Suicide, Death and Moralfagging - If a troon commits suicide in the woods, did they ever really exist?

[heathercho]

In light of all the moral faggotry and crying in the Zoe Quinn thread about a mentally ill man who killed himself, I want to know where the line between value of life begins and ends.

If a troon kills themselves and Kiwi Farms has a thread on them that laughs at their stupidity and tells them to drink bleach, is it a bad thing?
Is anyone responsible for their death?

VS

When Zoe stated that Alec was abusive towards her - a mentally ill person who was no doubt an asshole at times - he decided to kill himself, but suddenly that's a bad thing and Zoe should be held accountable and Alec is a poor victim who couldn't do anything about his horrible situation.

Then we have Dr "Rachel" Rhys McKinnon, publically cheering for the death of a "Terf" who has brain cancer. But if Rhys were to die, there'd be many that would certainly grave dance.

So...

Does one life have more value over the other, or do people conform morality to their confirmation bias as a means to justify grave dancing?

Why does one broken brained faggot deserve sympathy over another? Is an autist necking himself not as amusing as a troon going up like a Zippo lighter?

 

[Pargon]

If they're a furry, it's just the universe sorting itself out.

If it's anyone else, genuine tragedy.

 

[heathercho]

If they're a furry, it's just the universe sorting itself out.

If it's anyone else, genuine tragedy.

Richard Jones killing himself would be a tragedy?

 

[QU 734]

The only cow worth missing was Terry.

 

[YW 525]

In terms of cows? The cows that are actually bad people committing heinous crimes against others should definitely face justice. But most cows are weirdos with issues and not truly bad people. Those cows, the majority of them, I'd rather see find some clarity and move onto a life that people like us deem too boring to pay attention to. That seems to be the goal if you ask me.

Of course that rarely happens. And the shit with Zoe Quinn? She isn't responsible for the guy killing himself. It's definitely shitty the way she behaved toward him, even after he was likely a dick to her. But ultimately these people are supposed to be adults and two wrongs don't make a right. A lack of adherence to these simple concepts is part of what propels these individuals to cowdom in the first place.

No, she isn't responsible for the suicide. Having a heart of ice isn't a crime, it's just the compunction of the day.

 

[Pargon]

Richard Jones killing himself would be a tragedy?

Well shit here I was planning to drop a single pithy comment in lieu of having any sort of real answer but here we are.

As far as Kiwis specifically telling someone to do a flip, we gots rules here. We don't jump on a cow's social media or into their inbox and cajole them into eating a bullet because it's contrary to our mission statement. A dead cow produces no milk, simple as. If some user wants to pozload my negholep and do it they're disavowed by the rules established. Pretty simple in my eyes.

For Zoe/Alec I care only as far as whether the allegations she raised had grounds. No bearing to me on what Alec did following her bringing them up. It's supremely fucked up in either case because I think people can grow and change and improve and they should have the opportunity to do so, just like how people who do illegal shit ought to be made to atone.

That to me is where the tragedy lies. A life that ends has no more potential, and that potential is inherent in every life. So yeah, barring certain circumstances are such that no kind of life is feasible without unbearable pain (and yes, I know that's subjective and I'm therefore opening myself up to attack but this is Deep Thoughts so fire away), then suicide is a terrible thing even if the person is a big ol' cawk*.

*inb4 Hitler.

 

[NOT Sword Fighter Super]

Moralfagging is gay.

But Zoe Quinn is a total cunt.

Either way, people use tragedy and moralfagging selfishly to help further their own purposes.

 

[BoingBoingBoi]

i think it's gonna depend a lot on the circumstances. at first glance though, anonymously telling a dysfunctional degenerate menace to society of a cow to drink bleach here on kf is worlds away from zoe quinn, an "indie game dev" calling out a mentally ill dev for sexual/emotional/psychological abuse and destroying his otherwise successful career overnight.

that being said, i just think that grave dancing and encouraging suicide is morally wrong, which is why i don't do it. dont really care what others do though.

 

[AF 802]

It's a tragedy, even with genuinely horrible people. If they want to die, I guess they have every right to, but I generally have hope that some can change. Sure, some might not be able to (or never will), but at least there's someone who could support them through the mess. Even if the world sucks, there's people out there who put any negative thoughts aside and do genuinely care for others.

