State mandated military service -

Zeke Von Genbu

Behold my Blade PANDORIA
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It wasn't really a suggestion, it was applying the ethical principles put forward to a slightly comparable government enterprise. I don't think the sky would come crashing down, but I also don't think it's practical, considering there isn't a single nation that doesn't have them (as far as I know).

Also, apparently you don't have VAT / sales tax in the US? Jealous. Are countries without sales tax fucked? No. Was the US fucked when it had really low income tax? No.



I mean, that's all fine. These same arguments can be made in regards to mandatory military service, where that service is the price you pay to be protected in the country, just like professional military learns how to defend strategically.

Also I forgot how low your US taxes are. I gotta get outta here.
I completely forgot about sales tax mostly because it isn't that high or notable imo, I always just see it as part of the purchase price which is my mistake for assuming that.

Sales taxes varies by state, but they aren't terribly high you maybe pay an extra 5-10 dollars on your groceries every 1-2 weeks depending on how much you buy or to look at it another way I pay maybe an extra 1 dollar or two when I eat fast food. It varies by state, so I usually don't think too hard about them as to me they're just kind of part of the purchase price. My apologies for possibly misleading you, though some states don't have sales tax and some don't have income tax at all (such as Montana), I'll use Florida as an example as I've lived there, Florida doesn't have state income tax but its sales tax rates varies between 6-8.5%.

Honestly taxes vary a lot by state so it is hard to explain what they are beyond US employment taxes which are pretty set in stone. I assume your country has paid healthcare if you pay so much in taxes, do note that healthcare in US is an issue in of itself so YMMV on how much that will benefit you vs the higher taxes.

I disagree that they're the same because the vast majority, unless they're mentally really fucked, can make income somehow. So anyone can pay the tax on that income, but not everyone is fit to join the army for many possible reasons physically or mentally. Little power level, but I have moderate scoliosis so my spine doesn't bend very well at all due to it being curved. I'm in some kind of back pain constantly regardless of what I do, and I'm a clutz that trips over themselves all the time because my body is not aligned properly. Not trying to fish for pity as I can still physically function fine overall, but I should not be anywhere near the battlefield as I am physically impaired to some degree from the get go which makes me something of a liability in actual fight and a waste to train for that reason.

Having a bunch of borderline useless soldiers still requires cost to board, train them, and equip them so you're basically just making a section of your army a very middling asset at best or a liability at worse while spending roughly the same costs as other more able soldiers. So why spend money on near useless assets, also if you force this much service how does it affect the actual compensation for loyal and generally more effective soldiers? Likely it'll go down to some degree unless you dramatically increase the miltiary budget. I guess you can make up meaningless jobs for crappy soldiers to do, but that sounds really inefficient. I know this isn't really an ethical argument, which is what you're trying to go for I believe, but to me the burden of the costs alone for miminal value is enough for me to say that forced service is a waste.
 

Hellbound Hellhound

kiwifarms.net
Just one quick question though, going beyond the ethical discussion: I know there is no such nation that offers it, but if you had the choice, would you really choose a lifetime of having to pay taxes over 2 years of either military or alternate service in the case of conscientious objection? I guess you would?
I would most likely choose taxation simply because I find it less objectionable as an affront to personal freedom, but I think my choice would also depend upon the context.

If my country was heavily taxing it's citizens and using the money for obviously corrupt purposes, then my tolerance for taxation would sharply decrease. Similarly, if my country was under attack in the manner it was during World War 2, I would be a lot more open to the idea of being compelled to defend it in some capacity (such as military service).
 
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Sprig of Parsley

Damnation dignified
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I'm inclined to think that if my country has reached a point at which it feels the need to press me into military duty they've basically already lost. I'm a decent shot and can follow instructions, but those alone do not a good soldier make. I mean, unless the people invading us intend to lay complete waste to us or horrifically enslave us, I might view a surrender while we still have the ability to dictate some sort of terms as being distinctly favorable to fighting to the last man.
 

Lemmingwise

Blamer
kiwifarms.net
I disagree that they're the same because the vast majority, unless they're mentally really fucked, can make income somehow. So anyone can pay the tax on that income, but not everyone is fit to join the army for many possible reasons physically or mentally. Little power level, but I have moderate scoliosis so my spine doesn't bend very well at all due to it being curved. I'm in some kind of back pain constantly regardless of what I do, and I'm a clutz that trips over themselves all the time because my body is not aligned properly. Not trying to fish for pity as I can still physically function fine overall, but I should not be anywhere near the battlefield as I am physically impaired to some degree from the get go which makes me something of a liability in actual fight and a waste to train for that reason.

I don't think any mandatory military service is without medical exam to decide who is fit for what.
 
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Zeke Von Genbu

Behold my Blade PANDORIA
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I don't think any mandatory military service is without medical exam to decide who is fit for what.
The point is the vast majority is fit to earn income in some manner and it is fair enough that everyone pays something to keep the government active and financially able to function. Because anyone can earn income in whatever way they please, as long as it isn't illegal business, it is reasonable to say you owe your country to some degree for giving you the ability to find employment in whatever legal activity you want unless your government.

Not everyone can join the army and be useful, and if you want people to just be forced into the army then you want to at least make them useful not only for the country's sake but to show that you aren't wasting people's time and possibly their lives. If you just made a bunch of fodder soldiers that'd be really cruel and a waste of human life, if you made less able people perform less physical duties how much work could you possibly give them without just making up jobs, and what if they're terrible at those less/non physical jobs the army provides anyway because they excel at history or something the army has little use for?

Even if you found all these people jobs somehow, the idea of this topic was to force people to toughen up, but if they can't be put into a boot camp because they're not physically useful then you aren't really accomplishing that much are you?
 

Zersetzung

popular twitch speedrunner edward snowden
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I am Jack's fucking xbox controller USAF drone interface with a 80-90% civilian kill rate and severely disproportionate operator PTSD outcomes
 

Zersetzung

popular twitch speedrunner edward snowden
kiwifarms.net
I trust the state to "toughen kids up" though lol

I'll just ignore the pervasive victim complex culture defining our entire political scape which can be directly traced back to specific (published) military research and provable ops which have been manipulating our social networks from at least 2012 onwards which are basically the reason we think people need "toughening up" in the first place

because haha yeah the state haha wants us to be tougher haha not haha fucking passive and haha compliant or anything like all the dystopian fiction in the last 100 years has been warning us about or anything.
All the problems in our system are probably entirely our own fault, due to general failings of character.
 

JosephStalin

Vozhd
True & Honest Fan
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I can see some sort of national service for everyone, at eighteen, for two years. Service could be in the military or in various civilian service corps, such as the Civilian Conservation Corps of the Depression, or today's California Conservation Corps. Everyone goes, unless severely disabled. No college deferments, etc.

Two years isn't that much, and goes by quickly. In the meantime, the person meets new people, possibly sees other parts of the country or foreign countries, gains some work experience, and will learn about themselves.

In my opinion, more and more people, especially young people, seem to have no real connection with the country. They are just...there. Two years' service, of any type, lets people get some skin in the game, see the nation they serve, see why they serve. America's worth it.

And yes, I have served, over twenty years.
 

Ghost of Wesley Willis

Whooping Batman's Ass in Heaven
kiwifarms.net
I doubt mandatory military service would even fix anything, considering how the military wants to use gender neutral terms for ranks or roles. Or the fact the entire military is just one giant pawn for corporations and Israel.
 
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