Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Flexo]

Voyager's problem isn't neccesarily that it abandoned its gimmick. Its that it never acquired another, better one to replace it, and also never had strong enough writing to make the show succeed in spite of that. Star Trek replicator technology is so fucking broken and overpowered that yeah, I'm fine with Voyager not being a post-apocalyptic scrap heap always running out of ammo and barely held together by duct tape and hope. My problem is the shallow characters, cliched storylines, and shitty writing. When you actually give Voyager a good plot to work with it totally succeeds regardless of whether or not its living up to the potential of its premise, it doesn't need to be serialized either. Fixing the show would really have been as simple as doing that honestly.

Not sure you disagree when you circle back around to the point in your reasoning to the point I was making. To requote the Ron Moore interview we used to earlier in the thread:

LCARS: Ron D. Moore Q & A

When you don’t give a shit, you’re telling the audience: don’t bother. Don’t bother to really learn this stuff, because it’s not going to matter next week, anything that happened this week.​

 

[L50LasPak]

Not sure you disagree when you circle back around to the point in your reasoning to the point I was making. To requote the Ron Moore interview we used to earlier in the thread:

I suppose in retrospect we might have a differing idea of what the potential for Voyager actually was. In short, it doesn't bother me that Voyager didn't live up to its premise of being a lone ship outgunned and stranded in the Delta Quadrant with no easy way to pick up new supplies. Which seems to be the dealbreaker to some people, as if that's the only reason Voyager isn't any good. I think the good episodes show that the series could still rise to success without having to live up to its premise, just so long as it told a good story while doing so.

Yeah in that case it didn't live up to its potential either, but technically every show has to potential to make it to that level of success, so I dunno if its worth splitting hairs on it like that.

 

[Flexo]

I suppose in retrospect we might have a differing idea of what the potential for Voyager actually was. In short, it doesn't bother me that Voyager didn't live up to its premise of being a lone ship outgunned and stranded in the Delta Quadrant with no easy way to pick up new supplies. Which seems to be the dealbreaker to some people, as if that's the only reason Voyager isn't any good. I think the good episodes show that the series could still rise to success without having to live up to its premise, just so long as it told a good story while doing so.

Yeah in that case it didn't live up to its potential either, but technically every show has to potential to make it to that level of success, so I dunno if its worth splitting hairs on it like that.

I don't think you're following...

Imagine if on DS9 we saw Odo shape-shifting in the first episode - and then NEVER AGAIN in the entire series. In fact it's not even mentioned that he's a shapeshifter for 90% of the episodes after that.

Saying "gee I wish they had used the potential of Odo's shape-shifting" doesn't mean every episode needed to be about shapeshifter tricks or whatever. It just means DS9 did... well what we got. It came up when it mattered, there were arcs and examinations of the character's nature etc.

You could put Voyager back in the alpha quadrant and like... maybe half of it's episodes would still work just fine.

 

[RumblyTumbly]

I don't think you're following...

Imagine if on DS9 we saw Odo shape-shifting in the first episode - and then NEVER AGAIN in the entire series. In fact it's not even mentioned that he's a shapeshifter for 90% of the episodes after that.

Saying "gee I wish they had used the potential of Odo's shape-shifting" doesn't mean every episode needed to be about shapeshifter tricks or whatever. It just means DS9 did... well what we got. It came up when it mattered, there were arcs and examinations of the character's nature etc.

You could put Voyager back in the alpha quadrant and like... maybe half of it's episodes would still work just fine.

Having just watched Voyager, you make a good point.

Another part of that is the whole "Starfleet + Maquis working together to get home" aspect of the show.

After a while, they went so long without mentioning the different factions that on the rare occasion when they did bring it up, I was like "Oh yeah, that was a thing"

 

[JamesFargo]

Instead we have something that is quite forgettable if it wasn't for Jeri Ryan's rockin' body.

My milkshake brings all the Borgs to the yard.

The producers went into Enterprise thinking it would be a cheaper show to film than the rest of Star Trek

Fuck me. Did they actually say that?

Additionally you would need to hire really good talent to work on the show.

One of the big selling points was Braga was hiring all of these untested writers from all over the world. Similar to the TNG script submission policy, which Braga owes his career to.

