Subverting Expectations: The Megathread - Or How Baby Dick Creators ‘Sort of Forgot’ What an Anti-Climax Is

Pokemonquistador2

Electric Boogaloo
kiwifarms.net
It seems like a very modern phenomenon though of online fan theories putting creators in a bind.

I remember a long time ago seeing this fan theory for LOST that was done as a comic, it was like really well done and detailed, people get pretty nuts about this stuff.

Now why creators pay attention to fan theories and don't just come up with the story they want to tell beforehand is beyond me.

Money, dear boy.... Slapping on an unecessary addendum to a finished story and/or pandering to the loudest, most supportive contingent of the fandom are good ways to extend the run of the gravy train. Making and selling a hot property is every creator's dream, as most will never know wild levels of success (and many creators are lucky if they can even make a living doing what they love most.) Who cares about the integrity of a story or the destruction of its legacy when there are second houses to buy and kids to send to college? Just hop on board the USS Sellout and ride that ship to the end of the line! Give the fans what they want! And when they scream in outrage because what they wanted was terrible, just block them on social media and call them small minded if they disagree with your creative decisions.
 

Pixy Misa

Your local evil magical girl.
kiwifarms.net
@Secret Asshole

I must say I loved your whole write up, I did learn a lot, but I do have a question. What would you say is a good way of "giving it back" without just "giving back" the predictable outcome. Say the typical knight rescues princess from dragon plot:

Fine, the knight that went on a quest to save the princess was killed by the dragon guarding her instead, you subverted my expectations. Then.... how you "give it back" without me feeling I just wasted the whole movie following a character's quest that was moot in the end?

Maybe you could bring back the knight and have him kill the dragon and rescue the princess, as expected. But that doesn't really subvert anything, does it?

It seems like a very modern phenomenon though of online fan theories putting creators in a bind.

I remember a long time ago seeing this fan theory for LOST that was done as a comic, it was like really well done and detailed, people get pretty nuts about this stuff.

Now why creators pay attention to fan theories and don't just come up with the story they want to tell beforehand is beyond me.
Now that you guys mentioned Madoka, I remember that back when it was airing, before the finale, someone was crazy enough that they did a whole chart with literally every possible outcome.

I couldn't find it anymore But this didn't stop people from being surprised or me from enjoying the ending

Why?

Because there wasn't an obvious singular path. Even if fans map every possible move and every possible outcome, if the writer is good, fans still can't possibly know which one the author will go for out of thousands.

And even then, most people aren't obsessed enough to flowchart every outcome, so even if a die-hard fan sees the ending from a mile away, most people will be genuinely surprised.

It's only an issue if people can only see one real possibility (aka predictable ending) instead of hundreds of possible outcomes
 
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Secret Asshole

Expert in things that never, ever happened
Supervisor
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
@Secret Asshole

I must say I loved your whole write up, I did learn a lot, but I do have a question. What would you say is a good way of "giving it back" without just "giving back" the predictable outcome. Say the typical knight rescues princess from dragon plot:

Fine, the knight that went on a quest to save the princess was killed by the dragon guarding her instead, you subverted my expectations. Then.... how you "give it back" without me feeling I just wasted the whole movie following a character's quest that was moot in the end?

Maybe you could bring back the knight and have him kill the dragon and rescue the princess, as expected. But that doesn't really subvert anything, does it?
Thanks!

I mean, it depends what you're writing. The Epic of Siegfried has him kill the dragon, rescue the princess only to be murdered eight years later by people he ruled over with her. Not exactly a 'happily ever after', is it? Kill a dragon then die by a knife.

Or the knight could simply be out for glory, a sadist or rescuing the princess for the monetary reward. There are all sorts of reasons, and it depends on the narrative and the way you want to tell it.

The 'Princess' might be a witch or a sorceress who deceives knights so that she can devour them, whole-heatedly. Or the 'Princess' could be a bandit queen who lures knights out and robs them.

If it HAS to end with the knight ultimately dying and not a revelation that changes the story half-way through, you could still do it:

1) The Seigfried way, the unlikely hero rescues the Princess, but maybe on the way back they get ambushed by bandits or something and he dies defending her. Something something 'humans are the real monsters'.

2) Maybe the Knight goes on a heroes journey and is ultimately defeated by the dragon, but his death and sacrifice give the Princess enough time to escape. Perhaps the Princess was a haughty noble, who, after seeing the knight's valiant sacrifice, her heart softens and she becomes a great Queen to her people.

3) Perhaps the Knight is dying of an illness and before he loses the last of his strength he wants to try doing something noble. It's more about him coming to terms with it. Or maybe the knight is an old, grizzled warrior, who doesn't want to do in a hut. He's past his prime, but still strong. It ends with the dragon and the warrior killing each other. (Or you could do what 'The Grey' did and tease the last shot of them both on the ground, with the knight's chest still rising, showing he's still breathing).

4) Hide the knight's appearance and when he slays the dragon, the Princess finds out he's this deformed monster with a heart of gold. Knowing that its law or something to marry him, he tries to get her to marry him and she just beats him to death with a rock in his sleep because she can't bear the humiliation of it. Maybe it was a whole set-up by a haughty Princess to get the 'knight' of her dreams and when he turns out to be hideous, she can't take the embarrassment and kills him. Or it turns out the knight is just as ugly on the outside as he is on the inside and demands the Princess marry him and the princess kills him because she's basically forced to do so. (Don't go the incel route plz k thx)

5) Portray the 'Knight' as a naive bumpkin. Have him survive by the sheer skin of his teeth again and again. If you make him especially lovable, make his sacrifice worth something. If you just kill this love-able character outright, you will be hated.

6) Go full on 'The Mist'. This dragon is going to destroy the Kingdom. One by one, a knight and his group of friends go against the dragon. Each of his friends die horrible deaths, and he's the last one standing. As he's about to die, a Ballista comes out of the smoke and flames and no-scope 360s that motherfucker. Turns out the Emperor wasn't sitting on his ass, he was building an army to take that fucker down. The Knight was just hungry for glory and convinced his friends to join him, only to have them all die when the Emperor's army shows up. Morale of the story is don't go glory hunting asshole.

