Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier

[Jesus Goldstein]

Insurrection-Make the Baku the bad guys, because they already were. (And it goes without saying, don't make the TNG crew support them just because Picard wanted to get his geriatric dick wet from some centuries old hippie bitch.) That doesn't even invalidate the central conflict of the movie. The Federation wants the fountain of youth, because they're in the middle of the Dominion war, and could use the medical help... and the Baku are assholes who perched there and they don't want to share. Hell, have the Baku ally with the Dominion. (Because the immortal Founders don't even need a fountain of youth to begin with.)

Michael Piller’s Fade In is an interesting behind the scenes view of the development of Insurrection. He basically started with a couple of ideas and scenes in mind (Picard vs. the Federation, aging and the fountain of youth) and tried to construct a script around them. I don’t think there was ever a good idea to begin with, but it’s interesting to see how the script developed and had to be changed as he played his ideas off of Berman and ran up against budget issues and input from Stewart.

I hated the idea of the Borg Queen as soon as I heard about it. It got even worse when she turned out to be some kind of horny spinster. The chilling thing about the Borg was exactly what Q offered up: you can't outfight them, you can't outrun them, you can't negotiate with them. They're one vast, faceless, gestalt being made of zombie cyborgs, driven and calculating, but also emotionless and kind of mindless. Very instinctual, like a swarm of army ants.
Then in one fell swoop they were given a face, that of a moustache-twirling Ayesha ripoff subject to flattery and bamboozlement, and made into her slaves. I don't know about anyone else, but for me it killed the concept and the threat of the Borg.

I can’t remember where, but I thought I read (maybe in Piller’s book) that the script writers introduced the Borg Queen because they felt they needed a villain that the cast could interact with and trade lines with.

 

[kaien]

I can’t remember where, but I thought I read (maybe in Piller’s book) that the script writers introduced the Borg Queen because they felt they needed a villain that the cast could interact with and trade lines with.

Yeah, that was the problem they solved by Borging Picard in Best of Both Worlds. But you can only pull off that particular stunt once.

 

[Standardized Profile]

I didn't have a problem with the Borg Queen in First Contact. It's the homunculus of their collective consciousness, an emergent property of the group-mind that gives it executive functionality so it isn't a schizophrenic mess all the time. It appeared symbolically in Picard-Locutus's mind as a queen, then physically instantiated itself using that same symbol, but only when the Borg had set up shop on Picard's new ship. The Queen exists because something like it must exist within the Borg psyche, and because the Borg were trying to get their hooks back in Picard.

The Queen became a problem when the writers decided she was an independent actor within and distinct from the Collective. She should never have been in Voyager, except perhaps as a lingering influence in Seven's mind. Instead, she's reduced to an ineffective commander watching events on her TV screen and giving orders to the drones, like any cheap villain. "You think in such three-dimensional terms. How small you've become."

 

[JamesFargo]

Change one thing about each TNG movie to make them better.

Those movies are fundamentally broken.

Generations was greenlit because they needed to demolish the sets for Voyager. Insurrection may as well not exist. They killed off Data in Nemesis, robbing him of his happy ending in TNG. (Then again, Picard is predicated on the belief that "Measure of the Man" didn't happen.)

I hated the idea of the Borg Queen as soon as I heard about it. It got even worse when she turned out to be some kind of horny spinster.

Alice Krige owes her career to sidelining better villains. "Christabella'" in Silent Hill; it's the same thing there.

 

[raider of the lost wifi]

Those movies are fundamentally broken.

They needed to demolish the sets for Voyager, so Generations was announced. Insurrection may as well not exist. They killed off Data in Nemesis, robbing him of his happy ending in TNG. (Then again, Picard is predicated on the belief that "Measure of the Man" didn't happen.)

They also cut data's brother out of Nemesis. He was originally intended to have replaced him.

 

[BScCollateral]

Incidentally, can we take a moment to laugh at the idea of impoverished settlers who live in a warzone and adamantly refuse to emigrate to a post-scarcity paradise that welcomes them with open arms? They used this idea a lot so I guess it used to be considered insightful social commentary somehow.

