Subverting Expectations: The Megathread - Or How Baby Dick Creators ‘Sort of Forgot’ What an Anti-Climax Is

[Pokemonquistador2]

So the lesson here is, if you want to write a character that women will cream themselves over, you have to turn him into a jerk. I'm a woman and I think that's pretty sad, which is why I tend to avoid versions of characters that act like they were dredged from the bottom archives of fanfiction.net and just stick to the versions penned by the original authors.

 

[Berrakh]

So the lesson here is, if you want to write a character that women will cream themselves over, you have to turn him into a jerk. I'm a woman and I think that's pretty sad, which is why I tend to avoid versions of characters that act like they were dredged from the bottom archives of fanfiction.net and just stick to the versions penned by the original authors.

Anything super popular is either going to tap into an enduring cultural moment/phenomenon (like Gone with the Wind being a well known book adapted into an epic in scope motion picture with little real competition) or it's going to be sufficiently competent at pandering to a broad base ("no no, I like the big titty goth waifu because she's got a deep character dammit!"). It's either a lot of luck and skill or knowing how flatter the 95-105 IQ demographic (which is also a skill to be fair).

 

[Truthboi]

I posted about this earlier but this is the worst subversion of a character already figuring out the superhero's secret identity since the character figuring out has insulted and demeaned the superhero for many times prior for being late and missing out despite knowing he is out trying to save people (including days before this scene where he literally was fighting a cyborg that was about to kill her yet when he came back she bitched at him for being a coward even though she knew he was fighting to protect them). It gets worse since I found out that in the comic, this character actually liked that he was a superhero and broke up with him anyway when it got too much for her which sounds more mature than well this (if anyone has read the comic correct me if I'm wrong).

This skit honestly helps illustrate the issue much clearly

 

[Deathclaw Tiddehs]

Uncreative BBC trash.

I'm instantly reminded of Doctor Who. The series stopped being campy sci-fi at some point. It started trying to be way more serious than it was ever meant to be and started bending the rules on a whim.

For the first part of the new Doctor Who, it felt a lot like one-off stories with an overarching theme. But then the overarching theme turns into complete nonsense, even at the start. Real quick, Christopher Eccleston is the bitch boy for Mary Sue Rose and the 9xx-year-old quasi-immortal god romance arc. He exists, I guess, but he's immediately replaced in favor of David Tennant. I like David Tennant, but the story BBC chose to use with him had romance way too much. There is some good writing sprinkled in here and there that explores serious topics like how people react to long-term isolation or forced immortality. Yet, Rose never truly goes away until David Tennant banishes her and David Tennant ^2 (more about this later) back to the shadow realm alternate reality she got banished to earlier on in the series. One could argue that she "subverts" expectations by escaping and it was totally the Daleks blah blah blah, but I just don't. You can hint that she was coming back until the end of time, but the ending with her being in the alternate universe was so definitive that they could have easily ended it there. Rose has pretty much ruined the earlier seasons of Doctor Who for me because she's such a wet towel that feels like a self-insert for all the thirsty women. Then BBC does this again, and again. River Song. Clara. Red-head basic bitch who's name I can't remember. Apparently The Master wants in The Doctor's pants, too?! Does everyone in the universe want to fuck this man? Oh sorry. He's actually a woman now!

Time to talk about how Nu Doctor Who conveniently re-writes the rules of the universe as it sees fit. The earliest example I can think of is with David Tennant ^2. David Tennant ^2 was created from David Tennant's severed hand a la Luuke Skywalker style. Apparently, Time Lords can regenerate body parts when they have just recently regenerated because spare energy or whatever. David Tennant's severed hand is eventually found and it sits in a glass jar for a bit. Well, David Tennant gets shot by a Dalek, channels regeneration energy into his hand, red-head basic bitch touches it, and the hand grows into a whole fucking person. Because the rules are inconsistent, David Tennant ^2 has no resemblance to red-head basic bitch and is only an angry sperg who likes genocide because he was "created in a time of conflict." Also the rules on what he can remember are a bit inconsistent thank god he was only around for 1 episode. I guess my expectations are subverted because I never could have expected a hand to just grow into a whole new fucking person.

Nu Doctor Who wrote itself an "end" to the story, by stating that Time Lords only have 13 lives and Matt Smith is the last. For those of you that can count, you might be wondering "what the fuck, 11 != 13 get the fuck outta here." Well, David Tennant ^2 counts, but at least that makes sense... maybe. There's another life The Doctor has lived that even The Doctor has forgotten about. Matt Smith is gonna die. The series is gonna die. Fine. The show has gone on for a really long time and it's on the decline. Nope. Time to subvert expectations because deus ex machina the Time Lords give him a whole another set of new lives!

Enter Peter Capaldi. Peter Capaldi subverted my expectations in a good way. While the writing in his seasons makes me groan, with riveting story arcs such as marrying River Song (the latest in Mary Sue deus ex machina bullshit she's literally part Time Lord), the continuation of Clara wanting in The Doctor's pants, and more of The motherfuckin' Master, Peter Capaldi acts his heart out despite the shit writing he's surrounded by. Doctor Who has already tried to explore the long-term trauma from fighting in a war. We saw it shown as being explosive, showing how a character will be volatile or eruptive with their emotions. Then we saw the reclusive part, where The Doctor just refused to deal with people. As a character, he was never given a chance to grow and it is easy to distil each of the cycles into tropes on dealing with trauma. Peter Capaldi comes flying in, burns the entire thing to the fucking ground, and learns how to move on. He spends time moping, but he embraces the pain instead of continuing to run away from it, doing the thing that 3 other actors before him couldn't do. I really, really hated Peter Capaldi at first, because he seemed like he was going to be UwU random with a dose of insufferable asshole, but he legitimately brought complexity to the character that 3 other men before him couldn't.

