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hundredpercent

kiwifarms.net
Why doesn't KF...
  1. run ads on a peer-to-peer basis? Each week, auction off four slots in the rotation. Ads run for a month. Highest bidder gets them.
  2. handle credit cards "informally"? I input my CC# into a PHP form, Null uses it to buy Amazon gift cards, sells Amazon cards for bitcoin.
  3. use bitpay server btcpay server? This would allow users to pay straight from exchanges into KF without getting a bitcoin wallet. That opens up to significantly easier methods as well, like paying directly with CC using an instant exchange.
(1) is feasible but would probably only net ~$100/mo, (2) is feasible but a bit of work and requires users to trust KF with their card details, (3) is best practice anyway
 
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AnOminous

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kiwifarms.net
Why doesn't KF...
  1. run ads on a peer-to-peer basis? Each week, auction off four slots in the rotation. Ads run for a month. Highest bidder gets them.
  2. handle credit cards "informally"? I input my CC# into a PHP form, Null uses it to buy Amazon gift cards, sells Amazon cards for bitcoin.
  3. use bitpay server? This would allow users to pay straight from exchanges into KF without getting a bitcoin wallet. That opens up to significantly easier methods as well, like paying directly with CC using an instant exchange.
(1) is feasible but would probably only net ~$100/mo, (2) is feasible but a bit of work and requires users to trust KF with their card details, (3) is best practice anyway
(3) is not feasible because any exchange that interfaces with the banking system in any way is subject to exactly the same glowy bullshit that shut down New Project 2. If MasterCard tells them to shut it down, it's over, and anyone who donated gets their account shut down too.

You quite simply can't do anything remotely sketchy from any of the mainstream exchanges. Coinbase will even shut down your account for getting transfers to or from a gambling site.
 

hundredpercent

kiwifarms.net
(3) is not feasible because any exchange that interfaces with the banking system in any way is subject to exactly the same glowy bullshit that shut down New Project 2. If MasterCard tells them to shut it down, it's over, and anyone who donated gets their account shut down too.

You quite simply can't do anything remotely sketchy from any of the mainstream exchanges. Coinbase will even shut down your account for getting transfers to or from a gambling site.
How would Coinbase be able to shut it down?

Coinbase sees that you made a payment to 1PA6WuVWHUzTYS29ZL4wFipxwKgc4s9L57. This is the official KF BTC address. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

Coinbase sees that you made a payment to <random address>. The funds weren't touched for a month, and were then exchanged on a P2P exchange for Monero.

Then what? How will Coinbase know if this is badthink? There is no problem as long as you don't do the cardinal sin of Bitcoin privacy that is re-using addresses.
 

AnOminous

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kiwifarms.net
How would Coinbase be able to shut it down?

Coinbase sees that you made a payment to 1PA6WuVWHUzTYS29ZL4wFipxwKgc4s9L57. This is the official KF BTC address. Do not pass GO, do not collect $200.

Coinbase sees that you made a payment to <random address>. The funds weren't touched for a month, and were then exchanged on a P2P exchange for Monero.

Then what? How will Coinbase know if this is badthink? There is no problem as long as you don't do the cardinal sin of Bitcoin privacy that is re-using addresses.
And you're advising this to people who don't even know what an address is, what re-using it means, or any of this other bullshit, then advising they do it from an exchange. And you wonder why people don't use crypto as currency.

If you do anything related to the Farms from an exchange you are a moron, period. If you do not own the private key, you don't own the crypto. Some other person does. Some other person who is completely beholden to the government.

Please tell me you aren't the glowie your avatar makes you look like.
 

Kosher Salt

(((NaCl)))
kiwifarms.net
handle credit cards "informally"? I input my CC# into a PHP form, Null uses it to buy Amazon gift cards, sells Amazon cards for bitcoin.
As far as I know there's nothing stopping you from just buying the Amazon gift cards yourself and DMing him the numbers.
 

Bender

Bender Bee Rodriguez
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kiwifarms.net
handle credit cards "informally"? I input my CC# into a PHP form, Null uses it to buy Amazon gift cards, sells Amazon cards for bitcoin.
In order for Null to buy Amazon card online you'd also need to give him your CCV/security code, the name on the card and the expiry date. If you want the purchase to work without being randomly flagged by your bank for suspicious activity you'd need to give him your actual full name and address so he can add that as the billing address. And now you just sent a fuckton of stuff in plaintext to a complete stranger over the Internet, so you just have to trust that he'll only spend as much as you said. And even if he does all that he still needs to dispose of it in a secure manner.

Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?
 

hundredpercent

kiwifarms.net
And you're advising this to people who don't even know what an address is, what re-using it means, or any of this other bullshit, then advising they do it from an exchange. And you wonder why people don't use crypto as currency.