I'm putting the mist thing in spoilers because its a de-rail and I make long posts in this thread as is:
If you don't know, 'The Mist' film has the main characters battling monsters from another dimension in a grocery store against a fundie. Man vs Man type deal. They succed and as they're riding out of town, all they get is static on the radio and fog for miles. They pull over by the road and take out a revolver. One by one, the characters in the film kill themselves. Just as the protagonist (Thomas Jane) is about to kill himself (or runs out of bullets, I forget which), the military shows up and just fucking murks all the monsters. Turns out they've got this all under control and Thomas Jane's family and friends killed themselves for no reason. The movie ends with the military cleaning house and him screaming. Depending on who you ask, this works or it doesn't. I'm on the fence, for one, it is BALLSY AS FUCK and betrays all tropes like 'the military insta loses', secondly, the protagonist of the film does survive. So it doesn't kill off everyone. However, holy shit is it downer as fuck and comes out of nowhere. I didn't include it, because it subverts expectations, but its kind of incomprehensible. It doesn't render everything that came before it useless, since the protagonist survived, but kind of like...I don't know.

I think it would have been more effective if he ran out of bullets and walked for days and days, expecting to just die, but comes across a military quarantine zone, saying that they're fighting back bit by bit and everything is under control. The way the movie does it is like all the characters kill themselves and literally 30 seconds later a military convoy comes out of nowhere. So it would have been more effective if it were just Thomas Jane wandering in the mist for days before he finds out. Not like, 30 seconds after everyone he loves just shot themselves.

7) Make the knight a scumbag piece of shit who just wants to fuck the princess. Maybe a wanted criminal or even a bandit. But as he faces down the dragon, he sees the horror of the creature in comparison to everything he's done. And that in true Lovecraftian fashion, he's nothing compared to the horrors of the universe. Make him have a change of heart or be so feared and struck by this inhuman creature that he feels he has no choice but to sacrifice his life so the Princess may live. But then it turns out this was a way of executing all the assholes in the Kingdom, so his realization is for nothing. TRIPLE COMBO SUBVERSION (I did that to be cheeky. Seriously, don't do this unless you want him to remain a complete sociopath and your audience is horrified about what he's going to do to that Princess. Only do what I said if you have an afterward saying that a single valiant act cannot make up for a lifetime of evil or something along those lines. You could make the triple subversion combo work. Like one good deed doesn't clear you of a lifetime of evil. Harsh)

8 ) As above, but except a wanted criminal, the Knight is a misogynistic asshole of the worst kind. A sadist and a rapist. Strong, he has a weak minded squire who feels he can't do anything but his bidding. They go on a horrible journey, the audience dragged through this piece of shit's 'adventures'. Then he slays the dragon. As he's about to do horrible shit to the Princess, his squire gets the courage and runs him the fuck through. However, even though this guy was a sadistic piece of shit, the Squire, a peasant, just killed a noble 'hero'. Knowing the fate of the Princess if she runs away with him, what they'll do to his family, and the severe guilt of just letting this asshole do what he wanted, he kills himself, falling on his former master's sword. The knight is remembered as a hero and the squire is remembered as a coward who wanted to steal his glory. Sad End.

9) The Knight gets horrible mauled and appears to die, and the dragon is about to eat the Princess, but the knight was only passed out and with his dying breath he stabs the dragon through the eye and kills it and they both die. Princess saved, knight dead. Honor level 1000%.

10) The Knight is killed by the dragon, but his soul is so strong for vengeance he reanimates and kills the dragon. However, his rage was so strong, it left him cursed to wander the Earth forever, killing every dragon until they're all extinct. Do this if you want a sequel.

(All these examples are my copyright #DoNotSteal)

So even with that simple set-up, I came up with...what, 10 examples of how you could turn the story on its head if you need the knight to die at the end. If the knight doesn't have to die, I offered up two examples where you could subvert this story early or half-way through to make it something completely unexpected.

So when I say 'give back' to the audience, I mean, don't waste their time. You cannot let his death be for nothing. It HAS to be for something. If a character's death is 'this will piss my audience off, he is popular and this will shock them' its not a good fucking reason. Characters are your vehicles for the themes and metaphors for your story. So if you kill a character off pointlessly to subvert expectations, guess what, you just killed your story.

My thing is this: You NEVER go into a story expecting to subvert expectations. You plan it out and let it go where it goes automatically. You can start out by subverting themes or tropes of a genre and go from there, but to subvert your own story when it isn't planned is just going to end in tears and ruination.

I mean, if you're forcing me to the strict guidelines and beats of 'dragon saving the princess', maybe half those would work. The point is, you have to give something back. And you do that through the knights death. Whether the death has some meaning, allows the Princess to be a great queen or its one last futile quest of an old warrior who doesn't want to die in bed, it has to connect.

You just can't go 'lol and the knight got insta melted by the dragon and then the dragon ate the princess, the end, fuck you'. There's no point to that story. Ok, great. You 'subverted' expectations. That's like an action hero going into the room for a big sequence and just getting fucking shot in the face before it starts (This has been done, but mostly for comedic effect and not to the protagonist). Anyone can do this. How you do it, why you do it and what it means are the critical points. And always, ALWAYS plan. Don't do something as complex as subverting expectations because you think it would be 'cool'. Think of how the narrative would benefit, what thematic elements would carry over and does it render the entire story pointless.

On that note, some subversion do render entire stories pointless. On this note, those stories can go fuck themselves in the asshole. Like 'Everybody loses! The heroes lose! The villains lose! The audience loses!' Like what the fuck is the point, you just wasted hours of my fucking time. Unless its a time travel thing. That sort of shit only works on short stories. And sometimes not even then.

So my point is you can subvert genres and tropes, you just have to be very thoughtful and careful at how you do it. If you're aiming to write a pop novel, keep your audience in mind. If you're just saying 'fuck everyone I write for myself' then be sure to keep your themes, metaphors and motifs in line. Otherwise what you just did will reduce your work to a flaming pile of shit.
 
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Pixy Misa

Your local evil magical girl.
kiwifarms.net
So my point is you can subvert genres and tropes, you just have to be very thoughtful and careful at how you do it. If you're aiming to write a pop novel, keep your audience in mind. If you're just saying 'fuck everyone I write for myself' then be sure to keep your themes, metaphors and motifs in line. Otherwise what you just did will reduce your work to a flaming pile of shit.

Thank you for taking the time of writing such an inisighful post, as an aspiring writer and storyteller, You definitively made me learn something today.
 
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Secret Asshole

Expert in things that never, ever happened
Supervisor
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Thank you for taking the time of writing such an inisighful post, as an aspiring writer and storyteller, You definitively made me learn something today.
No problem, I'm glad my autistic screeds were of value.

