South China Sea and Chinese Military Developments - While everyone is distracted by the pandemic, China's aggression in the SCS grows.

spiritofamermaid

Commissions Closed until May 7
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I have a cousin from Partizansk, former gulag territory just east of Vladistovok. This sounds very much like what Russia would do. Honestly it sounds like something the US would do as well. They both run quite a similar playbook.

Up there are also some NK labor camps, completely isolated and under contract of the Russian gov. Creepy stuff, with Nk propaganda posters and everything.

It just shows further proof that Russia does not have the infrastructure to capitalize on the port city of Vladivostok. They cannot sustain a huge population, nor justify building an industrial complex. Not with the distance from Moscow and any other meaningful city. They are opting to import labor for how, but this could change if they were to take over a great deal of Manchuria. Which I have labelled below on a map which displays Chinese cities with a population of over 0.8 mil. Aka cities with infrastructure that Russia would be happy to evict all occupants before claiming the territory as their own. Should it happen, the eviction process will almost certainly be assured, as that is what they did with the Germans in Kaliningrad. I imagine if the Germans stayed and mingled with the influx of Russians (of which my great grand father was one of the many to move there on exchange for a dacha we still have today) the region would not be so compliant.

View attachment 1477493

Obviously we can see that this is close to Bejing, far too close for comfort for the Chinese, especially if in war China must concede Manchuria (basically the area I have labelled), and that Russian border moves around where I have drawn.

As it stands, Vladivostok is not an ideal staging ground for an invasion given the environment and total lack of infrastructure, but it is a clearly exploitable weakness for the Chinese, should the Russians choose to be enemies of the Chinese. No doubt, when the Chinese are playing nice with Russia, they have this weakness in mind - a border that is much less of a risk on the occasion that the Chinese invade Russia, vs Russians invading China.

I cannot help but continue to draw parallels to ww2, given that the Russians basically divided Germany's army into two fronts. I can see this happening in a future war scenario, the US coming from the south and Russia using this Manchurian corridor to invade from the north, directly into Bejing, not in unsimilar to Berlin.


Many people in the US focus very hard on the present day tensions. The more recent historical events. But Russia and China are ancient, in comparison north America is like a toddler. Their perceptions are based on hundreds, of not nearly a thousand years of interactions.

Recent history can be irrelevant. For example, Peter the Great, waaay back in the late 1600s, stated that one of his greatest ambitions for Russia was to gain a warm water port.

Putin has this near the very top of his own list of goals. In fact, there are a lot of similarities between these two in terms of aspirations and strategy. Peter was a RABID expansionist, claiming ports along the Baltic Sea and Sea of Azov. Which are coincidentally similar to Kaliningrad and Crimea, two territories Russia has taken in the last century.

He modernized Russia a great deal during a time where it had fallen behind its European counterparts. While his attempts to build good favor with European powers failed miserably, he earned the "great" moniker because he brought Russia on equal footing with the most powerful countries in the world. Mainly this was done through embracing science and maritime pursuits.

While I do not think Putin and Peter are the same in many facets, it is their gameplan which mirrors each other quite well. Philosophically they have many differences, but the goals and reasons behind it are quite similar.

Hope I have not gone too off topic here. I enjoy discussing these two countries.
If Russia wins, and continues its hold on the Baltic Sea and the Sea of Azov, will we have a repeat of the Aral Sea?
 

Consenticles

Sic semper tyrannis
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
If Russia wins, and continues its hold on the Baltic Sea and the Sea of Azov, will we have a repeat of the Aral Sea?
Aral sea was landlocked, inland. Its water was redirected for agriculture and had no way to replenishing itself.

map-shrinking-Aral-Sea.gif
(Gif)

Baltic sea connects to the greater oceans. While its depth is far less than the surrounding oceanic boundaries, it would be quite a trick to drain it. Could it happen? Yes, but it would require the water level of the ocean to drop below the depth of the baltic sea.... which is not really realistic unless you are considering the scenario to be over hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Baltic-Sea-North-English-Channel.jpg
Here is a depth chart for you guys to reference

For a more precise answer that is supported by political ramifications: absolutely not. The port itself is too valuable to Russia. If they drained the Baltic Sea then they would lose their only direct port to Europe.

Not to mention at that point Kaliningrad just becomes a useless point of interest. The entire economy of the area is not rooted in agriculture, unlike the nearby areas of the Aral Sea. Kaliningrad is an economic hub due to location, plus it is the world's foremost source of amber.... and much of the amber itself is swept ashore from the baltic sea. It is a finite resource, but the exportation of the amber has been a foundation of the economy since the time of the Roman Empire.

