Sex under false pretenses. -

[InLivingTuna]

While dicking around Dan Olson's twitter looking for Metokur salt, this article he retweeted caught my eye:
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/why-we-need-to-talk-about-stealthing/

Most of it is pretty salty and it definitely has twinges of the whole "all men are evil rapists" approach that Dan loves so much, but it raises an interesting question; would you consider it rape if someone deceives you into agreeing to sex with them? It's not something I've seen talked about a lot, and when it comes to ethics, it might not even be a yes/no answer. For example, I imagine many people would consider it rape if you don't disclose your HIV+ status to a partner, but many of the same people would disagree that lying about using birth control is rape.

What are your thoughts on this? Where do you draw the line?

 

[ICametoLurk]

I came into this thread expecting stuff like Backroom Casting Couch.

 

[Camarque]

Where did this 'stealthing' shit come from? There was a very sudden media barrage a few days ago. I've never heard of it before and it sounds like kind of a stupid idea.

 

[AnOminous]

While dicking around Dan Olson's twitter looking for Metokur salt, this article he retweeted caught my eye:
http://www.doctornerdlove.com/why-we-need-to-talk-about-stealthing/

Most of it is pretty salty and it definitely has twinges of the whole "all men are evil rapists" approach that Dan loves so much, but it raises an interesting question; would you consider it rape if someone deceives you into agreeing to sex with them? It's not something I've seen talked about a lot, and when it comes to ethics, it might not even be a yes/no answer. For example, I imagine many people would consider it rape if you don't disclose your HIV+ status to a partner, but many of the same people would disagree that lying about using birth control is rape.

What are your thoughts on this? Where do you draw the line?

The law generally doesn't consider it such in the U.S.

That said, pulling a pickle surprise on someone is a pretty good way of getting your ass kicked or worse.

 

[GS 281]

Stealthing isn't a crime as far as I know. It should be a separate crime from rape, but rape is much different.

Also, to the point of sex under false pretenses, if you're old enough to consent, then if something matters enough then you will do your due diligence. There's ways to check if someone is married, has STDs, etc. At the end of the day though, it's just sex and we all have it with lots of different people. Some of them are shitty and we know it, some of them we find out are shitty later. Just don't let a stranger cum inside you if you are petrified of catching an STD or having a baby with an anon. And don't fuck fat people.

 

[Beaniebon]

Stealthing, lying about birth control, not disclosing STDs (like HIV) should be considered a sexual crime but I don't know about rape. Sexual assault doesn't work either. This needs a whole new category of criminal offense.

 

[Mrs Paul]

IIRC, haven't people been prosecuted for deliberately infecting others with HIV?

 

[WhatNemesisMeans]

At the end of the day though, it's just sex and we all have it with lots of different people.

lol

 

[Marvin]

I don't really care too much on either side of this argument. I guess I would probably lean towards the side that suggests you should make a reasonable attempt to vet your sexual partners.

But beyond just that, I really love the discussion on this when SJWs get ahold of it. It's a great tug-of-war between the "sexual agency" crowd and the "don't be a shitlord" crowd.

So, for example, let's say you wanted to bang (genetically) white people, and the person you're banging knew they were of some kind of mixed race. That's racist! But, sexual agency! Consent! Oh god, what do I do??

Here's a great argument about the topic between some SJWs.

Personally, I think that you're allowed to like or dislike anything when it comes to sex. Even if it's racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, whatever. Being a racist in the sack is not the same thing as being an actual racist. Being into BDSM doesn't (necessarily) mean you're a domestic abuser.

Stealthing, lying about birth control, not disclosing STDs (like HIV) should be considered a sexual crime but I don't know about rape. Sexual assault doesn't work either. This needs a whole new category of criminal offense.

I think "aggravated sexual assault" or something like it is would work.

 

[Alec Benson Leary]

I guess I would probably lean towards the side that suggests you should make a reasonable attempt to vet your sexual partners.

This.

I'm no prude, but the fact is that sex is a big deal even if you tell yourself it's not. Have as many sex partners as you like - but sex has consequences and it is your responsibility to make sure your partners are what you want them to be, not theirs.

That said, here I bring in my libertarian philosophy. You owe people nothing when it comes to secrets that affect no one else, but the opposite is also true. You pretend to be white but secretly are one quarter black? It hurts nothing other than her pride (presuming she's racist) so don't worry about it. You are HIV positive? Different story, I think you should be charged with a crime if you don't disclose that beforehand.

