The Abortion Debate Containment Thread - Put abortion sperging here.

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Zero Day Defense

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Yeah. Make the kid through life in some shitty foster home sharing a single room with 30 other kids and have their standard of living be at the mercy of charities and fundings from the state. I’m not ok with forcing anyone to do something especially if they were put in a situation were they had no choice in the matter.

If your ok with giving birth to a rape baby that’s fine but don’t try to force others into experiencing 9 months of sadness and depression because of it.
Are we assuming that their life will be irrevocably screwed and they won't be able to recover for the rest of their life? Again, that's the only life they'll get-- with those kinds of stakes, it only makes sense to do your best to ensure the best life they can possibly have without condemning them to death because you decided (in your infinite wisdom and clairvoyance) that their life isn't worth anything because they were conceived from rape.
 

Saklas

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Abortion isn't the ideal way to avoid raising a child, but the people who end up with a thread here are good reminders of why it should always be an option.

Jokes aside, I don't like abortion and I don't think anyone else does, but I think it should be available as a last resort along with good sex ed and access to contriceptives.
 
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The Pink Panther

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Yeah. Make the kid through life in some shitty foster home sharing a single room with 30 other kids and have their standard of living be at the mercy of charities and fundings from the state. I’m not ok with forcing anyone to do something especially if they were put in a situation were they had no choice in the matter.

If your ok with giving birth to a rape baby that’s fine but don’t try to force others into experiencing 9 months of sadness and depression because of it.
It's not forcing others to experience that. You got yourself into that shit in the first place. Watch the people you hang out with.

And besides rape babies are so fucking rare and it's not even really a reason why most people abort. So who fucking gives a shit. The child doesnt always end up in a foster home anyway.
 

Sweetpeaa

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I am not a man of faith. I don't believe in faith, I don't care about gods or anything like that.

I do believe in people. And I think life is wonderful and glorious and the mistakes that happen along the way are just another factor of that. Humans don't need to control every little thing that happens to them. Sometimes rolling with the punches is how to properly deal with things.

Incidentally, we also need children to function as a society. So having 18% of our pregnancies end in termination is not ideal either. It doesn't seem like it's just an option anymore, when so many people are exercising it. Having kids should be the norm, it must be the norm.

It already is the norm. The majority of women still marry and reproduce. Which is why the small number of women who are child free (by choice, not by infertility) are considered so controversial.
 

Don't Tread on Me

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It already is the norm. The majority of women still marry and reproduce. Which is why the small number of women who are child free (by choice, not by infertility) are considered so controversial.

Wrong.


59% of millennials (who are well into their thirties by this point) have never married. It is not the norm.
 

Sweetpeaa

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Wrong.


59% of millennials (who are well into their thirties by this point) have never married. It is not the norm.

I'd like to see the stats for other countries. You know the USA is only 4% of the worlds population right? I see no evidence of declining birthrates in countries like India.
 

The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

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Yeah. Make the kid through life in some shitty foster home sharing a single room with 30 other kids and have their standard of living be at the mercy of charities and fundings from the state. I’m not ok with forcing anyone to do something especially if they were put in a situation were they had no choice in the matter.

If your ok with giving birth to a rape baby that’s fine but don’t try to force others into experiencing 9 months of sadness and depression because of it.

You are making a lot of assumptions there slick.

I understand, and agree with the adoption part, but we have to remember that the foster care system is already swamped and shitty as it is. Who is going to care for all these unwanted children? They're just going to either grow up in abusive home where their parents resent them for being born, or be bounced around from foster home to foster home.

Just a reminder that Romania once outlawed all kinds of birth control, and it was a complete fucking disaster. The population exploded, and mortality rates went through the roof. There wasn't enough food to feed everyone, people were dying because of lack of medical care, crime skyrocketed, poverty drastically increased because there wasn't enough jobs and money to support the sudden population boom, and orphanages were absolutely overflowing, and rampant with utterly horrific abuse.

