Star Trek -

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MembersSchoolPizza

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  • Picard dies, they apparently scanned his brain and transfered a copy into the golem but it's not just a synth body, it has no augmentation or super ability. This new Picard synth will only live for another 10 years. What was the point then?
Forgive me for defending anything about the show, but the trekkie inside me needs to point out that in the 24th century, he could easily have another 30+ years. McCoy lived to be at least ~140, for example.
 

Flexo

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They were pretty explicit that the purpose of the Directive is to prohibit interfering with the natural self-directed development of species and that it is unethical to interfere, and even that a Starship captain is supposed to sacrifice his own life or even the life of his entire crew rather than violate it. Even though the PD is usually mentioned in the context of saying fuck that and actually breaking it. Or at least with Kirk. Picard would at least pay lip service to it.

Some autist somewhere has compared all the captains based on whether they obeyed it or not I'm sure.
Yeah, I know that's how it was in the text.

My point is that it would have been a grand meta joke to have all this philosophy and quasi-worship of the Prime Directive in the 'future treks' only for the prequel trek to reveal that all along it was instituted for very practical, even self-serving reasons.
 

Miller

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Forgive me for defending anything about the show, but the trekkie inside me needs to point out that in the 24th century, he could easily have another 30+ years. McCoy lived to be at least ~140, for example.
They said something about wanting to give him the same lifespan that he could have if he didn't suffer from the irumodic syndrome. So instead of dying today, he will live for another X years.
That said, it's still a dumb thing to do.

the Shutterstock images put in her head fucked her up a bit
It funny and sad at the same time. They could have told their CG artists to work on a design or schematic of a synth for the visions, etc. instead they've wasted probably more than 30K on several long shots of a CG buttlefly that means nothing more than "look mom, I'm writing art".
 
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TaimuRadiu

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Out of all the nitpicking points here I'm surprised it doesn't seem like anyone has brought up that Sexy British Romulan said that there were tales of the destroyers since BEFORE his race came to Vulcan.

Uhhhhh.....
 
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MembersSchoolPizza

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Out of all the nitpicking points here I'm surprised it doesn't seem like anyone has brought up that Sexy British Romulan said that there were tales of the destroyers since BEFORE his race came to Vulcan.

Uhhhhh.....
There's some precedent for this in TOS, actually. See the episode "Return to Tomorrow".

SARGON: Because it is possible you are our descendants, Captain Kirk. Six thousand centuries ago, our vessels were colonising this galaxy, just as your own starships have now begun to explore that vastness. As you now leave your own seed on distant planets, so we left our seed behind us. Perhaps your own legends of an Adam and an Eve were two of our travellers.

MULHALL: Our beliefs and our studies indicate that life on our planet, Earth, evolved independently.

SPOCK: That would tend, however, to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory.


SARGON: In either case, I do not know. It was so long ago, and the records of our travels were lost in the cataclysm which we loosened upon ourselves.

If it was a deliberate callback, it was neat. If it was just the usual sloppy standards, well...
 

ZMOT

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I agree with both of you. In fact, I dare say a GOOD writer would find a way to incorporate both ideas together along with a few more that other people would probably come up with.

Heck if they had of the F word* to give, they could have done an entire season of Enterprise dedicated to creating the prime directive - where every week some new shit hits the fan until finally, in the season finale, they just go, "Look! Don't go bothering any planets that don't have warp, ok??"

*eFFort
the prime directive makes more sense when you consider the new planets you visits won't have any antibodies for whatever new shit you gonna bring in (even with transport filters, you can still shuttle down), and that's just the biological part. I mean the same thing happened on earth and that's just one blue ball. ironically voyager had some episodes dealing with the PD. I think early on they had one where they broke it and even when they "saved the day" it was still kind of a shit idea, or the one where voyager literally becomes a god. same for ENT with was basically homo sapiens vs neanderthals and what to do when one simply dies out (good fucking episode imo, although can't remember how it ended).

as @AnOminous said, it's basically you vs the needs of the many, once you open that pandora's box on a planetary society that's it, there's no going back there. and that's even before stuff like "giving napeleon nukes" or tech they aren't ready for. contacting them after they discover warp makes sense, since they inevitably gonna meet aliens at that point and to possibly prevent any fallout. imagine some bumfuck nasa shuttle starting shit with the klingons.

god, I fucking miss star trek making sense...

EDIT: can't remember if prime directive was already established by ENT, or if it was in part a vulcan procedure the federation simply adopted in some form.


