The Death Gate Cycle - Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman's attempt at merging Planescape with Dragonlance (and which is way better than it has any right to be)

Ginger Piglet

Burglar of Jess Phillips MP
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I've been re-reading this lately. It was released across seven volumes from 1991-1995, I believe, and can best be described as a deeply fucked up journey through dying magical realms. World building and setting excellent, character development pretty good, but ending totally falls flat. Still worth reading though. Even if every single faction is basically a particular type of larpers, though this fits in in a way with the backstory.

The rest of this post is spoilery, and consists of my extended spergings on the books, which I was hugely into as a teenager and I think still hold up well today.

The Backstory

In the future, global thermonuclear war sends humanity back to the Bronze Age, and in the process causes certain humans to mutate into wizards who are capable of literally bending reality. Society is rebuilt following their guidance over the following centuries, and in that time the wizards split into two distinct ideological groupings. The Sartan, who are all crystal spires and togas and consider themselves to be the wise counsel of mundane rulers and see the mundanes as lost children who need guidance, are one. The other are the Patryn, who are all black leather and big hoods and consider that they are the rightful rulers of society by dint of being the smartest and most powerful. The Sartan see the Patryn as basically magical Nazis, and the Patryn see the Sartan as hypocrites and powermongers. Both interpretations of both factions are true, incidentally.

(Also elves and dwarves, natch. It's mentioned that they were always there on Earth, they just have been hiding since the Renaissance.)

Needless to say, this devolves into at first covert, and then overt, warfare between the two factions. Until one Sartan named Samah comes up with a plan to end the threat of the Patryn forever. He and a bunch of other high powered Sartan get together and using impossibly complex ritual magic, they sunder the Earth into seven separate planes, each of which by way of magical portals and the titular Death Gate, is dependent upon and assists the other. There are planes of air, earth, fire, and water for the mensch (the Sartan and Patryn word for non-magical people). Then there is the Labyrinth, which is a "house of correction" for all the Patryn designed basically as a giant magical re-education camp to get them to stop being magic Nazis, and the Nexus, which is a land of sunlit uplands and rainbows and unicorns for the Patryn to live in when they have all learnt the lessons of the Labyrinth as a people. And the Vortex, which is a sort of "utility" plane where maintenance can be carried out.

This does not go as planned. None of the elemental planes work as expected; they are all full of bugs and are basically for one reason or another death worlds. The Labyrinth is basically a turbo death world that actively tries to murder those trapped in it in as creative a way as possible. So, the Sartan declare it someone else's problem and go into cryogenic storage. For the most part, anyway.

At the outset of the books we have a one-sided conversation between a Patryn called Haplo, who is the hero of the story, and his lord, Xar. Xar was the first Patryn to escape the Labyrinth and sets himself the challenge of freeing the rest of his people. Xar explains to Haplo that his mission, should he choose to accept it, is to visit each of the other worlds and basically fuck them up, so that Xar and the rest of the Patryn can come barrelling in and solve everything and be declared rulers of the universe. Haplo goes off to do this, equipped with his magical rune tattoos and his dog, and visits each of the worlds in turn.

Volume 1 - Dragon Wing

Off Haplo goes through Death's Gate and we don't hear of him at first. The action switches to Arianus, the air world. It's basically floating islands. The problem with Arianus is that it has no water. The only water is on the bottom floating continent called Drevlin where there's an endless rainstorm, and the dwarfs live in perpetual service to a mysterious and sprawling machine called the Kicksey Winsey (because that's the noise it makes). The dwarfs are all rather steampunk. Every so often they are visited by the elves, who are masquerading as the dwarfs' gods, the "Mangers," in giant ornithopters, who dump their trash on the dwarfs in exchange for sucking up water from the Kicksey Winsey's water tanks. The dwarfs also have a hilarious industrial theocracy thing going on - they're lead by a priest called the High Froman, and have names that double as job titles. One of these unfortunately is basically a trade union leader called Limbeck Bolttightner, who has been condemned to death for asking questions about why they have to work the Kicksey Winsey and advocating finding out what it does. The traditional execution is to be made to walk the plank off the side of the continent with a pair of wings. He does so, and survives by being blown onto a minor outlying island where he meets Haplo and his dog in his crashed ship.

While all this is going on, a human assassin in one of the upper islands, Hugh the Hand, is saved from execution by the King of the humans in exchange for agreeing to take a contract to slay the King's changeling son Bane. The humans are basically the Dragonriders of Pern with a piratical twist - their dragons won't go below a certain altitude so their survival and access to water is dependent on pirating the elves' ships. (And without any tentpeg-related incidents.) They were doing okay for themselves until their mages' guild, the mysteriarchs led by Sinistrad (whose hat is basically that he's EEEEEVIL, natch) fucked off to the topmost islands in the world, but not before leaving behind Sinistrad's son to be raised as the crown prince with the real prince as a hostage. They managed to win independence from the elves (who are sort of Louis XVI France with orgies and decadence and a twisted code of honour) by more luck than judgement and a magical song (more on that later). Hugh can't bring himself to murder a child and he and the chamberlain, a rather wet sort of chap called Alfred, go on a bit of a journey.

