Kiwi Farms
After reading through this thread I decided to rework it to encompass ALL petsites and not just one specific incident on one website.
For those of you sane people, a pet site or 'pet sim' is a game where you breed animals in order to get prettier animals. Most of these games are odd but harmless and even kind of fun. But it attracts the WORST people.
Exhibit A:
This particular user was centered around some hot mess about how they act like a complete moron.
My favorite incident is one where users of Lioden were claiming to be victim of trypophobia, headaches, anxiety attacks, and fucking SEIZURES because of one of the still patterns presented on the site, called Rumble. The staff remained professional through the userbase's bullshit and didn't cater to them. Userbase proceeds to lose their shit by causing issues and revealing members of staff's names which are intended to be anonymous.
As mentioned by a few comments on this thread, one of the biggest lolcows on Lioden is Jax. I haven't heard of them till recently but boy does he set himself up for pure gold.
For those of you sane people, a pet site or 'pet sim' is a game where you breed animals in order to get prettier animals. Most of these games are odd but harmless and even kind of fun. But it attracts the WORST people.
Exhibit A:
This particular user was centered around some hot mess about how they act like a complete moron.
My favorite incident is one where users of Lioden were claiming to be victim of trypophobia, headaches, anxiety attacks, and fucking SEIZURES because of one of the still patterns presented on the site, called Rumble. The staff remained professional through the userbase's bullshit and didn't cater to them. Userbase proceeds to lose their shit by causing issues and revealing members of staff's names which are intended to be anonymous.
Now, the staff of this website not only has to put up with these 'tards, but they do a good job with it too. Every month they have at least one big update to add new things in order to please the rabid userbase. They recently added a marking that users are able to apply to their lions called 'Rumble'.
Is it ugly? Yeah, a little bit, but again it seems relatively harmless!
Until the community decided to sperg out, claiming that it was triggering their Trypophobia. And even worse- there were people claiming that it caused them to go into epileptic seizures. Yes. Those dull colored squiggly lines apparently put someone in the hospital. People were outraged and started demanding the staff get rid of the marking. Staff, having put work into the art, decided to hold a poll to gauge how the community wanted them to handle it.
Okay, so that's 4735 votes to keep the marking, and 772 who want it removed. Keep in mind that this site has ~100,000 individual registered users.
The staff listened to the majority vote and edited the marking
Still ugly but hopefully the userbase calms their tits. They did not.
(posts that are on a white background with "Anonymous Asked" preceding it are from a tumblr blog dedicated to letting users of Lioden vent and rant about issues off site)
Ableism is SO cute
And in order to plug the leak, staff decided to send this message out-
Snowflakes did not like that.
From that point onwards, users began to flood the chat and forums with hostile and rude comments towards other players and staff, as well as straight up breaking rules.
For reference, I would like to mention that I was present during the time this was going down. I didn't get any screenshots because I didn't believe that it would escalate at the time. Users were not simply calmly asking about what was going on, many of them were attempting to provoke the moderators of the site by baiting people into argue about Rumble. Staff delete messages that break the rules.
Users would purposefully break rules and then claim that the mods were being like 'dictators' for reprimanding them. Anyone who tried to defend the staff's actions were promptly called 'modjockeys' and 'bootlickers'
At this point, the moderators had paused the main chat. That didn't stop some vigilantes from posting in the 'help' chatroom.
This user was then chat banned by mods. They retaliated by decorating their profile page accordingly.
And then this hero, known as Apollo, decides to step up and speak out. This man, this brave man, had a seizure from the squiggly lines and contacted the admins!
"If I have to wait a full fucking hour to get a response, I’m going to call them out for that. Also plan on mentioning that this isn’t the first time staff has ignored the userbase."
(The site is based in the UK and most of the admins were asleep when this was sent in)
And then, another layer to the drama gets added.
Something to elaborate is that in 2019, site staff implemented a feature that made all moderators anonymous. Admins and other moderators can still see what they do, but the average user will have no idea which moderator they're dealing with. This change was made to prevent the userbase from witchhunting certain mods if they didn't like the decisions that were made.
The staff, however, made a huge mistake in leaving the development server untouched! The development server is used to implement new features, and only mods and admins are known to use it. For some reason, no one thought to disable the general public from seeing the site, which caused names to get leaked. The development site is known as "Liodev"
While this was very stupid on the staff's part, it seems a little unreasonable that all these people are going about revealing the personal identities of Moderators just because of the decisions being made.