Another thing about creatives who subvert expectations: They typically are egotists who don't have editors or fellow writers to bounce ideas off of. This is one of the biggest mistakes you can make. A lot of writers don't like editors, but a good editor can make an ok work great. They can keep a writer on track. Same with bouncing ideas off other writers.

Vince Gilligan is praised as a genius for 'Breaking Bad' and he is, but he had an entire creative team and a writer's room who he treated equally. When they said some of his ideas were re.tarded, he listened. That's why BB is so amazing. You have all these great writers and a lead who is willing to take their ideas and advice.
 

Goodbye Horses

Would you fuck me? I'd fuck me. I'd fuck me hard.
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Vince Gilligan is praised as a genius for 'Breaking Bad' and he is, but he had an entire creative team and a writer's room who he treated equally. When they said some of his ideas were re.tarded, he listened. That's why BB is so amazing. You have all these great writers and a lead who is willing to take their ideas and advice.
Kurt Sutter is a good example of the exact opposite of this. He did some really great work on The Shield, but as soon as he didn't have to answer to Shawn Ryan and the network started letting him have his own way due to the early success of Sons of Anarchy his output went to absolute shit, to the point that he's just been fired from his own show.
 

Pokemonquistador2

Electric Boogaloo
kiwifarms.net
Thanks!

I mean, it depends what you're writing. The Epic of Siegfried has him kill the dragon, rescue the princess only to be murdered eight years later by people he ruled over with her. Not exactly a 'happily ever after', is it? Kill a dragon then die by a knife.

Or the knight could simply be out for glory, a sadist or rescuing the princess for the monetary reward. There are all sorts of reasons, and it depends on the narrative and the way you want to tell it.

The 'Princess' might be a witch or a sorceress who deceives knights so that she can devour them, whole-heatedly. Or the 'Princess' could be a bandit queen who lures knights out and robs them.

If it HAS to end with the knight ultimately dying and not a revelation that changes the story half-way through, you could still do it:

1) The Seigfried way, the unlikely hero rescues the Princess, but maybe on the way back they get ambushed by bandits or something and he dies defending her. Something something 'humans are the real monsters'.

2) Maybe the Knight goes on a heroes journey and is ultimately defeated by the dragon, but his death and sacrifice give the Princess enough time to escape. Perhaps the Princess was a haughty noble, who, after seeing the knight's valiant sacrifice, her heart softens and she becomes a great Queen to her people.

3) Perhaps the Knight is dying of an illness and before he loses the last of his strength he wants to try doing something noble. It's more about him coming to terms with it. Or maybe the knight is an old, grizzled warrior, who doesn't want to do in a hut. He's past his prime, but still strong. It ends with the dragon and the warrior killing each other. (Or you could do what 'The Grey' did and tease the last shot of them both on the ground, with the knight's chest still rising, showing he's still breathing).

4) Hide the knight's appearance and when he slays the dragon, the Princess finds out he's this deformed monster with a heart of gold. Knowing that its law or something to marry him, he tries to get her to marry him and she just beats him to death with a rock in his sleep because she can't bear the humiliation of it. Maybe it was a whole set-up by a haughty Princess to get the 'knight' of her dreams and when he turns out to be hideous, she can't take the embarrassment and kills him. Or it turns out the knight is just as ugly on the outside as he is on the inside and demands the Princess marry him and the princess kills him because she's basically forced to do so. (Don't go the incel route plz k thx)

5) Portray the 'Knight' as a naive bumpkin. Have him survive by the sheer skin of his teeth again and again. If you make him especially lovable, make his sacrifice worth something. If you just kill this love-able character outright, you will be hated.

6) Go full on 'The Mist'. This dragon is going to destroy the Kingdom. One by one, a knight and his group of friends go against the dragon. Each of his friends die horrible deaths, and he's the last one standing. As he's about to die, a Ballista comes out of the smoke and flames and no-scope 360s that motherfucker. Turns out the Emperor wasn't sitting on his ass, he was building an army to take that fucker down. The Knight was just hungry for glory and convinced his friends to join him, only to have them all die when the Emperor's army shows up. Morale of the story is don't go glory hunting asshole.

I'm putting the mist thing in spoilers because its a de-rail and I make long posts in this thread as is:
If you don't know, 'The Mist' film has the main characters battling monsters from another dimension in a grocery store against a fundie. Man vs Man type deal. They succed and as they're riding out of town, all they get is static on the radio and fog for miles. They pull over by the road and take out a revolver. One by one, the characters in the film kill themselves. Just as the protagonist (Thomas Jane) is about to kill himself (or runs out of bullets, I forget which), the military shows up and just fucking murks all the monsters. Turns out they've got this all under control and Thomas Jane's family and friends killed themselves for no reason. The movie ends with the military cleaning house and him screaming. Depending on who you ask, this works or it doesn't. I'm on the fence, for one, it is BALLSY AS FUCK and betrays all tropes like 'the military insta loses', secondly, the protagonist of the film does survive. So it doesn't kill off everyone. However, holy shit is it downer as fuck and comes out of nowhere. I didn't include it, because it subverts expectations, but its kind of incomprehensible. It doesn't render everything that came before it useless, since the protagonist survived, but kind of like...I don't know.

I think it would have been more effective if he ran out of bullets and walked for days and days, expecting to just die, but comes across a military quarantine zone, saying that they're fighting back bit by bit and everything is under control. The way the movie does it is like all the characters kill themselves and literally 30 seconds later a military convoy comes out of nowhere. So it would have been more effective if it were just Thomas Jane wandering in the mist for days before he finds out. Not like, 30 seconds after everyone he loves just shot themselves.

7) Make the knight a scumbag piece of shit who just wants to fuck the princess. Maybe a wanted criminal or even a bandit. But as he faces down the dragon, he sees the horror of the creature in comparison to everything he's done. And that in true Lovecraftian fashion, he's nothing compared to the horrors of the universe. Make him have a change of heart or be so feared and struck by this inhuman creature that he feels he has no choice but to sacrifice his life so the Princess may live. But then it turns out this was a way of executing all the assholes in the Kingdom, so his realization is for nothing. TRIPLE COMBO SUBVERSION (I did that to be cheeky. Seriously, don't do this unless you want him to remain a complete sociopath and your audience is horrified about what he's going to do to that Princess. Only do what I said if you have an afterward saying that a single valiant act cannot make up for a lifetime of evil or something along those lines. You could make the triple subversion combo work. Like one good deed doesn't clear you of a lifetime of evil. Harsh)

8 ) As above, but except a wanted criminal, the Knight is a misogynistic asshole of the worst kind. A sadist and a rapist. Strong, he has a weak minded squire who feels he can't do anything but his bidding. They go on a horrible journey, the audience dragged through this piece of shit's 'adventures'. Then he slays the dragon. As he's about to do horrible shit to the Princess, his squire gets the courage and runs him the fuck through. However, even though this guy was a sadistic piece of shit, the Squire, a peasant, just killed a noble 'hero'. Knowing the fate of the Princess if she runs away with him, what they'll do to his family, and the severe guilt of just letting this asshole do what he wanted, he kills himself, falling on his former master's sword. The knight is remembered as a hero and the squire is remembered as a coward who wanted to steal his glory. Sad End.

