeying him perfectly." The Bible alone is sufficient for Christians. Leaning about other faiths is nice and I encourage people to study other faiths, to understand a bit of where others come from, but it is no requirement of the Christian to deeply familiarize himself with the faiths of others, and there is nothing he can draw upon from other false faiths. The Bible is sufficient for religious truth.

Remaining attached to the idea that your view on reality is the ultimate and universal truth is a defence against dropping down into the difficult journey into self.

There is but one universal religious truth: the truth that man is lost in his sin, in need of a savior, and Jesus is that savior, having come to die for the sins of the world to save those lost in sin. That God sent him here to redeem mankind back to him. Anything that does not line with that truth is not from God and therefore must be taken as a lie.

I'll let you in on a little secret: all Christians, even the most devout, question God sometimes, or doubt their faith. All question their faith at some point, but this is natural. It does not cause them to lose their saving faith. Knowledge, fear, doubt...none of these can override true faith.

 

[Kornula]

I used Westboro Baptist Church as an immediately recognizable example..Having said that.. Fred Phelps died about 5 - 10 ish years ago..they have been pretty quiet as he was the main driving force/voice behind that... The problem today is that the Gay Nazi Alphabet Brigade is crying "oppression" at every turn from literally every corner in America today. They have not cited one single VALID example of this since Phelps died - yet the "persecution" and "oppression" is somehow real.
Currently, the battle cry today is "transphobia" in sports. Like this week, an 11 year old BOY wants to play in girls sports in school. Naturally, anyone who is against this is "transphobic"... heck, if you just say you're a Trump supporter AND gay... you are a literal Nazi... there is no valid reason given.. just a lot of anger.

It would have been funny if only a handful of people believed this nonsense.. but its 99% of liberals today.

There is no "far left" crazy.. they are all 100% crazy

 

[The Great Chandler]

If you just say you're a Trump supporter AND gay... you are a literal Nazi... there is no valid reason given.. just a lot of anger.

I never understood this logic. They never bother asking why or anything. They just assume the absolute worst, that you're the crazy one in the room. I once had a friend on a Discord who called me "mentally ill" just because I was trying to point out the reasons for why the January 6th protest at Capitol Hill happened, even though I clearly stated to said friend prior that I did not condone what happened. It's like they're afraid of learning an "awful" truth that would yank them out of their self-righteous Lalaland.

 

[Real Gay Autist]

@The Demon Pimp of Razgriz just wanted to say thanks for your detailed reply. I think we're at risk of getting off-topic in this discussion, since a lot of what we'd get into is theology/psychology/philosophy. I personally don't find a lot of these traditional theological arguments convincing, since in my view they appear to rely on system-internal evidence and thus can sometimes err towards circular (e.g., very roughly, the Bible is true because the Bible says it is true). I understand that those arguments do convince some people and I'm sincerely glad if people can find that helpful. I'm content with my own private relationship my spirituality and faith; as you can tell from my comment I have a strong interest in mysticism, which is a very strong Christian tradition, and I guess that's my path. We're probably not that far off in most ways. See you around and maybe we'll have the chance for a more in-depth discussion sometime.

 

[Noir drag freak]

I used Westboro Baptist Church as an immediately recognizable example..Having said that.. Fred Phelps died about 5 - 10 ish years ago..they have been pretty quiet as he was the main driving force/voice behind that... The problem today is that the Gay Nazi Alphabet Brigade is crying "oppression" at every turn from literally every corner in America today. They have not cited one single VALID example of this since Phelps died - yet the "persecution" and "oppression" is somehow real.
Currently, the battle cry today is "transphobia" in sports. Like this week, an 11 year old BOY wants to play in girls sports in school. Naturally, anyone who is against this is "transphobic"... heck, if you just say you're a Trump supporter AND gay... you are a literal Nazi... there is no valid reason given.. just a lot of anger.

It would have been funny if only a handful of people believed this nonsense.. but its 99% of liberals today.