Needless to say, they meet up with Limbeck and Haplo during the former's attempted revolution in the dwarf land, and all go on a quest to the topmost island to retrieve the real prince and generally cause civil war as much as possible. Haplo fucks off, but not before realising that Alfred is the last remaining Sartan, and an extremely powerful one at that, but who has forgotten how to consciously use his magical abilities.

It's a pretty fun story in its own right, though its relevance to the main plot is limited. So much so that the fifth volume revisits its setting to develop it and link it in more with the others. I like how Limbeck goes from glasses-wearing nerd to badass revolutionary and also the dialogue in the dwarven chapters is absolutely spot on. Hugh's plot is less compelling though. I suspect this was originally going to be a standalone novel which Haplo and Alfred were podged into in a later version when W&H realised how much money there was in another series like they did with Dragonlance.

Before I move on, the songs. Every novel has at least one plot relevant song in it, and there is sheet music for the same in the back. The song in this one is a hymn called Hand Is Flame. It's okay and it's apparently a secret spell in musical form that causes elves to have a heel-face turn.

Volume 2 - Elven Star

The world of Pryan is the fire realm and consists of a Dyson Sphere about four suns. On the inside, all the humans and elves and dwarves live in a jungle that is miles deep top to bottom and has trees and moss beds with literal seas in them. The plot this time follows an elven merchant and womanizer called Paithan Quindiniar and his family of Jane Austen characters (the elves hat this time is basically being a Regency romance come to life) as he, his cringing maiden sister Aleatha, and his severe older sister Calandra engage in arms dealing to a pair of human fences smuggling magical weapons into the human lands. The fences, who are basically Pirates of the Carribean types (that's the human's hat here) are brother and sister, and a dwarf named Drugar (you never see any other dwarfs in this book so I have no idea what their hat is here).

Needless to say, they all run into Haplo who has just arrived on the dragon ship he stole in the first volume and enhanced with magical runes, and in doing so run across a bunch of wooden golems referred to as the tytans. Despite lacking free will, the tytans are possessed of stupidly powerful magic. Because they have no idea what they are doing they ask everyone they come across "where are the citadels" and "what must we do." When they don't get an answer, they go nuts and murder everyone in the vicinity.

They also meet a very annoying man called Zifnab who has a pet dragon, claims to be a Sartan, as well as James Bond, and Jesus.

Needless to say, Haplo manages to get Paithan, Aleatha, Roland and Rega the humans, and Drugar into one of the citadels (which Paithan thought was one of the stars - like I said, it's a Dyson Sphere), saving them, but allows the tytans to eradicate everyone outside. However he has some misgivings about whether he's really one of the good guys.

Oh yes. The song. It's a really rather rousing drinking song called Bonnie Earl. It has roughly 90 verses (thankfully not all of them are reproduced) and is sung in a dockside pub at one point. Paithan knows all the words, to the disgust of his sister.

I thought this one lacking in substance. It's like W&H thought, hmmm, fire world? How about a Dyson Sphere! Expectations subverted! Then didn't know what to do with it. Paithan Quindiniar was the best of the characters specific to this volume, the rest were a bit boring. Zifnab I would happily stomp into oblivion and then shove his fucking robe and wizard hat up his arse. Thankfully, it gets a lot better.

Volume 3 - Fire Sea

This one starts with Haplo going through Death's Gate into the earth plane, Abarrach. Abarrach is a warren of volcanic caverns, toxic gases, and lava streams. He gets there and finds that everyone is dead. The humans, dwarfs, and elves all died from the horribly corrosive atmosphere but there are still people there, and they are the Sartan. They can survive but only by using the majority of their magic to repeatedly and subconsciously cast protection spells on themselves and their goods. They sort of come over as colonial Americans. Think Salem Witch Trial aesthetic. They also practice necromancy, resurrecting the corpses of their dead to carry out menial labour. Unfortunately this isn't helping, because Abarrach is slowly freezing over. See, absent an external sun, its molten core is gradually cooling down. We track a young necromancer named Balthazar as he takes his people down to a realm below closer to the core of the world, only to come into conflict with the Roman style Kairn Necros and its dynast, Kleitus.

Haplo comes into the middle of all this and also meets Alfred from the first book. How? Because Alfred inadvertently wished he was somewhere else and opened a portal into Death's Gate just as Haplo and his ship were going through. Haplo realises how Alfred is a Sartan and decides to take him prisoner.

Haplo, Alfred, and the dog try to find out just what went so horribly wrong here. Alfred realises that the Sartan were not all that well intentioned all along given what Haplo tells him about the Labyrinth and being trapped therein, while Haplo realises that the Sartan weren't all the evil magical fascists he was taught they were, and that far from being evil overlords they were just as flawed as everyone else. Specifically, the ones on Abarrach rely so heavily on necromancy.