9) The Knight gets horrible mauled and appears to die, and the dragon is about to eat the Princess, but the knight was only passed out and with his dying breath he stabs the dragon through the eye and kills it and they both die. Princess saved, knight dead. Honor level 1000%.

10) The Knight is killed by the dragon, but his soul is so strong for vengeance he reanimates and kills the dragon. However, his rage was so strong, it left him cursed to wander the Earth forever, killing every dragon until they're all extinct. Do this if you want a sequel.

(All these examples are my copyright #DoNotSteal)

So even with that simple set-up, I came up with...what, 10 examples of how you could turn the story on its head if you need the knight to die at the end. If the knight doesn't have to die, I offered up two examples where you could subvert this story early or half-way through to make it something completely unexpected.

So when I say 'give back' to the audience, I mean, don't waste their time. You cannot let his death be for nothing. It HAS to be for something. If a character's death is 'this will piss my audience off, he is popular and this will shock them' its not a good fucking reason. Characters are your vehicles for the themes and metaphors for your story. So if you kill a character off pointlessly to subvert expectations, guess what, you just killed your story.

My thing is this: You NEVER go into a story expecting to subvert expectations. You plan it out and let it go where it goes automatically. You can start out by subverting themes or tropes of a genre and go from there, but to subvert your own story when it isn't planned is just going to end in tears and ruination.

I mean, if you're forcing me to the strict guidelines and beats of 'dragon saving the princess', maybe half those would work. The point is, you have to give something back. And you do that through the knights death. Whether the death has some meaning, allows the Princess to be a great queen or its one last futile quest of an old warrior who doesn't want to die in bed, it has to connect.

You just can't go 'lol and the knight got insta melted by the dragon and then the dragon ate the princess, the end, fuck you'. There's no point to that story. Ok, great. You 'subverted' expectations. That's like an action hero going into the room for a big sequence and just getting fucking shot in the face before it starts (This has been done, but mostly for comedic effect and not to the protagonist). Anyone can do this. How you do it, why you do it and what it means are the critical points. And always, ALWAYS plan. Don't do something as complex as subverting expectations because you think it would be 'cool'. Think of how the narrative would benefit, what thematic elements would carry over and does it render the entire story pointless.

On that note, some subversion do render entire stories pointless. On this note, those stories can go fuck themselves in the asshole. Like 'Everybody loses! The heroes lose! The villains lose! The audience loses!' Like what the fuck is the point, you just wasted hours of my fucking time. Unless its a time travel thing. That sort of shit only works on short stories. And sometimes not even then.

So my point is you can subvert genres and tropes, you just have to be very thoughtful and careful at how you do it. If you're aiming to write a pop novel, keep your audience in mind. If you're just saying 'fuck everyone I write for myself' then be sure to keep your themes, metaphors and motifs in line. Otherwise what you just did will reduce your work to a flaming pile of shit.

I read a storybook as a child that had a dragon as the hero, and he went off to rescue a princess that had been kidnapped by a black knight (who had also stolen all of the king's gold.) It turns out the princess was ugly, she had fallen in love with the black knight and wanted to stay with him, and all of the gold that the black knight had stolen was fake. But even though it was a bit of a shaggy dog ending, everyone was happy in the end (no one got killed,) and the moral of the story basically was "Don't assume everything you see is the way it appears to be."
 
I must say I loved your whole write up, I did learn a lot, but I do have a question. What would you say is a good way of "giving it back" without just "giving back" the predictable outcome. Say the typical knight rescues princess from dragon plot:

Fine, the knight that went on a quest to save the princess was killed by the dragon guarding her instead, you subverted my expectations. Then.... how you "give it back" without me feeling I just wasted the whole movie following a character's quest that was moot in the end?

Maybe you could bring back the knight and have him kill the dragon and rescue the princess, as expected. But that doesn't really subvert anything, does it?
I know you pointed this to someone else, but I think I can give a short and sweet answer. To Parapharse Penn Teller.

"The Secret to being a magician is convincing your audience who know that 2 + 2 = 4 is really 2 + 2 = 5...then revealing to them that 2 + 2 = 4" it is a good summary how to do twists and subvert expectations.

By the way, one series that people forget that did that whole "BIG MYSTERY!!! of the season" tm that always tried to do some stupid ass plot twist for it was Heroes.
 
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Reactions: Pixy Misa
"Alright guys. Everything's going great. It's time for us to write the final climactic season of WokeShit."
"But-"
"Yes?"
"Well, I-I thought that ratings were way down since we replaced every character with a disabled black woman and that's why we're getting cancelled next season?"
"What did I fucking tell you about negativity in the writers room, Kevin?"
"Well it's just-"
"Somebody call security and get this asshole out of here. Now, everything is going great. It's time for the final climactic season. We need to tie up all our loose ends and give them a twist that'll really surprise them. I want Game of Thrones, but better. Any ideas?"
*silence*
"Nothing? Ok, ok. We've spent the past 5 years planting plot seeds. Let's list them all out and see what we've got."
"Well, we made Adam's body go missing for no discernible reason after we killed him off for being a white male."
"Good! Good, that's good. Yes, this is gonna be great. What else do we have?"
"Oh! We put 'Completely Incompetent Chucklefucks' on a bunch of random props in the background."
"Yeah, yeah, that was a good one. I think that was one of mine wasn't it"
"Actually it wa-"
"Yeah, yeah, it was one of mine. Really good. Any more?"
"We had that guy appear at the end of the first series and say some incomprehensible shit."
"So we did. So we did. Does anyone remember what he said?"
"Err, no gimme a second and I'll go look it up."
"We haven't got time for shit like that Carol! I bet the audience don't remember either, we'll just roll with it. Now, what does all this add up to?"
*silence*
"Shit, that's ok. Genius takes time. I'll cut up another line while you guys have a think about where we're gonna take this. Remember I want shocking and subversive. Go."
*chop chop chop SNOOOOOORT*
"Ahhh, that's better. Now, what do we have?"
"I read this really great theory online that-"
"Online? Huh? You read it online? You think our fans don't have the fucking internet Carol? Do you want to end up like Kevin? Well? Do you? Huh? Yeah, yeah, that's what I thought. We need something that'll really surprise them."
"There were a lot of theories on there. Everything that doesn't suck balls has kinda already been thought of."
"That's it!"
"No, I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No negativity in-"
"Shut up Carol. You're a fucking genius! We just need to do something that sucks total balls. That way nobody will see it coming. God, I'm good."
"Errrm, I mean, I suppose we could have it turn out that they were all patients in a mental asylum and it was all just a dream."
"That idea sucks total balls."
"Well, maybe we could-"
"No. I love it. They'll never see it coming. Let's do it."
Suddenly Kevin awoke and instinctively struggled against his straight jacket as the last episode of WokeShit wound to an unsatisfying conclusion on the TV screen in front of him.
 