That kind of thinking about people "deserving it" I will never get, especially the incels that came into the Bianca Devins thread and talked about her deserving to die, for whatever reason they want to come with. If it was someone you knew and cared about that was having issues, would you want them to off themselves or get murdered?

Be happy. Don't let mean words get to you. Work with what you have, and don't be afraid to ask for help.

 

[Don Herbert]

Good people die all the time, for good, bad and no reason(s).
Feeling bad about idiots that you don't really know dying, directly or indirectly caused by their own actions, seems like a waste of time and energy to me.
Rejoicing in death is tacky but so is everything here on NZ Agr Forums. Is it really meaner than rejoicing in Chris getting tricked by the pickle man forehead girl teen idea titans again and screeching like a witch?
The pain isn't the point, per se, but it is part of it for most cows. Moralfagging about what flavor of voyeurism is morally acceptable to enjoy is extraceptional.
If they die, all the funny ends from our standpoint, and any chance of a better life on this Earth ends from theirs. It's a shame but hardly a calamity.

 

[OB 946]

Hey retard, there's a difference. We have never made public accusations that they've raped people with no evidence or proof. We have never destroyed someone's entire life by getting them fired from a company they helped found while simultaneously forcing everyone they know to cut ties with them. We've NEVER done that, and anyone that tried would be made fun of and probably Halal'd. These events aren't event remotely comparable. KF has never actually been the cause of a suicide, no matter how much people want to pretend. Zoe directly caused Alec's suicide.

 

[Exigent Circumcisions]

I'd hesitate to ever lay the blame for the suicide of an adult at anyone's feet but the decedent.

 

[IN 041]

I'm pretty sure that it was Saul Alinsky that said that a smart combatant uses their enemy's tools against them.

 

[Lemmingwise]

That was Sun Tzu. Saul said to hold them to their own (implicitly impossible) standards.

 

[Spastic Colon]

I think there is a difference in the first example. Mean words on the internet from strangers can hurt your feelings, but you can walk away from that. If they aren't waging a campaign to get you fired or showing up at your door step with torches and pitchforks, you can learn to tune them out or just walk away from social media if you have to. Having someone that you know IRL -- former lover & colleague, no less -- making public accusations of abuse on social media , turning everyone you know against you (including your own family), and getting you essentially black balled ... well, that isn't so easy to ignore. Now, is she responsible for the suicide? It depends on what you mean by "responsible". If you know someone is mentally ill and yet you still proceed to trash their life for your own personal gain, maybe you aren't legally responsible -- but ethically speaking, I think you are guilty as hell. Should she go to jail for it? Not really. Should she be given a taste of her own medicine? Absolutely. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

As for celebrating the death of someone. We're all human. Sometimes we are happy when someone shitty dies. Or if not exactly happy, at least relieved. Most people, though, are decent enough that they keep those kinds of thoughts relegated to private spaces. You don't gloat on social media or take to the streets like your team just won a playoff. You say "good riddance" when speaking in private with people you know. In public, though, you either say nothing or give some neutral "sorry for their family" line because it is just in poor taste to do otherwise, not because you are morally superior. Especially when you might hate the person, but you don't want to be a dick to their family who probably loved them in spite of the fact that they were an asshole. And sometimes you keep it to yourself simply because you don't want others to know exactly how shitty a person you really are. It can be a self-preservation strategy which people with verbal diarrhea and zero emotional intelligence (like Rhys) don't really seem to be able to grasp. Especially true if the only crime that the "bad" person committed was daring to tell the truth to a narcissist.

 

[Andrejborg]

i'd think it becomes something completely different as soon as youre working towards/creating a situation where it has a reasonable or good chance for it to succeed


tell some rando to sudoku is nothing even if he/she does it that means they were fucked in the head and just a matter of time

however spread rumors and basically grind someones entire life and everything they have to dust is aside from reason enough to declare you fucked in the head aswell definitively is a very different thing

 

[CivilianOfTheFandomWars]

I don’t like when people kill themselves, I want them to get better, but I also believe it’s their choice to make if they want to die. With that in mind, I think using the dead to boost yourself up is a wrong thing to do, no matter what side. Blaming Zoe’s allegations for it and things like it is one thing, it could shine light on a problem, but wishing her death or suffering or just a-logging is just unproductive and retarded. Saying he was a horrible person and it’s good that he’s dead is also just retarded, what does that change in the world, what are you promoting? Is it worth dragging the family into this mess for? I don’t think so, just let them mourn as they see fit.
And I do think you can say that you think something is morally wrong and still not be a moralfag. It comes down to how self-righteous you feel about it.

