Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

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Doohan was 46 when he first appeared in Star Trek. Close enough in age. But he still looks and acts like he might be Pegg's (disappointed) Dad:

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I think this is a comment that can be applied broadly to almost all new media.

Back in the day, the characters actors portrayed are credible in their jobs. Nowadays, in general I wouldn't hire these people.
 

RomanesEuntDomus

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True & Honest Fan
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Modern writer 101:
Character is competent: He acts towards others like an asshole by correcting them.
Character is confident: He acts towards others like an asshole by rejecting what they say.
Character is quirky: He acts towards others like an asshole by pranking and shaming them.
Character is ... well. You get the idea.

Add in Whedonism and you're set for life in modern Hollywood.

What we end up with are characters that are absolutely horribly written and behave like douchy highschoolers instead of like seasoned experts and veterans.
 

Flexo

Don't blame me. I voted for HK-47.
True & Honest Fan
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Modern writer 101:
Character is competent: He acts towards others like an asshole by correcting them.
Character is confident: He acts towards others like an asshole by rejecting what they say.
Character is quirky: He acts towards others like an asshole by pranking and shaming them.
Character is ... well. You get the idea.

Add in Whedonism and you're set for life in modern Hollywood.

What we end up with are characters that are absolutely horribly written and behave like douchy highschoolers instead of like seasoned experts and veterans.
Because apparently no writer has any experience being an adult any more.
 

horni

ergo sum
kiwifarms.net
I've just watched Star Trek: Generations, the last Star Trek movie I haven't seen yet. It has been picked apart so many times and criticized by even its own screenwriters that I expected absolute borefest, but to my surprise... I kinda enjoyed it. There are many dumb ideas and Kirk's appearance and meeting with Picard are underwhelming, but still I wasn't bored and I've seen way worse Star Trek productions (as long as we still count nu-Trek as "Star Trek").
I think it was in "The Captains" where William Shatner described the scene where he's dying: "my character has seen so much in his life, so how is he going to react to his death? with a surprise: oh my". Cheesy, but kinda worked for me.
Also there is this one scene: when Picard is in the Nexus (some sort of heaven) and he can hug Rene, his nephew, who died in a fire. Would you like to meet again your loved ones who are not with you anymore? This got me a bit emotional to be honest, fortunately I have another episode of my beloved DS9 to calm down, I'm currently on season four and the next episode is "The Visi-" oh shit
 

JamesFargo

saying "Oh cool" as I put the gun in my mouth
kiwifarms.net
Back in the day, the characters actors portrayed are credible in their jobs. Nowadays, in general I wouldn't hire these people.
Because they're hired right off the catwalk?

Or they got the role because daddy called in a favor.

Picard is in the Nexus (some sort of heaven) and he can hug Rene, his nephew, who died in a fire. Would you like to meet again your loved ones who are not with you anymore?
Seems like a heavy topic which deserved a bit more room to breathe. I still object to Rene dying in a gruesome way. Maybe he died of smoke inhalation, I don't know, but surely they have advanced fire suppression and detection in the future?

A shuttle accident would be more logical, and have the added irony of killing his nephew in space, on his first-ever voyage. (I don't think Rene ever left Earth.) There is a good episode of B5 called "Grail" which explores some of this.

My other major problem with the script (other than the contrivances surrounding Soran) is how Kirk upstages Picard. Kirk fries eggs and announces he wants to get laid, while Picard sputters about duty? I get it, this is like a meeting of Time Lords where the eldest is appalled at the new version. Ha ha. But Picard keeps shrinking in his presence, to the point where he is a non-entity by the end. The obvious thing to do is let Picard use his brain and his eloquence to disarm Soran while Kirk does all the punching.

This is not unique to Generations, and you can definitely tell the writers on Star Trek are nostalgic for TOS. Those guys are depicted as manlier, cooler, and much more capable than the wet noodles of Picard/Janeway's time.
 
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White Devil

Space Hate Crimes
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My other major problem with the script (other than the contrivances surrounding Soran) is how Kirk upstages Picard. Kirk fries eggs and announces he wants to get laid, while Picard sputters about duty? I get it, this is like a meeting of Time Lords where the eldest is appalled at the new version. Ha ha. But Picard keeps shrinking in his presence, to the point where he is a non-entity by the end. The obvious thing to do is let Picard use his brain and his eloquence to disarm Soran while Kirk does all the punching.