The pair learn that necromancy is a really bad idea. Firstly, whenever a corpse is raised as a zombie, another person of that race somewhere in the universe dies untimely. And secondly, if you raise a corpse too early, it becomes a lazar. Basically, a zombie, but which retains all its memories and abilities from when it was alive and is filled with utter hatred of the living, and exists to kill the living and raise them as more lazar. This is found out the hard way when one of Kleitus's necromancers, Jonathan, sees his wife Jera, also a necromancer, killed before him and out of grief raises her. She becomes a lazar. Zombie apocalypse ensues, and Haplo, Alfred, and the dog rush back to Haplo's ship to delta the fuck out of there. In doing so they come across a room called the Chamber of the Damned which is full to bursting with skeletons, and feel that maybe the Sartan and Patryn aren't the highest powers in the universe, and that there maybe is a God.

As they escape, Haplo has to decide whether to tell Lord Xar about necromancy or present Alfred as his prisoner. He decides that necromancy is too dangerous and claims Abarrach is a dead world, and sends Alfred on to... somewhere else.

This is the best of the series. It really nails the dying earth setting and the juxtaposition of the utter decadence of Kleitus's people with their need to raise their own dead as zombies to perform labour for them, and how their civilisation with collapse under its own degeneracy. Meanwhile Balthazar's people are hopeful of a better life despite everything. Also the way Haplo and Alfred bounce off each other so well - the old and rather pathetic and haunted Alfred hiding immense inner strength versus the young and brash Haplo hiding secret vulnerability.

The song is a sort of zombie waltz called Death Masque.

Volume 4 - Serpent Mage

Lord Xar opens this one, discovering that Haplo has lied to him and punishing him for it, before sending him to the final elemental plane, that of water, Chelestra. Now Chelestra is basically space as an ocean. It's a huge blob of water with an artificial sun within it, and "seamoons" that have negative gravity floating in it, and inside the surface of the seamoons are giant caverns with tropical beaches and savannahs. Our point of view characters are three young girls, the princesses of the dwarfs, elves, and humans respectively. Their hats are, not to put too fine a point on it, Highlanders, Arabian Nights, and Black Panther. Thankfully the latter is without the whole WAKANDA FOREVAR bollox.

The problem is that the seasun is constantly moving and for the first time in generations the races must load their entire civilisation in giant submarines called sun chasers and travel to another seamoon. The three princesses, whose names are Grundle, Sabia, and Alake respectively, are preparing to board the ships when a bunch of sea serpents smash the sun chasers and tell them that unless the princesses are all sacrificed, they will destroy their entire civilisations. Regrettably, their fathers agree to do so, and put them in the one ship left untouched by the serpents, who tow it to their haunt.

This is where Haplo turns up. He goes through Death's Gate and slams into the water, only shock horror! The water is literally washing the protective magic off his ship and himself and he begins to drown when he is picked up by the princesses' submarine. He feigns unconsciousness knowing that he must stick to his original mission or Xar will probably have him executed, and works out how the fuck he's going to do this with his magic stripped by the anti-magic seawater. He also realises that Sabia is actually a man (the real Sabia killed herself and her fiancée is masquerading as her), and overhears about these dragon-snakes. He also has to decide whether to welcome Alake's amorous advances towards him. On the one hand, he's not had his ashes hauled in many years. On the other hand, she's just a teenager. Decisions, decisions.

They all meet the dragon-snakes, who seem to know that Haplo is a Patryn. But he has never understood who or what these beings are. They seem to be impossibly powerful and capable of bending reality. Turns out that they are the personification of hatred and chaos and negative emotions and the counterbalance to the higher power he and Alfred encountered signs of in the third book. They literally "grow fat on your fear." But Haplo, mindful of his need to please his lord, accepts their offer of an alliance and they just so happen to tell him where all the Sartan can be found on this plane. The princesses rally the rest of their people and off they go.

Cut to Alfred, washed up on a beach on a tropical island full of crystal spires and togas. Here, he looks through the abandoned city and finds the Sartan's cryostasis chamber. As he enters it, the magic activates and they all open. And who comes out but Samah, the Sartan ruler, and the rest of his inner circle. He tries to explain what is going on but Samah isn't having it, and the rest of the Sartan awake. Alfred is told to stay in the city while they work out what to do with him.

While this is happening, the dragon snakes, Haplo, and all the humans, elves, and dwarfs dock on the Sartan island. However the princesses realise that there's enough room and things here for them all to live in peace. Samah isn't having that, though, and is absolutely incensed that there are Patryn like Haplo escaped from the Labyrinth. But with the threat of the dragon-snakes drilling holes into the island and letting in the anti-magic seawater, Samah relents. But he is very, very, annoyed. He claps Haplo in chains and tosses him in the dungeons. Alfred, on the other hand, goes looking around and finds a library with some restricted documents in it, and learns exactly what happened to Sartan like him who opposed Samah.

Samah shows him by turning up and sending him into the Labyrinth.

Cliffhanger!

This is the second best one. It pays off a lot of the things hinted at in earlier books and also develops Haplo and Alfred further. The bit where Haplo considers banging a teenager is a bit squicky though, although it's arguable that Haplo deciding not to use her for his pleasure is a character development point; Xar would have wanted him to. The setting is rather cool as well. Submarine mage punk. Also, we learn that the real villains are within not without, which is a theme for the rest of the series, and one quite well explored. Alfred even gets a bit of action, the sly old dog; it's implied that Samah's wife has a thing for him.