After the staff was made aware of this, they killed the site so nobody can access it. This didn't stop people from trying to get in. The tumblr hackermen used their trusty 'inspect element' tool to uncover this:
Along with the lowest resolution screenshot in the world, the user submitted the following comment: "My last submission on the links with the developer website. I'm not a minor, and these are just porn-related links on the developer website. It's not the worst thing, but it just rubs me the wrong way personally. Cheers. "
This user failed to realize that those links were the sites that they had listed on their adblocking software.
And then, Staff finally gives an actual, concrete response.
The Staff did the correct move, and a large majority of users supported them. The staff contacted legal and medical professionals in order to assure the marking wouldn't cause any issues.
You can see where this is going.
(Yes cuz you guys are so good at following rules, lol)
(Amazing username)
And that is where we lay currently. Using the website is a headache and dealing with people who use the website are even worse.
The Lioden Drama blogs are https://lionews.tumblr.com/ and https://lionews2.tumblr.com/
Advice and criticism on this post are appreciated, it's my first time attempting to do anything.
This is the way the world ends, this is the way the world ends.
Not with a bang,
But with a
EDIT:
TRIGGER WARNING: AUTISM PRESENT
Is it ugly? Yeah, a little bit, but again it seems relatively harmless!
Until the community decided to sperg out, claiming that it was triggering their Trypophobia. And even worse- there were people claiming that it caused them to go into epileptic seizures. Yes. Those dull colored squiggly lines apparently put someone in the hospital. People were outraged and started demanding the staff get rid of the marking. Staff, having put work into the art, decided to hold a poll to gauge how the community wanted them to handle it.
Okay, so that's 4735 votes to keep the marking, and 772 who want it removed. Keep in mind that this site has ~100,000 individual registered users.
The staff listened to the majority vote and edited the marking
Still ugly but hopefully the userbase calms their tits. They did not.
(posts that are on a white background with "Anonymous Asked" preceding it are from a tumblr blog dedicated to letting users of Lioden vent and rant about issues off site)
Ableism is SO cute
And in order to plug the leak, staff decided to send this message out-
Snowflakes did not like that.
From that point onwards, users began to flood the chat and forums with hostile and rude comments towards other players and staff, as well as straight up breaking rules.
honestly disgusted with the way lioden mods are handling all this, “short staffed” and “well-meaning” or not. they can’t stand any player criticism and even innocent questions are treated as attacks.
i’m sure by now y'all know that the chat was paused- why? i witnessed the whole thing happen in real time. basically, a bunch of players were asking why rumble is even controversial. people were explaining- calmly - about the possible health risks as testified by NUMEROUS people. and y'know what? after those explanations were posted, people started calming down. things like “well i like rumble but its not worth it if it hurts people’ were being said. sure, some people were being super ableist, but there were only two people i can remember specifically saying mean things.
out of nowhere, the mod team comes in and tells everyone to stop discussing "how rumble causes epilepsy, because its hearsay.” for one thing, people were explaining how it COULD trigger epileptic attacks. for another, hearsay? what? they said it was because they had no “formal complaints” that no one had the right to bring that up….apparently…
the discussion stopped for about two minutes and then someone must have said something because when i came back chat was paused.
in the help chat, a player innocently asked what happened to pause main chat. y'know, a perfectly valid question to ask in the HELP chat. here’s the screenshot.
and then the mod’s ever helpful, ever kind response (sarcasm here from me, obviously):
I did see one person say, “Why are the mods instantly deleting my messages?” and then get, instantly deleted, but I don’t know what they said before this or if they said anything after. As far as I’m aware, this is all that needed to be said for the mods to suddenly slam down the silence hammer.
i’m sorry, but i’m genuinely furious with the irresponsibility and lack of transparency the staff is handling this with. this isn’t just “drama,” this isn’t “hearsay.” this is real people speaking to you hoping for a solution and you didn’t listen until you were forced to. and any attempts to explain on-site, peacefully, WHY the marks were hurting people is met with accusations of drama-mongering and hearsay.
the lioden mods don’t care about their players. sorry to sound harsh, but they don’t. they only care about their own reputation and the money they get from players.