This is not unique to Generations, and you can definitely tell the writers on Star Trek are nostalgic for TOS. Those guys are depicted as manlier, cooler, and much more capable than the wet noodles of Picard/Janeway's time.
You have to consider that Kirk is an absolute goddamn fucking legend in Picard's time. It's probably like standing in the presence of god and even Picard can have a little hero worship and be timid.

It's also just William Shatner, he's going to outchew anyone in a scene.
 

Drag-on Knight 91873

"Listen man, it's complicated."
kiwifarms.net
Seems like a heavy topic which deserved a bit more room to breathe. I still object to Rene dying in a gruesome way. Maybe he died of smoke inhalation, I don't know, but surely they have advanced fire suppression and detection in the future?

A shuttle accident would be more logical, and have the added irony of killing his nephew in space, on his first-ever voyage. (I don't think Rene ever left Earth.) There is a good episode of B5 called "Grail" which explores some of this.
In Family, Chateau Picard doesn't even have a replicator and Robert insisted that his wife know how to cook. It would stand to reason that any advanced technology like a sprinkler system wouldn't be in that rustic house. It also stands to reason that the fire was probably caused by Marie trying to cook something overnight or she forgot to turn off the stove or something.
 

Tasty Tatty

kiwifarms.net
Because apparently no writer has any experience being an adult any more.

"You've acted wrongly"
"No, I haven't, I have my reasons"
"See, your reasons aren't good enough. You failed in doing what you were asked"
"Oh, I see how. I apologize"
"Taken, I hope we're still friends after this"
"Of course, I was in the wrong"

It will always baffle me how fans of many different media act the complete opposite of the characters they claim to be fans of nowadays. Maybe this current generation is not familiar with TNG as mine, but those who do claim to have watched would never act IRL in the way we've seen these characters act in this scene.

I mentioned something similar in some of the HP threads: book five is about how their government was in denial about a situation and rather than accept it, they shunned those who wanted to take action. They did everything they could to smear Dumbledore and Harry and were ready to fire and censor anyone linked to them. There is even a scene when some classmate calls Harry crazy and he tells him "you shouldn't believe what media says, moron". Current HP fans now willingly believe everything the government and media tells them.

With Star Trek is the same. One of the things they miss about this show is how all ideas are welcome, even so called hateful ideas.



I've just watched Star Trek: Generations, the last Star Trek movie I haven't seen yet. It has been picked apart so many times and criticized by even its own screenwriters that I expected absolute borefest, but to my surprise... I kinda enjoyed it. There are many dumb ideas and Kirk's appearance and meeting with Picard are underwhelming, but still I wasn't bored and I've seen way worse Star Trek productions (as long as we still count nu-Trek as "Star Trek").
I think it was in "The Captains" where William Shatner described the scene where he's dying: "my character has seen so much in his life, so how is he going to react to his death? with a surprise: oh my". Cheesy, but kinda worked for me.
Also there is this one scene: when Picard is in the Nexus (some sort of heaven) and he can hug Rene, his nephew, who died in a fire. Would you like to meet again your loved ones who are not with you anymore? This got me a bit emotional to be honest, fortunately I have another episode of my beloved DS9 to calm down, I'm currently on season four and the next episode is "The Visi-" oh shit

I like Generations a lot, but the plot does feel like it belongs in a 40m episode rather than a movie. If you remove all the stuff about Data and other minor details, it's basically an episode of the show. You didn't even have to get Picard's family killed to make him feel like he's missed some things in life so he would feel attracted to the Nexus, tbh. If you think about it, it's just a more elaborate "The Inner Light".

IMO, if they really wanted to make a movie, I wish they had used Shatner more. He could have been more linked to the Nexus besides just being trapped there and being alive. Or just skip that one plot entirely. Make it a mystery about something Kirk did when he was Captain that has consequences in PIcard's time.
 
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RomanesEuntDomus

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I've watched Generations a couple of times and I never really understood, if Soran wants to enter the Nexus so badly, why the fuck does he need to blow up suns? Why doesn't he just grab a shuttle and head straight into it? It feels like instead of some weird thunder-thingy traveling through space, it should have been some sort of anomaly that pops up under certain conditions close to a supernova or something.