The ramifications were so great and catastrophic that it's one of the reasons that lead directly to the Romanian revolution, and even 30 years after the laws were reversed, they're still dealing with destruction they brought to the country.

Look, I don't like abortion. I hate it. I absolutely hate it. But I see it as a necessary evil that should be highly regulated and controlled, because the alternatives are so much worse in the long run.

The difference between us and Romania is that birth control is widely available. Maybe if women knew that abortion wasn't an easy, go to solution, they would be more circumspect about going out and having unprotected sex and one night stands. Just a thought.

As for the foster care system, the answer to that is to focus on reforming the system, not kill more children so we can ignore the issues. Another thing we could do is make adoption easier and cheaper. Many people do want to adopt, but find the process too arduous and the costs too prohibitive (from what I remember, the average cost of an adoption is much more than the average cost of an abortion, like upwards of $20,000).

I agree with a lot of you guys. But I don't think it's that simple.

Firstly, I think abortion is an ugly act. It's definitely not something to glorify or be proud of. And I don't think people should have it just willy nilly because it's inconvenient to have a kid. That said, it alarms me how many guys here don't seem to be able to put themselves in the other person's shoes, especially when it's not them that has to make the choice or carry the baby if pressured out of it.

Sometimes giving birth kills the mother. Sometimes the idea of carrying your rapist's baby feels like a violation and a continuous reminder of your own weakness and vulnerability. Sometimes you're 100% positive in advance that the child will be born with life-altering disabilities where they will never be fully sentient and will never live a full life, thus ruining your life as well in the process.

Now think about that through the eyes of the woman that has to bear the brunt of it all in making a choice for her own wellbeing. People aren't perfect. Is abortion murder? I don't really know. Yes and no. If it's something that people consistently debate over, I don't know if it's ever fully one way or another. As I've said, it's definitely not something I find empowering, nor is it something anyone should just jump into without second thought.

But it has a level of importance and it should be given as an option for the people who need it. And though I hope to god I'm never in that spot where I'd have to make that decision, I know that there's a very good chance that I would if any of the above factors came into play. I don't think people who have had an abortion should be shamed and labelled murderers on top of the big emotional toll of the procedure. That's cruel and doesn't empathize with their life circumstances.

Nothing is black and white. Ever. It's best to see things in shades of gray.

The vast majority of pro-lifers are already willing to accept abortion in cases of rape, incest, or the life of the mother being at stake. The thing is, these cases are a minuscule number of the abortions performed in the United States alone. The vast majority of abortions are not made for those reasons, but for reasons of convenience, lifestyle, and economics.
 

Exigent Circumcisions

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I don't think people who have had an abortion should be shamed and labelled murderers on top of the big emotional toll of the procedure. That's cruel and doesn't empathize with their life circumstances.
Your post was well thought out but you lost me a bit here.

Again; trying to put the onus on people who consider it murder outside of rape (or if it will kill the mother) to take the high road is a bit disingenuous. I'm sure that committing murder in general has a negative impact on the mental health of at least some of the perpetrators. Does that mean we should just "empathize with their life circumstances" and be nice to them about it?

Saying that it's cruel to disregard the feelings of somebody who I consider to be guilty of infanticide is appealing to a level of moral rectitude that isn't being upheld by the other side, as far as I'm concerned.
 

Muttnik

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Your post was well thought out but you lost me a bit here.

Again; trying to put the onus on people who consider it murder outside of rape (or if it will kill the mother) to take the high road is a bit disingenuous. I'm sure that committing murder in general has a negative impact on the mental health of at least some of the perpetrators. Does that mean we should just "empathize with their life circumstances" and be nice to them about it?

Saying that it's cruel to disregard the feelings of somebody who I consider to be guilty of infanticide is appealing to a level of moral rectitude that isn't being upheld by the other side, as far as I'm concerned.

Murder, by my definition at least, is done out of malicious intent. Now you could consider a planned abortion as having malicious intent but the reality is that no one in their right mind views the procedure as some sort of holiday or party. No one wants to go about killing things for funsies. Is it killing something? Yes. Is it murder? Again, I think it's too complicated an issue to label it 100% as such.