There is no "far left" crazy.. they are all 100% crazy

People all across the political spectrum are on edge. People on the right think that all liberals are Commies that want to overthrow the West. They want to LARP like as Vikings, Revolutionary Rebels, Christian trads. The Left is a complete mess because they want to rebel against gender norms and biology. So i just don't think that it's just liberals.


Can we talk about Jack Donovan and him trying to be the Pagan Yukio Mishima? What is with that guy?

 

[Kornula]

People all across the political spectrum are on edge. People on the right think that all liberals are Commies that want to overthrow the West. They want to LARP like as Vikings, Revolutionary Rebels, Christian trads. The Left is a complete mess because they want to rebel against gender norms and biology. So i just don't think that it's just liberals.


Can we talk about Jack Donovan and him trying to be the Pagan Yukio Mishima? What is with that guy?

The left wants to rebel just to rebel.. they have nothing valid to rebel against.
The right.. yes, knee jerk reacts to the lefts knee Jerking.

It's one big jerkfest

 

[SouthernBitchBob]

I used Westboro Baptist Church as an immediately recognizable example..Having said that.. Fred Phelps died about 5 - 10 ish years ago..they have been pretty quiet as he was the main driving force/voice behind that... The problem today is that the Gay Nazi Alphabet Brigade is crying "oppression" at every turn from literally every corner in America today. They have not cited one single VALID example of this since Phelps died - yet the "persecution" and "oppression" is somehow real.
Currently, the battle cry today is "transphobia" in sports. Like this week, an 11 year old BOY wants to play in girls sports in school. Naturally, anyone who is against this is "transphobic"... heck, if you just say you're a Trump supporter AND gay... you are a literal Nazi... there is no valid reason given.. just a lot of anger.

It would have been funny if only a handful of people believed this nonsense.. but its 99% of liberals today.

There is no "far left" crazy.. they are all 100% crazy

Makes me want to ruminate on why 99% of The Gays are whackjobs hanging off the cliff at the far edge of leftism. I'm sure their fellow travelers will tell you it's because their nebulous concept of "the right" is whateverphobic, and that may have been more true 20 years ago but the center right hasn't given a shit for a long time, and the more libertarian types have never given a shit. I'd suspect something more like the same sort of stroking victim complexes the left does with any other minority population.

Also I've always rolled my eyes at "gender is a social construct". Even with all the John Money pseudoscience aside, so what? So's money. Just because people made it up doesn't mean it isn't real. Or useful. Or serve a purpose. Or provide a framework that keeps the world turning. The modern Left has been using "social construct" as a shortcut for "outdated silly thing we could wish away at any moment with no negative impact or side effects" for a while now, and they get stupider with every social concept they point and scream at.

 

[Kornula]

25 years ago when I considered myself a screaming leftist, i would often chime up with that very observation on how we Gays are not exactly persecuted as we claimed to be...25 years ago. Back then, i would get a condescending pat on the head.

How I miss those days...

 

[Regenbogen]

But what if I accepted that homosexuality is depraved and deviant? What if I want people to ask inconvenient questions?

You should keep away from straighty forever. Never talk to them, never hang out with them. You have no allies. WE have no allies.

My ¢.02 thoughts regarding Christianity vs The Gays©:

Yes, there are a HANDFUL of assholes of Christians who hate The Gays© with a passion. What I keep trying to point out is that it is a tiny handful that are driven by this hate to the point where they want to implement anti gay legislation. Far too many people on both sides of this issue tend to focus on the exception...and believe it is the rule.

I will bring up Westboro Baptist Church as a prime example: By now, they have made a name for themselves that I am going to assume everyone knows why. WBC screamed and shouted ....and more people would show up to counteract to their hate...with more hate. (the rare exception was when bikers showed up to make a loud wall of engine noises to block out their shouting at a service for a child) My point is that knee jerk reacting to the tiny number of people screaming and shouting only serves to give attention seeking whores more fuel for their fire... even if its a counter protest.. its still just attention.