So BBC decides that The Doctor needs to troon out. After 13 lives as a man, The Doctor grows tits and a vag. Why? Because Peter Capaldi's regeneration speech was about doing better and being caring. Apparently men are incapable of those feelings (despite the literal source material) so he has to be a woman now. Expectations subverted! Whew! I haven't watched the new series, but I've read some synopsis and apparently The Doctor was originally some god-child that understood how to regenerate before the Time Lords did. The regenerative quality that Time Lords are known for? Yeah. So some Galifreyan decided to extract the genetic code that allows for that and give that ability to all of the Galifreyans that became Time Lords. Essentially, The Doctor is unimaginably older than he-she thought it was. Clearly, the whole "I'm traumatized from the war" thing can't be used anymore, so The Doctor is the promised child that now she gets headaches whenever someone tries to bring up her past!

I didn't even get to talk about Matt Smith's arc, but I honestly can't remember anything that happened. Yet, I can't get the image out of my head that Matt Smith once starred in an incest Oedipus flick. Nu Doctor Who is so ridiculous that writing out the crazy twists that happen honestly sounds like the ravings of a mad man.

 

[Secret Asshole]

So the lesson here is, if you want to write a character that women will cream themselves over, you have to turn him into a jerk. I'm a woman and I think that's pretty sad, which is why I tend to avoid versions of characters that act like they were dredged from the bottom archives of fanfiction.net and just stick to the versions penned by the original authors.

Its not really about that, its more Cumberbatch was an attractive man so women fell over themselves. The real way to get 'women' to cream over them is pair up a hot guy with another hot guy and make them friends and grab the fujoshit demographic.

I posted about this earlier but this is the worst subversion of a character already figuring out the superhero's secret identity since the character figuring out has insulted and demeaned the superhero for many times prior for being late and missing out despite knowing he is out trying to save people (including days before this scene where he literally was fighting a cyborg that was about to kill her yet when he came back she bitched at him for being a coward even though she knew he was fighting to protect them). It gets worse since I found out that in the comic, this character actually liked that he was a superhero and broke up with him anyway when it got too much for her which sounds more mature than well this (if anyone has read the comic correct me if I'm wrong).

This skit honestly helps illustrate the issue much clearly

Its entirely possible that they made Amber unlikable because (MAJOR COMIC SPOILERS) Atom Eve is his real love interest who he marries in the comics so they wanted a clean break from her and a conclusion to the love triangle. I'm just glad they didn't delete the redhead again from continuity

I really have to read the comic.

I remember my Mother liked House 'until it got stupid', and I overheard one episode where he discovered his father was not his father. A big reveal but it's framed as not really solving anything. Then my Father chimed in, "too bad he's still an asshole." House would implicitly blame the father who raised him for his own personal shortcomings but now that connection is symbolically severed and he's....still an asshole. I think the man who raised him was also dead at this stage so there's really no salient connection left.

I could be wrong but I suspect that was the intended denouement. One that went nowhere fast. Which is common for TV. Different writers, overlapping productions, and the need to make the series extendable means it's wise to hold off on character development until you're sure you need it.

It's why only Sopranos and Breaking Bad seem to be remembered fondly while properties like Game of Thrones died in a fire. Because they stuck the landing far better than anything else. Each failed serial has its own specific story to tell but in the broad strokes there's always a similar tale: unknown number of seasons to make, only so many ideas, only so much character development.

The problem is that a lot of creators seem to think that the landing doesn't matter. I don't really know why, but 'the journey is more important than the destination' is a bunch of bullshit, because if the destination is shit, the journey is then just a bunch of wasted time, innit? (As my British friends would say). House also was a show that tried to balance a procedural with a show that changed over time, which doesn't really work, because a procedural basically resets and a show that changes over time doesn't. Which is why you have to sort of pick one then the other, and House really didn't, so it wavered and it became this weird bag where there were plot points but they never really mattered because the show constantly reset because it was too afraid to grow.

I think House would be more interesting nowadays as shows have evolved since then so the character would evolve as well, since shows generally pick which they want (procedural or other) and House still had the problem of actors thinking movies were more 'prestigious' so you had a lot of turn over for stars leaving for movie careers and then face planting. Nowadays most actors stick to TV because its gotten a LOT better money and prestige wise. Not to mention movie careers are the more rocky ones nowadays.

I'm instantly reminded of Doctor Who. The series stopped being campy sci-fi at some point. It started trying to be way more serious than it was ever meant to be and started bending the rules on a whim.

For the first part of the new Doctor Who, it felt a lot like one-off stories with an overarching theme. But then the overarching theme turns into complete nonsense, even at the start. Real quick, Christopher Eccleston is the bitch boy for Mary Sue Rose and the 9xx-year-old quasi-immortal god romance arc. He exists, I guess, but he's immediately replaced in favor of David Tennant. I like David Tennant, but the story BBC chose to use with him had romance way too much. There is some good writing sprinkled in here and there that explores serious topics like how people react to long-term isolation or forced immortality. Yet, Rose never truly goes away until David Tennant banishes her and David Tennant ^2 (more about this later) back to the shadow realm alternate reality she got banished to earlier on in the series. One could argue that she "subverts" expectations by escaping and it was totally the Daleks blah blah blah, but I just don't. You can hint that she was coming back until the end of time, but the ending with her being in the alternate universe was so definitive that they could have easily ended it there. Rose has pretty much ruined the earlier seasons of Doctor Who for me because she's such a wet towel that feels like a self-insert for all the thirsty women. Then BBC does this again, and again. River Song. Clara. Red-head basic bitch who's name I can't remember. Apparently The Master wants in The Doctor's pants, too?! Does everyone in the universe want to fuck this man? Oh sorry. He's actually a woman now!

Time to talk about how Nu Doctor Who conveniently re-writes the rules of the universe as it sees fit. The earliest example I can think of is with David Tennant ^2. David Tennant ^2 was created from David Tennant's severed hand a la Luuke Skywalker style. Apparently, Time Lords can regenerate body parts when they have just recently regenerated because spare energy or whatever. David Tennant's severed hand is eventually found and it sits in a glass jar for a bit. Well, David Tennant gets shot by a Dalek, channels regeneration energy into his hand, red-head basic bitch touches it, and the hand grows into a whole fucking person. Because the rules are inconsistent, David Tennant ^2 has no resemblance to red-head basic bitch and is only an angry sperg who likes genocide because he was "created in a time of conflict." Also the rules on what he can remember are a bit inconsistent thank god he was only around for 1 episode. I guess my expectations are subverted because I never could have expected a hand to just grow into a whole new fucking person.