Now everyone has different perspectives and that's fine. What you view as wrong, another person could have a completely neutral response. What I'm getting at is that unless you are the one making the decision, you don't know with complete clarity the ethics or sacrifices or even the morals of the situation. And sure, you could say that you've never had to experience such a thing and never will. It's easy to do that when it isn't on you. But when it's your sister, sister in law, cousin, neighbor, co-worker, or other women that you know personally, it's a lot harder to call them a murderer based on what you know about what they're going through.

I don't think people who have had abortions are bad people. Or that they're condemned to Hell for their actions or whatever you believe in. I think everyone's scared and sometimes, the situation is out of their control based on the results. Sure, there are lots of awful people that have abortions for purely selfish reasons. But when there's others out there that are trying to spare themselves a cruel, miserable fate for the sake of themselves and the unborn child, I don't fault them for taking action.

The reality is that none of us will ever know what it's like until it's our turn to decide. And until then, it's honestly not in our place to demonize others without knowing their reasons why.
 

The Demon Pimp of Razgriz

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Murder, by my definition at least, is done out of malicious intent. Now you could consider a planned abortion as having malicious intent but the reality is that no one in their right mind views the procedure as some sort of holiday or party. No one wants to go about killing things for funsies. Is it killing something? Yes. Is it murder? Again, I think it's too complicated an issue to label it 100% as such.

I don't know. You got people "shouting" their abortions now, so I can't answer whether or not some mothers did have malicious intent. That being said, Homicide only requires intent to commit the act in most jurisdictions, not necessarily malice. The only thing that determines the level of homicide (first, second, or third degree) is things like whether or not the premeditated, committed in the heat of the moment, etc. Manslaughter is when you kill someone without the intent to do so and can be held fully culpable for their deaths, though it wasn't your intention. Abortion, if illegal, would be homicide because their is clear intent there to commit the crime.

Now everyone has different perspectives and that's fine. What you view as wrong, another person could have a completely neutral response. What I'm getting at is that unless you are the one making the decision, you don't know with complete clarity the ethics or sacrifices or even the morals of the situation. And sure, you could say that you've never had to experience such a thing and never will. It's easy to do that when it isn't on you. But when it's your sister, sister in law, cousin, neighbor, co-worker, or other women that you know personally, it's a lot harder to call them a murderer based on what you know about what they're going through.

Murder is murder; the individual circumstances will only determine its degree, but its still murder. If you shoot someone, whether by accident, or on purpose, whether you planned to do it or not, whether it was a crime of passion or not, its still you killing someone, and you will get arrested and charged with either manslaughter or murder. There are very few mitigating circumstances that would prevent you from being held fully accountable. If my mother shot a man in the back when she wasn't in danger, I would say she is a murderer. Its not about whether or not I personally know them; its about the act itself.

I don't think people who have had abortions are bad people. Or that they're condemned to Hell for their actions or whatever you believe in. I think everyone's scared and sometimes, the situation is out of their control based on the results. Sure, there are lots of awful people that have abortions for purely selfish reasons. But when there's others out there that are trying to spare themselves a cruel, miserable fate for the sake of themselves and the unborn child, I don't fault them for taking action.

Crimes in general are always tragic. But that doesn't mean that we should avoid holding people accountable for their actions. The fact is, that unless you are having an abortion for things outside of your control (Rape, incest, to save your life), you made a conscious decision to put yourself in the position to even consider an abortion. That was your decision. And to have an abortion, to commit that act, is also your decision, and everyone, including me and you, should be held accountable for their decisions.

The reality is that none of us will ever know what it's like until it's our turn to decide. And until then, it's honestly not in our place to demonize others without knowing their reasons why.

I can criticize people for a lot things that I would not do and have not done or been in a position to do, like murder or rape someone. Abortion is just one more thing to add to the list.
 

