Sperg about comic books here -

JimiHendrix

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Sure, I get that it's an alternate universe, but it seems like the author has kind a "Batman is really only a violent psycho" bent to his writing, while being weirdly sympathetic to Joker. I wouldn't know about Injustice Superman, since I haven't played it.

I'm always just a little leery when I see terms like SJW used in comics, because that usually means there's going to be some unsubtle politisperging incoming. I mean, I see your point, but it's just too much of a warning sign.

Sure, I don't mind, go ahead.
Yeah the writer does do some "Batman is kind of a super asshole" and there are moments of "that would never work on batman"
but overall, I think it's a good read with some neat ideas.

As for the spoilers, so in this universe Joker captures Jason Todd, just like in the main universe. Harley enjoyed being Jokers sidekick when it was all bank robberies and the like, but with Joker about to kill a literal child, Harley decides she can't be apart of this and leaves him.

Joker does not even notice she leaves, and a few days later he robs a bank, while robbing it he begins barking orders at this blonde bank teller, and I don't remember the exact reasoning, like she's disillusioned with her life and depressed or some shit, but the point is she goes along with it and Joker never realizes this isn't the original Harley.

Oh, there's also a really good line in it I just remembered, when Batman is talking to the original Harley, he tells her essentially. "Didn't you ever wonder why I never went as hard on you as other criminals? Why you were always together in Arkham and never separated? Because you and I are the only two people who know. For as bad as Joker was. He wasn't nearly as bad as he wanted to be."
 

Jasonfan89

Ki ki ki ma ma ma
kiwifarms.net
Yeah the writer does do some "Batman is kind of a super asshole" and there are moments of "that would never work on batman"
but overall, I think it's a good read with some neat ideas.

As for the spoilers, so in this universe Joker captures Jason Todd, just like in the main universe. Harley enjoyed being Jokers sidekick when it was all bank robberies and the like, but with Joker about to kill a literal child, Harley decides she can't be apart of this and leaves him.

Joker does not even notice she leaves, and a few days later he robs a bank, while robbing it he begins barking orders at this blonde bank teller, and I don't remember the exact reasoning, like she's disillusioned with her life and depressed or some shit, but the point is she goes along with it and Joker never realizes this isn't the original Harley.

Oh, there's also a really good line in it I just remembered, when Batman is talking to the original Harley, he tells her essentially. "Didn't you ever wonder why I never went as hard on you as other criminals? Why you were always together in Arkham and never separated? Because you and I are the only two people who know. For as bad as Joker was. He wasn't nearly as bad as he wanted to be."
Also the other DC black label Harley book harleen is a good read too. It's basically a deconstruction of Harley's entire back story. Her life going from a med school failure who slept her way through school to an emotional wreck who got seduced by a maniac. It almost feels like it was written specifically to show Harley is NOT a symbol of female empowerment and her relationship with joker is not an "awww look how cute like jack skelington and Sally." The way those Spencer's t-shirts and suicide squad tried to portray it as.
 
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JimiHendrix

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Also the other DC black label Harley book harleen is a good read too. It's basically a deconstruction of Harley's entire back story. Her life going from a med school failure who slept her way through school to an emotional wreck who got seduced by a maniac. It almost feels like it was written specifically to show Harley is NOT a symbol of female empowerment and her relationship with joker is not an "awww look how cute like jack skelington and Sally." The way those Spencer's t-shirts and suicide squad tried to portray it as.
Yes, we discussed Harleen above, however I wanted to point out that she is not a "med school failure who slept her way through school"

Part of Harleys backstory, her canonical backstory is she was either a brilliant med student who easily passed through med school OR she was mostly an idiot who slept her way there. The first one was the original one, the second one was retconned in.

Harleen fuses these backstories by having her be a brilliant medical student, who just so happened to also be sleeping with her professor, so all of her achievements were attributed to her sleeping through school, even though technically, she did not. Which is something that's even specifically stated in the Harleen comic.
 

Czargon the Red

kiwifarms.net
ok I'm enjoying Empyre in its early stages. I hope Marvel at least does this half-decently because holy hell.