Nu Doctor Who wrote itself an "end" to the story, by stating that Time Lords only have 13 lives and Matt Smith is the last. For those of you that can count, you might be wondering "what the fuck, 11 != 13 get the fuck outta here." Well, David Tennant ^2 counts, but at least that makes sense... maybe. There's another life The Doctor has lived that even The Doctor has forgotten about. Matt Smith is gonna die. The series is gonna die. Fine. The show has gone on for a really long time and it's on the decline. Nope. Time to subvert expectations because deus ex machina the Time Lords give him a whole another set of new lives!

Enter Peter Capaldi. Peter Capaldi subverted my expectations in a good way. While the writing in his seasons makes me groan, with riveting story arcs such as marrying River Song (the latest in Mary Sue deus ex machina bullshit she's literally part Time Lord), the continuation of Clara wanting in The Doctor's pants, and more of The motherfuckin' Master, Peter Capaldi acts his heart out despite the shit writing he's surrounded by. Doctor Who has already tried to explore the long-term trauma from fighting in a war. We saw it shown as being explosive, showing how a character will be volatile or eruptive with their emotions. Then we saw the reclusive part, where The Doctor just refused to deal with people. As a character, he was never given a chance to grow and it is easy to distil each of the cycles into tropes on dealing with trauma. Peter Capaldi comes flying in, burns the entire thing to the fucking ground, and learns how to move on. He spends time moping, but he embraces the pain instead of continuing to run away from it, doing the thing that 3 other actors before him couldn't do. I really, really hated Peter Capaldi at first, because he seemed like he was going to be UwU random with a dose of insufferable asshole, but he legitimately brought complexity to the character that 3 other men before him couldn't.

So BBC decides that The Doctor needs to troon out. After 13 lives as a man, The Doctor grows tits and a vag. Why? Because Peter Capaldi's regeneration speech was about doing better and being caring. Apparently men are incapable of those feelings (despite the literal source material) so he has to be a woman now. Expectations subverted! Whew! I haven't watched the new series, but I've read some synopsis and apparently The Doctor was originally some god-child that understood how to regenerate before the Time Lords did. The regenerative quality that Time Lords are known for? Yeah. So some Galifreyan decided to extract the genetic code that allows for that and give that ability to all of the Galifreyans that became Time Lords. Essentially, The Doctor is unimaginably older than he-she thought it was. Clearly, the whole "I'm traumatized from the war" thing can't be used anymore, so The Doctor is the promised child that now she gets headaches whenever someone tries to bring up her past!

I didn't even get to talk about Matt Smith's arc, but I honestly can't remember anything that happened. Yet, I can't get the image out of my head that Matt Smith once starred in an incest Oedipus flick. Nu Doctor Who is so ridiculous that writing out the crazy twists that happen honestly sounds like the ravings of a mad man.

Doctor Who really needs a thread all of its own. Where 'Subverting Expectations' is a poor excuse for terrible fucking propaganda.

 

[Overcast]

The problem is that a lot of creators seem to think that the landing doesn't matter. I don't really know why, but 'the journey is more important than the destination' is a bunch of bullshit, because if the destination is shit, the journey is then just a bunch of wasted time, innit? (As my British friends would say).

It really is odd to me. The ending of something is usually going to be the first thing most people will remember about a movie, show, game or book because that's the latest memory they had of it. I would assume it would be important in the long term to make sure you stick the landing as best you can so people will want to revisit that property at some point, in which case, you can take advantage of that and milk the property for what it's worth.

For me, I've recently played through Silent Hill 2 again and I cannot imagine the game being nearly as fondly remembered if the last hour of the game wasn't as brilliantly done as it was. It made everything up to that point of the game make sense and put things in a completely different light on a repeat playthrough. Hell, I kinda want to play it again soon because it was just that good.

Whereas with Mass Effect 3, everything that the series stood for got thrown out because the director wanted an ending where players can "speculate about what happened". Leaving people no reason to want to play any of the games again because at that point, they know their choices and what kind of character they made ultimately didn't matter.

 

[Berrakh]

The problem is that a lot of creators seem to think that the landing doesn't matter. I don't really know why, but 'the journey is more important than the destination' is a bunch of bullshit, because if the destination is shit, the journey is then just a bunch of wasted time, innit? (As my British friends would say). House also was a show that tried to balance a procedural with a show that changed over time, which doesn't really work, because a procedural basically resets and a show that changes over time doesn't. Which is why you have to sort of pick one then the other, and House really didn't, so it wavered and it became this weird bag where there were plot points but they never really mattered because the show constantly reset because it was too afraid to grow.

I think House would be more interesting nowadays as shows have evolved since then so the character would evolve as well, since shows generally pick which they want (procedural or other) and House still had the problem of actors thinking movies were more 'prestigious' so you had a lot of turn over for stars leaving for movie careers and then face planting. Nowadays most actors stick to TV because its gotten a LOT better money and prestige wise. Not to mention movie careers are the more rocky ones nowadays.

I agree. The journey being more than the destination is true, but if the destination is a flat zero it's still gonna be shit. They're interwoven in any good story, making it more than the sum of either. A good journey with a bad destination invalidates the journey. I know several normie GoT-hards who simply can't rewatch the show after the ending. And a bad journey with a good ending sounds like an oxymoron because nobody sticks with it to find out. And the ending has nothing to work off of anyway so I doubt it even exists,

And I think analyzing the journey works very well for concise and definite stories, not seasons upon seasons of a narrative which can often only make sense when it's all over. It's easier to manage. For a series the ending matters much more than the specifics of season 2, which is long receded in the memory of the viewer anyway.
Like TLOU2, a concise and cinematic story, blew both its journey and destination. I know that Druckmann didn't think about why any player would want to play as Abby in the near term (when you're actually playing as her). He only thought about how it will make sense by the end which is further compounded by the ending being shit. Imagine putting off all your engagement until the end like a pretentious asshat and choking anyway.