So what if you're trans? I think the "trans panic" defense is one of the most deplorable things in the modern history of American justice. If someone takes their pants off and has different genitals than what you expected? Doesn't stop you from saying no and walking away. What if they're post-op and you couldn't tell, they inform you later? Here's that point where you should've informed yourself before going for it, like I said sex is a big deal.

Opening up to a partner in the intimate way that sex requires is difficult for many, if not most people, everyone has hangups.

Tl,dr: caveat emptor, but also, have some respect and compassion.

 

[ZeCommissar]

I mean, if someone says they are going to have sex with you and give you $50, and then you have sex with them and it turns out they aren't giving you $50 then you are just a dumbass and it's not rape.

Giving someone HIV is already a crime in some places.

Sex under false pretenses could and SHOULD be another criminal category different from rape.

 

[InLivingTuna]

So the consensus in this thread seems to be "people should vet their partners beforehand, and if someone lies it isn't rape but in the more serious cases it should be some form of sex crime". I can't really say I disagree there, but I wonder what the sentencing for that would look like. Would it be a misdemeanor or a felony, or would it vary depending on what the lie was?

 

[cuddle striker]

if she says she's on the pill and she's not, it falls on the same category as him saying he's got on a condom when he doesn't.

I don't see any reason to think both of those actions are not some sort of fraud or coercion.

 

[AnOminous]

I mean, if someone says they are going to have sex with you and give you $50, and then you have sex with them and it turns out they aren't giving you $50 then you are just a dumbass and it's not rape.

Giving someone HIV is already a crime in some places.

Sex under false pretenses could and SHOULD be another criminal category different from rape.

One problem with that is that a contract to engage in prostitution isn't legal and courts aren't going to enforce an agreement to do something that was illegal in the first place, any more than you can sue your drug dealer for shorting you on your bag of weed, or for welshing on an illegal bet.

 

[Marvin]

if she says she's on the pill and she's not, it falls on the same category as him saying he's got on a condom when he doesn't.

I don't see any reason to think both of those actions are not some sort of fraud or coercion.

The missing condom is slightly worse because it carries the risk of bodily harm.

But yeah, they're both some sort of fraud.

 

[LukeMcGregor]

What a retarded thing to write.

 

[cuddle striker]

I like the term reproductive fraud, someone I know was using it to describe this. trying to reproduce with no consent. the issue keeping this out of actual case law is that people who are denied an abortion could then go after that state or whatever entity has prevented them.

The missing condom is slightly worse because it carries the risk of bodily harm.

But yeah, they're both some sort of fraud.

also "assault" if there's nonconsensual risk of physical harm.

that last chart is actually pretty accurate if you're using global statistics. some nations punish the raped, not the rapists. globally speaking, and without considering gender of the victims, that's a pretty accurate chart.

most male and underage victims don't report, most people who report don't make it to trial (getting your rape kit tested within a reasonable time costs hundreds, most places have a backlog and it could be years before a trial even begins, or the DA won't pick it up, because of this). that's in the western world. in undeveloped nations rape is like a plague and there's no prosecution or reporting at all.

false accusations are in fact rare.

it's exceptional to make the chart and the caption is batshit but it's not wrong, by global statistics.

eta: the reason women could then sue the state is that a law like this recognizes bodily autonomy as a legally defendable right. if you're denied an abortion, you could then sue (using this law as a criminal basis for a civil suit).

also, it opens up the child support can of worms, and tptb would like to avoid that if possible. right now most are opposed to having more kids on welfare. (the majority of welfare recipients are children and elderly white people already, why make that worse)

 

[BT 075]

A lot of people bullshit their way into someone else's pants. As long as you don't have any undisclosed STDs and don't try to cause actual bodily harm to the other partner, it's not necessarily the biggest deal in the world.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

In most cases I'd say no. I agree with what other people have said, that it should be a separate crime.

 

[AnOminous]

A lot of people bullshit their way into someone else's pants. As long as you don't have any undisclosed STDs and don't try to cause actual bodily harm to the other partner, it's not necessarily the biggest deal in the world.

It's also not really a lie if you believe it. So if you're trying to get into some chick's pants and you claim you're Kevin Costner, it's totally okay if you believe it.