It's been, what, 40 years or sth for the Celestial Madonna thing to come to fruition. Even being the gigantic mainstream comics reader I am, I forgot about that particular arc because noone wanted to capitalize on the potential until now.

Here's hoping that they don't fuck up this and that the trees get burned to the ground.
 
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Jasonfan89

Ki ki ki ma ma ma
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Yes, we discussed Harleen above, however I wanted to point out that she is not a "med school failure who slept her way through school"

Part of Harleys backstory, her canonical backstory is she was either a brilliant med student who easily passed through med school OR she was mostly an idiot who slept her way there. The first one was the original one, the second one was retconned in.

Harleen fuses these backstories by having her be a brilliant medical student, who just so happened to also be sleeping with her professor, so all of her achievements were attributed to her sleeping through school, even though technically, she did not. Which is something that's even specifically stated in the Harleen comic.
Ah kk my bad thanks for the correction on that
 
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Tor Lugosi

The Holy One of Israel
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I mostly liked White Knight. My main problem with it is that a lot of it obsesses with the middle-aged fanboy theory of "omg like batman and joker are gay for each other lol soo deep" nonsense. In probably at least 90% of the Joker's 80 years worth of stories he's treated as just another villain that hatches a criminal scheme and that Batman then punches in the face.

As for Harley Quinn, I've always thought the best way to utilize her outside of the Joker is to put her on the Suicide Squad and (since she's outclassed in strength and physical skills) have her be the schemer of the group, manipulating both the antagonists and her own team, making use of her psychological training. But, due to her insanity, have her either just get bored halfway through her plans or have them occasionally just be complete nonsense, adding tension of whether or not her plan will actually work or if its just a lead-up to some dumb punchline.

I know she is on the Suicide Squad a lot but from the handful of those issues I've read she's usually just female Deadpool - making quips and swinging around her mallet.
 

JimiHendrix

kiwifarms.net
I mostly liked White Knight. My main problem with it is that a lot of it obsesses with the middle-aged fanboy theory of "omg like batman and joker are gay for each other lol soo deep" nonsense. In probably at least 90% of the Joker's 80 years worth of stories he's treated as just another villain that hatches a criminal scheme and that Batman then punches in the face.

As for Harley Quinn, I've always thought the best way to utilize her outside of the Joker is to put her on the Suicide Squad and (since she's outclassed in strength and physical skills) have her be the schemer of the group, manipulating both the antagonists and her own team, making use of her psychological training. But, due to her insanity, have her either just get bored halfway through her plans or have them occasionally just be complete nonsense, adding tension of whether or not her plan will actually work or if its just a lead-up to some dumb punchline.

I know she is on the Suicide Squad a lot but from the handful of those issues I've read she's usually just female Deadpool - making quips and swinging around her mallet.
I enjoy the idea of Joker being more than just "another villain" I mean, obviously I don't want Joker and Batman to fuck. But some sense of twisted needing there is interesting.

I think one of the best examples of this I ever saw was Arkham Origins version of Joker meeting Harley, where he's telling her all about how he just met someone who gives his life meaning, someone he finally thinks understands him, and the entire time Harley thinks Joker is talking about her, but he's actually talking about fucking Batman. I just found that to be the absolute perfect encapsulation of their relationships with each other.
 

Cactuar King

kiwifarms.net
I know she is on the Suicide Squad a lot but from the handful of those issues I've read she's usually just female Deadpool - making quips and swinging around her mallet.
And in New 52, taking over as leader when Rick Flag disappears for some reason. Great choice there, Waller.
 

Jasonfan89

Ki ki ki ma ma ma
kiwifarms.net
So getting away from Harley for a minute.

Just finished reading my hardcover copy of watchmen and I gotta say. Alan Moore intended Rorschach to be what he felt an "objectivist hero." Would be like. And yet at the very end of the story when he's refusing to compromise his views even in the face of Armageddon and rather have Dr Manhattan kill him than surrended he ended up embodying the one virtue of objectivism that's almost as important as "the importance of the self and no man can control a life but his own." To never compromise your values ever. I see why Ted Cruz was apparently such a fan of the guy
 

AnOminous

Really?
True & Honest Fan
Retired Staff
kiwifarms.net
So getting away from Harley for a minute.

