Sesame Credit: Thoughts? -

[Forever Sunrise]

So, I've just learnt about the tiny little act of social engineering going on in China at the moment; Sesame Credit. For those unaware of what Sesame Credit is and why it seems like a fairly big thing, I recommend watching this video here.

I've always been interested in political and social engineering concepts, so the idea of Sesame Credit is one that honestly impresses me a great deal. Political figures have struggled for centuries to implement a system of rule that is essentially self-reinforcing when it comes to ensuring the loyalty of their citizens, and I think that Sesame Credit is one of the few attempts that might actually have long-term success. Don't get me wrong, I still consider it a truly frightening engine of oppression that exists primarily to weed out political dissenters, but the mechanical structure itself is positively fascinating.

Does anyone here have any opinions on the Sesame Credit issue? Do you think that Western civilizations would ever be in a position to adopt such a system? Is it just a stunt that will inevitably collapse under its own weight?

 

[dunbrine47]

So it's basically giving the government power to give citizens Kiwi Farms ratings.
If that were the case in the U.S, i'd probably get a bunch of autistic and dumb ratings and have one of the lowest scores imaginable.
Indeed, this system is creepy yet fascinating.

 

[AnOminous]

So it's basically giving the government power to give citizens Kiwi Farms ratings.
If that were the case in the U.S, i'd probably get a bunch of autistic and dumb ratings and have one of the lowest scores imaginable.
Indeed, this system is creepy yet fascinating.

I bet it turns out easy to game so you could completely ruin someone's life by literally weening them to death. Creating fake friends who then denounce the government, etc.

 

[Marvin]

I bet it turns out easy to game so you could completely ruin someone's life by literally weening them to death. Creating fake friends who then denounce the government, etc.

This.

Yeah... I don't know much about the Chinese government. Are they technically competent? Because I don't believe a system like this has legs, at least not in the way this video presents it. If they're smart, they'll try this system for awhile and ditch it after a few years.

You can't really set up a system like this and have it be completely automated. Anything that touches a computer can be automated from one perspective. The government is trying to automate compliance. But these systems can easily be automated from the opposite perspective. (And when we're talking about computers, it just takes one guy in his basement to do it.) There are ways to make the system more accurate at detecting fraud, but that can only go so far.

So you're going to eventually have a big bureaucracy dedicated to processing appeals. And that's going to be a pain in the ass because whatever algorithm they use is inherently going to be big, complex and a pain in the ass to understand. Think US tax code levels of complexity, except we're dealing with reputation/loyalty, which is much, much less concrete a concept than money.

I just think it'd take some high level party member's cousin getting downrated for being disloyal for people to start bitching about it.

The general idea of using video game inspired motivators is very interesting to me. Twitter and kiwifarms has taught me how addictive things like that can be. I just wouldn't trust a system like that for anything that actually matters to people.

 

[Enclave Supremacy]

The Chinese Communist Party creates something completely authoritarian to try and police the population. Who'd have thought? I've seen Extra Credits and some other guys mention this and they all act 'shocked' that such a system would be implemented by a government. By the CCP. At what point did everyone forget that the CCP is a really evil organisation and this is right up their alley along with the rest of their censorship and thought-policing tactics.

Something like this wouldn't happen in the West. I've met plenty of average people and I can't imagine any of them being even remotely interested in a Facebook game that revolves around political orthodoxy. Not that such a thing can really exist in mutli-party democracies where there isn't "a government line" for the majority of things.

 

[AnOminous]

I've met plenty of average people and I can't imagine any of them being even remotely interested in a Facebook game that revolves around political orthodoxy. Not that such a thing can really exist in mutli-party democracies where there isn't "a government line" for the majority of things.

People would be interested in it if their score in it determined whether they got food to eat or went to prison or got used for organ harvesting.

 

[Enclave Supremacy]

People would be interested in it if their score in it determined whether they got food to eat or went to prison or got used for organ harvesting.

I think if we're at that stage we probably have bigger problems as a society than a Facebook game whilst the Chinese are just used to it or don't know where all the Falun Gong guys go after they are detained. i was assuming that the hypothetical western governments would be trying to implement the similar system in today's society.

Besides I'm sure some of the penalties of a low score include being barred from certain positions in private companies. Only in China, where businesses are an organ of the party, could this happen rather than here were it's mostly the other way around (aside from obvious things that require government issued security clearances or something).

 

[wardrobeϟmalfunction]

They're just swapping the stick for the carrot. I sincerely hope it won't work, but only time may tell.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Another take on Sesame Credit: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186

 

[AnOminous]

It strikes me that being a game, it is likely to be gamed by the kind of people who already obsessively play social media games. They will obsessively go for high scores despite being shitty citizens.

Also:

Another take on Sesame Credit: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186

"Someone who plays video games for 10 hours a day, for example, would be considered an idle person, and someone who frequently buys diapers would be considered as probably a parent, who on balance is more likely to have a sense of responsibility," Li Yingyun, Sesame's technology director told Caixin, a Chinese magazine, in February.

So Strikerwolf, @Leonard F. Shaner Jr. and Pamperchu will be considered the height of responsibility.

 

[Pickle Inspector]

It strikes me that being a game, it is likely to be gamed by the kind of people who already obsessively play social media games. They will obsessively go for high scores despite being shitty citizens.

Also:



"Someone who plays video games for 10 hours a day, for example, would be considered an idle person, and someone who frequently buys diapers would be considered as probably a parent, who on balance is more likely to have a sense of responsibility," Li Yingyun, Sesame's technology director told Caixin, a Chinese magazine, in February.

So Strikerwolf, @Leonard F. Shaner Jr. and Pamperchu will be considered the height of responsibility.

Yeah, if there are real world benefits/consequences people will quickly learn to game the system.

 

[Marvin]

Another take on Sesame Credit: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34592186

However, Sesame Credit will not divulge exactly how it calculates its credit scores, explaining that it is a "complex algorithm".

Haha, . So it's not just a social credit system, it's a proprietary social credit system.

 

[Morbid Boredom]

Okay, I'll say it... doesn't private enterprise cooperate with the government and inform on private citizens in the west, just without the formality of a "social FICO score"?

 

[Forever Sunrise]

Okay, I'll say it... doesn't private enterprise cooperate with the government and inform on private citizens in the west, just without the formality of a "social FICO score"?

The major difference is that no matter who you are, you are still afforded the same basic services. You can be an anti-semantic snake-oil peddling inbred redneck who spends all day masturbating to midget-on-giraffe porn and still be guaranteed a high-speed broadband connection with which to flood youtube with your anti-government screeds just so long as you have the money for it. China's system basically means that you lose the ability to acquire certain services if you are arbitrarily deemed to be a non-conformist.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

China's system basically means that you lose the ability to acquire certain services if you are arbitrarily deemed to be a non-conformist.

Which services are those?

 

[Forever Sunrise]

Which services are those?

The video linked in the OP goes into a few details. Basically, while at the time of writing there are no penalties associated with having a low score, China has quite openly commented on the possibility of enforcing restrictions on internet speed and bandwidth available to low-score users in the future. There's been plenty of speculation that this could well be expanded in any number of other ways, such as price increases or delivery restrictions when dealing with online shopping outlets.