Attached is one of my foremost references to Old Prussian related research, if anyone is interested. It has some fascinating info about amber and the natural and historical significance of the area.
 

Attachments

  • Aleksander_Pluskowski_-_The_Archaeology_of_the_Prussian_Crusade__Holy_War_and_Colonisation-Rou...pdf
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ArthuriusMartyrius

kiwifarms.net
I doubt China is stupid enough to go to proper war over SCS. They are a far, far older civilization than either Russia or the US and they are pretty damn well aware that a full-out war will drain their resources to breaking point despite propaganda. The US military is more likely to be the aggressor because they want to get rid of a potential competitor and this is, I suspect, what China are trying to do just in case things really heat up - bait USA into attacking first and then cry that they are only defending the homeland. It is far harder to drag NATO and a whole bunch of allied states into yet another major conflict when you are viewed as the party that started the mess in the first place. Same kinda goes for Russia, who are getting buddy-buddy with China despite some conflict here and there because they know the US and NATO wants them gone. China, for now, doesn't really care.
 

Snekposter

No wolves on Fenris, no gators in Florida.
kiwifarms.net
I've been trying to learn about modern Chinese military tactics and strategies, but outside of Tiananmen Square and primeval warfare with India, I can't find any solid answers. Is there combat doctrine still stuck in the Korean and Sino-Vietnamese war?
I imagine they've been reading up on whatever textbooks and manuals they've stolen from the Americans, Europeans, and Russians. But beyond that any modern practical experience is from subjugating a defenseless and worn-down domestic population.
Late but... pretty much. The PLA is mostly a domestic suppression force, and while the upper ranks have certainly been reading things, how much of that has actually percolated down to the lower ranks is anyone's guess. It doesn't matter how the generals want a war to be fought if the guys with guns are trained entirely differently.
 
Double posting for serious business!


China is going to add more nuclear warheads to its arsenal! Get ready for some scare tactics!

It's an event worth noting. But it's also an event not worth getting excited over. They've already got enough nukes to blow up everything, so do we, so do the Russians, and so do other people. Woohoo! But it makes a good sound byte and can be used to scare suburban housewives into getting the DoD more funding for fun projects.
 

mindlessobserver

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I have a cousin from Partizansk, former gulag territory just east of Vladistovok. This sounds very much like what Russia would do. Honestly it sounds like something the US would do as well. They both run quite a similar playbook.

Up there are also some NK labor camps, completely isolated and under contract of the Russian gov. Creepy stuff, with Nk propaganda posters and everything.

It just shows further proof that Russia does not have the infrastructure to capitalize on the port city of Vladivostok. They cannot sustain a huge population, nor justify building an industrial complex. Not with the distance from Moscow and any other meaningful city. They are opting to import labor for how, but this could change if they were to take over a great deal of Manchuria. Which I have labelled below on a map which displays Chinese cities with a population of over 0.8 mil. Aka cities with infrastructure that Russia would be happy to evict all occupants before claiming the territory as their own. Should it happen, the eviction process will almost certainly be assured, as that is what they did with the Germans in Kaliningrad. I imagine if the Germans stayed and mingled with the influx of Russians (of which my great grand father was one of the many to move there on exchange for a dacha we still have today) the region would not be so compliant.

View attachment 1477493

Obviously we can see that this is close to Bejing, far too close for comfort for the Chinese, especially if in war China must concede Manchuria (basically the area I have labelled), and that Russian border moves around where I have drawn.

As it stands, Vladivostok is not an ideal staging ground for an invasion given the environment and total lack of infrastructure, but it is a clearly exploitable weakness for the Chinese, should the Russians choose to be enemies of the Chinese. No doubt, when the Chinese are playing nice with Russia, they have this weakness in mind - a border that is much less of a risk on the occasion that the Chinese invade Russia, vs Russians invading China.

I cannot help but continue to draw parallels to ww2, given that the Russians basically divided Germany's army into two fronts. I can see this happening in a future war scenario, the US coming from the south and Russia using this Manchurian corridor to invade from the north, directly into Bejing, not in unsimilar to Berlin.


Many people in the US focus very hard on the present day tensions. The more recent historical events. But Russia and China are ancient, in comparison north America is like a toddler. Their perceptions are based on hundreds, of not nearly a thousand years of interactions.