EDIT: lmao as I was typing this they added something to the chat. lovely;
“Actions against your account,” huh? Lioden mods really, really like to silence any issues players have, It’s unethical, it’s disrespectful, and it’s a bad way to run a website.
i’m sure by now y'all know that the chat was paused- why? i witnessed the whole thing happen in real time. basically, a bunch of players were asking why rumble is even controversial. people were explaining- calmly - about the possible health risks as testified by NUMEROUS people. and y'know what? after those explanations were posted, people started calming down. things like “well i like rumble but its not worth it if it hurts people’ were being said. sure, some people were being super ableist, but there were only two people i can remember specifically saying mean things.
out of nowhere, the mod team comes in and tells everyone to stop discussing "how rumble causes epilepsy, because its hearsay.” for one thing, people were explaining how it COULD trigger epileptic attacks. for another, hearsay? what? they said it was because they had no “formal complaints” that no one had the right to bring that up….apparently…
the discussion stopped for about two minutes and then someone must have said something because when i came back chat was paused.
in the help chat, a player innocently asked what happened to pause main chat. y'know, a perfectly valid question to ask in the HELP chat. here’s the screenshot.
and then the mod’s ever helpful, ever kind response (sarcasm here from me, obviously):
I did see one person say, “Why are the mods instantly deleting my messages?” and then get, instantly deleted, but I don’t know what they said before this or if they said anything after. As far as I’m aware, this is all that needed to be said for the mods to suddenly slam down the silence hammer.
i’m sorry, but i’m genuinely furious with the irresponsibility and lack of transparency the staff is handling this with. this isn’t just “drama,” this isn’t “hearsay.” this is real people speaking to you hoping for a solution and you didn’t listen until you were forced to. and any attempts to explain on-site, peacefully, WHY the marks were hurting people is met with accusations of drama-mongering and hearsay.
the lioden mods don’t care about their players. sorry to sound harsh, but they don’t. they only care about their own reputation and the money they get from players.
EDIT: lmao as I was typing this they added something to the chat. lovely;
“Actions against your account,” huh? Lioden mods really, really like to silence any issues players have, It’s unethical, it’s disrespectful, and it’s a bad way to run a website.
For reference, I would like to mention that I was present during the time this was going down. I didn't get any screenshots because I didn't believe that it would escalate at the time. Users were not simply calmly asking about what was going on, many of them were attempting to provoke the moderators of the site by baiting people into argue about Rumble. Staff delete messages that break the rules.
Users would purposefully break rules and then claim that the mods were being like 'dictators' for reprimanding them. Anyone who tried to defend the staff's actions were promptly called 'modjockeys' and 'bootlickers'
At this point, the moderators had paused the main chat. That didn't stop some vigilantes from posting in the 'help' chatroom.
This user was then chat banned by mods. They retaliated by decorating their profile page accordingly.
And then this hero, known as Apollo, decides to step up and speak out. This man, this brave man, had a seizure from the squiggly lines and contacted the admins!
"If I have to wait a full fucking hour to get a response, I’m going to call them out for that. Also plan on mentioning that this isn’t the first time staff has ignored the userbase."
(The site is based in the UK and most of the admins were asleep when this was sent in)
And then, another layer to the drama gets added.
Something to elaborate is that in 2019, site staff implemented a feature that made all moderators anonymous. Admins and other moderators can still see what they do, but the average user will have no idea which moderator they're dealing with. This change was made to prevent the userbase from witchhunting certain mods if they didn't like the decisions that were made.
The staff, however, made a huge mistake in leaving the development server untouched! The development server is used to implement new features, and only mods and admins are known to use it. For some reason, no one thought to disable the general public from seeing the site, which caused names to get leaked. The development site is known as "Liodev"
While this was very stupid on the staff's part, it seems a little unreasonable that all these people are going about revealing the personal identities of Moderators just because of the decisions being made.
After the staff was made aware of this, they killed the site so nobody can access it. This didn't stop people from trying to get in. The tumblr hackermen used their trusty 'inspect element' tool to uncover this:
Along with the lowest resolution screenshot in the world, the user submitted the following comment: "My last submission on the links with the developer website. I'm not a minor, and these are just porn-related links on the developer website. It's not the worst thing, but it just rubs me the wrong way personally. Cheers. "
This user failed to realize that those links were the sites that they had listed on their adblocking software.