Dang Woodchucks!

Whatamark@noneyabusiness.org
kiwifarms.net
More >weebshit but bear with me.

Someone who "subverted expectations" like a stupid motherfucker was Masashi Kishimoto, in the albatross he's going to wear around his neck until the day he dies, aka Naruto.

Now, I was a fan of Naruto until shortly after the timeskip, and I was seriously straining myself even back then, so for the benefit of those that can't be bothered to give a shit, I will TL;DR as much of the core conflict as I can. This leaves out a lot of additional details about characters getting derailed and pretty much ritually sacrificed to the plot. Also, spoilers will not be covered, because the fact a lot of these are only spoilers to the audience for a big fat chunk of the narrative only highlights how fucking exceptional everyone in the story is.

Naruto is the son of the 4th Hoekage, but at the start of the series, however, no one, save a couple of people (one his ninja academy homeroom teacher, the other the village chief and 3rd hoekage) seems to care or give two shits about him either way. He lives as an orphan, making an ass of himself for attention, he can't even make a clone/double/decoy of himself to save his life. However, due to plot convenience hard work, determination and sheer pig-headed ness, he grinds into a respectable Genin. Cool so far.

As we progress, we find certain details about him; he has a demon fox kaiju inside of him, he also looks like a xerox of his dad (no one calls attention to this or finds it weird) his sheer lovability despite constantly falling into "shonen hero iz dumb" shenanigans slowly get him to win over people who could barely stand his existence at the beginning, and it helps that what he lacks in natural skill, he makes up in improvisation, something that saves his entire team at least once a while (best seen in what I consider the one must see arc in the whole series, the Zabuza and Haku arc).

But alas, it wasn't meant to be, and the biggest red flag in hindsight hapoens in the stock tournament arc; here, once again, Naruto's strengths shine through despite both his opponents being more experienced and skilled almost as if the plot demanded he won or something but it's his second opponent, Neji, that shines a spotlight on what would become the serie's implosion.

Due to Neji's backstory, he is 100% convinced the only way you achieve anything worthwhile in life is because of your pedigree; ultimately hard work and effort are completely meaningless and a waste of time. If you're not at the top 1%, born into the main branch of a big ninja family, all your talent won't be enough, and you will only go down kicking and screaming into obscurity.

Of course, Naruto, the abject failure of the town grasps victory from the jaws of defeat, and from then on, Neji shuts the fuck up and accepts his lot in life, only having one more meaningful fight outside any the filler arcs that means anything.

Now, we get to the good stuff and focusing on Naruto alone, we go test Neji's hypothesis:

Naruto is the son of the 4th Hoekage, often considered one of the top ninjas ever.

His demon kaiju? Supplies him with infinite chakra

His mom? She's from one of the two biggest ninja families in the setting, directly related to the First and Second Hokages, Tsunade (the Fifth Hokage) and Pain (One of the most broken "big bads" in the series)

He gets hand picked by Jiraya ad personally trained by him to control his kaiju fursona and unlimited chakra, taught to access Super Saiyan God Sage Mode, among other stuff.

BTW Jiraya? Was the student of the Third Hokage AND teacher to Naruto's Father (who was teacher to Naruto's team leader/teacher as well)

During Ninja World War 3, Ninja Moon Jesus shows up, tells Naruto he's the reincarnation of one of his sons, gives him Yang Release, half his Jesus Chakra and the ability to go further beyond Ninja God Super Saiyan, and with his best friend beats the Big Bad, that replaced the former big bad, before being replaced by the true, Bigger Big Bad, who happens to be Ninja Moon Jesus' psycho mother.

... done processing all that?

Turns out the protagonist is related to every plot important character there is to be in the convoluted and fucked up lore of the series. Huh.

Guess Neji was right. :story:
 
More >weebshit but bear with me.

Someone who "subverted expectations" like a stupid motherfucker was Masashi Kishimoto, in the albatross he's going to wear around his neck until the day he dies, aka Naruto.

Now, I was a fan of Naruto until shortly after the timeskip, and I was seriously straining myself even back then, so for the benefit of those that can't be bothered to give a shit, I will TL;DR as much of the core conflict as I can. This leaves out a lot of additional details about characters getting derailed and pretty much ritually sacrificed to the plot. Also, spoilers will not be covered, because the fact a lot of these are only spoilers to the audience for a big fat chunk of the narrative only highlights how fucking exceptional everyone in the story is.

Naruto is the son of the 4th Hoekage, but at the start of the series, however, no one, save a couple of people (one his ninja academy homeroom teacher, the other the village chief and 3rd hoekage) seems to care or give two shits about him either way. He lives as an orphan, making an ass of himself for attention, he can't even make a clone/double/decoy of himself to save his life. However, due to plot convenience hard work, determination and sheer pig-headed ness, he grinds into a respectable Genin. Cool so far.

As we progress, we find certain details about him; he has a demon fox kaiju inside of him, he also looks like a xerox of his dad (no one calls attention to this or finds it weird) his sheer lovability despite constantly falling into "shonen hero iz dumb" shenanigans slowly get him to win over people who could barely stand his existence at the beginning, and it helps that what he lacks in natural skill, he makes up in improvisation, something that saves his entire team at least once a while (best seen in what I consider the one must see arc in the whole series, the Zabuza and Haku arc).