If you do anything related to the Farms from an exchange you are a moron, period. If you do not own the private key, you don't own the crypto. Some other person does. Some other person who is completely beholden to the government.

Please tell me you aren't the glowie your avatar makes you look like.
There would be no way for the exchange to figure out that this was a transfer going to the Farms. As long as KF has proper address management practices, there is no way for people to fuck up.
As far as I know there's nothing stopping you from just buying the Amazon gift cards yourself and DMing him the numbers.
Yeah, but that's an obstacle. For non-utilitarian purchases, reducing pain is extremely important. Nobody will be that bothered to use bitcoins or whatever to buy plumbing supplies at a discount, but for games, porn, donations etc. it has to be frictionless.
In order for Null to buy Amazon card online you'd also need to give him your CCV/security code, the name on the card and the expiry date. If you want the purchase to work without being randomly flagged by your bank for suspicious activity you'd need to give him your actual full name and address so he can add that as the billing address. And now you just sent a fuckton of stuff in plaintext to a complete stranger over the Internet, so you just have to trust that he'll only spend as much as you said. And even if he does all that he still needs to dispose of it in a secure manner.

Or am I misunderstanding what you meant?
No, that's correct. There's a good reason people don't usually do this. You could encrypt it etc., but there's still certain obvious issues as you've said.
 

Kosher Salt

(((NaCl)))
kiwifarms.net
Yeah, but that's an obstacle. For non-utilitarian purchases, reducing pain is extremely important. Nobody will be that bothered to use bitcoins or whatever to buy plumbing supplies at a discount, but for games, porn, donations etc. it has to be frictionless.
Scammers in India can convince elderly grandparents to send them Amazon gift codes, so clearly it's not that much of an obstacle. And it'd definitely be better than having people send their ID and credit card info to Null so that he could buy Amazon gift cards, as the post I was quoting suggested.

Obviously if you're using privacy.com to set up a pseudonymous, single-time use card, that's fine, but that's also a bigger obstacle that "buy an Amazon gift card."
 

hundredpercent

kiwifarms.net
Scammers in India can convince elderly grandparents to send them Amazon gift codes, so clearly it's not that much of an obstacle. And it'd definitely be better than having people send their ID and credit card info to Null so that he could buy Amazon gift cards, as the post I was quoting suggested.
Scammers are on the line with people for hours, and can coach them through the whole process. Here, all you can do is write a quick guide.

I still think it would be preferable to just fix the bitcoin thing and then direct people to an instant exchange, though.
 

Kosher Salt

(((NaCl)))
kiwifarms.net
Scammers are on the line with people for hours, and can coach them through the whole process. Here, all you can do is write a quick guide.
To be fair, most of that is convincing them that their Mac has a virus and they need to send an Amazon gift card to Microsoft to buy a Norton subscription to fix it because Geek Squad said so.

Actually just buying the gift card and sending the codes to someone is a pretty trivial step in the process.
 

Bender

Bender Bee Rodriguez
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kiwifarms.net
No, that's correct. There's a good reason people don't usually do this. You could encrypt it etc., but there's still certain obvious issues as you've said.
The good reason that nobody does this because it could easily be used by the customer to claim identity theft or fraud, since a purchase was made from their account that wasn't made by them. The thing about encryption is you still have a way of getting the original information back, so it's really only as secure as Null's pain tolerance or the security of the website, and if people learn they might get full, unredacted card details and enough details to open up new credit cards it would make KiwiFarms a target for hacking.

I know a guy who works for a payment processor, when the lockdown's over I'll share your idea with him and see if he has an aneurysm, lol.
 

hundredpercent

kiwifarms.net
The good reason that nobody does this because it could easily be used by the customer to claim identity theft or fraud, since a purchase was made from their account that wasn't made by them. The thing about encryption is you still have a way of getting the original information back, so it's really only as secure as Null's pain tolerance or the security of the website, and if people learn they might get full, unredacted card details and enough details to open up new credit cards it would make KiwiFarms a target for hacking.
CC details aren't that valuable, $2 a pop or so is the going rate. The customer could trivially claim fraud, yes. They could do that for any merchant.
I know a guy who works for a payment processor, when the lockdown's over I'll share your idea with him and see if he has an aneurysm, lol.
This is how literally all sites used to work back in the day before PCI compliance came along.
 

AnOminous

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kiwifarms.net
There would be no way for the exchange to figure out that this was a transfer going to the Farms. As long as KF has proper address management practices, there is no way for people to fuck up.
Then they'd just shut down Bitpay itself. Do you think if it were this easy Null wouldn't have already done it?
 