It would make a lot more sense if the Federation actually was a realistic post-scarcity utopia: a population made almost entirely of people masturbating in holodecks.

 

[JamesFargo]

made almost entirely of people masturbating in holodecks.

Who cleans up the splooge afterward? Is that the EMH Mk. 1's job, too?

 

[L50LasPak]

Actually, what do you guys think about the TNG movies?

I was never a fan of them, for some reason the TOS movies has worked way better for me. And I enjoyed TNG, the show.

I suppose I am and remain the thread's designated Generations simp, if only because Kirk's death actually works for me and I think Shatner handled it well. I also kind of like the idea that Kirk after such a long career is kind of bitter about how his entire life was devoted to Starfleet and was wondering if it was worth it. Sure, we all love the best moments of TOS and the movies, but Kirk the character could be thinking "Fuckin aye, I got hijacked by space hippies and mind controlled and had to save Spock's ass like five times all for this shit?" Its fitting though when it only takes him a minute or two to decide that shallow paradise isn't worth and go back to make a difference one last time. The TNG part of the movie is utterly forgettable though.

First Contact is the best "movie" movie out of the three. The movie feels a lot like an episode of Voyager though, aside from some of the character material being specifically written to fit with Picard and Data. Beyond that it has a servicable plot and structure that makes sense even if the characters are all wrong, and for once Picard acting like a crazy meathead kind of fits given his history with the Borg. Zefram Cochrane is a terrible cliche character in almost every way, but James Cromwell is a class act and basically saves him with that performance. If they'd cast a shitter actor to be Cochrane I would bet you actual money the movie would have fallen apart. It works best of you kind of don't think of it as a Star Trek movie.

As it is the movie features what I think is the dumbest Trek movie moment outside of JJTrek, which is the scene where Steppenwolf 's Magic Carpet Ride starts blaring.

Insurrection I honestly have nothing good to say about to this day. Its astonishingly boring, I hate everything about it, and I have to wonder if it wasn't partially written by the tumors Piller was growing in his head that ultimately killed him. Because I have no idea who looked at it and thought it was a good idea.

Nemesis is a trashy grimderp action flick. Its worst sin is that it is utterly forgettable, even though it tries to act like its anything but. I do find it less offensive than Insurrection, but that's really not saying much.

 

[JamesFargo]

the movie features what I think is the dumbest Trek movie moment outside of JJTrek

I was with you, until that.

All of humanity's quirks and perversions are distilled into one man. Just think, "Shooby Dooby" is preserved in a Vulcan library somewhere.

 

[L50LasPak]

I was with you, until that.

All of humanity's quirks and perversions are distilled into one man. Just think, "Shooby Dooby" is preserved in a Vulcan library somewhere.

Shooby Dooby does make up for it, but Magic Carpet Ride is like, peak white trash cringe. Which may have been the point, I'll concede, but if so it works a little too well.

 

[kaien]

As it is the movie features what I think is the dumbest Trek movie moment outside of JJTrek, which is the scene where Steppenwolf 's Magic Carpet Ride starts blaring.

See, I love that bit, but then I have a pretty high cheese tolerance. For me it worked in the context of the crew all discovering that the legendary scientist pioneer was really just a crazy redneck hot-rodder building the spaceship equivalent of the General Lee under a shade tree.

 

[JamesFargo]

really just a crazy redneck hot-rodder building the spaceship equivalent of the General Lee under a shade tree.

Wonder if Braga had that in mind when he made Trip a shrimp boat mechanic.

Strained credulity a bit too far.

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

I can’t remember where, but I thought I read (maybe in Piller’s book) that the script writers introduced the Borg Queen because they felt they needed a villain that the cast could interact with and trade lines with.

In other words, another banal action-flick sop to the mouth-breathers in the audience, so they'll keep quiet instead of shouting out "where's the 'sploshuns? Where's Spawck?" In the theater.

Yeah, that was the problem they solved by Borging Picard in Best of Both Worlds. But you can only pull off that particular stunt once.