Then he sacked everybody and rewrote the first season because it was easier to crank out conventional scripts. After that, he wouldn't hear any unsolicited pitches. It sounds like a TV series dipped in dementia. (Dementia implies you had some starting knowledge to lose, though.)

it was the remake of Battlestar Galactica. And we all know how that ended.

In fairness, there was no plausible way for the Colonials to be direct ancestors of modern man. You could tell at a certain point that Ron and Dave just threw up their hands. IIRC the last shot of the 'past' was a fully-fueled Raptor sitting right on Adama's porch.

 

[Flexo]

Having just watched Voyager, you make a good point.

Another part of that is the whole "Starfleet + Maquis working together to get home" aspect of the show.

After a while, they went so long without mentioning the different factions that on the rare occasion when they did bring it up, I was like "Oh yeah, that was a thing"

Yeah I mean... it wouldn't even have to be conflicts. Just imagine a scene where Janeway is like "I can't do __ it's against the starfleet regulations. " Then Chakotay is like, "gotcha. Give me ten minutes."

Then he comes back with the part Janeway needs and some mysteriously bloody knuckles...

Or one idea I heard once of Janeway creating like a new Federation in the Delta quadrant. What would that be like? What might it entail to have a crude copy aiming to a higher ideal?

I mean there's a good reason that most of the best, fan favorite episodes are ones that have the show using its premise.

 

[L50LasPak]

I don't think you're following...

Imagine if on DS9 we saw Odo shape-shifting in the first episode - and then NEVER AGAIN in the entire series. In fact it's not even mentioned that he's a shapeshifter for 90% of the episodes after that.

Saying "gee I wish they had used the potential of Odo's shape-shifting" doesn't mean every episode needed to be about shapeshifter tricks or whatever. It just means DS9 did... well what we got. It came up when it mattered, there were arcs and examinations of the character's nature etc.

You could put Voyager back in the alpha quadrant and like... maybe half of it's episodes would still work just fine.

I suppose I'll lay my cards out on the table and say that the way BSG turned out convinced me that if they had actually legit tried to live up to the show's premise, they would have fucked it up and the show would be an even bigger shitfest than it was, no doubt with one of the lamest endings ever televised on par with LOST.

So my problem with Voyager isn't that they abandoned most of the stuff that they set up at the beginning and/or what a tragedy that was, its that the series never rose above mediocrity even after they realized that they had bitten off more than they could chew.

 

[Flexo]

I suppose I'll lay my cards out on the table and say that the way BSG turned out convinced me that if they had actually legit tried to live up to the show's premise, they would have fucked it up and the show would be an even bigger shitfest than it was, no doubt with one of the lamest endings ever televised on par with LOST.

So my problem with Voyager isn't that they abandoned most of the stuff that they set up at the beginning and/or what a tragedy that was, its that the series never rose above mediocrity even after they realized that they had bitten off more than they could chew.

Yeah, we agree about the mediocrity- of which another term is "not living up to potential." It goes beyond the premise to include the actors for example.

I mean Ronald D Moore didn't even go to Voyager until 1999, around s5-6. Don't get too hung up on BSG autism. I mean if Voyager had lived up to its premise, how would that have fucked the ending? The ending was set in stone from the start BY the premise: get back home. (Heck the actual ending wasn't that great.)

 

[JamesFargo]

Ronald D Moore didn't even go to Voyager until 1999, around s5-6.

CAPTAIN'S LOG: I've re-instated Chakotay and set course for home. Let's pretend this "Equinox" two-parter never happened and go back to doing high-concept episodes.

 

[L50LasPak]

I mean if Voyager had lived up to its premise, how would that have fucked the ending? The ending was set in stone from the start BY the premise: get back home. (Heck the actual ending wasn't that great.)

Not exactly that I think going through with the ending was impossible based on the premise, and more that I lack faith that they could have pulled it off properly. It sounds simple; get back home, but I'd not be surprised at all if eight seasons into the show there was an insane religious arc where Seven of Nine was having visions of a red angel and two seasons of the show took place 200 years in the future.