Bender

Bender Bee Rodriguez
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kiwifarms.net
CC details aren't that valuable, $2 a pop or so is the going rate.
True, but I was also thinking about complete and verified doxing of users and potential retribution, especially given the nature of the forum and the types of people we talk about. Someone spent enough time and effort to find the IP addresses of 7,000 users and about 5,000 email addresses just for shits and giggles.

The customer could trivially claim fraud, yes. They could do that for any merchant.
Except in this case they would know exactly who to accuse, lolcows would certainly abuse it to attempt to get Null into legal trouble in an effort to shut the site down.

I don't even know why we're discussing this anyway, Null would never go for the idea, he's already made it clear that he doesn't know who we are and doesn't want to.
 

hundredpercent

kiwifarms.net
Then they'd just shut down Bitpay itself. Do you think if it were this easy Null wouldn't have already done it?
Rotating addresses is best practice anyway (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address_reuse). Null is just one guy. Since Null evidently does not follow best practices, why is it hard to believe that he'd fuck up in more than one way at once?

How the crypto censorship works is well-known. Please watch https://go.chainalysis.com/domestic-extremism-webinar.html. There's no secret sauce to it, other than catching people who do the most obvious dumbfuck rookie mistake.

True, but I was also thinking about complete and verified doxing of users and potential retribution, especially given the nature of the forum and the types of people we talk about. Someone spent enough time and effort to find the IP addresses of 7,000 users and about 5,000 email addresses just for shits and giggles.
You can just delete the info once done.
Except in this case they would know exactly who to accuse, lolcows would certainly abuse it to attempt to get Null into legal trouble in an effort to shut the site down.
You could restrict it to users who've been active for more than X months.
I don't even know why we're discussing this anyway, Null would never go for the idea, he's already made it clear that he doesn't know who we are and doesn't want to.
You could tokenize it, but fair point.
 

AnOminous

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kiwifarms.net
Rotating addresses is best practice anyway (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Address_reuse). Null is just one guy. Since Null evidently does not follow best practices, why is it hard to believe that he'd fuck up in more than one way at once?
And you're expecting an entire forum to follow practices they don't even understand. Personally I always reuse addresses but it's generally been the norm if you're doing things like printing business cards or otherwise soliciting donations to use a single address, whether or not that's best practice.

The more security mechanisms you add to using crypto, the less adoption you'll get, so there's a decreasing rate of returns if you actually want to fund the site.

And on the subject of Bitpay again, guess what I see when I go to their website? One of their services is their card.

Guess what kind of card it is?

1615938816039.png
Guess how many minutes it would take to get the Farms blacklisted there? I don't think Vordrak would even have time to strut his stuff before it happened. MasterCard is literally the main instigator of demonetizing wrongthink on the Internet.
 

hundredpercent

kiwifarms.net
And you're expecting an entire forum to follow practices they don't even understand. Personally I always reuse addresses but it's generally been the norm if you're doing things like printing business cards or otherwise soliciting donations to use a single address, whether or not that's best practice.

The more security mechanisms you add to using crypto, the less adoption you'll get, so there's a decreasing rate of returns if you actually want to fund the site.
The forum users would not have to change anything or do anything differently.

This is a change solely on the server side.

It would require end users to employ less security mechanisms, and thus increase adoption and rate of return.

End users would go to KF, get a new, fresh address, paste it into coinbase and withdraw. There is no difference to the usual flow, other than the part where they get banned if they forget to use their own wallet.

And on the subject of Bitpay again, guess what I see when I go to their website? One of their services is their card.

Guess what kind of card it is?

[mastercard]

Guess how many minutes it would take to get the Farms blacklisted there? I don't think Vordrak would even have time to strut his stuff before it happened. MasterCard is literally the main instigator of demonetizing wrongthink on the Internet.
Not talking about Bitpay, the centralized service. I'm talking about BTCPay Server (https://github.com/btcpayserver/btcpayserver):

> Accept Bitcoin payments. Free, open-source & self-hosted, Bitcoin payment processor.

Here's an example of what a donation page looks like:


It's easy to use for end users, looks normal. The only difference? You get a different address each time. This means coinbase can not block it. You can transfer directly from exchange, don't need a wallet inbetween.
 

AnOminous

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kiwifarms.net
It's easy to use for end users, looks normal. The only difference? You get a different address each time. This means coinbase can not block it. You can transfer directly from exchange, don't need a wallet inbetween.
Coinbase can do anything they like, including just shutting down your account the instant they think anything whatsoever you did is fishy in even the tiniest way.

And in case I haven't made my opinion clear:

IGNORE THIS GUY. DO NOT USE EXCHANGES FOR ANYTHING EVEN REMOTELY RELATED TO KF.

(Except for the part about never reusing addresses, that part is totally right.)
 
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