You could argue that Locutus set a kind of precedent to introduce the Borg Queen. A kind of locus locus, locutus? Hmm for the Borg mind to, uh, focus into, when attempting to interact with those weirdo 'individuals' on their own level. Similar to Seven's introduction. But it sits better with me to think of it as a temporary thing, the tip of an extruded tendril, like the water face in The Abyss, rather than the spider at the centre of the web. In my mind, if the Borg didn't have the idea to use Picard's face to wrongfoot and demoralize their Federation opponent, they'd have ripped the knowledge from his head and had a brand new drone to sluice out the biowaste reclamation pods.

I might have to think long and hard before I can accept that the Borg Queen exists in her portrayed capacity because Picard dreamt her.

Who cleans up the splooge afterward? Is that the EMH Mk. 1's job, too?

I believe it was Roms.

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

The Borg Queen has to be a female drone because the boobs house extra processors.

 

[Flexo]

Actually, what do you guys think about the TNG movies?

I was never a fan of them, for some reason the TOS movies has worked way better for me. And I enjoyed TNG, the show.

Guilty pleasures for me. I was raised on TNG and the movies were the first Trek movies I got to see in theaters. Really love First Contact. Can't hate Generations because it was the first. Insurrection... I usually fall asleep before judging it.

Insurrection is the more competent script, but the B'aku are really terrible. They're not a pre-warp civilization despite wanting to live in Sonoma Valley so they can defend themselves from the Son'a if they so choose and presumably did when they exiled them from the planet in the first place. But in the movie, they rely on Picard, Data, Worf, Troi, and Crusher to defend the entire village. When you're letting middle-aged women fight your battles for you, you are not superior in any way. If anything, the B'aku are addicts to the fountain of youth considering the Son'a aged to near death, but this addiction isn't portrayed as a negative thing. We're actually supposed to root for the pacifists that rely on adolescent-brained Starfleet officers for protection!

It does make you wonder how they were banished FROM A PLANET.

"We're banishing you!"
"Ok."
>Proceed to fly to the other side of the sphere and set up a base there.

Incidentally, can we take a moment to laugh at the idea of impoverished settlers who live in a warzone and adamantly refuse to emigrate to a post-scarcity paradise that welcomes them with open arms? They used this idea a lot so I guess it used to be considered insightful social commentary somehow.

I could make a dank Israel/Palestine joke here but it might derail the thread...

Here's a fun game we can all play...

Change one thing about each TNG movie to make them better. I'll start:

Generations- The obvious answer is, "Don't kill Kirk, and specifically don't make him die like a bitch." But I'll even go a step further...
Don't even make this stupid movie in the first place. (That's a cheat, sorry. But I already gave the non cheat answer...)

I would have actually made it like... Generations. Set up a story where each enterprise has to deal with some kind of mystery or anomaly over the years that Picard & company have to finish off. Kirk has a brief encounter in the A, then Cameron (who was on his way to pick up Ferris) comes across it in the B, Captain Garrett (before Kitomer) deals with it in the C, then top it all off with the D. Maybe the ship even has to blow up to stop it so we can get the next one going.

First Contact- Put Sisko on the Defiant with Worf. As much as I love DS9, Sisko NEVER got any comeuppance against the Borg, who killed his wife, and he really should have. He literally helped design the ship that was supposed to be a Borg-killer. (It was the Defiant of you were curious.) He totally should have been aboard it when it was actually used against them. And the rest of the movie would have been better with him there as well.

lol nice but then Sisko would have had the vengeance character arc, not Picard. A cameo would have been great though. By far I would probably change the time travel method (do a sun slingshot - call back to 4) as with it now so easy it becomes a question of how the Federation (or Borg) EVER lost a fight anywhere.

Insurrection-Make the Baku the bad guys, because they already were. (And it goes without saying, don't make the TNG crew support them just because Picard wanted to get his geriatric dick wet from some centuries old hippie bitch.) That doesn't even invalidate the central conflict of the movie. The Federation wants the fountain of youth, because they're in the middle of the Dominion war, and could use the medical help... and the Baku are assholes who perched there and they don't want to share. Hell, have the Baku ally with the Dominion. (Because the immortal Founders don't even need a fountain of youth to begin with.)

Insurrection just needs to be scrapped and remade. The closest it could be salvaged is what SFDebris mentioned with more of the war in the film and the crew splitting up over the fate of the aliens.