Muttnik

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It's totally fine to be pro-life and I understand the talking points behind it. I don't view my own pro-choice sentiments as some sort of stupid feminist crusade so much as a plea to try to understand things through the life of the person making the choice. I've known good people that have had to have abortions for the sake of the mother's life or the choice to prevent a genetic potato from happening. And at the same time I've met completely rotten people that have had an abortion because they hate children and took the coward's way out instead of owning up to responsibility.

When you have a complicated topic like this, I feel that black and white viewpoints go nowhere. I don't feel we have all the answers. And that's okay. It's fine to debate things. But to slant things as completely wrong or right just isn't productive or rational to me.

I dunno. I've said my bit. Cheers, guys.
 

Mr. Bung

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There's a saying I've seen from time to time, "keep abortion safe, legal, and rare," and I couldn't agree more with that. Abortion is necessary in some circumstances but it's a nasty procedure and it IS killing a living albeit developing human being. "Just a cluster of cells" is cope used by people who support abortion but can't bring themselves to acknowledge that it's in fact ending a life. Who are we to judge when a cluster of cells, or an embryo, or a fetus, becomes a human being? I'm not even arguing this based on religious belief, logically a human being begins development after fertilization of the ovum and this process continues all the way up until the brain becomes fully developed in the mid 20's to early 30's. Keep it legal but don't kid yourself, be responsible in deciding when it's ok to end a developing life, and when it's not.
 

Eris!

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Who are we to judge when a cluster of cells, or an embryo, or a fetus, becomes a human being?
I genuinely never understand any statement preceded by "who are we to judge?"
I'm a human being. Judging things is literally my job.

be responsible in deciding when it's ok to end a developing life, and when it's not.
Never, and always?
 

Fractal Lifeform

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Do you think that women somehow don't need to control themselves or are too stupid to do so, lol?
Society now is women can do no wrong and can do everything with no consequences. Where have you been?

At any rate, as for myself? I am pro-choice but don't like the leftists fetishization over Abortion where they proudly proclaim how many abortions they had or do other tasteless shit. Also, there is talk of abortions up to birth for non-medical reasons? The fuck is up with that?

But it is not all that exists out there. Most people in the United States have educational opportunities that they don't have in many third world countries. Well educated societies have lower fertility rates.
The guy is talking about the US. What goes on in other countries is irrelevant. Also, from my understanding, Europe and Japan also have the problem he mentioned. Its a problem that will continue to grow.
 

rocknrollmartian

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Society now is women can do no wrong and can do everything with no consequences. Where have you been?

At any rate, as for myself? I am pro-choice but don't like the leftists fetishization over Abortion where they proudly proclaim how many abortions they had or do other tasteless shit. Also, there is talk of abortions up to birth for non-medical reasons? The fuck is up with that?

Yes, abortion for any reason is effectively allowed per Doe v. Bolton, a companion ruling to Roe v. Wade that few seem to know about or acknowledge. And before someone starts in with more "omg, but what if a woman's life is at risk!" talking points, that argument simply makes no sense as doctors can and do routinely perform C-sections and deliver live babies for the majority of women dealing with emergency situations like preeclampsia. Abortion is not practical as an emergency procedure.

And the leftie abortion celebration trend pushed me over the edge. I used to be apathetic/pro-choice, woke up, and now find the entire abortion industry and its minions utterly repulsive, barbaric, and evil, e.g. Planned Parenthood flagrantly lies about its services to seem like an integral part of women's healthcare. I have no reason to respect or identify with these kinds of women:
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^Lindy had an abortion after repeatedly having 100% unprotected sex with her boyfriend and relying on multiple doses of emergency contraception, which failed due to her obesity. How responsible! How morally correct and in control!
 

Don't Tread on Me

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But it is not all that exists out there. Most people in the United States have educational opportunities that they don't have in many third world countries. Well educated societies have lower fertility rates.

And? That's all the more reason to restrict abortion. Even if you don't agree that its murder, we don't need to reduce our falling birth rate even more by letting women back out of it. Especially when those same women are typically voting to increase government spending and tax rates.