Just finished reading my hardcover copy of watchmen and I gotta say. Alan Moore intended Rorschach to be what he felt an "objectivist hero."
He intended him as a parody of Steve Ditko's The Question/Mr. A (the first a "comics-safe" version of Mr. A), and of superheroes in general, and his conclusion that if you think about it, the kind of person who would act like a superhero is basically a lunatic.

Would be like. And yet at the very end of the story when he's refusing to compromise his views even in the face of Armageddon and rather have Dr Manhattan kill him than surrended he ended up embodying the one virtue of objectivism that's almost as important as "the importance of the self and no man can control a life but his own." To never compromise your values ever. I see why Ted Cruz was apparently such a fan of the guy
And then, while actually still being a lunatic and the parody of objectivism Moore intended, he ironically turns out the only character in Watchmen who is unquestionably a true hero, and his death is one of the most moving and tragic scenes in all of comics.
 
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TchPiKinmup

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talentless freak, Sina Grace, returns to bitch about Marvel not handing him works, despite all of his books being failures:


On the subject of marvel comics …

If we’re gonna talk about how Marvel does literally nothing about giving a leg up to marginalized creators and staff members, I’ve got another story to tell. Towards the end of my time there, I’d been getting a sense that marvel editors were lying about keeping me in mind for projects after iceman, and the following incident sealed the deal in terms of being told (not in any legally binding way) that I had overstayed my welcome at the house of ideas.

Sometime in 2018, an editor at a different publishing house asked if I’d pitch for an all-ages Spider-Man book they were licensed to produce. Considering I saw CB Cebulski have a conniption at a comic con party when another Marvel Comics writer told him he’d been courted to do the same for avengers, I asked that editorial to make absolutely sure marvel was cool with me pitching for this project. The editor got approval, and I wrote a damn good idea that was on the fast track to being the next arc in the series. For those who aren’t familiar, when you’re not a household name, pitching for a legacy character is quite a bit of work. Given my lifelong love of Spider-Man, it wasn’t exactly grueling to come up with a handful of ideas and then properly outline the one my editor liked the most… but it’s still work. All that being said, I felt great about the final document, and that I’d bought myself a few more months of being Marvel-adjacent so I could continue growing my reputation for being known for my writing chops, and rinse off the notion that I was ever anyone’s diversity hire.

Cut to a few weeks later, and my editor tells me that I can’t be used for the series. The exact words he relayed from Marvel were: “they’d like to keep the focus on iceman for now.” That e-mail came in the day I turned in my last script for Iceman. I reached out to Marvel’s talent relations guy, and he got me on the phone to explain a completely different reason why I was taken off the book: he said that Marvel only wanted people with experience in all-ages because there were different formatting rules than what goes into a standard comic script (a half truth that doesn’t matter when you read the next sentence). I mentioned that I did an all-ages book for Simon and Schuster, a middle grade series for Image Comics, short stories for Boom Studios, and edited an all-ages title for Robert Kirkman. The talent relations guy was like, “Oh, I didn’t know all that.” He then went on to say that Marvel had a list of people they wanted this editor to approach and as a result some wires got crossed and thus I was out of several months’ work. He didn’t offer to fix the problem, he didn’t offer to throw me on any number of space-filler mini-series that were just basically keeping Jonathan Hickman’s seat warm… nothing.

In response, I said to the talent relations guy: “Do you believe what you’re telling me?”

He didn’t have a particularly good answer.

Oh if you’re wondering: like NONE of the writers who did end up getting hired for these all-ages titles had legitimate experience with all-ages material. They’re all great writers and some of them are my homies, but it’s not like they came from scholastic or random house.

All of this is to say: I went above and beyond to make sure I was approved to pitch on a project, I worked my butt off and wrote something my editor was incredibly enthusiastic about, and then I magically got unpicked and wasn’t offered a reasonable explanation, a substitute gig, or a kill fee for the work I had put in on the proposal. Thanks, Marvel.