Sadder still is people who oppose WBC and their literal hate feel this is the majority/rule for nearly every single Christian (at least in America) 80% of my friends and family are some form of Christians. None of my friends and family have disowned me for being gay. Plus, every single one of them who do happen to bring up "God Hates Fags" bunch... do so with derision. Again, this tells me people are taking the exception as the rule.

Please stop taking the exception as the rule.

Protip: They all do. Their religion is poison and they're all murderers.

You'll find no friends among "pagans" either, they'll just quote some bullshit like Tacitus.

You can look at individuals, or you can look at history and example.

 

[Syaoran Li]

Protip: They all do. Their religion is poison and they're all murderers.

You'll find no friends among "pagans" either, they'll just quote some bullshit like Tacitus.

You can look at individuals, or you can look at history and example.

Most of those "pagans" are /pol/ LARP'ers who misinterpret Tacitus though. Atheists aren't any better towards gays and are on par with the Yahwehists if the communist dictators are anything to go by.

The "muh Tacitus" types are basically crypto-Christians and crypto-atheists who don't like the fact that Jesus was a Jewish criminal and Yahweh is an Israelite deity.

If you read between the lines, the Germanic pagans who killed gays and threw them in bogs didn't execute them for being gay despite what spergs like Varg Vikernes like to say.

They were executed because they bottomed to the thralls. The old pagan societies had less of a "gay versus straight" mindset and more of a "top versus bottom" mentality and a lot of it was tied heavily into one's social class.

The Greco-Roman and Celtic pagans both were openly fine with male homosexuality provided you were a top to someone of a lower social standing. Germanic pagans were cool with it too but more strongly emphasized the class dynamics.

It was taboo for someone to bottom to someone of a lower social class

The modern concept of "gay man bad" is largely derived from the Abrahamic faiths. The only other pagan tradition that had a similar blanket ban on homosexuality were the Egyptians, who had a lot of interaction with the ancient Israelites and vice versa.

 

[Regenbogen]

Most of those "pagans" are /pol/ LARP'ers who misinterpret Tacitus though. Atheists aren't any better towards gays and are on par with the Yahwehists if the communist dictators are anything to go by.

The "muh Tacitus" types are basically crypto-Christians and crypto-atheists who don't like the fact that Jesus was a Jewish criminal and Yahweh is an Israelite deity.

If you read between the lines, the Germanic pagans who killed gays and threw them in bogs didn't execute them for being gay despite what spergs like Varg Vikernes like to say.

They were executed because they bottomed to the thralls. The old pagan societies had less of a "gay versus straight" mindset and more of a "top versus bottom" mentality and a lot of it was tied heavily into one's social class.

The Greco-Roman and Celtic pagans both were openly fine with male homosexuality provided you were a top to someone of a lower social standing. Germanic pagans were cool with it too but more strongly emphasized the class dynamics.

It was taboo for someone to bottom to someone of a lower social class

The modern concept of "gay man bad" is largely derived from the Abrahamic faiths. The only other pagan tradition that had a similar blanket ban on homosexuality were the Egyptians, who had a lot of interaction with the ancient Israelites and vice versa.

But this just goes into my point about our fucked up situation, our only "allies" are suicidal libshits. the only alternative to the hell of modernity with everyone being a fucking depressed crackhead out to get one another is to have *us* get our skulls split.

I am also disgusted by the "top vs bottom" mindset of old pagan societies, and wish to see them thrown away

If anything the greatest solution for *us* is to separate from everyone and burn down all the history books that we have

 

[Syaoran Li]

But this just goes into my point about our fucked up situation, our only "allies" are suicidal libshits. the only alternative to the hell of modernity with everyone being a fucking depressed crackhead out to get one another is to have *us* get our skulls split.

I am also disgusted by the "top vs bottom" mindset of old pagan societies, and wish to see them thrown away

If anything the greatest solution for *us* is to separate from everyone and burn down all the history books that we have

For what it's worth, the "top vs. bottom" mindset of ancient pagan civilizations probably had a lot to do with the fact these were all pre-industrial societies with rigid class systems.