In Family, Chateau Picard doesn't even have a replicator and Robert insisted that his wife know how to cook. It would stand to reason that any advanced technology like a sprinkler system wouldn't be in that rustic house. It also stands to reason that the fire was probably caused by Marie trying to cook something overnight or she forgot to turn off the stove or something.
Eh, all joking aside, fire protection in the TNG era would be pretty fucking surreal. Currently, we use smoke detectors that use radioactive isotopes to detect smoke particles (so steam can't trigger them usually) and that is a pretty impressive design if you ask me. Imagine the kind of knicknacks in TNG's era: you'd most likely have a tiny specialized tricorder-like gadget, that will detect any kind of unintentional fire long before it even becomes enough of a problem to cause significant damage to the room that it starts in. And it would be very well capable of calling in help by a fire brigade with extinguishing equippement that we can only dream of. Like, they could very easily just beam people out of danger in a heartbeat. Hell, they might be able to simply beam a burning chunk of your house somewhere else to protect the rest of it.

It would be more believable that there was some sort of accident, like Picard's nephew drowning in a river or falling off a cliff...
 

JamesFargo

saying "Oh cool" as I put the gun in my mouth
kiwifarms.net
IMO, if they really wanted to make a movie, I wish they had used Shatner more. He could have been more linked to the Nexus besides just being trapped there and being alive. Or just skip that one plot entirely.
That's my feeling, too. It's weird how Kirk pops in and out of our reality in the span of ten minutes, like Rachel Garrett did.

At the time everyone expected Kirk and Picard would be on the bridge of their respective ships. But that wouldn't serve either show, either. These characters are too different and multifaceted to share top billing.

Kirk actually wrote a series of novels about Kirk getting revived with Borh tech (iirc). The Shatnerverse has mixed reviews.

So which is it to be? Another depressing end for a once-great Captain, like Pike (TOS: "The Menagerie") and Cochrane (TOS: "Metamorphosis")? Or a happy ending, like Scotty had in "Relics"? I guess it depends on whether you enjoy bleak, David Fincher-type stories.
 
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Tasty Tatty

kiwifarms.net
I've watched Generations a couple of times and I never really understood, if Soran wants to enter the Nexus so badly, why the fuck does he need to blow up suns? Why doesn't he just grab a shuttle and head straight into it? It feels like instead of some weird thunder-thingy traveling through space, it should have been some sort of anomaly that pops up under certain conditions close to a supernova or something.


Eh, all joking aside, fire protection in the TNG era would be pretty fucking surreal. Currently, we use smoke detectors that use radioactive isotopes to detect smoke particles (so steam can't trigger them usually) and that is a pretty impressive design if you ask me. Imagine the kind of knicknacks in TNG's era: you'd most likely have a tiny specialized tricorder-like gadget, that will detect any kind of unintentional fire long before it even becomes enough of a problem to cause significant damage to the room that it starts in. And it would be very well capable of calling in help by a fire brigade with extinguishing equippement that we can only dream of. Like, they could very easily just beam people out of danger in a heartbeat. Hell, they might be able to simply beam a burning chunk of your house somewhere else to protect the rest of it.

It would be more believable that there was some sort of accident, like Picard's nephew drowning in a river or falling off a cliff...

I think they explain that the fire is isolated in some sort of bubble during the "Irish episode" of TNG. Yeah, that's inside the Enterprise, but I doubt it's not so different for houses.

There is no way Picard's brother would miss having all sort of protections for his family, old-fashioned man or not. It's really a dumb reason to make Picard feel emotional. Just make Rene get married and make JL realise how much he's missed in life and how he's never going to have that ever, it'd make the same effect on him.
 
In Family, Chateau Picard doesn't even have a replicator and Robert insisted that his wife know how to cook. It would stand to reason that any advanced technology like a sprinkler system wouldn't be in that rustic house. It also stands to reason that the fire was probably caused by Marie trying to cook something overnight or she forgot to turn off the stove or something.
Sprinkler systems would be like 500 years old by this point though. And rustic or not, I assume Earth still has building codes to prevent children from burning to death and other Victorian household accidents.
 