But alas, it wasn't meant to be, and the biggest red flag in hindsight hapoens in the stock tournament arc; here, once again, Naruto's strengths shine through despite both his opponents being more experienced and skilled almost as if the plot demanded he won or something but it's his second opponent, Neji, that shines a spotlight on what would become the serie's implosion.

Due to Neji's backstory, he is 100% convinced the only way you achieve anything worthwhile in life is because of your pedigree; ultimately hard work and effort are completely meaningless and a waste of time. If you're not at the top 1%, born into the main branch of a big ninja family, all your talent won't be enough, and you will only go down kicking and screaming into obscurity.

Of course, Naruto, the abject failure of the town grasps victory from the jaws of defeat, and from then on, Neji shuts the fuck up and accepts his lot in life, only having one more meaningful fight outside any the filler arcs that means anything.

Now, we get to the good stuff and focusing on Naruto alone, we go test Neji's hypothesis:

Naruto is the son of the 4th Hoekage, often considered one of the top ninjas ever.

His demon kaiju? Supplies him with infinite chakra

His mom? She's from one of the two biggest ninja families in the setting, directly related to the First and Second Hokages, Tsunade (the Fifth Hokage) and Pain (One of the most broken "big bads" in the series)

He gets hand picked by Jiraya ad personally trained by him to control his kaiju fursona and unlimited chakra, taught to access Super Saiyan God Sage Mode, among other stuff.

BTW Jiraya? Was the student of the Third Hokage AND teacher to Naruto's Father (who was teacher to Naruto's team leader/teacher as well)

During Ninja World War 3, Ninja Moon Jesus shows up, tells Naruto he's the reincarnation of one of his sons, gives him Yang Release, half his Jesus Chakra and the ability to go further beyond Ninja God Super Saiyan, and with his best friend beats the Big Bad, that replaced the former big bad, before being replaced by the true, Bigger Big Bad, who happens to be Ninja Moon Jesus' psycho mother.

... done processing all that?

Turns out the protagonist is related to every plot important character there is to be in the convoluted and fucked up lore of the series. Huh.

Guess Neji was right. :story:
It gets worse too.

Remember Rock Lee? Remember how he trained super hard to become a strong Ninja because "Hard work is the best thing ever."

How many fights did he actually win over the series?
 

JuanButNotForgotten

Friendly Mexican Ghost
kiwifarms.net
Star Wars set up J.J. Abrahms infamous mystery boxes, only for basically every single plot strand to be completely nullified by Rain Johnson who somehow thought this was good storytelling by delivering a movie that goes nowhere and accomplishes nothing. Ok? Are you a brain-dead faggot? What were you hoping to accomplish? Your audience is paying you billions, you’re not an indie creator anymore fuckwit. I guess by ignoring every single mystery set-up by your predecessor or making their outcomes massively mediocre, disrespect characters so they no longer are in any way recognizable and have no characterization or real narrative you’ll be thought of as a genius. No wait, you killed the IP. Oh well.
Ehm, no, I explained why in Unpopular opinions about movies. People like to thread on The Last Jedi and for good reason, but they fail to see that almost all the problems of TLJ grow from TFA. Also, Rise of Rey Sue showed that Abrams wouldn't do a much better job.

Luke is a bitter hopeless boomer? Welp, him leaving his sister, best friend and the Republic had been established in TFA. For this to happen he had to do something really despicable, like trying to kill his nephew or fuck his sister, so I don't think Jar Jar would have done it better. Imagine Rey Sue going to his island, giving him sword and telling to save the galaxy and he is like "ah, FINE!". Is it better that shit from TLJ? I don't think so. And in the 9th he just throws "ah, I was wrong, take my everything", which is... Fuck you, Abrams.

Kylo is shitty antagonist? Well, shit, was he good in TFA? Had he even a shred of motivation or origin for his betrayal? Nope, he is just evil, because he wants to be evil. Or because his grandfather was evil (not originally and then he killed Emperor, but who cares, we are rippin off original trilogy, not prequels) And kills Han because he thinks he isn't evil enough... Just to ask forgiveness from his hallucination in the end, because his mother told him... And then die. Good job, JJ.

Rey is shitty protagonist? Well, yeah, she is aimless, stupid and has no character. Like in TFA. Also, she is as Sue as she has been there, maybe even not as much. In TLJ she only shoots three T-fighters with one shot, moves rocks without training and beats Luke's old ass. In TFA she masters EVERYTHING on the fly, from piloting ships and shooting to mind tricks and fencing. And JJ fixed this by turning her into fucking avatar of the Force, who can pull transport ships and heal any wounds, which is not Sue at all.

Complete flush of Snoke? Well, yeah, but keep in mind that even Abrams didn't have any idea what to do after TFA, so I doubt Johnson knew either. And in 9th he is a fucking clone of Palpatine. Who survived being blown up two times and "somehow is back"(direct quote from that garbage). Still think that JJ would've done better job?

Old characters turned into complete shit? Well, Luke left his family and comrades to die, his sister has never tried to reason with her son and Han just ran away to be smuggler again, nothing said.

First order is too powerful? Well, in TFA he managed to build a weapon much stronger than Death Star in a span of time that it took a whole fucking Empire to build said Death Star. This bullshit is topped in 9th episode with the star fleet than can destroy planets, but doesn't know where up is.

And if you think, that new trilogy is shit only because of Abrams and Johnson, look at other media in the franchise since it has been devoured by Mouse, especially Soy Low. This shit has very little to do with someone's expectations and subversion, it was soulless from the very beginning.
 
Last edited:

Pokemonquistador2

Electric Boogaloo
kiwifarms.net
More >weebshit but bear with me.

Someone who "subverted expectations" like a stupid motherfucker was Masashi Kishimoto, in the albatross he's going to wear around his neck until the day he dies, aka Naruto.

Now, I was a fan of Naruto until shortly after the timeskip, and I was seriously straining myself even back then, so for the benefit of those that can't be bothered to give a shit, I will TL;DR as much of the core conflict as I can. This leaves out a lot of additional details about characters getting derailed and pretty much ritually sacrificed to the plot. Also, spoilers will not be covered, because the fact a lot of these are only spoilers to the audience for a big fat chunk of the narrative only highlights how fucking exceptional everyone in the story is.

Naruto is the son of the 4th Hoekage, but at the start of the series, however, no one, save a couple of people (one his ninja academy homeroom teacher, the other the village chief and 3rd hoekage) seems to care or give two shits about him either way. He lives as an orphan, making an ass of himself for attention, he can't even make a clone/double/decoy of himself to save his life. However, due to plot convenience hard work, determination and sheer pig-headed ness, he grinds into a respectable Genin. Cool so far.