But a lot of stories I found overrated I did so precisely because I thought they cared too much about their precious ending and refused to bother to develop elements which didn't directly tie into it (but could have).

 

[Deathclaw Tiddehs]

Doctor Who really needs a thread all of its own. Where 'Subverting Expectations' is a poor excuse for terrible fucking propaganda.

I'd love to help contribute to a Doctor Who thread sometime! Sounds like it would be a true asylum for everyone involved!

It really is odd to me. The ending of something is usually going to be the first thing most people will remember about a movie, show, game or book because that's the latest memory they had of it. I would assume it would be important in the long term to make sure you stick the landing as best you can so people will want to revisit that property at some point, in which case, you can take advantage of that and milk the property for what it's worth.

For me, I've recently played through Silent Hill 2 again and I cannot imagine the game being nearly as fondly remembered if the last hour of the game wasn't as brilliantly done as it was. It made everything up to that point of the game make sense and put things in a completely different light on a repeat playthrough. Hell, I kinda want to play it again soon because it was just that good.

Whereas with Mass Effect 3, everything that the series stood for got thrown out because the director wanted an ending where players can "speculate about what happened". Leaving people no reason to want to play any of the games again because at that point, they know their choices and what kind of character they made ultimately didn't matter.

I agree wholly with your thoughts on Silent Hill 2. Honestly, it is one of my favorite games of all time, right up there with Mass Effect 2 and Portal. I know some folks don't like Silent Hill 3 as much, but I also enjoy it on the same level as 2, even if the themes are a bit more "in your face." Showing that the nightmare of Silent Hill was tailored to the person was a really great touch, and is a great way to turn Silent Hill into "Personal Hell." I could probably gush about Silent Hill 2 all day, but I'll post a video made by someone else gushing about the game that sums up the parts of why I think it's really great.

Mass Effect 3 had a problem where the stakes were raised too high. I think the reason why Mass Effect 2 worked so well is because the ending was kept reasonable. But for Mass Effect 3, they had to stop pussy-footing around the Reaper invasion and finally commit to it. Until the end, I think the game is really great. It escalates slowly, as people you've spent the past 2 games with have the potential to die for good. You have to make the decision to save the Krogan race, keep the promise you made to Wrex, or leave them to slowly become extinct. You must choose between Tali or Legion and it will affect how well the galaxy can help fight the Reaper invasion. The game spends the entire time throwing in everything it needs for an explosive ending, only to fizzle out at the end. Everything gently boils over, with a different colored filter on each of the endings. I think if Bioware was less excited to show Joker making cool sci-fi hand motions and tempered their expectations into making a slideshow ending like Fallout: New Vegas, the ending would have gone over better. I know, Bioware eventually patched in the extended endings, but the original ending has stuck with me.

Also what the fuck is with the stupid child? I feel like that question was never really answered except by the fans speculating that Shepard was dealing with indoctrination.

 

[AnOminous]

So BBC decides that The Doctor needs to troon out.

They should have done that a lot earlier and on top of that, Helen Mirren would have made an awesome Doctor.

 

[starborn427614]

I'm instantly reminded of Doctor Who. The series stopped being campy sci-fi at some point. It started trying to be way more serious than it was ever meant to be and started bending the rules on a whim.

For the first part of the new Doctor Who, it felt a lot like one-off stories with an overarching theme. But then the overarching theme turns into complete nonsense, even at the start. Real quick, Christopher Eccleston is the bitch boy for Mary Sue Rose and the 9xx-year-old quasi-immortal god romance arc. He exists, I guess, but he's immediately replaced in favor of David Tennant. I like David Tennant, but the story BBC chose to use with him had romance way too much. There is some good writing sprinkled in here and there that explores serious topics like how people react to long-term isolation or forced immortality. Yet, Rose never truly goes away until David Tennant banishes her and David Tennant ^2 (more about this later) back to the shadow realm alternate reality she got banished to earlier on in the series. One could argue that she "subverts" expectations by escaping and it was totally the Daleks blah blah blah, but I just don't. You can hint that she was coming back until the end of time, but the ending with her being in the alternate universe was so definitive that they could have easily ended it there. Rose has pretty much ruined the earlier seasons of Doctor Who for me because she's such a wet towel that feels like a self-insert for all the thirsty women. Then BBC does this again, and again. River Song. Clara. Red-head basic bitch who's name I can't remember. Apparently The Master wants in The Doctor's pants, too?! Does everyone in the universe want to fuck this man? Oh sorry. He's actually a woman now!

Time to talk about how Nu Doctor Who conveniently re-writes the rules of the universe as it sees fit. The earliest example I can think of is with David Tennant ^2. David Tennant ^2 was created from David Tennant's severed hand a la Luuke Skywalker style. Apparently, Time Lords can regenerate body parts when they have just recently regenerated because spare energy or whatever. David Tennant's severed hand is eventually found and it sits in a glass jar for a bit. Well, David Tennant gets shot by a Dalek, channels regeneration energy into his hand, red-head basic bitch touches it, and the hand grows into a whole fucking person. Because the rules are inconsistent, David Tennant ^2 has no resemblance to red-head basic bitch and is only an angry sperg who likes genocide because he was "created in a time of conflict." Also the rules on what he can remember are a bit inconsistent thank god he was only around for 1 episode. I guess my expectations are subverted because I never could have expected a hand to just grow into a whole new fucking person.

Nu Doctor Who wrote itself an "end" to the story, by stating that Time Lords only have 13 lives and Matt Smith is the last. For those of you that can count, you might be wondering "what the fuck, 11 != 13 get the fuck outta here." Well, David Tennant ^2 counts, but at least that makes sense... maybe. There's another life The Doctor has lived that even The Doctor has forgotten about. Matt Smith is gonna die. The series is gonna die. Fine. The show has gone on for a really long time and it's on the decline. Nope. Time to subvert expectations because deus ex machina the Time Lords give him a whole another set of new lives!