The song is a ballad called Lady Dark that goes on way too long.

Volume 5 - Hand of Chaos

Or, Dragon Wing II: Kicksey Winsey Boogaloo.

Most of this is basically exploring the aftermath of the events of volume 1. The Kicksey Winsey is fully activated and Arianus becomes less of a death world, and the Elven emperor is overthrown. Would have liked to see more of the civil war behind that. Also the Kenkari, a whole new grouping, should have been properly explored in the first novel. Ditto Hugh's guild. This felt like the offcuts from book 1 sometimes.

Hugh the Hand is back and extremely badassful. Limbeck doesn't like being a revolutionary any more.

Despite this, it's okay. Not as good as 1, 3, or 4 but better than 2. It feels like what it is - a book written to fill in the gaps between where the characters are at the end of the previous one and getting them where they need to be at the start of the next one.

The songs are a rather spiffy musique concrete number called Kicksey Winsey and an excessively long Kenkari prayer.

Volume 6 - Into the Labyrinth

Shit is getting real. There's a lot of Patryn who have escaped the Labyrinth, Alfred is stuck right in the middle of it, Xar has learnt necromancy and is immediately using it as a truth serum, and Haplo is on Arianus wondering what to do next and preparing to rescue Alfred. Because despite everything else, he's his friend, damn it, and Haplo doesn't have any friends right now. Even the dog has gone missing. Oh, and the dragon snakes have teamed up with Xar because conquest of the universe would allow them to grow fat on everyone in it's fear.

Xar opens this one again with a Patryn woman called Marit, who he recruits to bring Haplo in from wherever he's got to. Marit, incidentally, was Haplo's former gf when they were stuck in the Labyrinth together. He thought she was dead. But she survived and gave birth to their child, who she left with a tribe of squatters and headed on.

I do like the Patryn culture as it is portrayed in this book. Basically, they are either Runners or Squatters. The Labyrinth is a super death world that is actively trying to kill you in the most drawn out and painful way possible. For instance, if you're climbing a mountain to get to somewhere, it'll set off an avalanche. Or it'll summon a load of weretigers to raid your camp. Or it'll send an evil clone of your gf to impersonate her, get close to you, and murder you. It is a sentient death world, but it is forced to always give you a mildly reasonable chance to survive. So the aforementioned evil clone will look like a mirror image of your gf, or the weretiger horde will attack in not quite overwhelming force, or the avalanche will be detectable a few seconds before it hits. Therefore, the Patryn have a very tribal oriented culture. Everyone looks out for everyone else. They also developed magic that is stronger when they are in close proximity to each other. Children, where there are any, are raised by the entire tribe and everyone is responsible for raising them. Oh, and they also have glowing runes tattooed on their skin and dress in black leather. Basically they're magical tribal goths.

Squatters are those that stay in tribes and provide support and shelter to outsiders and follow herds in the general direction of the exit. Runners are those who prefer to be alone, who try to get to the exit as fast as possible. Haplo and Marit were both Runners.

Anyhow, Marit is geased to track down and murder Haplo. This forces Haplo into action and this, combined with the depredations of Hugh the Hand, who is still trying to murder Haplo from a contract he took in the 5th book, result in them all falling through Death's Gate and into a mysterious white void room with a single exit. Alfred is here. Marit is reluctantly forced to help them because she knows that without his help the Labyrinth has a higher chance of killing her.

Well, they're right in the middle of the Labyrinth and there's only one way out. So they start going all the way back to the exit of the Labyrinth when they come across a city. A really big city called Abri. Which despite being in a sentient death world and next to a river that is designed with a specific configuration of rocks and rapids that guarantees that you will freeze to death and fracture your skull if you fall in, is thriving. Haplo, who was born towards the end of the Labyrinth, doesn't believe this is possible. He finds it even harder to believe when the leader of this city is half Patryn and half Sartan.

Basically, because the dragon snakes want to grow fat on as many peoples' fear as possible, they lead a massive army of monsters to besiege the city and specifically murder Haplo and there's a really sweet battle. Weretigers, wolf-men, chaodyn (giant mantises who can clone themselves out of cut off limbs), snogs (sort of beastmen expies), boggleboes (the aforementioned evil clones), and even fucking dragons all show up. And it takes place during the day. Game of Thrones take note. This is how you do the big battle against the forces of evil, not having it at night with a load bearing boss. The good guys survive, but Haplo is dead.

Meanwhile, Xar is on Pryan trying to manipulate Paithan Quindiniar ('member him?) and friends into helping him work out how the tytans work. You can skip these chapters. They are of no consequence and are very annoying.

But other than that bit, this is possibly the 4th best book in the series. It would have been 3rd had it not been for the Pryan chapters, which are padding of the worst sort. Marit comes across as really well developed despite only being in half of this volume and the next. Alfred finally shows his true abilities and confidence and Haplo realises that there is something worth fighting for other than being a pawn of a dubious overlord. It is intimated that one of the residents of the city of Abri is his and Marit's daughter. However, the dragon-snakes aren't beaten yet, and neither are Samah and Xar, and Haplo is dead...