Recent history can be irrelevant. For example, Peter the Great, waaay back in the late 1600s, stated that one of his greatest ambitions for Russia was to gain a warm water port.

Putin has this near the very top of his own list of goals. In fact, there are a lot of similarities between these two in terms of aspirations and strategy. Peter was a RABID expansionist, claiming ports along the Baltic Sea and Sea of Azov. Which are coincidentally similar to Kaliningrad and Crimea, two territories Russia has taken in the last century.

He modernized Russia a great deal during a time where it had fallen behind its European counterparts. While his attempts to build good favor with European powers failed miserably, he earned the "great" moniker because he brought Russia on equal footing with the most powerful countries in the world. Mainly this was done through embracing science and maritime pursuits.

While I do not think Putin and Peter are the same in many facets, it is their gameplan which mirrors each other quite well. Philosophically they have many differences, but the goals and reasons behind it are quite similar.

Hope I have not gone too off topic here. I enjoy discussing these two countries.

There are also two factors working towards US and Russian relations improving over time. Unlike the USSR, the Russian Federation is not interested in fomenting global communist revolution and conquering Western Europe. Its strategic aims are far more localized to Eurasia where the US has little to no interests. Cold Warriors in Washington might bang on about backing Georgia and Ukraine, or human rights in Chechnya, but most Americans really dont give a shit.

There is also the factor that despite claims to the contrary, Russia has a western mindset, not an Asian one. Certainly one that is unique to Russia, but it's not incomprehensible to Americans. The inverse is also true. I think as time goes on and the Cold War becomes so much history the US and Russia may find they agree on more then they disagree.

And China being a big fucking problem is one of those things. My dream scenario though is if ties between the US and Russia really improve there can be moves to improve the Russian Far East. Its 5,000 Kilometers from Anchorage to Vladivostok, compare to 9,000 kilometers from Moscow. Over easily crossable water rather then massive mountains and Taiga. Warmer ties would mean greater interest in development projects.
 

RodgerDodger

True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
There are also two factors working towards US and Russian relations improving over time. Unlike the USSR, the Russian Federation is not interested in fomenting global communist revolution and conquering Western Europe. Its strategic aims are far more localized to Eurasia where the US has little to no interests. Cold Warriors in Washington might bang on about backing Georgia and Ukraine, or human rights in Chechnya, but most Americans really dont give a shit.

There is also the factor that despite claims to the contrary, Russia has a western mindset, not an Asian one. Certainly one that is unique to Russia, but it's not incomprehensible to Americans. The inverse is also true. I think as time goes on and the Cold War becomes so much history the US and Russia may find they agree on more then they disagree.

And China being a big fucking problem is one of those things. My dream scenario though is if ties between the US and Russia really improve there can be moves to improve the Russian Far East. Its 5,000 Kilometers from Anchorage to Vladivostok, compare to 9,000 kilometers from Moscow. Over easily crossable water rather then massive mountains and Taiga. Warmer ties would mean greater interest in development projects.

I've long believed that the easiest way to deal with the Russian Navy in the Pacific, is to offer them Port of Call and Shore Leave in Hawaii. Other then some extremely petty island claims off Northern Japan there really is no direct conflict points between the US and Russia. Does anybody actually give two shits about Belarus? We sure as shit haven't cared that they've been under the heel of a brutal dictator for years. Why start now? Ukraine is somebody elses problem. And any idiot that proposes Expanding Nato should face an immediate firing squad. We aren't mercenery's who fight wars against Putin for local Corruptocrats.
 

Consenticles

Sic semper tyrannis
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
There are also two factors working towards US and Russian relations improving over time. Unlike the USSR, the Russian Federation is not interested in fomenting global communist revolution and conquering Western Europe. Its strategic aims are far more localized to Eurasia where the US has little to no interests. Cold Warriors in Washington might bang on about backing Georgia and Ukraine, or human rights in Chechnya, but most Americans really dont give a shit.

There is also the factor that despite claims to the contrary, Russia has a western mindset, not an Asian one. Certainly one that is unique to Russia, but it's not incomprehensible to Americans. The inverse is also true. I think as time goes on and the Cold War becomes so much history the US and Russia may find they agree on more then they disagree.