And then, Staff finally gives an actual, concrete response.
News post can be read here- https://www.lioden.com/topic.php?id=304429397359
Rumble Markings
As per our last news post, we would like to give you an update on the status of the rumble markings.
We have had a small number of threads over the past few days pop up discussing this marking with comments ranging from dislike of the marking, to the marking making them feel uncomfortable, to the marking having the potential to cause a seizure. We take comments like this very seriously and went further to investigate this.
Today, we sought legal clarification over the marking. We have been advised that we are compliant and meet all legal requirements and there is no reason that the marking should be removed from the game or that any additional warning notice needs to be given out. Additionally, the marking itself was not flagged as a typical risk.
However, we have decided to go above and beyond the requirements and have added a warning to our Terms of Service. This also concerns user submitted content. Users can display content of their choice (within reason, and assuming it complies with our Terms and Code of Conduct) on their den pages, in their avatars, lion bios, topic posts, etc. Most of these are not moderated in advance, and only when they are reported to us, so we feel it is now prudent to include this warning in our terms regardless.
We must ask that if you have noticed any adverse effects while accessing Lioden at any point, to discontinue use of the site immediately and seek medical help from a physician.
Rumble markings are now back on the site and the applicator has returned to Vashkartzen’s reputation shop. We will be keeping them in the second, revised version that was posted recently.
Rather than discuss this ad nauseum, we have made a final decision, and we will not be accepting any new suggestion threads, petitions or campaigns for the marking to be removed or adjusted. The marking can be discussed, but when the discussion descends into fighting, disrespect or bashing of the site and staff, you will be asked to stop discussing it. Failure to comply will result in action taken against your account. This is the same as any other topic discussed on Lioden.
Due to some of the conduct on the site from a small minority of players recently, we feel that we need to remind users of the Terms of Service point 6.2.b:
“You also agree that you will not in connection with the Game:
publish or send any Content (including links or references to other content), or otherwise behave in a manner, which:
is defamatory, threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive, vulgar, racist, hateful, discriminatory, obscene, pornographic, sexually suggestive, misleading, abusive or deceptive or which attacks sexual orientation, promotes self-harm or eating disorders, involves murder, rape, suicide, terrorism, excessive gore or hacking;”
Chat
In light of recent events, we've implemented a filter in the chat room. Certain words and/or phrases are now blocked, and attempting to use them will result in you being timed out from posting in chat for 60 seconds. Intentionally attempting to get around this filter will result in actions being taken against your account, as the filter itself contains very serious words and phrases that we have never allowed to be used.
Staff members are now able to timeout players for 60 seconds as well, to assist with anyone that is intentionally causing issues in chat. Please continue to flag and report inappropriate messages as you see them, however.
Along with this chat update, we have also implemented a way for players to disable the visual ping effects. You can find this toggle under the gear settings in chat. This toggle is stored to your account and carries over through devices. You can turn on and turn off ping effects as necessary.
Admin Edit: Main Chat will remain paused for the rest of the day. We will look into unpausing Main Chat during EU morning hours. Thank you for your patience.
Rumble Markings
As per our last news post, we would like to give you an update on the status of the rumble markings.
We have had a small number of threads over the past few days pop up discussing this marking with comments ranging from dislike of the marking, to the marking making them feel uncomfortable, to the marking having the potential to cause a seizure. We take comments like this very seriously and went further to investigate this.
Today, we sought legal clarification over the marking. We have been advised that we are compliant and meet all legal requirements and there is no reason that the marking should be removed from the game or that any additional warning notice needs to be given out. Additionally, the marking itself was not flagged as a typical risk.
However, we have decided to go above and beyond the requirements and have added a warning to our Terms of Service. This also concerns user submitted content. Users can display content of their choice (within reason, and assuming it complies with our Terms and Code of Conduct) on their den pages, in their avatars, lion bios, topic posts, etc. Most of these are not moderated in advance, and only when they are reported to us, so we feel it is now prudent to include this warning in our terms regardless.
We must ask that if you have noticed any adverse effects while accessing Lioden at any point, to discontinue use of the site immediately and seek medical help from a physician.
Rumble markings are now back on the site and the applicator has returned to Vashkartzen’s reputation shop. We will be keeping them in the second, revised version that was posted recently.