Volume 7 - The Seventh Gate

Alexa, what is a missed opportunity?

This should have been all kinds of epic. The giant confrontation between all the big bads as they try to screw each other over. Instead we get a book that is 2/3 padding, 1/3 appendices and infodumps, and with a small amount of actual action and plot within it. And it is all resolved when the chief dragon snake is surprised into banging his head on the ceiling. I wish I was making that bit up.

I can't remember how Alfred and Marit and friends get out of the Labyrinth but they do. I think it's when fucking Zifnab (gah) turns up and magically bullshits them out of there. Ugh. Why does Zifnab even exist. Yes, I know, he's a reference to Fizban from Dragonlance. So keep him in fucking Dragonlance, people. The only really noteworthy development here is that it's revealed (and to be fair, has been foreshadowed throughout) that the dog is actually Haplo's soul made flesh. It was in a flashback in the first book, for instance, that the dog basically nudged and encouraged Haplo to stagger the final few yards out of the Labyrinth to make his escape; the dog always seems to know what Haplo would want, and so forth.

Basically everyone converges on the Chamber of the Damned from the third book which is revealed to be the room where Samah and friends carried out the ritual that sundered the old world, Sang-Drax the leader of the dragon snakes bangs his head, some magical prophecy bullshit happens, and all of a sudden it occurs to both Haplo (who has got his body back now) and Alfred that the key is for Sartan and Patryn to work together to set off a world healing wave.

Bull. Shit.

This is Game of Thrones series 8 in book form. Basically, if they'd stopped after the battle of Abri with Haplo dying and redeeming himself but being saved somehow with the dog soul swap, Alfred resolving to travel the planes atoning for his inaction in the face of evil in the past, the dragon-snakes battered but still an ever-present threat, and Marit raising her and Haplo's daughter, and maybe Xar and Samah being brought down a peg or two, it would have been so much better and dovetailed with the themes of the perils of hubris. But no. They had to go and overcomplicate things, write themselves into an overly elaborate corner, and then have to Deus Ex Machina their way out of it.

Long serieses of books tend to have these problems. Stephen King's Dark Tower novels. The Wheel of Time. A Song of Ice and Fire.

But... yeah, the last volume is shit and disappointing. A very distant last.

Even the song is stupid.

So, yeah. Has anyone else read these and if so, what do you think of them?

[/SPOILER]
 

Pocket Dragoon

you're disturbing my calm.
kiwifarms.net
I've only read the first book, way back in highschool, and barely managed to finish it. I remember it was highly surreal & ambitious, along with being far too rich for my blood; Forgotten Realms, Rifts sourcebooks, horror, & classic hard sci-fi being more my speed.

I appreciate the rundown on the rest of the series. The world and premise I found fascinating, and had I not already been into at least two other book series at the time, I probably would've found & read the rest.
 

Autumnal Equinox

Non ducor, duco
kiwifarms.net
I’ve been meaning to check it out. I only read a few DragonLance books (which I didn’t really care for) and their Darksword Trilogy (which is surprisingly good) had a lot of people recommended them to me, and if it’s reminiscent of Planescape like you said, I’ll probably end up liking it.
 

Dante Alighieri

"Nature is the art of God."
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I read the series and enjoyed it a lot. The worldbuilding is pretty good and diverse, despite using the same handful of races. Elves on one world are different from the elves on another. I do agree that the series kinda fell off towards the end, but I still enjoyed it.

The Zifnab stuff did feel really out of place and hamfisted, and he's pretty much Deus Ex Machina.
 

MembersSchoolPizza

Sworn Brother of the Cult of Browning
kiwifarms.net
I read them back in Highschool, coming off a Dragon Lance binge and having seen the authors involved.

I remember them being "okay", with some pretty good parts and some pretty stupid parts in about equal measure, which seems to more or less jive with what you summarized.

And yeah. Zifnab was stupid. He was arguably stupid in Dragonlance, too, but as an avatar for a literal God in a D&D setting, he was a little more palatable. His sort of "humor" felt very much like the sort of ham-handed geek humor we all did and experienced around the gaming table, so he made a certain amount of sense.
 

Ginger Piglet

Burglar of Jess Phillips MP
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I read them back in Highschool, coming off a Dragon Lance binge and having seen the authors involved.

I remember them being "okay", with some pretty good parts and some pretty stupid parts in about equal measure, which seems to more or less jive with what you summarized.

And yeah. Zifnab was stupid. He was arguably stupid in Dragonlance, too, but as an avatar for a literal God in a D&D setting, he was a little more palatable. His sort of "humor" felt very much like the sort of ham-handed geek humor we all did and experienced around the gaming table, so he made a certain amount of sense.

Someone once said that W&H were better at writing D&D settings than actual novels. I can see why that might be.