As we progress, we find certain details about him; he has a demon fox kaiju inside of him, he also looks like a xerox of his dad (no one calls attention to this or finds it weird) his sheer lovability despite constantly falling into "shonen hero iz dumb" shenanigans slowly get him to win over people who could barely stand his existence at the beginning, and it helps that what he lacks in natural skill, he makes up in improvisation, something that saves his entire team at least once a while (best seen in what I consider the one must see arc in the whole series, the Zabuza and Haku arc).

But alas, it wasn't meant to be, and the biggest red flag in hindsight hapoens in the stock tournament arc; here, once again, Naruto's strengths shine through despite both his opponents being more experienced and skilled almost as if the plot demanded he won or something but it's his second opponent, Neji, that shines a spotlight on what would become the serie's implosion.

Due to Neji's backstory, he is 100% convinced the only way you achieve anything worthwhile in life is because of your pedigree; ultimately hard work and effort are completely meaningless and a waste of time. If you're not at the top 1%, born into the main branch of a big ninja family, all your talent won't be enough, and you will only go down kicking and screaming into obscurity.

Of course, Naruto, the abject failure of the town grasps victory from the jaws of defeat, and from then on, Neji shuts the fuck up and accepts his lot in life, only having one more meaningful fight outside any the filler arcs that means anything.

Now, we get to the good stuff and focusing on Naruto alone, we go test Neji's hypothesis:

Naruto is the son of the 4th Hoekage, often considered one of the top ninjas ever.

His demon kaiju? Supplies him with infinite chakra

His mom? She's from one of the two biggest ninja families in the setting, directly related to the First and Second Hokages, Tsunade (the Fifth Hokage) and Pain (One of the most broken "big bads" in the series)

He gets hand picked by Jiraya ad personally trained by him to control his kaiju fursona and unlimited chakra, taught to access Super Saiyan God Sage Mode, among other stuff.

BTW Jiraya? Was the student of the Third Hokage AND teacher to Naruto's Father (who was teacher to Naruto's team leader/teacher as well)

During Ninja World War 3, Ninja Moon Jesus shows up, tells Naruto he's the reincarnation of one of his sons, gives him Yang Release, half his Jesus Chakra and the ability to go further beyond Ninja God Super Saiyan, and with his best friend beats the Big Bad, that replaced the former big bad, before being replaced by the true, Bigger Big Bad, who happens to be Ninja Moon Jesus' psycho mother.

... done processing all that?

Turns out the protagonist is related to every plot important character there is to be in the convoluted and fucked up lore of the series. Huh.

Guess Neji was right. :story:
Plague of Gripes (when he wasn't drawing furry porn) made a pretty good vid about this:


I always thought of Naruto as an ugly duckling story - the kid who gets shit on the most turns out to be the greatest ninja of all - and once I saw Naruto's resemblance to the 4th Hokage, I knew the direction the story would go in. The reason I stopped watching the show was because not one of Naruto's classmates died during the "Rescue Sasuke" Arc, even though they all had dramatic "death" scenes that fooled you into thinking that at least one of them had died. A character death during that arc would have greatly upped the stakes and showed the audience that there were real consequences to every decision made by the heroes. But nooo. It's a rare example where "subverting expectations" involves characters living instead of dying, but it winds up sucking all the same.
 

JuanButNotForgotten

Friendly Mexican Ghost
kiwifarms.net
The reason I stopped watching the show was becaus
Boy oh boy, then that's a good thing that you stopped reading. Remember Great ninja wars? These catastrophic events with thousands of casualties? Well, something akin to that happens in the final arc of the manga and results in almost 0 fucking deaths, almost, because Neji dies for some fucking reason, Gai, who had opened all gates, which from the first time they were introduced had to kill the user with 100 percent certainty, had been saved by Naruto, even Tsunade who was fucking split in half, survived by some miracle, even Yamato, who had been imprisoned by bad guys and used for that big evil tree survived in the end. I can understand why, because end of this manga goes directly into the start of Boruto, but Jesus Christ, does it look stupid.
 

Secret Asshole

Expert in things that never, ever happened
Supervisor
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I wonder if Stone Ocean gets adapted people will think the ending is subversion done well or bad.
Stone Ocean is one where it kind of subverts you in the other direction. It makes you think its the worst ending imaginable, but its actually the happiest ending imaginable. The problem isn't that the ideas are bad. Its that the execution is FUCKING TERRIBLE.

Ok, so people who just watch Jojo or don't care, I'm going to put this into spoiler text, because the ending to Stone Ocean is Bizarre in all caps.

At the end of Stone Ocean, the ENTIRE FUCKING MAIN CAST is dead. Everybody. Jojo. Joylene, fucking everybody. Just dead. Except for one Italian Child.

The villain then initiates a 'multiverse shift, where he is literally re-creating the laws of reality. So they're in the middle of this multi-universe merge. The thing to keep in mind, the main cast died BEFORE the multi-universe merge, not in the middle of it. The main villain is chasing this Italian child around, because he still needs to murder him otherwise his plans will be ruined. The main villain is literally unbeatable, except the Italian child tricked him and lured him into a room with 100% oxygen. Since he moves so fast he inhales the 100% oxygen before he can even say 'NANI?!'

As he's helpless on the ground he begs the Italian child to let his perfect universe merge. As Italian children do, when seeing all their friends die, he graphically and mercilessly explodes the villains skull with vicious punches.

Because he dies in the MIDDLE of the Universe reset, the Universe consequently DELETES HIM FROM EXISTENCE. Because he is then deleted from existence, everything the villain had done, and more, is basically null and void. In part six, Joyelene, is set up in prison. Since the villain never existed, Joylene was never in prison. Since the villain never existed, Jojo becomes a good father since he didn't have to hunt down Stand users and shit. The thing is, literally everything is better that the villain was deleted from existence. There is no more need to go on Bizarre adventures. Joylene doesn't have a Stand and shit like that. She's also going to go get married. The only thing is, since everyone died except for the Italian child, nobody remembers the events of Stone Ocean, since the ending basically retcons the entire manga into one happy ending. Said Italian child is the only one that remembers everything and wakes up in the new universe where the beginning of part six was supposed to happen.