Drag-on Knight 91873

"Listen man, it's complicated."
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Sprinkler systems would be like 500 years old by this point though. And rustic or not, I assume Earth still has building codes to prevent children from burning to death and other Victorian household accidents.
Didn't Robert make people read by candlelight (which actually is bad for eyes)? If he's not big on electricity, he's not big on other forms of technology.
 

RomanesEuntDomus

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True & Honest Fan
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I could totally see some automated device that detects fire and then just pops a small force field around it to starve off oxygen in any kind of building in TNG.

There's a very old monestary on a mountaintop in Japan, it was founded 1000 years ago and many buildings burned down several times during that time. Since the whole thing is considered a cultural heritage of immeasurably value, new and utterly ludicrous fire-protection has been added. Like, there's vents in the ground between buildings that shoot up giant walls of water to prevent fire from spreading from one house to the other. It's not impossible that a building actually burns down, but where it oftentimes consumed several buildings in the past centuries, it will now be localized to a single building (and the giant fountains of water will also help putting it out).

That's what a first world nation does to protect an important asset nowadays, I can't imagine the Federation wouldn't have some small handy-dandy device to protect against household fires that is either capable of detecting it and warning inhabitants and fire brigades alike, if it's not outright capable of putting out smaller fires on its own.

Didn't Robert make people read by candlelight (which actually is bad for eyes)? If he's not big on electricity, he's not big on other forms of technology.
If he was a total nutjob that would insist on being treated with blood letting and leeching to heal headaches, who refuses to wear glasses cause they are too high-tech or something, I could see your point. Someone wanting to have a somewhat traditional life is one thing, but skimping out on fire protection for no reason is another.
If he's not "big on electricity" that doesn't mean he doesn't prevent his house from becoming a death trap and given the technology in TNG, any victim in a household fire comes across as contrived tbh. As I said, a fire detection system could most likely be palm-sized, scan the entire building and detect fires down to a flame-size of a candle or match - let alone the capability to check the air for poisonous fumes or deadly gases.
 
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Didn't Robert make people read by candlelight (which actually is bad for eyes)? If he's not big on electricity, he's not big on other forms of technology.
I don't remember, but sprinklers predate electrification (edit: may be contemporaneous depending on which dates you use). They're just tubes of water with glass fuses that melt at a predetermined temperature. They don't take the human element out of work or whatever the Luddite argument against technology is.
 

Uranus Pink

kiwifarms.net
Never underestimate the lunacy, fanaticism and useful idiotism of Luddites or how easy they're co-opted by the powers-that-be to control the unruly peasants. Especially the environmental and Malthusian Luddites who have little to no FTG if a significant portion of the human population dies off in order to return their "idyllic" tech free world.
 

Tasty Tatty

kiwifarms.net
Didn't Robert make people read by candlelight (which actually is bad for eyes)? If he's not big on electricity, he's not big on other forms of technology.
There is definitely electricity in that house. Or whatever is that they use in his time.

IMG_20210502_232549.pngIMG_20210502_232639.png

Other images show some sort of technology around his property, so I guess -if they're his- he's fine with technology that helps his craft.

Which makes the whole fire thing just more ridiculous.

The only reason I can think of for them to make them die like they did, was to make the "time is the fire that burn us" line meaningful to Picard. Kill your darlings, guys.
 

JamesFargo

saying "Oh cool" as I put the gun in my mouth
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The only reason I can think of for them to make them die like they did, was to make the "time is the fire that burn us" line
You can easily tell. Soran's delivery is so over the top, and Picard is (literally) struck dumb by the power of wordplay.

It honestly would have made more sense if Soran had hypnotic powers. Then you have that line about Soran belonging to the same race as Guinan. This is also needless, because the Nexus could have picked them up individually from different planets. I don't know, guys. I'm looking at this film from every angle, and it's moldy dick cheese.
 
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Tasty Tatty

kiwifarms.net
You can easily tell. Soran's delivery is so over the top, and Picard is (literally) struck dumb by the power of wordplay.


I actually like the line, but in context, it was kept to make an impression on Picard just before we find out about his family's death. And I liked the line even before I even noticed this, so there is really no need for the plot to kill them by fire or in any way.
 
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