This whole debacle wasn’t included in a piece I wrote last year because the editor I was working with asked me not to. Given that his relationship with Marvel was already tenuous, he didn’t really need more pressure/ stress. This guy went to bat for me and helped get me one of my favorite gigs, and having been in his position as an editor dealing with multiple bureaucracies, I didn’t want to make his life any harder. But he’s no longer at that company, and he gave me permission to bring this up. So here we are.

I hate that I’m once again in a position where I have to call out Marvel on some BS, because I don’t know that anything positive will come from it, and that everything I’ve done in my career will once again be boiled down to: “semi-attractive queer comic creator complains about marvel comics.” Like, never mind that I’ve been at this since I was in high school, ran Kirkman’s imprint on my own before I was 25, and have gone on to write almost all of my favorite DC Comics characters after leaving Marvel. It’s shitty to be an individual talking about a beloved company… but it’s the right thing to do. The only thing I can 100% predict will happen from me speaking up is: a bunch of haters are going to get back on my dick again and make social media unbearable. To those folks, my birthday is on Monday… can you maybe not? Just this once?

Stories like what I’ve written need to be considered when discussing if Marvel has actually done anything to be accountable for not only hiring more diversely, but for fostering an environment where those people feel valued. My only advice to Marvel would be: fucking hire a third party organization to teach you all how to do this right… you can’t keep propping Sana up on a podium and pat yourselves on the back for doing half of the bare minimum. I hate that I still love your books (I spent good money buying the oversized Silver Surfer Black collection), and I just wish that the gatekeepers were a bit more responsible and cognizant of how deep their behavior and apathy cuts. Granted, this is a company that has a bad reputation for not treating anybody fairly, so there is always the argument that Marvel Comics is just run by a box of pythons who indiscriminately poison and devour folks. I’m not sure… after 18 months away from them, I still try to excuse the bad behavior and blame myself for how things went down.

In short, he's pissed that he wasn't given a new non-Marvel published Spider-man book to write. Spider-man, the flagship character of the whole company, after he couldn't even write a D-tier Iceman book.
 
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Czargon the Red

kiwifarms.net
talentless freak, Sina Grace, returns to bitch about Marvel not handing him works, despite all of his books being failures:


On the subject of marvel comics …

If we’re gonna talk about how Marvel does literally nothing about giving a leg up to marginalized creators and staff members, I’ve got another story to tell. Towards the end of my time there, I’d been getting a sense that marvel editors were lying about keeping me in mind for projects after iceman, and the following incident sealed the deal in terms of being told (not in any legally binding way) that I had overstayed my welcome at the house of ideas.

Sometime in 2018, an editor at a different publishing house asked if I’d pitch for an all-ages Spider-Man book they were licensed to produce. Considering I saw CB Cebulski have a conniption at a comic con party when another Marvel Comics writer told him he’d been courted to do the same for avengers, I asked that editorial to make absolutely sure marvel was cool with me pitching for this project. The editor got approval, and I wrote a damn good idea that was on the fast track to being the next arc in the series. For those who aren’t familiar, when you’re not a household name, pitching for a legacy character is quite a bit of work. Given my lifelong love of Spider-Man, it wasn’t exactly grueling to come up with a handful of ideas and then properly outline the one my editor liked the most… but it’s still work. All that being said, I felt great about the final document, and that I’d bought myself a few more months of being Marvel-adjacent so I could continue growing my reputation for being known for my writing chops, and rinse off the notion that I was ever anyone’s diversity hire.

Cut to a few weeks later, and my editor tells me that I can’t be used for the series. The exact words he relayed from Marvel were: “they’d like to keep the focus on iceman for now.” That e-mail came in the day I turned in my last script for Iceman. I reached out to Marvel’s talent relations guy, and he got me on the phone to explain a completely different reason why I was taken off the book: he said that Marvel only wanted people with experience in all-ages because there were different formatting rules than what goes into a standard comic script (a half truth that doesn’t matter when you read the next sentence). I mentioned that I did an all-ages book for Simon and Schuster, a middle grade series for Image Comics, short stories for Boom Studios, and edited an all-ages title for Robert Kirkman. The talent relations guy was like, “Oh, I didn’t know all that.” He then went on to say that Marvel had a list of people they wanted this editor to approach and as a result some wires got crossed and thus I was out of several months’ work. He didn’t offer to fix the problem, he didn’t offer to throw me on any number of space-filler mini-series that were just basically keeping Jonathan Hickman’s seat warm… nothing.