I also heard that the incident where Haplo, still in anti-hero mode, has to decide whether to bang a teenager and decides not to because he'd just treat her as a disposable plaything then arsehole her was a sort of take that to the fangirls who insisted on making Raistlin from Dragonlance their husbando.

Their later Well of Darkness was, IMO, really good. Unfortunately its two sequels were very meh and once again, it's a launchpad for a campaign setting. Also that setting had Larry Elmore involved in it.
 

MembersSchoolPizza

Sworn Brother of the Cult of Browning
kiwifarms.net
Someone once said that W&H were better at writing D&D settings than actual novels. I can see why that might be.

I also heard that the incident where Haplo, still in anti-hero mode, has to decide whether to bang a teenager and decides not to because he'd just treat her as a disposable plaything then arsehole her was a sort of take that to the fangirls who insisted on making Raistlin from Dragonlance their husbando.

Their later Well of Darkness was, IMO, really good. Unfortunately its two sequels were very meh and once again, it's a launchpad for a campaign setting. Also that setting had Larry Elmore involved in it.

I legit liked the Well of Darkness and even the two sequels, and the setting they inspired.
 

BoobWhiskers

phantom feminized testicles
kiwifarms.net
@Ginger Piglet YO I am always absolutely delighted to find other Death Gate fans, how does this happen on Kiwi Farms of all places? I remember nearly shitting myself when I saw @Dante Alighieri was reading them because you never find anyone in the wild who's ever heard of these, so imagine my surprise to see a thread of all things.

It's been a while since I read all the way through the series due to somehow inexplicably losing book 4 and never getting around to picking up a new copy for the third (?) time, but I read these back in high school too and was absolutely obsessed. I've always really enjoyed good worldbuilding behind a series and as much fun as Dragonlance is, Death Gate just hooked me in a way that Dragonlance didn't. Maybe it was the side by side comparisons of how the same races across different worlds turned out, maybe it was the elemental theming, maybe it was because I was super into Haplo but these were definitely up there for my favorite series by Weis and Hickman. Also liked Rose of the Prophet, but not to the same degree.

It's a lot of fun seeing people talk about this here, and hell of a nice job on summarizing the whole thing out so well. I remember there being a tiny but dedicated fandom of like... ten people, back in the day on Tumblr, but since that's a thoroughly dead platform these days it's wonderful to know there's other fans out there!
 

DungeonMaster

kiwifarms.net
I'm up to the third book. The second was shit. Third one's an improvement, but it gets a little slow around the latter half.
 

The Un-Clit

After the Dimensional Merge, pussy eats YOU!
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I read them back in Highschool, coming off a Dragon Lance binge and having seen the authors involved.

I remember them being "okay", with some pretty good parts and some pretty stupid parts in about equal measure, which seems to more or less jive with what you summarized.

And yeah. Zifnab was stupid. He was arguably stupid in Dragonlance, too, but as an avatar for a literal God in a D&D setting, he was a little more palatable. His sort of "humor" felt very much like the sort of ham-handed geek humor we all did and experienced around the gaming table, so he made a certain amount of sense.

Too see a 'Zifnab/Fizban' type of character done right, check out any of Brandon Sanderson's 'Cosmere' universe's books but especially the Stormlight Archive books for the character known as 'The King's Wit' on that world, and as the storyteller (and more) Hoid on other Cosmere worlds.
 

Overly Serious

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This thread takes me back. I read, iirc, the first four or five books quite young and then ended up reading the last few years later. I think obviously you respond differently to things as an adult in both good and bad ways. Things you thought were cool or funny as a kid can seem less so as an adult but by the same token the end of the saga was more tolerable to me as an adult than as a kid where as a kid you want things spelled out and big fights, also. I agree with OP that their proposed ending might have been more interesting, but it plainly wasn't what W&H were going for and as early as Elven Star you can see the groundwork being laid.

Okay, I'm going to spoiler the rest because I feel like just talking freely. Be warned for anyone who hasn't finished the series, yet.

So I didn't have the negative reaction to Elven Star that OP has. In fact, I really liked it because as a kid I could not see where it was going and I liked the hints of a wider mystery and also the sense of horror evinced by the Tytans. The sheer blunt unreasoningness of them was creepy - giant telepathic blind giants that ask of everyone they meet a single incomprehensible question then murder them when unanswered. "Where are the citadels". Nobody on (in!) Pryan remembers the time when they lived in the cities. I like how eventual survival hinges on Durgan (sp?) forgiving the elves and humans who he blames for his people being killed as he works out how to open the Citadels but has to decide whether he's actually going to share it or make everyone including himself, die in the jungles.

Elven Star is the first time we get a real glimpse of things going wrong. I can't remember for certain that it was in this novel but it took place within the citadels so most likely. I want to say that it was Haplo viewing images of the past. We see memories of the mensch within the citadel fighting with each other, riots, the Sartan increasingly struggling to stop the rising tensions and eventually turning everyone out of the citadels. And also the growing sense of desperation as we see the Sartan council in snapshots over the years - when will they get the great machine on Arianus working? Why have they not heard from the Sartan on other worlds?