And China being a big fucking problem is one of those things. My dream scenario though is if ties between the US and Russia really improve there can be moves to improve the Russian Far East. Its 5,000 Kilometers from Anchorage to Vladivostok, compare to 9,000 kilometers from Moscow. Over easily crossable water rather then massive mountains and Taiga. Warmer ties would mean greater interest in development projects.
It would open a lot of unexplored options for manufacturing and shipping via land if we can get some sort of serious program going between the far east (former) gulags and Alaska. I imagine the quality of life and affordability of living in a place like Alaska would go down, and the same could be said for these former gulag towns.

With COVID we will begin to see a whole new generation of introverts who find it just fine to not have to live in a city or interact with people face to face.

A lot of Alaskan land is empty and ripe for any sort of industry.
While factories there would have to abide by the US's minimum wage laws, there are several companies who take advantage of the real estate and a population who is, for ththe most part, not college educated, and willing to do labor intensive jobs.

I think a few things will happen concerning Russia and the US. And China will be a big part of it.

First, we are reaching a critical point in the way of relations with Russia. I know many of you will disagree, but i think Putin is a lot more willing to work with the US than as would be portrayed by mainstream media sources.

I think the greatest obstacles are the same for both the Democrats and Republicans: burying the hatchet and stop leaning on Russia as a boogeyman. Because we have much bigger fish to fry.

Putin is indeed expansionist and I will be the first one to agree with the fact that he brings a KGB mentality to the entire government. Corruption follows him. But the Russians need a strong leader (think Peter the Great) to bring them further into the West's bubble - even if it is kicking and screaming (again, Peter the Great did this). As stands, I do not know of a better solution than Putin to fill this void, but that is also in part due to Putin suppressing most opposition right as it gains any sort of momentum.

Russia has and will always beEuropean, with its last monarchs being closely related to countless European rulers. Czar Nik II was a doppelganger of George of England, funny enough.

But they have yet to define themselves in the post-Soviet era. I almost feel like they have lost a bit of their identity and still cannot find it. Each time they wish to make a dent in some industry or another, they are rebuffed by the West. It does not mean they havent deserved sanctions or even rejection at times, but I think any nation has an issue when they lack the capacity to define themselves.

In fact. the situation with Russia and the US today are alike in many ways. Much of Russia is torn between "the communist experiment was bad" and "I didnt mind it" ... so there is a strong division between those who wish to forget this ugly time in history and those who yearn for the glory days.

Sound familiar? The answer is always somewhere in between the extremes.

But anyway, other than internal factors on both sides (see: Whoever wins the 2020 election) the other thing that will either help or harm relations is this growing threat of China.

As I have stated earlier, I personally believe that in a resulting conflict between China and the US, Russia will be a huge deciding factor for the outcome. But they arent going to join either side right away. Putin, if anything, is shrewd and patient. He will wait until the opportune moment to present Russia as a savior and the it will be decided by 1. Who is going to give Russia the best reward 2. Who is the safest horse to bet on

The thing is, Russia is not cozy with China. And if we are able to move aside and expose the Russian narrative as a lie in the US, then this will certainly help us. If we dwell on it too long, the US could back Russia into a corner that would force them to curry favor with China.

One factor that I have not touched upon is the melting of ththe ice over the North pole. If the world's trading partners can navigate through it, we will suddenly have a shipping corridor to rival that of the SCS.

Russia, the US, and many other nations are pressing strong claims on this area. Russia wants foreign craft to recognize ththe territory as theirs, the US is trying to keep it as a neutral zone.

But, of course we have China again butting into this. China for some reason believes it has a right to this corridor. Which is fucking insane because it is not even close to the north pole in any capacity.

Russia sees this corridor not only as a territorial gain, but as an opportunity to delegate a new and shorter path for trade goods. It would make them very powerful, giving them yet another northern port and leading ththe way for much more money to come into the country. Because travel to the northern parts of the greater Russian landmass by boat would be much, much less costly, and you dont exactly have the problems with pirates that you would in warmer waters.
 

Consenticles

Sic semper tyrannis
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
This is hilarious if true. China is a lolcow.

The Arctic Policy of China outlines China's approach to foreign relations with Arctic countries as well as its plans to develop infrastructure, extend military capabilities, conduct research, and excavate resources within the Arctic Circle. A major component of this plan is to build a Polar Silk Road, a network of trade routes through the Arctic to help expedite global shipping delivery.[1]

In January 2018, China released its official Arctic Policy paper.[1] The document draws a picture of how China views the economic possibilities the region offers. With this, China has vowed to actively participate in Arctic affairs as a "Near-Arctic State" and a major stakeholder in the Arctic.[2] China has also focused on developing military projection capabilities that would extend into the Arctic region.[3][4]
 
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