In response, I said to the talent relations guy: “Do you believe what you’re telling me?”

He didn’t have a particularly good answer.

Oh if you’re wondering: like NONE of the writers who did end up getting hired for these all-ages titles had legitimate experience with all-ages material. They’re all great writers and some of them are my homies, but it’s not like they came from scholastic or random house.

All of this is to say: I went above and beyond to make sure I was approved to pitch on a project, I worked my butt off and wrote something my editor was incredibly enthusiastic about, and then I magically got unpicked and wasn’t offered a reasonable explanation, a substitute gig, or a kill fee for the work I had put in on the proposal. Thanks, Marvel.

This whole debacle wasn’t included in a piece I wrote last year because the editor I was working with asked me not to. Given that his relationship with Marvel was already tenuous, he didn’t really need more pressure/ stress. This guy went to bat for me and helped get me one of my favorite gigs, and having been in his position as an editor dealing with multiple bureaucracies, I didn’t want to make his life any harder. But he’s no longer at that company, and he gave me permission to bring this up. So here we are.

I hate that I’m once again in a position where I have to call out Marvel on some BS, because I don’t know that anything positive will come from it, and that everything I’ve done in my career will once again be boiled down to: “semi-attractive queer comic creator complains about marvel comics.” Like, never mind that I’ve been at this since I was in high school, ran Kirkman’s imprint on my own before I was 25, and have gone on to write almost all of my favorite DC Comics characters after leaving Marvel. It’s shitty to be an individual talking about a beloved company… but it’s the right thing to do. The only thing I can 100% predict will happen from me speaking up is: a bunch of haters are going to get back on my dick again and make social media unbearable. To those folks, my birthday is on Monday… can you maybe not? Just this once?

Stories like what I’ve written need to be considered when discussing if Marvel has actually done anything to be accountable for not only hiring more diversely, but for fostering an environment where those people feel valued. My only advice to Marvel would be: fucking hire a third party organization to teach you all how to do this right… you can’t keep propping Sana up on a podium and pat yourselves on the back for doing half of the bare minimum. I hate that I still love your books (I spent good money buying the oversized Silver Surfer Black collection), and I just wish that the gatekeepers were a bit more responsible and cognizant of how deep their behavior and apathy cuts. Granted, this is a company that has a bad reputation for not treating anybody fairly, so there is always the argument that Marvel Comics is just run by a box of pythons who indiscriminately poison and devour folks. I’m not sure… after 18 months away from them, I still try to excuse the bad behavior and blame myself for how things went down.

In short, he's pissed that he wasn't given a new non-Marvel published Spider-man book to write. Spider-man, the flagship character of the whole company, after he couldn't even write a D-tier Iceman book.
all he did was just turn Iceman into a stereotype. What's funny is that the whole thing started when young Jean Grey poked in kid iceman's head and may or may not have brainwashed him and then his adult counterpart.

But it's ok because it promotes a social justice talking point, right?

Now if this happened to someone that had a well established heterosexual life, like Peter Parker, or Tony Stark, or w/e, this'd get more controversy. However, since Iceman doesn't get a ton of character development, I don't think a ton of people cared. All I recall is that he had a period of time where he was hitched to some japanese woman in the comics through the 80s and early 90s iirc. I think her name was Opal Tanaka?
 

Water-T

Zach made me clean the shower with my mouth again
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Now if this happened to someone that had a well established heterosexual life, like Peter Parker, or Tony Stark, or w/e, this'd get more controversy. However, since Iceman doesn't get a ton of character development, I don't think a ton of people cared. All I recall is that he had a period of time where he was hitched to some japanese woman in the comics through the 80s and early 90s iirc. I think her name was Opal Tanaka?
Bobby has been chasing pussy since day one. he constantly butted heads with Havok over Polaris, then lusted after Darkstar when he was in The Champions and Moondragon and Cloud in The Defenders (ironically, Cloud changed from a woman to a man to be with Moondragon, and nowadays, Moondragon is dating the daughter of the first Captain Marvel).