Enter Peter Capaldi. Peter Capaldi subverted my expectations in a good way. While the writing in his seasons makes me groan, with riveting story arcs such as marrying River Song (the latest in Mary Sue deus ex machina bullshit she's literally part Time Lord), the continuation of Clara wanting in The Doctor's pants, and more of The motherfuckin' Master, Peter Capaldi acts his heart out despite the shit writing he's surrounded by. Doctor Who has already tried to explore the long-term trauma from fighting in a war. We saw it shown as being explosive, showing how a character will be volatile or eruptive with their emotions. Then we saw the reclusive part, where The Doctor just refused to deal with people. As a character, he was never given a chance to grow and it is easy to distil each of the cycles into tropes on dealing with trauma. Peter Capaldi comes flying in, burns the entire thing to the fucking ground, and learns how to move on. He spends time moping, but he embraces the pain instead of continuing to run away from it, doing the thing that 3 other actors before him couldn't do. I really, really hated Peter Capaldi at first, because he seemed like he was going to be UwU random with a dose of insufferable asshole, but he legitimately brought complexity to the character that 3 other men before him couldn't.

So BBC decides that The Doctor needs to troon out. After 13 lives as a man, The Doctor grows tits and a vag. Why? Because Peter Capaldi's regeneration speech was about doing better and being caring. Apparently men are incapable of those feelings (despite the literal source material) so he has to be a woman now. Expectations subverted! Whew! I haven't watched the new series, but I've read some synopsis and apparently The Doctor was originally some god-child that understood how to regenerate before the Time Lords did. The regenerative quality that Time Lords are known for? Yeah. So some Galifreyan decided to extract the genetic code that allows for that and give that ability to all of the Galifreyans that became Time Lords. Essentially, The Doctor is unimaginably older than he-she thought it was. Clearly, the whole "I'm traumatized from the war" thing can't be used anymore, so The Doctor is the promised child that now she gets headaches whenever someone tries to bring up her past!

I didn't even get to talk about Matt Smith's arc, but I honestly can't remember anything that happened. Yet, I can't get the image out of my head that Matt Smith once starred in an incest Oedipus flick. Nu Doctor Who is so ridiculous that writing out the crazy twists that happen honestly sounds like the ravings of a mad man.

Peter is the type of fan who respects what he loves, even if it means slogging through crap scripts for the sake of keeping the show afloat. He put his all into every performance and god damn he'll be remembered come the 100th anniversary because of it.

As for 13, they really missed their shot to deliver a fantastic Missy-like performance. Hell, they should've just cast Gomez as 13 since it's not like the Doctor hasn't taken faces of people he's met before as some sort of symbolism. It would've led to some great chemistry between the Doctor and the Master come Season 11 as the latter tries to deny how much the Doctor really gives a shit about him in spite of all the awful shit he does.

 

[Salt Water Taffy]

The problem is that a lot of creators seem to think that the landing doesn't matter. I don't really know why, but 'the journey is more important than the destination' is a bunch of bullshit, because if the destination is shit, the journey is then just a bunch of wasted time, innit? (As my British friends would say). House also was a show that tried to balance a procedural with a show that changed over time, which doesn't really work, because a procedural basically resets and a show that changes over time doesn't. Which is why you have to sort of pick one then the other, and House really didn't, so it wavered and it became this weird bag where there were plot points but they never really mattered because the show constantly reset because it was too afraid to grow.

It really is odd to me. The ending of something is usually going to be the first thing most people will remember about a movie, show, game or book because that's the latest memory they had of it. I would assume it would be important in the long term to make sure you stick the landing as best you can so people will want to revisit that property at some point, in which case, you can take advantage of that and milk the property for what it's worth.

The problem with TV shows is that unless you're a big wig with multiple successful shows behind you, you don't know when starting a TV show if you're even going to get one full season, much less a series. TV shows more or less work on a variation of the Peter Principle - whereas the Peter Principle is about workers being promoted to the level of their incompetence, TV shows are renewed to the point of their incompetence - mostly. A LOT of last seasons of TV shows feel meandering or rushed, because all the talent is bored with the show but are stuck with their cash cow until the network finally puts it out of its misery. But, it can be hard to tell from the higher-ups' perspective when's the right time to pull the plug. Let it run too long and you get the above scenario, but pull the plug too early and then you get angry fan letters calling you an uncultured slob and asking you to uncancel a show (which does happen, and then that once beloved sacred cow usually ends up falling into the same fate as the shows that linger uninterrupted). The best shows end when the talent agrees its time to call it quits and gives a show a proper denouement season. But even when the cancelation is on the writers and not the executives, it can still go poorly - I kinda touched on this in one of the SWT videos, but Game of Thrones ended solely because Benioff and Weiss wanted to move on, HBO was willing to fund GOT until the cows came home.

 

[Duncan Hills Coffee]

The best shows end when the talent agrees its time to call it quits and gives a show a proper denouement season. But even when the cancelation is on the writers and not the executives, it can still go poorly - I kinda touched on this in one of the SWT videos, but Game of Thrones ended solely because Benioff and Weiss wanted to move on, HBO was willing to fund GOT until the cows came home.

This is why people tend to praise Jerry Seinfeld for ending the show when he did. It was getting pretty long in the tooth by the end; the episodes were getting weirder, Larry David left after the 7th season, and the remaining writers, Seinfeld being among them, felt it had run its course. Seinfeld famously turned down a huge multi million dollar deal to keep it going, because even he realized that if he stopped while he was on top, the show would remain a favorite for years to come rather than linger into mediocrity.

Though it's kinda funny when discussing Seinfeld in this context because its finale remains divisive among fans of the show. At the same time, since it was a sitcom that wasn't interested in things like character growth, the ending didn't completely ruin everything that came before, unlike the Game of Thrones ending. You can turn on a random episode of Seinfeld and not feel angry that it inevitably leads to everyone going to prison. Can't really do that with Game of Thrones.

 

[Zarael]

The problem is that a lot of creators seem to think that the landing doesn't matter. I don't really know why, but 'the journey is more important than the destination' is a bunch of bullshit, because if the destination is shit, the journey is then just a bunch of wasted time, innit?