The problem is, well, there's a lot of fucking problems: 1) The main villian's Stand is way too complicated and I'm not even going into the soul reincarnating bullshit. Which leads to a lot of confusion. 2) Since it involves Dio's son, people were pissed Giorno wasn't around. Apparently he was in Florida visiting Disney Land or some shit when one 'GOLDEN WINDU EXPERIENCU' could have solved the whole fucking plot. 3) Jojo dies in the worst way possible, his death is shown in one panel and THIS IS THE LAST TIME YOU SEE HIM. EVER. The last shot of Jojo is his death and he is never seen in the manga AGAIN. 4) Since a little Italian child and not a Jojo beats the main villain, this has pissed people off a lot. 5) People really didn't like this as the endpoint to 30+ years of continuity 6) There's absolutely no explanation to any of this. You have to puzzle this out on your own and pretty much make up what the fuck happened because it is sure as fuck not clear

Stone Ocean is pretty much almost universally regarded as the worst part of the Jojo franchise. Which is a shame since everyone likes Joylene. I think a Stone Ocean adaption will be incredibly divisive. David Productions has been really faithful to the manga. So unless Araki goes in with 'Hol' up now', its going to end the same way, which is going to massively piss people off. It won't be an easy watch because of its piss poor execution. I don't care if you loved or hated the end of Stone Ocean, the execution of it was pure fucking trash.

I don't think it needs an anime only ending, I think it just requires a much longer one than what the manga gives for its fucking magnitude. Which is like two or three pages, its fucking insane how little epilogue is given for essentially what happens is a MULTIVERSE IMPLODING. I mean, I'm going to put money on David Productions keeping it the same. Its cheaper and they can just say 'they were following the manga'. I hope not, but anime disappoints far more often than it ever delivers.
 

linchan

kiwifarms.net
Stone Ocean is one where it kind of subverts you in the other direction. It makes you think its the worst ending imaginable, but its actually the happiest ending imaginable. The problem isn't that the ideas are bad. Its that the execution is FUCKING TERRIBLE.

Ok, so people who just watch Jojo or don't care, I'm going to put this into spoiler text, because the ending to Stone Ocean is Bizarre in all caps.

At the end of Stone Ocean, the ENTIRE FUCKING MAIN CAST is dead. Everybody. Jojo. Joylene, fucking everybody. Just dead. Except for one Italian Child.

The villain then initiates a 'multiverse shift, where he is literally re-creating the laws of reality. So they're in the middle of this multi-universe merge. The thing to keep in mind, the main cast died BEFORE the multi-universe merge, not in the middle of it. The main villain is chasing this Italian child around, because he still needs to murder him otherwise his plans will be ruined. The main villain is literally unbeatable, except the Italian child tricked him and lured him into a room with 100% oxygen. Since he moves so fast he inhales the 100% oxygen before he can even say 'NANI?!'

As he's helpless on the ground he begs the Italian child to let his perfect universe merge. As Italian children do, when seeing all their friends die, he graphically and mercilessly explodes the villains skull with vicious punches.

Because he dies in the MIDDLE of the Universe reset, the Universe consequently DELETES HIM FROM EXISTENCE. Because he is then deleted from existence, everything the villain had done, and more, is basically null and void. In part six, Joyelene, is set up in prison. Since the villain never existed, Joylene was never in prison. Since the villain never existed, Jojo becomes a good father since he didn't have to hunt down Stand users and shit. The thing is, literally everything is better that the villain was deleted from existence. There is no more need to go on Bizarre adventures. Joylene doesn't have a Stand and shit like that. She's also going to go get married. The only thing is, since everyone died except for the Italian child, nobody remembers the events of Stone Ocean, since the ending basically retcons the entire manga into one happy ending. Said Italian child is the only one that remembers everything and wakes up in the new universe where the beginning of part six was supposed to happen.

The problem is, well, there's a lot of fucking problems: 1) The main villian's Stand is way too complicated and I'm not even going into the soul reincarnating bullshit. Which leads to a lot of confusion. 2) Since it involves Dio's son, people were pissed Giorno wasn't around. Apparently he was in Florida visiting Disney Land or some shit when one 'GOLDEN WINDU EXPERIENCU' could have solved the whole fucking plot. 3) Jojo dies in the worst way possible, his death is shown in one panel and THIS IS THE LAST TIME YOU SEE HIM. EVER. The last shot of Jojo is his death and he is never seen in the manga AGAIN. 4) Since a little Italian child and not a Jojo beats the main villain, this has pissed people off a lot. 5) People really didn't like this as the endpoint to 30+ years of continuity 6) There's absolutely no explanation to any of this. You have to puzzle this out on your own and pretty much make up what the fuck happened because it is sure as fuck not clear

Stone Ocean is pretty much almost universally regarded as the worst part of the Jojo franchise. Which is a shame since everyone likes Joylene. I think a Stone Ocean adaption will be incredibly divisive. David Productions has been really faithful to the manga. So unless Araki goes in with 'Hol' up now', its going to end the same way, which is going to massively piss people off. It won't be an easy watch because of its piss poor execution. I don't care if you loved or hated the end of Stone Ocean, the execution of it was pure fucking trash.

I don't think it needs an anime only ending, I think it just requires a much longer one than what the manga gives for its fucking magnitude. Which is like two or three pages, its fucking insane how little epilogue is given for essentially what happens is a MULTIVERSE IMPLODING. I mean, I'm going to put money on David Productions keeping it the same. Its cheaper and they can just say 'they were following the manga'. I hope not, but anime disappoints far more often than it ever delivers.
If it's just execution that's the issue, then I bet DP will fix that. DP managed to make King Crimson comprehensible and interesting, so who knows how DP will pull it off. We got Fugo to cameo way later in the part for a few seconds after all.

Now if there is one drastic change I want

Have Foo Fighter show up in some form in the ending. Best girl got shafted HARD

Honestly for some reason that isn't the most whiplash I gotten from Jojo subverting expectations. Remember...
"He died of a cold"
 

Dang Woodchucks!

Whatamark@noneyabusiness.org
kiwifarms.net
If it's just execution that's the issue, then I bet DP will fix that. DP managed to make King Crimson comprehensible and interesting, so who knows how DP will pull it off. We got Fugo to cameo way later in the part for a few seconds after all.

Now if there is one drastic change I want

Have Foo Fighter show up in some form in the ending. Best girl got shafted HARD

Honestly for some reason that isn't the most whiplash I gotten from Jojo subverting expectations. Remember...
"He died of a cold"
A cold? Unless you mean somoene else, wasn't he killed by a rock?
 
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