EDIT 2 because the mods dislike doubleposts
This seems to be what Gene was thinking and heavily....often autistically...pushing for as made clear by his writing in early TNG where the above was often explicitly spelled out in sermons of varying levels of smugness

As for economics, on a micro scale its less communist and more "pretty much everything is free at a good quality so for 99.99% of the population money has no value", and on a macro scale there are regular references to interplanetary trade and commerce, not to mention smugglers and illicit goods which make me think that despite claims to the contrary, there is some kind of monetary system within the federation but almost nobody uses it or even knows about it because they are never in the position to buy/sell shit at a planetary level/illegal level.
the first one makes sense, maybe I'm too much of a naive idealist but like the UBI discussion people won't suddenly stop "living". sure, some will become couch potatoes but if you got literally everything, who cares if you do? so you're stuck in your cube watching ferengi soap operas, still doesn't mean everyone does. hence starfleet. and by that time it's already well established, so you won't just suddenly have money free money with no need to chase the green, but you literally grow up where you can do and become whatever you like (to an extend, if you wanna be a serial rapist that's probably gonna be difficult, but heck holodeck exist).

smugness just comes naturally when you think you're more evolved, plus it was mostly by federation staff, which if you go with the couchpotato idea are better for the simply fact they decided to be not a vegetable.

as for ecomony, iirc the stuff they trade with was mostly stuff you can't replicate since it has limited supply and can't just be generated out of thin air, and even if earth runs with a post-scarcity society you'd still need something to trade stuff with others that either don't have it or need stuff they can't just replicate themselves. basic supply & demand, the details itself would probably be as interesting and enjoyable as high finance...
 
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Flexo

Can i get "kill all humans" on random.txt?
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the prime directive makes more sense when you consider the new planets you visits won't have any antibodies for whatever new shit you gonna bring in (even with transport filters, you can still shuttle down), and that's just the biological part. I mean the same thing happened on earth and that's just one blue ball. ironically voyager had some episodes dealing with it. I think early on they had one where they broke it and even when they "saved the day" it was still kind of a shit idea,
Not sure which one you're thinking of here. It could be argued the two episodes Demon and Course Oblivion kind of fit that idea. Or the pilot episode.

or the one where voyager literally becomes a god.
Blink of an Eye.

same for ENT with was basically homo sapiens vs neanderthals and what to do when one simply dies out (good fucking episode imo, although can't remember how it ended).
...
EDIT: can't remember if prime directive was already established by ENT, or if it was in part a vulcan procedure the federation simply adopted in some form.
It wasn't. That episode in question you're thinking of was supposed to be the origin for the Prime Directive.

An episode in question where Dr. Phlox made the cure to save one of the species on that planet, and then withheld it from them because of "natural evolution." In other words - our heroes commit genocide. (Phlox won't even turn over the cure for the species to try and reverse engineer.)
 
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melty

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Not sure which one you're thinking of here. It could be argued the two episodes Demon and Course Oblivion kind of fit that idea. Or the pilot episode.



Blink of an Eye.


It wasn't. That episode in question you're thinking of was supposed to be the origin for the Prime Directive.

An episode in question where Dr. Phlox made the cure to save one of the species on that planet, and then withheld it from them because of "natural evolution." In other words - our heroes commit genocide. (Phlox won't even turn over the cure for the species to try and reverse engineer.)
I remember this now because of that "my people will one day create a doctrine, perhaps some kind of DIRECTIVE" line:
 
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Eh, they're practically communist in the Federation, aren't they? I figure the Prime Directive is just some post-modernist "All cultures are equal". If they found a planet where the men all kept the women in domestic servitude and wearing space - burkas, they'd probably just talk about the culture's values as being different.
Post (Food and Energy) Scarcity =/= Communism
 

MembersSchoolPizza

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An episode in question where Dr. Phlox made the cure to save one of the species on that planet, and then withheld it from them because of "natural evolution." In other words - our heroes commit genocide. (Phlox won't even turn over the cure for the species to try and reverse engineer.)
Worst episode of the entire series. Nearly the worst episode of the entire franchise, at least at the time.
 

UnKillFill

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An episode in question where Dr. Phlox made the cure to save one of the species on that planet, and then withheld it from them because of "natural evolution." In other words - our heroes commit genocide. (Phlox won't even turn over the cure for the species to try and reverse engineer.)
"Dear Doctor" still pisses me the fuck off because the logic they used was, "Who are we to choose which of the two species on this world dies?" when that wasn't ever the issue. Both species were living in relative harmony, and there was no sign that it even had to be a choice of one over the other. In practice, Phlox and Archer's action, or rather inaction, did in fact (presumably, I guess we don't ever really see the consequences) "choose which species died."

Ironically, I'm not even positive that the Prime Directive would have applied to the Valakians, had it existed at the time. They'd already encountered the Ferengi (several centuries before the Federation officially did, even) And at least one other warp capable species. They were aware of warp travel, even if they didn't have it for themselves yet. So if they had just bought a warp drive from the Ferengi and had it when Archer and co showed up (presumably using literally every single resource that their planet and people had), would they have lived?

That Phlox and Archer actually patted themselves on the back for literally condemning an entire species to death, simply because that species hadn't yet met an arbitrary level of technological advancement, pissed me off as much as it pissed Chuck off. Phlox is an evil fucking bastard, and Archer is at *very* least complicit in technical genocide.
Worst episode of the entire series. Nearly the worst episode of the entire franchise, at least at the time.
How sad is it that it probably isn't even in the top 20 worst Trek episodes of all time now? (Especially if you include Movies in that.)
 

ToroidalBoat

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My "headcanon" of Star Trek is the official canon as it was at the end of ENT. No JJ Abrams movies, no Discovery, and no Picard (which from descriptions I've heard seems dark and disturbing).