It's baffling how many writers these days don't seem to give the ending any consideration when they add new plot threads to their stories. I get that big multi season TV shows have too many people involved to really be able to plot out an entire series from start to end, things change and you've got to have some flexibility. I get it. On the other hand it definitely seems like too many of them randomly throw shit in without giving any consideration to how this new plot point is going to be resolved in the future, it's extremely lazy and they've been getting away with it since LOST.

The ending matters more than anything. Seeing a story have a satisfying resolution is what makes people want to go back and relive the story and see everything that led up to it in a new light. Even more so if the ending casts previous events in a different light and gives the series a different feel once you've gone through it. Sticking the landing is probably the most important thing. If you don't do it then people won't really want to go back and rewatch and it makes the entire series a waste of time in retrospect. How many people have bothered to go back and rewatch Game of Thrones knowing how it ended? I'd say only a small fraction of the people who would've if it actually had a satisfying ending, and the entire series which was largely considered one of the best shows on TV for most of its run will be marred by the fact its ending is absolute garbage. The "journey" in this case was satisfying, but only once and the experience of the journey once you know the ending is compromised by the fact you know it's leading up to a big fat nothingburger.

 

[Berrakh]

It's baffling how many writers these days don't seem to give the ending any consideration when they add new plot threads to their stories. I get that big multi season TV shows have too many people involved to really be able to plot out an entire series from start to end, things change and you've got to have some flexibility. I get it. On the other hand it definitely seems like too many of them randomly throw shit in without giving any consideration to how this new plot point is going to be resolved in the future, it's extremely lazy and they've been getting away with it since LOST.

The ending matters more than anything. Seeing a story have a satisfying resolution is what makes people want to go back and relive the story and see everything that led up to it in a new light. Even more so if the ending casts previous events in a different light and gives the series a different feel once you've gone through it. Sticking the landing is probably the most important thing. If you don't do it then people won't really want to go back and rewatch and it makes the entire series a waste of time in retrospect. How many people have bothered to go back and rewatch Game of Thrones knowing how it ended? I'd say only a small fraction of the people who would've if it actually had a satisfying ending, and the entire series which was largely considered one of the best shows on TV for most of its run will be marred by the fact its ending is absolute garbage. The "journey" in this case was satisfying, but only once and the experience of the journey once you know the ending is compromised by the fact you know it's leading up to a big fat nothingburger.

it's a good way to undermine the confidence of your audience: to make decisions irrespective of what's coming next.

 

[Deadman]

And it's mind boggling to realize that the subverting that happened in Danganronpa V3's ending, while it was still divisive, didn't completely nuke that fanbase, compared to those other instances of subverting. Granted, the DR fandom is it's own can of worms...

Spoiler: V3 Ending talk

Granted, part of the reasoning for the ending, was that the staff behind the games wanted to make another game, but were obligated by the company to make another Danganronpa game, so the staff made the game with this double middle finger ending, as an attempt to kill off the franchise. It also bears resemblance to Mass Effect 3's ending, except you can tell that it was deliberate by the staff, so the sting isn't as bad.

Spoiler: DANGANRONPA SPOILER

i think v3's subversive ending has been generally more well received by the fanbase because DR is always known for its insane batshit subversive twist's and endings. (this is a series that, by the first game, revealed that the outside world is a apocalyptic wasteland and that the only reason the mastermind did any of this was to jack off sexually on her friends getting killed for shits and giggles. for a game where the entire goal is to escape, i don't think you cant call that subversive. ) i actually would applaud kodaka and co for taking to the point where its basically a "take this job and shove it".

If it weren't for the fact that its immediately followed up by a stupid epilogue that render's it completely invalid.
"Shirogane (possibly) lied guyz! we would never sign up for this sick shit!"
ugh.... i am so glad kodaka actually followed up on the world actually ended and not go the route of "junko lied!" in future installment's. (because they do imply in the final trial of the first game that junko could have possibly lied about the world for despairs, thankfully later installments (2 and UDG in particular) confirmed that, yes, she did end the world.)

 

[Dang Woodchucks!]

I'm instantly reminded of Doctor Who. The series stopped being campy sci-fi at some point. It started trying to be way more serious than it was ever meant to be and started bending the rules on a whim.

For the first part of the new Doctor Who, it felt a lot like one-off stories with an overarching theme. But then the overarching theme turns into complete nonsense, even at the start. Real quick, Christopher Eccleston is the bitch boy for Mary Sue Rose and the 9xx-year-old quasi-immortal god romance arc. He exists, I guess, but he's immediately replaced in favor of David Tennant. I like David Tennant, but the story BBC chose to use with him had romance way too much. There is some good writing sprinkled in here and there that explores serious topics like how people react to long-term isolation or forced immortality. Yet, Rose never truly goes away until David Tennant banishes her and David Tennant ^2 (more about this later) back to the shadow realm alternate reality she got banished to earlier on in the series. One could argue that she "subverts" expectations by escaping and it was totally the Daleks blah blah blah, but I just don't. You can hint that she was coming back until the end of time, but the ending with her being in the alternate universe was so definitive that they could have easily ended it there. Rose has pretty much ruined the earlier seasons of Doctor Who for me because she's such a wet towel that feels like a self-insert for all the thirsty women. Then BBC does this again, and again. River Song. Clara. Red-head basic bitch who's name I can't remember. Apparently The Master wants in The Doctor's pants, too?! Does everyone in the universe want to fuck this man? Oh sorry. He's actually a woman now!

Time to talk about how Nu Doctor Who conveniently re-writes the rules of the universe as it sees fit. The earliest example I can think of is with David Tennant ^2. David Tennant ^2 was created from David Tennant's severed hand a la Luuke Skywalker style. Apparently, Time Lords can regenerate body parts when they have just recently regenerated because spare energy or whatever. David Tennant's severed hand is eventually found and it sits in a glass jar for a bit. Well, David Tennant gets shot by a Dalek, channels regeneration energy into his hand, red-head basic bitch touches it, and the hand grows into a whole fucking person. Because the rules are inconsistent, David Tennant ^2 has no resemblance to red-head basic bitch and is only an angry sperg who likes genocide because he was "created in a time of conflict." Also the rules on what he can remember are a bit inconsistent thank god he was only around for 1 episode. I guess my expectations are subverted because I never could have expected a hand to just grow into a whole new fucking person.