Yes, Bobby dated Opal during his time with X-Factor, but her father couldn't accept his daughter dating a white devil which strained the relationship and they broke it off. Then before the whole "bring back the original 5 X-men to the present" fuckery happened, he dated Kitty Pryde when she was on a break from getting wrecked by Colossus' metal dick.

As a homo, i'm completely pissed they pulled this retcon shit. "OH BUT THEY WERE ALL BEARDS!" they say. LOL. Bobby mooned over so many girls and moped so hard when they left that it's fairly obvious that his feelings were real. At least when Obsidian of Infinity Inc and Shatterstar of X-Force came out, all the signs that they were really into guys despite prior relationships with women were already there. This was not the case with Bobby.

I keep hoping that someone at Marvel would have the balls to re-retcon this as mindfuckery by Jean, but this would result in NPC screeching that would tear a hole between dimensions and bring forth demons.
 

Czargon the Red

kiwifarms.net
Bobby has been chasing pussy since day one. he constantly butted heads with Havok over Polaris, then lusted after Darkstar when he was in The Champions and Moondragon and Cloud in The Defenders (ironically, Cloud changed from a woman to a man to be with Moondragon, and nowadays, Moondragon is dating the daughter of the first Captain Marvel).

Yes, Bobby dated Opal during his time with X-Factor, but her father couldn't accept his daughter dating a white devil which strained the relationship and they broke it off. Then before the whole "bring back the original 5 X-men to the present" fuckery happened, he dated Kitty Pryde when she was on a break from getting wrecked by Colossus' metal dick.

As a homo, i'm completely pissed they pulled this retcon shit. "OH BUT THEY WERE ALL BEARDS!" they say. LOL. Bobby mooned over so many girls and moped so hard when they left that it's fairly obvious that his feelings were real. At least when Obsidian of Infinity Inc and Shatterstar of X-Force came out, all the signs that they were really into guys despite prior relationships with women were already there. This was not the case with Bobby.

I keep hoping that someone at Marvel would have the balls to re-retcon this as mindfuckery by Jean, but this would result in NPC screeching that would tear a hole between dimensions and bring forth demons.
I mean honestly, it'd be funny because the NPC screeching would be shut up by telling them that Bobby was gaslit. I mean, the comic run of Iceman was just a weird line of lgbt stereotypes and jokes. They fucking brought Daken into it and made him a creepy bisexual lmao.

Obsidian's someone I look forward to seeing when we get a JSA book launched again. I honestly loved the 2000s JSA run and the general theme of "legacy" that it had. I don't like how they're trying to retcon Alan Scott as a maybe repressed homosexual/bisexual given that it takes away from Obsidian since that's his son.

Anyways theories on who the Kindred is in the current Spider-man books? They're the beeg baaad manipulator of all the last 2 years or so in the spidey books and apparently were mentioned way back in 2006 according to Wikipedia. Given that we've gotten subtle-ish references to One More Day here and there recently, I have a theory.

So remember how Peter and MJ had a kid in the 90s that was assumed kidnapped/killed? The deal with Mephisto in One More Day specifically mentioned taking the love and marriage of peter and MJ as the cost, but what if said "love" also meant the soul of that child? What if this is some ersatz homicidal scenario by this offspring?
 

Cyber Bowling

kiwifarms.net
all he did was just turn Iceman into a stereotype. What's funny is that the whole thing started when young Jean Grey poked in kid iceman's head and may or may not have brainwashed him and then his adult counterpart.

But it's ok because it promotes a social justice talking point, right?