Rather than discuss this ad nauseum, we have made a final decision, and we will not be accepting any new suggestion threads, petitions or campaigns for the marking to be removed or adjusted. The marking can be discussed, but when the discussion descends into fighting, disrespect or bashing of the site and staff, you will be asked to stop discussing it. Failure to comply will result in action taken against your account. This is the same as any other topic discussed on Lioden.
Due to some of the conduct on the site from a small minority of players recently, we feel that we need to remind users of the Terms of Service point 6.2.b:
“You also agree that you will not in connection with the Game:
publish or send any Content (including links or references to other content), or otherwise behave in a manner, which:
is defamatory, threatening, harassing, invasive of privacy, offensive, vulgar, racist, hateful, discriminatory, obscene, pornographic, sexually suggestive, misleading, abusive or deceptive or which attacks sexual orientation, promotes self-harm or eating disorders, involves murder, rape, suicide, terrorism, excessive gore or hacking;”
Chat
In light of recent events, we've implemented a filter in the chat room. Certain words and/or phrases are now blocked, and attempting to use them will result in you being timed out from posting in chat for 60 seconds. Intentionally attempting to get around this filter will result in actions being taken against your account, as the filter itself contains very serious words and phrases that we have never allowed to be used.
Staff members are now able to timeout players for 60 seconds as well, to assist with anyone that is intentionally causing issues in chat. Please continue to flag and report inappropriate messages as you see them, however.
Along with this chat update, we have also implemented a way for players to disable the visual ping effects. You can find this toggle under the gear settings in chat. This toggle is stored to your account and carries over through devices. You can turn on and turn off ping effects as necessary.
Admin Edit: Main Chat will remain paused for the rest of the day. We will look into unpausing Main Chat during EU morning hours. Thank you for your patience.
The Staff did the correct move, and a large majority of users supported them. The staff contacted legal and medical professionals in order to assure the marking wouldn't cause any issues.
You can see where this is going.
(Yes cuz you guys are so good at following rules, lol)
(Amazing username)
Post from Lionews blog: https://archive.md/LSZEL
Not posting as anon because it ruins the point of this. I’m the one who posted petty things against the staff, such as…
Honestly, I thought that saying this alone would get my account terminated. I was sorely wrong, and it took much more effort than that. I gave away everything I owned, including my lions, apps, etc. Threw them into the giving tree or chased them. The post was quickly locked, but I got no response to it, oddly enough. Take into account my main lion’s name here, Randevu. It’ll be important for later.
I received a warning and a minor penalty on my account for creating multiple trades, 1 sb for 1 sb, titled “Rumble causes Seizures”. This didn’t satisfy me. No, I was determined to get suspended for my outcry against Rumble.
After I posted ‘dang’, I was chat and forum suspended. I was stumped, I didn’t know how to get myself banned from the site without outright being disrespectful and harmful towards the staff. But then a friend of mine suggestion something to me - a raffle.
After making this raffle, it was already very late where I lived, and I was tired. So, I decided that I was going to call it a night and continue trying to get banned by talking about Rumble tomorrow. When I awoke, I was greeted with this.
I was both astounded and overjoyed. I had proved my point. Also, what is the section within the Code of Conduct (1.17) that they are siting? Well, as I no longer have access to the site, let me paraphrase. Feel free to correct me if I mistakenly am remembering. In short, it was to 'cease speaking about something once it was already told to be dropped by a moderator or admin’. If you look at my other warnings, you can see this same section of the code of conduct was sited, even during my first warning. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Either way.
Here’s further proof that it was, indeed, me who was suspended. Check the ID, name, and the main lion name.
And with that, I conclude this fight. Trying to prove a point to the world that, in an attempt to warn players about the dangers of the Rumble markings, the admins silenced me, afraid of the legal repercussions.
Not posting as anon because it ruins the point of this. I’m the one who posted petty things against the staff, such as…
Honestly, I thought that saying this alone would get my account terminated. I was sorely wrong, and it took much more effort than that. I gave away everything I owned, including my lions, apps, etc. Threw them into the giving tree or chased them. The post was quickly locked, but I got no response to it, oddly enough. Take into account my main lion’s name here, Randevu. It’ll be important for later.