Nu Doctor Who wrote itself an "end" to the story, by stating that Time Lords only have 13 lives and Matt Smith is the last. For those of you that can count, you might be wondering "what the fuck, 11 != 13 get the fuck outta here." Well, David Tennant ^2 counts, but at least that makes sense... maybe. There's another life The Doctor has lived that even The Doctor has forgotten about. Matt Smith is gonna die. The series is gonna die. Fine. The show has gone on for a really long time and it's on the decline. Nope. Time to subvert expectations because deus ex machina the Time Lords give him a whole another set of new lives!

Enter Peter Capaldi. Peter Capaldi subverted my expectations in a good way. While the writing in his seasons makes me groan, with riveting story arcs such as marrying River Song (the latest in Mary Sue deus ex machina bullshit she's literally part Time Lord), the continuation of Clara wanting in The Doctor's pants, and more of The motherfuckin' Master, Peter Capaldi acts his heart out despite the shit writing he's surrounded by. Doctor Who has already tried to explore the long-term trauma from fighting in a war. We saw it shown as being explosive, showing how a character will be volatile or eruptive with their emotions. Then we saw the reclusive part, where The Doctor just refused to deal with people. As a character, he was never given a chance to grow and it is easy to distil each of the cycles into tropes on dealing with trauma. Peter Capaldi comes flying in, burns the entire thing to the fucking ground, and learns how to move on. He spends time moping, but he embraces the pain instead of continuing to run away from it, doing the thing that 3 other actors before him couldn't do. I really, really hated Peter Capaldi at first, because he seemed like he was going to be UwU random with a dose of insufferable asshole, but he legitimately brought complexity to the character that 3 other men before him couldn't.

So BBC decides that The Doctor needs to troon out. After 13 lives as a man, The Doctor grows tits and a vag. Why? Because Peter Capaldi's regeneration speech was about doing better and being caring. Apparently men are incapable of those feelings (despite the literal source material) so he has to be a woman now. Expectations subverted! Whew! I haven't watched the new series, but I've read some synopsis and apparently The Doctor was originally some god-child that understood how to regenerate before the Time Lords did. The regenerative quality that Time Lords are known for? Yeah. So some Galifreyan decided to extract the genetic code that allows for that and give that ability to all of the Galifreyans that became Time Lords. Essentially, The Doctor is unimaginably older than he-she thought it was. Clearly, the whole "I'm traumatized from the war" thing can't be used anymore, so The Doctor is the promised child that now she gets headaches whenever someone tries to bring up her past!

I didn't even get to talk about Matt Smith's arc, but I honestly can't remember anything that happened. Yet, I can't get the image out of my head that Matt Smith once starred in an incest Oedipus flick. Nu Doctor Who is so ridiculous that writing out the crazy twists that happen honestly sounds like the ravings of a mad man.

As someone who just could not get into Doctor Who, I did watch most of it's spin-off Torchwood (or how I learned to stop caring about everyone not named Jack Harkness), I always wondered just how the fuck the "mystery hand" arc ended since the fucking thing was a running gag most of the first season. It certainly subverted... something, since it literally accomplished nothing.

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

Enh. I'll just stick to Harry Partridge if I want my British Subverting Expectations Fix:

 

[ZMOT]

Also what the fuck is with the stupid child? I feel like that question was never really answered except by the fans speculating that Shepard was dealing with indoctrination.

the child is supposed to be PTSD, at least that's the most sensible theory I saw discussed back then. doesn't make much sense, given your possible background in 1 and losing one or more teammates over the two games, but that's bioware for you. even survivor's guilt would've been better.

Mass Effect 3 had a problem where the stakes were raised too high. I think the reason why Mass Effect 2 worked so well is because the ending was kept reasonable. But for Mass Effect 3, they had to stop pussy-footing around the Reaper invasion and finally commit to it. Until the end, I think the game is really great.

>mass effect 2 ending with a t-800 reaper
>me2 making no sense in universe or the story in context
>me3 is great until the end

eeeeeeeeeh... I give you me2, it has some good parts, and some bad parts, which cancel each other out somewhat, but since you could skip it and don't miss anything most people give it a pass and don't dwell too much on the bad stuff.
me3 starts shit right out of the gate tho. I sperged about it before in another post, but in short: kid dying for DRAMA and shepard characterization that goes nowhere, austin powers sexbot so edi can have a body (why not just fucking built her one), one of the laziest deus ex machinas I've ever heard of ("we suddenly found something on mars!!!"), lol rachni queen (cuz choices matter), reapers suddenly giving a shit about humans because we're so very super special like none of the other dozens or so civilizations they've culled were, taking their sweet ass time not just glassing earth and moving on, literally moving the fucking citadel there because bioware wanted "TAKE BACK EARTH" for marketing, literally have the xbox hueg deus ex machina dock with the citadel in the middle of a fucking space fight, where none of the reapers who knew what we were up to decided just to shoot at it, or simply kamikaze it. seriously, the ending was the least offensive part of mass effect 3.

people like to blame the ending, but just red/green/blue wouldn't have that effect. it starts much sooner, and just because there are some golden nuggets in that turd doesn't mean it isn't still a turd.

and the entire series which was largely considered one of the best shows on TV for most of its run will be marred by the fact its ending is absolute garbage.

which I never understood, or maybe western media (which I mostly tend to ignore these days) has become so shit it simply wins by comparison. or maybe I'm not normie enough. but still, that even the ending soured them that hard is an accomplishment...

 

[L50LasPak]

I maintain that The Last Jedi was a brilliant movie and the best of the three because it crashed the Sequel Trilogy with no survivors. It literally ruined the entire franchise. Rian Johnson is an hero and I salute him.