Nemesis- Swap out Shinzon for Sela. The story would immediately have had that emotional impact that they were looking for with a clone of Picard. We never even found out what happened to Sela.
I'm going to be greedy and take 2. The Remans were also unnecessary, swap them for a purely Romulan faction that supported Sela. This probably still would have still been a bad movie... Nemesis probably needs more than just a change or two to make it ok. but I did my best.

Make the "Nemesis" Q. Give Q a movie and one last adventure with Picard.

Then in one fell swoop they were given a face, that of a moustache-twirling Ayesha ripoff subject to flattery and bamboozlement, and made into her slaves. I don't know about anyone else, but for me it killed the concept and the threat of the Borg.

Yeah, that was the problem they solved by Borging Picard in Best of Both Worlds. But you can only pull off that particular stunt once.

Ironic that Voyager ended up solving BOTH problems in Scorpion. Making the Borg "faceless" again, and then having Seven of Nine be the mouthpiece.

Could have also been interesting if they revealed that the Borg needed like a "server" for their hivemind to operate and so one of them (or for the real horror - someone they assimilated) was converted into a body-horror monstrosity as the "collective." Then if the crew take her out, the Borg mind fragments.

I did not really think that highly of khan. He just wasn't that memorable to me and I cannot understand the cult following around him. Was not a bad villain at all. He came across as a super meth addict with a cult following similar to that one episode of TOS where the enterprise gets hijacked by some dangerhairs and the leader makes some retarded decisions but no one cares and they get them all killed or seriously hurt.

What? How dare you!

Gaze into the pecs until you understand!

As it is the movie features what I think is the dumbest Trek movie moment outside of JJTrek, which is the scene where Steppenwolf 's Magic Carpet Ride starts blaring.

And here I was about to actually agree with you and you've got to go and say a thing like that...

 

[Drag-on Knight 91873]

Behind-the-scenes of ST: D.

 

[Calandrino]

Here's a fun game we can all play...

Change one thing about each TNG movie to make them better.

This game is too hard, partly because they are mostly unsalvageable and partly I can barely even remember what happened in any of them except First Contact. Malcolm McDowell was in a Star Trek movie, and he killed Captain Kirk? I dunno, that doesn't sound right. I remember Uhura fan-dancing and Kirk kicking a guy's knee-testicles and "what does God need with a starship" and "I need my pain" but nothing in Generations rings a bell for me. Maybe if the whole thing was a holodeck simulation that Riker was running during a TNG episode.

I hated the idea of the Borg Queen as soon as I heard about it. It got even worse when she turned out to be some kind of horny spinster. The chilling thing about the Borg was exactly what Q offered up: you can't outfight them, you can't outrun them, you can't negotiate with them. They're one vast, faceless, gestalt being made of zombie cyborgs, driven and calculating, but also emotionless and kind of mindless. Very instinctual, like a swarm of army ants.
Then in one fell swoop they were given a face, that of a moustache-twirling Ayesha ripoff subject to flattery and bamboozlement, and made into her slaves. I don't know about anyone else, but for me it killed the concept and the threat of the Borg.

Eh I think Descent already kinda ruined the borg a bit. FC sort of tried to leave a backdoor that the Queen wasn't really an actual queen ruling over them, like the writers did understand how retarded that was, but it didn't come across clearly and I guess they didn't stick with it too well.

 

[UnKillShredDur]

They also cut data's brother out of Nemesis. He was originally intended to have replaced him.

I guess they couldn't afford the actor...

 

[JamesFargo]

the script developed and had to be changed as he played his ideas off of Berman

...and the millions...

...AND MILLIONS...

...of SPATIAL ANOMALIES OUT THERE

 

[Tasty Tatty]

Cochrane is the best part of First Contact. As cliche as it can be, I like the honest adoration the crew has for the idea of him rather than the real man. The movie says that the Borgs were going to stop the first contact, but it's Cochrane's own flaws that could have prevented humanity from doing the first sstep to greatness.

The character could have been better sure, but it's hard not feel for him when he's so overwhelmed by these people telling him he's gonna great thinfs when he didn't think much of himself.