The whole franchise seems dark and disturbing for that matter now, since the JJ Abrams movies were out. Even ENT is optimistic.
 
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MembersSchoolPizza

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How sad is it that it probably isn't even in the top 20 worst Trek episodes of all time now? (Especially if you include Movies in that.)
I'm trying to think of worse episodes. Tuvix, of course. That damn "women can't be captains" episode from TOS, maybe. Move Along Home from DS9, although that one just from being insufferably dumb, not offensively stupid.

Movies? All but 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8.
 

UnKillFill

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I'm trying to think of worse episodes. Tuvix, of course. That damn "women can't be captains" episode from TOS, maybe. Move Along Home from DS9, although that one just from being insufferably dumb, not offensively stupid.

Movies? All but 2, 3, 4, 6 and 8.
Why are you only including Old Trek in that? (Unless you don't count anything else after the end of Voyager, and/or Enterprise as canon, and if so... right on.)

There are 29 STD episodes, 10 "STD Short Treks", and 10 STP episodes, not to mention 3 J.J. Abrams movies of varying quality. I'll admit I haven't seen the vast majority of those, but most of what I've seen of them are pretty shitty to me.
 

vaporubber

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This episode.... I couldn’t even with the corny-looking Acme Starfleet ships. What a fucking joke.

Also, what chinky fucking Chinese production company is up Kurzman’s butt so far that every major Starfleet vessel has a Chinese name. Hearing people butcher the Mandarin pronunciation is another Firefly throwback that i could do without.
 

Uranus Pink

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"Dear Doctor" still pisses me the fuck off because the logic they used was, "Who are we to choose which of the two species on this world dies?" when that wasn't ever the issue. Both species were living in relative harmony, and there was no sign that it even had to be a choice of one over the other. In practice, Phlox and Archer's action, or rather inaction, did in fact (presumably, I guess we don't ever really see the consequences) "choose which species died."

Ironically, I'm not even positive that the Prime Directive would have applied to the Valakians, had it existed at the time. They'd already encountered the Ferengi (several centuries before the Federation officially did, even) And at least one other warp capable species. They were aware of warp travel, even if they didn't have it for themselves yet. So if they had just bought a warp drive from the Ferengi and had it when Archer and co showed up (presumably using literally every single resource that their planet and people had), would they have lived?
The fact Phlox and Archer never considered the Menk were all nice and peaceful is because of the positive influence of the Valakians. Or the Menk wouldn't eventually figure out Phlox lied to their faces when he said he couldn't find a cure.

That Phlox and Archer actually patted themselves on the back for literally condemning an entire species to death, simply because that species hadn't yet met an arbitrary level of technological advancement, pissed me off as much as it pissed Chuck off. Phlox is an evil fucking bastard, and Archer is at *very* least complicit in technical genocide.
To be fair Picard had been pulling that shit throughout the entirety of TNG. The episode "Homeward" with Worf's brother Nikolai being the worse of amongst them as an almost entire species is wipe out and Picard been REEEEING cause Nikolai went against his orders and saved a handful of them.
 
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UnKillFill

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I'm trying to think of worse episodes... That damn "women can't be captains" episode from TOS, maybe...
Just saying, one of the STD Short Treks even proved that women shouldn't be captains. And it is now even head canon to me about why the Federation didn't let women be captains for a few hundred years... It was the one where Sterling Archer created tribbles, and a shitty woman Captain fucked everything up for everyone.
 

ZMOT

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Not sure which one you're thinking of here. It could be argued the two episodes Demon and Course Oblivion kind of fit that idea. Or the pilot episode.
time and again. not exactly prime directive related but had some "are you an alien?!" aspects in what would happen when found out.

An episode in question where Dr. Phlox made the cure to save one of the species on that planet, and then withheld it from them because of "natural evolution." In other words - our heroes commit genocide. (Phlox won't even turn over the cure for the species to try and reverse engineer.)
wasn't there also already a conflict or some kind of race war going on and even with the cure they'd just fuck over the other species? don't remember it being that black and white, but it's been ages since I've last seen it and might have forgotten or repressed some parts...

Just saying, one of the STD Short Treks even proved that women shouldn't be captains. And it is now even head canon to me about why the Federation didn't let women be captains for a few hundred years... It was the one where Sterling Archer created tribbles, and a shitty woman Captain fucked everything up for everyone.
to be fair that writing was so abysmal shit a male captain would look equally dumb if not more because "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy reee".

also star trek beyond was a pretty good trek movie, kinda ironic considering who was in charge.
 

UnKillFill

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time and again. not exactly prime directive related but had some "are you an alien?!" aspects in what would happen when found out.



wasn't there also already a conflict or some kind of race war going on and even with the cure they'd just fuck over the other species? don't remember it being that black and white, but it's been ages since I've last seen it and might have forgotten or repressed some parts...



to be fair that writing was so abysmal shit a male captain would look equally dumb if not more because "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy reee".

also star trek beyond was a pretty good trek movie, kinda ironic considering who was in charge.
Yes!
 
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