 

[Secret Asshole]

This is why people tend to praise Jerry Seinfeld for ending the show when he did. It was getting pretty long in the tooth by the end; the episodes were getting weirder, Larry David left after the 7th season, and the remaining writers, Seinfeld being among them, felt it had run its course. Seinfeld famously turned down a huge multi million dollar deal to keep it going, because even he realized that if he stopped while he was on top, the show would remain a favorite for years to come rather than linger into mediocrity.

Though it's kinda funny when discussing Seinfeld in this context because its finale remains divisive among fans of the show. At the same time, since it was a sitcom that wasn't interested in things like character growth, the ending didn't completely ruin everything that came before, unlike the Game of Thrones ending. You can turn on a random episode of Seinfeld and not feel angry that it inevitably leads to everyone going to prison. Can't really do that with Game of Thrones.

It was divisive at the time. But tbh, Jerry Seinfeld understood that all of its characters were terrible fucking people, so them going to jail for a year was quite deserved. Especially since it wasn't focused on character growth, none of the characters ever learned anything and it completely fucked them over (especially when they had all the people who they wronged testify at the trial to how they were horrible cunts). I think it really hammered home the point of the show that 'These people are horrible people who deserve to be in jail'.

I mean, the entire cast were people you could picture at laughing and mocking a dude for being in trouble and being pieces of total dogshit. That's the point. I agree fully with that ending, and its basically the entire cast getting what they fucking deserve. Anyone pissed at that doesn't really understand the show. As Larry David famously said, its a show about nothing. In that, these people make it all about them, they take non-problems and escalate them because of their egos. Seinfield and David understood what the show is about.

Curb Your Enthusiasm is basically like Seinfeld squared as Larry David portrays himself as a terrible fucking person.

the child is supposed to be PTSD, at least that's the most sensible theory I saw discussed back then. doesn't make much sense, given your possible background in 1 and losing one or more teammates over the two games, but that's bioware for you. even survivor's guilt would've been better.


>mass effect 2 ending with a t-800 reaper
>me2 making no sense in universe or the story in context
>me3 is great until the end

eeeeeeeeeh... I give you me2, it has some good parts, and some bad parts, which cancel each other out somewhat, but since you could skip it and don't miss anything most people give it a pass and don't dwell too much on the bad stuff.
me3 is starts out shit right out of the gate tho. I sperged about it before in another post, but in short: kid dying for DRAMA and shepard characterization that goes nowhere, austin powers sexbot so edi can have a body (why not just fucking built her one), one of the laziest deus ex machinas I've ever heard of ("we suddenly found something on mars!!!"), lol rachni queen (cuz choices matter), reapers suddenly giving a shit about humans because we're so very super special like none of the other dozens or so civilizations they've culled were, taking their sweet ass time not just glassing earth and moving on, literally moving the fucking citadel there because bioware wanted "TAKE BACK EARTH" for marketing, literally have the xbox hueg deus ex machina dock with the citadel in the middle of a fucking space fight, where none of the reapers who knew what we were up to decided just to shoot at it, or simply kamikaze it. seriously, the ending was the least offensive part of mass effect 3.

people like to blame the ending, but just red/green/blue wouldn't have that effect. it starts much sooner, and just because there are some golden nuggets in that turd doesn't mean it isn't still a turd.


which I never understood, or maybe western media (which I mostly tend to ignore these days) has become so shit it simply wins by comparison. or maybe I'm not normie enough. but still, that even the ending soured them that hard is an accomplishment...

I mean, the child is idiotic. Shepard has lost so many people MUCH closer to him than some random fucking kid. It would have been better to have the squad mate Shepard sacrificed as a hallucination.

The major problem with ME3 is that all of the Reapers invaded. They're pretty much displayed as indestructible kill machines and there's really nothing the galaxy can do against them, so once they arrive, its game over. I mean we had trouble with ONE. So it kind of kills suspension of disbelief that they didn't just own the galaxy as soon as they arrived. I think that's really where ME 3 problems start. Honestly it should have been the Reaper's lighter, faster ships and armies that softened planets which arrived first. Infiltration, civil war, disorder, that whole thing.

I think the problem was they wanted a bombastic final game so they really didn't think it through. You needed the Reapers to send weaker forces that could actually be delayed or used to weaken the fighting strength of the worlds they wanted. With the Reapers coming in full force, there's really nothing at that point that can stop them from just ROFLstomping the whole galaxy. The problem was you needed to play it more like X-Com, infiltration and subversion and full civil unrest breaking out over the galaxy. You periodically go back to Earth to different locations to fight the Reaper infiltrators there, so Earth is the stage being set. Maybe you eventually find out how the Reapers are sending people, and the last mission is like the suicide mission in ME2, where you go right into Dark Space to the Reaper's mobile base of operations on a moving Mass Effect Relay. They could have went full bat-shit with it, make it so that you turn their moving 'Mass Effect' relay and used the Mass Effect to turn it into a gigantic fucking black hole in the middle of dark space that just sucks the entire Reaper Fleet in it.

You see what I did there? Use the titular title of the game and incorporate it into the finale of the plot into a batshit, but meaningful, way to wipe out the Reapers where there's no casualties? Yeah.

I think people focus on the ending because it was such a glaring, terrible literary decision that basically overshadowed everything that came before it. So in contrast to what came before it was just amplified by magnitudes and people wanted to think they got SOME value out of it. Not to mention a lot of people just constantly played multiplayer. I think 3 was the least replayed game in the series as most people just beat it once and never touched it again. I know I played the multiplayer way more.

I was a Mass Effect FANATIC back in the fucking day. I beat 1 and 2 like 5 or 6 times. I played 3 exactly one time and never again. I didn't even touch any of the DLC for it, even when I did download mods to change the ending. The destruction of that franchise is something I'll never forget or forgive. I don't even know how Bioware plans on resurrecting it after Andromeda.

I maintain that The Last Jedi was a brilliant movie and the best of the three because it crashed the Sequel Trilogy with no survivors. It literally ruined the entire franchise. Rian Johnson is an hero and I salute him.

It is easy to respect a man who crashed an entire franchise with no survivors and that its impact is still being felt even now.