Now if this happened to someone that had a well established heterosexual life, like Peter Parker, or Tony Stark, or w/e, this'd get more controversy. However, since Iceman doesn't get a ton of character development, I don't think a ton of people cared. All I recall is that he had a period of time where he was hitched to some japanese woman in the comics through the 80s and early 90s iirc. I think her name was Opal Tanaka?
It was met with a fair deal of backlash by people who read comics, but that group was very much a minority compared to the crowd that has no interest in reading comics, but will immediately jump on the defense when they hear the word gay. Although credit where it is due, even among that crowd, there were some people who weren't happy with it because of how sloppy it was handled, especially with how Jean outed him. It did get forgotten about pretty quickly though due to not a lot of people caring about Iceman/the general lackluster handling of the X-Men as a whole making people even less interested.

It was especially dumb when you consider that X-men already has gay characters that were fairly well received at the time that I don't think they're doing anything with. Not that they're doing anything with Iceman now, but the whole thing was just confusing. If you're picking a smaller character anyway to try and tell gay stories about, why not use one of the existing one, versus taking a character who is well known for being straight and then just doing a very morally dubious handwave to suddenly make said character gay? Or just make a new character, it's not like Marvel is opposed to randomly launching a new title that ultimately fizzles out one or two issues in.

I would recommend looking at the Iceman comics if you can find the scans anywhere. I don't think it ever hits so bad it's good territory, but for me at least, it was so bad it's entertaining. I have little attachment to the X-men though, so that might have helped. It really reads like one of those story-generated AI programs swept through tumblr and 90's era standup about gay people and meshed together the results to make something that in the loosest terms can technically be considered a story.
 
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Czargon the Red

kiwifarms.net
It was met with a fair deal of backlash by people who read comics, but that group was very much a minority compared to the crowd that has no interest in reading comics, but will immediately jump on the defense when they hear the word gay. Although credit where it is due, even among that crowd, there were some people who weren't happy with it because of how sloppy it was handled, especially with how Jean outed him. It did get forgotten about pretty quickly though due to not a lot of people caring about Iceman/the general lackluster handling of the X-Men as a whole making people even less interested.

It was especially dumb when you consider that X-men already has gay characters that were fairly well received at the time that I don't think they're doing anything with. Not that they're doing anything with Iceman now, but the whole thing was just confusing. If you're picking a smaller character anyway to try and tell gay stories about, why not use one of the existing one, versus taking a character who is well known for being straight and then just doing a very morally dubious handwave to suddenly make said character gay? Or just make a new character, it's not like Marvel is opposed to randomly launching a new title that ultimately fizzles out one or two issues in.

I would recommend looking at the Iceman comics if you can find the scans anywhere. I don't think it ever hits so bad it's good territory, but for me at least, it was so bad it's entertaining. I have little attachment to the X-men though, so that might have helped. It really reads like one of those story-generated AI programs swept through tumblr and 90's era standup about gay people and meshed together the results to make something that in the loosest terms can technically be considered a story.
They could have easily just done a Hulkling+Wiccan book at the time they pushed Iceman.

Anyone actually care about Angela? You know the oddball Spawn character that Neil Gaiman sold to Marvel and now is a lesbian with ties to Thor's entourage? It's entertaining.

Yeah I read the Iceman comics and it was kinda just a disappointment. It wasn't even that entertaining because the problem with Iceman is that he doesn't have a cast of characters all for himself, or any lore outside of being a major x-man. At least the Summers/Grey family have their own clusterfuck of a thing, Emma Frost has her own lore, Wolverine obviously has his, and even Colossus has his extended stuff with his siblings. Hell if we gotta draw from the Chuck Austen X-Men run, even Angel and Nightcrawler have a ton of potential. Bobby's entire deal has kinda just been an acknowledgement that he's an omega-level mutant and one of the Original X-Men that even branched into the Champions/Defenders. Kind of a shame there's not much you can do with that unless you specifically wrote some bullshit from his era of the Champions/Defenders to come back and deal with him.

IDK man, I don't mind making a character gay if it's written right. But the Iceman comic was just not the way to go.

Speaking of which, anyone remember that Black Knight run that showed up after secret wars in 2015? They brought back the Black Knight just now for Empyre and handwaved that run away even though it did have potential. (Cut short because ???)
 
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