I received a warning and a minor penalty on my account for creating multiple trades, 1 sb for 1 sb, titled “Rumble causes Seizures”. This didn’t satisfy me. No, I was determined to get suspended for my outcry against Rumble.
After I posted ‘dang’, I was chat and forum suspended. I was stumped, I didn’t know how to get myself banned from the site without outright being disrespectful and harmful towards the staff. But then a friend of mine suggestion something to me - a raffle.
After making this raffle, it was already very late where I lived, and I was tired. So, I decided that I was going to call it a night and continue trying to get banned by talking about Rumble tomorrow. When I awoke, I was greeted with this.
I was both astounded and overjoyed. I had proved my point. Also, what is the section within the Code of Conduct (1.17) that they are siting? Well, as I no longer have access to the site, let me paraphrase. Feel free to correct me if I mistakenly am remembering. In short, it was to 'cease speaking about something once it was already told to be dropped by a moderator or admin’. If you look at my other warnings, you can see this same section of the code of conduct was sited, even during my first warning. Doesn’t make much sense to me. Either way.
Here’s further proof that it was, indeed, me who was suspended. Check the ID, name, and the main lion name.And with that, I conclude this fight. Trying to prove a point to the world that, in an attempt to warn players about the dangers of the Rumble markings, the admins silenced me, afraid of the legal repercussions.
And that is where we lay currently. Using the website is a headache and dealing with people who use the website are even worse.
The Lioden Drama blogs are https://lionews.tumblr.com/ and https://lionews2.tumblr.com/
Advice and criticism on this post are appreciated, it's my first time attempting to do anything.
This is the way the world ends, this is the way the world ends.
Not with a bang,
But with a
EDIT:
TRIGGER WARNING: AUTISM PRESENT
As mentioned by a few comments on this thread, one of the biggest lolcows on Lioden is Jax. I haven't heard of them till recently but boy does he set himself up for pure gold.
Jax has been playing Lioden since 2016, and in that time he has made everyone on the site miserable. He's had enough run ins with the mods/admins that he's permanently chat banned. He likes to parade that he was innocent and not doing anything, when he was warned several times before and continued causing issues.
He seems to a be a holier than thou type who thinks that he's not able to do anything wrong. He boasts on his blog (https://jax-hammer.tumblr.com/) (Archive: https://archive.vn/DErDz) a "Lioden Blacklist" where he names several members of Lioden for their heinous crimes such as pricing their sales lower than him.
The page is so long I couldn't even get it in one screenshot.
Not only does Jax continue the circlejerk concerning the Rumble Drama, but apparently he's begun to hold art contests for this movement that will absolutely be a major success.
During the rumble drama, Apollo used Jax as his soapbox, romance bloomed.
He seems to a be a holier than thou type who thinks that he's not able to do anything wrong. He boasts on his blog (https://jax-hammer.tumblr.com/) (Archive: https://archive.vn/DErDz) a "Lioden Blacklist" where he names several members of Lioden for their heinous crimes such as pricing their sales lower than him.
The page is so long I couldn't even get it in one screenshot.
Not only does Jax continue the circlejerk concerning the Rumble Drama, but apparently he's begun to hold art contests for this movement that will absolutely be a major success.
During the rumble drama, Apollo used Jax as his soapbox, romance bloomed.
Apollo makes his first appearance on Jax's blog.
Jax confirms that he cannot read and don't know what "Rules" and "Consequences" are.
In a fateful encounter, Apollo rises from his seizure once more-
Someone raises a legitimate concern over Apollo's claim of having a seizure. Jax fails to realize that stupid people do things for stupid reasons. I.E, Apollo could very well have lied for something stupid.
Apollo is making another appearance! Users have requested to see his userlogs (A log of activity a user has done on the site and timestamps of when it was done) to make sure he's telling the truth. No word on that... It doesn't really seem out of the question to ask for basic proof?
Jax confirms that he cannot read and don't know what "Rules" and "Consequences" are.
In a fateful encounter, Apollo rises from his seizure once more-
Someone raises a legitimate concern over Apollo's claim of having a seizure. Jax fails to realize that stupid people do things for stupid reasons. I.E, Apollo could very well have lied for something stupid.
Apollo is making another appearance! Users have requested to see his userlogs (A log of activity a user has done on the site and timestamps of when it was done) to make sure he's telling the truth. No word on that... It doesn't really seem out of the question to ask for basic proof?