Yeah, I know it wouldn't be precisely that bad, but there's no shortage of ways where the plot could have spiraled off the rails if they started trying to market the show as more serious and edgy. There's not even a straightforward way for them to actually get home that the show could build towards, so anything they could come up with would be about as bullshit as the actual ending we got. I just see it falling victim to the same mystery box bullshit that we've seen with most modern TV shows. Its not a new problem; the X-Files also suffered from it.

 

[XYZpdq]

For me what's really frustrating about Voyager is that you could do so much lazy writing with the constrictions set up in the premise, but they manage to be lazy-er.
You can take basically any Alien/Space Thingy Of The Week episode from TNG, bald face rip off the core premise, and just by adding in "there's limited resources, no Feddies getting their back, and half the crew doesn't trust the other half" you can easily make a different second and third act.

 

[JamesFargo]

For me what's really frustrating about Voyager is that you could do so much lazy writing with the constrictions set up in the premise, but they manage to be lazy-er.

Great write-up by WrestleCrap. VOY earned an induction for the WWE episode:

To prepare for this recap, I (along with my family) watched a few ''Voyager'' episodes from different seasons. And even in the early season one episodes, there seemed to already be a pattern in place in terms of plot. Namely: there's some problem that threatens the ship at the beginning of the episode. The problem may be external, or something caused by the crew of Voyager itself. A healthy amount of time is spent with various permutations of technobabble phrases, until eventually the right combination is spoken.

 

[Tookie]

Or one idea I heard once of Janeway creating like a new Federation in the Delta quadrant. What would that be like? What might it entail to have a crude copy aiming to a higher ideal?

I always thought that could have worked, you could do a version of the Andromeda/STD plotline without destroying the Federation in the process. You could still use the Borg as the main villain and then have them use the transwarp conduits or something to merge into the Alpha Quadrant Federation as the finale. Have it echo "Caretaker" where Janeway & the crew decide to sacrifice going home in favor of helping local races resist assimilation and slowly form a Delta Quadrant Federation.

 

[Flexo]

Not exactly that I think going through with the ending was impossible based on the premise, and more that I lack faith that they could have pulled it off properly. It sounds simple; get back home, but I'd not be surprised at all if eight seasons into the show there was an insane religious arc where Seven of Nine was having visions of a red angel and two seasons of the show took place 200 years in the future.

Wait, that wasn't the finale? (lol f Endgame)

Yeah, I know it wouldn't be precisely that bad, but there's no shortage of ways where the plot could have spiraled off the rails if they started trying to market the show as more serious and edgy. There's not even a straightforward way for them to actually get home that the show could build towards, so anything they could come up with would be about as bullshit as the actual ending we got. I just see it falling victim to the same mystery box bullshit that we've seen with most modern TV shows. Its not a new problem; the X-Files also suffered from it.

It was either on here or the Star Wars thread but as I have tried to explain repeatedly: Serious != edgy or humorless. Even comedies - well done ones - take the story and the delivery of jokes seriously in their execution. For a comparison, Lower Decks vs GalaxyQuest. DS9 was even more serious than TNG but they still had time for great comedy moments and episodes. The principle is that they always took the characters, setting, etc seriously - as like real things and people.

Voyager having the magic reset button every episode proved the series was unserious as assuredly as it would have making Neelix the captain. Remember the episode where Ensign Kim slept with an alien and LITERALLY got an STD that lit him up like a christmas tree? Fair Haven? You really want to defend some of this stuff?

Conversely, having the show take its premise serious doesn't mean you exclude comedy. You could have an episode end with Voyager limping away from a conflict, and then follow it up with the next episode being Janeway inflicting Tuvok and Neelix as a double act upon the space equivalent of a used-car-salesman to get the parts they need for repair. A comedy episode, that works as comedy because the plot is taking the premise and set up seriously.

Voyager had a fresh, original set up with opened up the possibility of stories that Star Trek had never explored before as well as an opportunity to explore new possibilities in storytelling. It also had a decently talented cast that could pull off great scenes. The behind the scenes crew were also experienced by now and technology advanced to the point they could pull off special effects for their stories at a fair price.

All that, and even at its best the show can barely get above mediocre most of the time.

(And XFiles was NEVER planned to have any kind of myth arc or ongoing storyline. That was its problem.)