I also found it sad the way the elven society was destroyed as personified in Alithea. A woman whose entire life has been as a socialite in the upper bounds of society and who can't comprehend that her world is actually ending. She does harm dallying with people's affection, not comprehending that her suitor is actually going to die to protect her and maybe you could view her as a spoiled brat but my heart has always been strongly affected by people who don't know why bad things are happening to them. And Alithea is like a child who just can't understand it. Callie's death also affected me. If I recall correctly, knowing death is coming and there's nothing she can do, she simply chooses to sit down and finish balancing the business's books. It's unutterably sad and probably what I would do in the same circumstances.

The final reveal of how Pryan actually is constructed as a giant sphere with four suns at the centre was interesting and well-telegraphed. I wonder if as an adult I'd have pieced together the clues and worked it out. Haplo remarks there's something wrong but he doesn't know what it is. He drifts for days without direction until he finally finds "land". There's the way "stars" (the Citadels) sometimes go out and then reappear. I liked Regan and Paithan as well. I'm surprised OP dislikes this book so much - it's one of the ones I remember most vividly.

Onto other books... I think OP may misremember a couple of things. The princesses in Serpent Mage aren't sent by their fathers as sacrifice. Their parents refuse to send them and the children are eavesdropping and when they hear this, they decide to make the choice themselves and steal a ship to do so to save their people. And the "princess" who turns out to be a boy I think sneaked in against Sabia's wishes to sacrifice himself in her place. Though I think OP is right that when she finds out Sabia kills herself to try and still make good on the sacrifice or maybe just guilt? There's a whole lot of nobleness going on with those kids which Haplo almost gleefully tears apart when he finds out the situation. Remarking that they've actually been really stupid. They've given the dragonsnakes hostages if they want them. They've meant that if the dragonsnakes attack their parents will now no longer be confident rulers but distracted and worried about their children. He also rumbles "Sabia's" troonery right away and asks what if the dragonsnakes have particular purposes to ask for daughters not sons, such as breeding? Which causes the teenage girls to all have a bit of an 'oh fuck' moment.

Regarding the "squickiness" of Haplo and Alake. I think she was 14 if I remember rightly but she might have been 16. I do remember that she sneaks into his tent at night to 'see if he's alright' or some such pretext. He's dreaming about Marit and kisses her while still half-asleep. Alake retreats because he kissed her like he would kiss a woman and it wasn't the kind of teenage fantasy she had imagined but something more sexual. Haplo realises that after the shock she will come back wanting more and thinks Xar would want him to do it to bind the princess to him loyally but he decides he wont do it even if it's what Xar wants. He also doesn't know how to explain to Alake he was kissing a memory, not her. I don't think there was anything wrong in this in the book. It is really an opportunity for Haplo to show he doesn't want to be manipulative and to pursue power above all else. I was probably around Alake's age when I read it so the whole thing about wanting that older person and not understanding why that older person rebuffed you was relatable. The scenario was realistic including Haplo's reaction. It would be squicky if Haplo did exploit her for political gain or was all "yay, teenagers!" but that's really not the book's take on it - more the opposite.

I remember Aberach being a very interesting read. We've had the Sartan built up in the previous books and now we finally get to see them and our expectations are subverted entirely legitimately. And we feel that through Alfred's reaction to first finding his people and then finding what they've become. Remember that Alfred went to sleep a man in his prime and woke to find himself old, alone and all the sleeping chambers around him had become tombs including that of his wife's. He goes to look at her perfectly preserved body sometimes, looking only as if she were asleep except there is no breath. It's on Aberrach that he finally finds out just why they might have died with the practice of necromancy meaning that for every life "restored", another elsewhere dies. It's a dark, claustrophobic novel when even the cities look up only to cavern roofs and the world itself growing colder and darker. The worlds are meant to work together - Pryan's excess heat was meant to warm Aberrach, the great machine on Arianus was supposed to supply water from Chelestra to other realms (iirc). And it's all gone wrong.

I like the slow reveal of what is going on. For example, Haplo's hypothesis that Death's Gate was maybe never even meant to be travelled through. Or that the reason it's so difficult to traverse is that it's "closed" and that it could be opened to provide easy travel. My biggest issue with the ending is that it's rushed. The actual idea I do not mind and it's not like there wasn't a lot of foreshadowing. Only that it seems to wrap up so quickly. This series is truly a journey, not a destination. A slight shame it couldn't be both but the journey is a fun one and the destination not that bad.

A final thought on Zifnab. I had fortunately read the Dragonlance trilogy otherwise I'd have been very confused. I have a real distaste for Fourth Wall breaking so Zifnab was potentially a fatal flaw for me but it's saved by the revelation that he's not breaking the Fourth Wall but that their world is actually our world, after a cataclysm. So his jokes about James Bond and other figures (including Fizban, just barely) are plausible. A bit on the nose but in a way, if you trusted the authors, it's actually a quite clever clue to the nature of the worlds.

Well worth a read, particularly the first four books.
 

Protistology

kiwifarms.net
but ending totally falls flat.
Meh, Weis had cancer.