 

[Next Task]

We write shit about people that includes telling them to kill themselves, or wish their death - mostly in Minecraft, but sometimes in real life as well.

But we don't say it to them directly - that's very strongly discouraged. When we accuse someone of being a pedophile, a rapist or another form of criminal, it's mostly (not always, sadly) with evidence to support it. And again, we don't accuse them in any forum more public than the Farms, which you have to actively go to, and we aren't going to contact anyone's boss, friends, co-workers or family in an attempt to have them suffer personal consequences. Usually if someone does that sort of thing and comes here to brag about it, they get mocked, banned, and/or halal'd. About the most that users can get away with is reporting their Twitter accounts and a little publicising of any particularly blatant hypocrisy, especially if it's criminal, and even those can get you mocked and downvoted.

So we don't say it to their face, we don't say it to the people in their life, and they have to come to us to see what shit we're saying. The Tyler, the Creator tweet about cyberbullying applies to the Farms, because you can just turn off the computer and walk away from what we put here; it doesn't apply to cancel culture and the way that, for this example Zoe Quinn made allegations about Alec Holowka that seem very likely to have been highly exaggerated, entirely for personal gain, designed to get him harassed and abandoned by his friends, peers and community, all with a blatant disregard for the negative consequences.

Did she kill him? I don't think so. Did she act like a cunt? Certainly. There's some real anger in her thread, and some hyperbolic yet earnest wishes of harm upon her, but while she certainly caused him harm, it was those who didn't wish to hear his version of events and immediately distanced themselves who hurt him more. Quinn struck the match, they made sure the fuse was burning quickly.

But of course we regard different deaths as having different significance. Grave dancing is often tacky, but it isn't a pure moral good or bad. There's certainly people in this world who I think are actively making it a worse place, whether on a small or large scale, and their deaths will be welcomed. But again, I'd post about it here, a forum which, while public, you still have to hunt for. I wouldn't put it on Twitter, I certainly wouldn't send celebratory messages to their loved ones (if any), and I wouldn't, while they're alive, make sure they know now that I think their death would improve the world directly.

All lives do not have equal value. Simple fact. Do lives have inherent value? That's a matter of opinion. But to compare your two examples, Chloe Sagal killed herself after a long history of scamming, violent mental illness, aggression and having been kicked out of every community she was part of. She had one mildly promising game to her credit but was much more known for her vicious dramamongering and ability to make people feel unsafe, all which were well-documented. Her death was then used by people, mostly troons who she had fought with, to then try and attack the Farms. Alec Holowka killed himself after a long history of mental illness, reputed to be emotionally abusive but never physically abusive, except as implied by one woman with a long history of lying. He had several successful games to his credit, including being widely recognised as a talented composer. The closest thing to documentation of his abuse are a few reports that he was uncompromising, driven, and likely had a fuller mental breakdown in the middle of 2015 but was getting much better - but these come from people who have a vested interest in being portrayed as his victim, a potential financial interest in his cancellation, and several have come in posthumously, so he cannot counter their version of events. His death was then used by people on one side to solidify Zoe Quinn as a victim, and by people on the other to try and solidify Zoe Quinn as a lying abuser.

I think it's very clear which one was better for the world, and it's not the one who had been threatening her housemates with a large knife two days prior and been kicked out of the house for her troubles. It's also very clear that no matter what level of soyboy or cuck or whatever insult you wish to throw at Holowka, he was much less the creator of the circumstances that led to his suicide than Sagal was for hers.

It seems obvious to me that he's much more deserving of pity that she is; you, @heathercho, seem to have a differing perspective. You're welcome to it, but that you can't seem to understand why people might feel differently to you about the two is a little worrying.

 

[heathercho]

Zoe directly caused Alec's suicide.

How? Did Alec have a moral obligation to be protected from words for some reason?

 

[Webby's Boyfriend]

I believe most troons who kill themselves, do that not out of depression and despair, but hope - the hope to be re-incarnated in a body with the desired gender. For a troon, becoming "an hero" is literally a heroic act, it is the final stage of transitioning.