 

[los pepes]

Wait, that wasn't the finale? (lol f Endgame)

It was either on here or the Star Wars thread but as I have tried to explain repeatedly: Serious != edgy or humorless. Even comedies - well done ones - take the story and the delivery of jokes seriously in their execution. For a comparison, Lower Decks vs GalaxyQuest. DS9 was even more serious than TNG but they still had time for great comedy moments and episodes. The principle is that they always took the characters, setting, etc seriously - as like real things and people.

Voyager having the magic reset button every episode proved the series was unserious as assuredly as it would have making Neelix the captain. Remember the episode where Ensign Kim slept with an alien and LITERALLY got an STD that lit him up like a christmas tree? Fair Haven? You really want to defend some of this stuff?

Conversely, having the show take its premise serious doesn't mean you exclude comedy. You could have an episode end with Voyager limping away from a conflict, and then follow it up with the next episode being Janeway inflicting Tuvok and Neelix as a double act upon the space equivalent of a used-car-salesman to get the parts they need for repair. A comedy episode, that works as comedy because the plot is taking the premise and set up seriously.

Voyager had a fresh, original set up with opened up the possibility of stories that Star Trek had never explored before as well as an opportunity to explore new possibilities in storytelling. It also had a decently talented cast that could pull off great scenes. The behind the scenes crew were also experienced by now and technology advanced to the point they could pull off special effects for their stories at a fair price.

All that, and even at its best the show can barely get above mediocre most of the time.

(And XFiles was NEVER planned to have any kind of myth arc or ongoing storyline. That was its problem.)

Which is exactly how DS9 did it and why worked out so well. You'd have nog losing his leg in battle and suffering from severe depression and agoraphobia, then a few episodes later everybody enjoying a baseball game against vulcan assholes at quark's. You can get dark as hell as long as it's sincere, earned, services the characters growth, and is not just cynically done because you can't think of anything else to put on screen besides somebody getting their eyeball ripped out. And as long as you keep an overall glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel to keep the audience feeling like no matter how bad things are now, they'll get better eventually. You can have Miles contemplating eating a phaser type episode and follow it up with a ferengi episode a short while later to let folks unwind. You can't have him murder his family just to show how edgy you are. Voyager could have done more of the former without degenerating into the latter.

 

[Flexo]

Which is exactly how DS9 did it and why worked out so well. You'd have nog losing his leg in battle and suffering from severe depression and agoraphobia, then a few episodes later everybody enjoying a baseball game against vulcan assholes at quark's. You can get dark as hell as long as it's sincere, earned, services the characters growth, and is not just cynically done because you can't think of anything else to put on screen besides somebody getting their eyeball ripped out. And as long as you keep an overall glimmer of hope at the end of the tunnel to keep the audience feeling like no matter how bad things are now, they'll get better eventually. You can have Miles contemplating eating a phaser type episode and follow it up with a ferengi episode a short while later to let folks unwind. You can't have him murder his family just to show how edgy you are. Voyager could have done more of the former without degenerating into the latter.

Bingo. Preach it, brother.

Actually looking at some dates, I wonder if Ron Moore did BSG the way he did BECAUSE of his frustration with Voyager. Makes you wonder if they had let him stay on, and improved the show's quality, if maybe we wouldn't have done BSG or if we would have gotten a very different show.

 

[JamesFargo]

Makes you wonder if they had let him stay on, and improved the show's quality, if maybe we wouldn't have done BSG or if we would have gotten a very different show.

It's an itch he needed to scratch. Chakotay and Janeway never pulled the trigger on their love affair, so let's do it over with Adama and Roslin.

The character work on BSG was always a cut above. It's the central arc which falls short.

 

[Judge Holden]

Mister Neelix

Would you care to explain this subspace message.

 

[starborn427614]

Mister Neelix
View attachment 2295948

Would you care to explain this subspace message.
View attachment 2295949

All of this and yet it's the misspelling of duel that shocks me the most. The internet has ruined me.

 

[Blamo]

Actually, what do you guys think about the TNG movies?

I was never a fan of them, for some reason the TOS movies has worked way better for me. And I enjoyed TNG, the show.