Into the Labyrinth was the worst book, it when you realize they had no idea what to do with Hugh so he's just sort of there.

It's also weird how the second, fourth and sixth books are steamy and sexual (especially the second) but the others are ... not. Shouldn't it all be one way or the other?

And Zifnab is great. You have no idea what you're talking about. I love his backstory reveal in the fifth book and how his fourth wall breaking ... isn't.
 

The Un-Clit

After the Dimensional Merge, pussy eats YOU!
True & Honest Fan
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And Zifnab is great. You have no idea what you're talking about. I love his backstory reveal in the fifth book and how his fourth wall breaking ... isn't.

Hey, if you like him it's all good. In my early teens I loved the character too, until I started reading much better written fantasy, SF and historical fiction as I got older.

Nowadays when I look back on the Dragonlance, Dark Sword (still fairly decent imo) Death's Gate and other series' written by Weis and Hickman and pretty much any fiction published by TSR, I just cringe at how easily pleased I was with genre fiction as a kid.

Trying to remember...what was the series with the "we're totally not ripping off muslims and fremen for our desert-dwelling tribe of total badasses guize!" book? Only other things I really remember was the white femboi wizard who desperately wanted to gargle the nutsack of the Stilgar-like leader of the tribe, and the djinn who thirsted after an angel for three whole fucking books. :hambone:
 

Protistology

kiwifarms.net
Hey, if you like him it's all good. In my early teens I loved the character too, until I started reading much better written fantasy, SF and historical fiction as I got older.

Nowadays when I look back on the Dragonlance, Dark Sword (still fairly decent imo) Death's Gate and other series' written by Weis and Hickman and pretty much any fiction published by TSR, I just cringe at how easily pleased I was with genre fiction as a kid.

Trying to remember...what was the series with the "we're totally not ripping off muslims and fremen for our desert-dwelling tribe of total badasses guize!" book? Only other things I really remember was the white femboi wizard who desperately wanted to gargle the nutsack of the Stilgar-like leader of the tribe, and the djinn who thirsted after an angel for three whole fucking books. :hambone:
Exactly. Weis and Hickman books are a great introduction to fantasy but it's very much edgy teenager's first fantasy books. Especially when you read the books with a knowledge of Mormonism and realize how much it pervades all their books (especially the first Dragonlance book).

You're thinking of Rose of the Prophet. I read the whole trilogy and I remember almost nothing about it, so I take that to mean it was bad.
 

The Un-Clit

After the Dimensional Merge, pussy eats YOU!
True & Honest Fan
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You're thinking of Rose of the Prophet. I read the whole trilogy and I remember almost nothing about it, so I take that to mean it was bad.

THAT'S the one! Thankies. And yep, I remember at the time thinking Weis and Hickman were all done. That they had beaten the 'sophomore slump' with their first non-Dragonlance co-operative work the Darksword trilogy, but that this Rose of the Prophet shit was a serious let-down.
 
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Gimmick Account

最初はいつも痛いけど感じてくると甘噛みしてほしい
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I loved this series as an edgy teen. I barely remember the plot but I know it had a lot of unique ideas among everything else I'd read, at least to a kid that didn't have anyone to play pen & paper stuff with (but otherwise eventually worked through the entire sci-fi/fantasy aisle at the local library. Dragonlance was sweet too). I still think about them fairly regularly when I'm coming up with settings or magic systems.

There was also a game which nobody ever talks about.

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Pretty cool as adventure games go but it didn't really live up to the novels. Nice art but kinda lame aesthetically since they went generic fantasy with everything that felt like it should have had a much weirder and grander scope. And Haplo keeps his shirt on??

It's also weird how the second, fourth and sixth books are steamy and sexual (especially the second) but the others are ... not. Shouldn't it all be one way or the other?
With two authors tag-teaming you can pretty much assume what happened there.
Oddly I don't remember the books being sexy at all (strange since other dnd shit I read back then really stuck in my mind, like that time in the Labyrinth books where a Yoshimitsu had to eat spider-lady pussy because she was pon-farring and would have raped one of the human heroes then bitten his head off otherwise), but I do recall bullshitting about Haplo's crap to flirt with some wiccan chick in art class so I must have known it had that potential.
 

Ginger Piglet

Burglar of Jess Phillips MP
True & Honest Fan
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Pretty cool as adventure games go but it didn't really live up to the novels. Nice art but kinda lame aesthetically since they went generic fantasy with everything that felt like it should have had a much weirder and grander scope. And Haplo keeps his shirt on??

This is so true. I mean, it's obvious that the Tribus Elves were Ancien Regime France, the Qundiniar clan were from a bodice-ripping regency romance, the Gegs were steampunk dwarf trade unionists, and Balthazar's people from Telestia were all American Gothic. But nope, just generic fantasy everything.

Legend Entertainment did another game in the same engine based on The Sword of Shannara (actually a sort of interquel between Sword and Elfstones) and it did exactly the same things, EVEN THOUGH IT INCLUDED OLD WORLD RUINS FROM THE TECHNOLOGICALLY ADVANCED PAST WHICH IS CANON TO THE SETTING.
 
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