The fall of the West - When, where and how?

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Michael Wade

Jesus Christ is king, the way, and the life.
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China's a house of cards waiting for a stiff breeze and their tenuous position is reflected in how much weenie-wagging they've been doing lately. They're on the verge of economic and demographic implosion and if you think they wouldn't try something fucking stupid to try and avert the consequences of their own dipshit mistakes I have a Chinese bridge to sell you.

I don't really know if India appreciates how bad its current position is, but being China's neighbor is not a good thing to be right now on top of all their internal shit.
Do you see em using nukes effectively? They just build a bunch of em secretly under Biden's watch.
 

Absurdist Laughter

Honesty about my dishonesty is the policy.
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I don't really know if India appreciates how bad its current position is, but being China's neighbor is not a good thing to be right now on top of all their internal shit.
Yet they have more secure elections than our own. The doom and gloom in OP's post is really just that and nothing more, we are nowhere near Roman Empire; China is. We just got loud mouths exercising their rights to speak freely. Unfortunately, that isn't enough for them so they overstep and receive no punishment; as they should. The wrecking ball always swings back to take out the foundation beams.
 

TFT-A9

Time for a crusade
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Yet they have more secure elections than our own. The doom and gloom in OP's post is really just that and nothing more, we are nowhere near Roman Empire; China is. We just got loud mouths exercising their rights to speak freely. Unfortunately, that isn't enough for them so they overstep and receive no punishment; as they should. The wrecking ball always swings back to take out the foundation beams.
The fall of the Roman Empire did not just affect the Romans.
Do you see em using nukes effectively? They just build a bunch of em secretly under Biden's watch.
If we end up switching "Crazy Ivan" for "Demented Ding" I don't think we'll have too long to laugh about it. I consider China more alarming than I ever considered the Soviets to be.
 

I Love Beef

OH YEAHHUH, SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM
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My second guess would be "anime porn".
You kidding me? Years of censorship in US modern sequential arts and Europe and the US huffing their own farts while proclaiming their comics are best have contributed to utter stagnation of progressing artistic and creative endeavors, let alone brainpower out west. If the US had an entertainment/animation and comics industry on par with Japan, we wouldn't have this fucking problem.

We're arguing about videogames
And I am going to go full on autistic about this shit.

You want to know why the greats like Maxwell, Edison, and Einstein were able to come up with their groundbreaking theorems about reality, matter, energy, and the fundamentals of the universe? They weren't fedoralords who were self centered fags, or luddites and biblethumpers who awaited the Second Coming, they were creative people who also had a great positive interest in the world around them and continued to have a sense of wonder. I say this because "insanity is doing something the same way over again and expecting different results." Edison may have made a lightbulb 10,000 times to get it to work, but fucking A, at least he figured out flaws and studied and figured out shit to get it right.

About 100 some years later, and in the information age, where schools are more focused on garnering test score medians and educational standards to quota, where the arts are full of nostalgic dipshits too hipstering out for the past, where graduates (and dropouts) are meant to be perfectly molded for the workforce, and where even society is meant to keep this going along, I am not surprised at how the dynamics of all of this fucks over the creative and curious part of the brain. If you want my honest opinion, here's a tin foil hat: the corporations and the government doesn't want creativity.

If you ask me, exposure to creativity is feared these days because it gets people thinking beyond their paradigms, and you can't reign in and have a legal flock of slaves plebs to parade around to die for you if they don't think a certain way you want them to. Think about all of the stuff in the past that has been picketed by the morality squads and "for the family" fuckers. Comics, video games, animation, rock n' roll, what do these things have in common? They are rooted in the arts and to be creative to get any output for its workload. Exposure to art spreads by inspiration. Can't have that now!

And I hate to take a dig at our pasttime, but, you want to know why we get spergs like Chris Chan and spastic weeaboos and hardcore furries? They have no outlet for their creativity. If anything, I'd have to conclude that's what the glowfuckers want. When you can't win a war feasibly, turn to the devil. Great going there.

This boils back to how we should have found solutions or should be in the process of doing that, but nope! Money, political power, egotism, that's more important.

tl;dr Insanity is an aspect of poor government, and a lack and/or restriction of creativity is a sign of something more fucky going on. Let's keep going, because this shit is interesting.
 

Least Concern

Pretend I have a Cryptoland pfp like everyone else
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Do I need to bring up how Ganges River pumps so much human waste into the Indian Ocean that the currents take it as far as Patagonia?
If you're thinking of that image which purports to show the amount of human feces in seawater in the Indian Ocean, it's a fake. Nobody is going out and measuring fecal concentration at various points in the middle of the ocean. Someone just took a picture showing the effects of the south Asian tsunami of the mid-'00s and put a silly caption on it.
 

TFT-A9

Time for a crusade
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I'm not making that argument, that it didn't. I'm just saying, we aren't as bad as it seems.
I certainly hope you're right, but I'm looking over my shoulder at every other possibility.
You kidding me? Years of censorship in US modern sequential arts and Europe and the US huffing their own farts while proclaiming their comics are best have contributed to utter stagnation of progressing artistic and creative endeavors, let alone brainpower out west. If the US had an entertainment/animation and comics industry on par with Japan, we wouldn't have this fucking problem.


And I am going to go full on autistic about this shit.

You want to know why the greats like Maxwell, Edison, and Einstein were able to come up with their groundbreaking theorems about reality, matter, energy, and the fundamentals of the universe? They weren't fedoralords who were self centered fags, or luddites and biblethumpers who awaited the Second Coming, they were creative people who also had a great positive interest in the world around them and continued to have a sense of wonder. I say this because "insanity is doing something the same way over again and expecting different results." Edison may have made a lightbulb 10,000 times to get it to work, but fucking A, at least he figured out flaws and studied and figured out shit to get it right.

About 100 some years later, and in the information age, where schools are more focused on garnering test score medians and educational standards to quota, where the arts are full of nostalgic dipshits too hipstering out for the past, where graduates (and dropouts) are meant to be perfectly molded for the workforce, and where even society is meant to keep this going along, I am not surprised at how the dynamics of all of this fucks over the creative and curious part of the brain. If you want my honest opinion, here's a tin foil hat: the corporations and the government doesn't want creativity.

If you ask me, exposure to creativity is feared these days because it gets people thinking beyond their paradigms, and you can't reign in and have a legal flock of slaves plebs to parade around to die for you if they don't think a certain way you want them to. Think about all of the stuff in the past that has been picketed by the morality squads and "for the family" fuckers. Comics, video games, animation, rock n' roll, what do these things have in common? They are rooted in the arts and to be creative to get any output for its workload. Exposure to art spreads by inspiration. Can't have that now!

And I hate to take a dig at our pasttime, but, you want to know why we get spergs like Chris Chan and spastic weeaboos and hardcore furries? They have no outlet for their creativity. If anything, I'd have to conclude that's what the glowfuckers want. When you can't win a war feasibly, turn to the devil. Great going there.

This boils back to how we should have found solutions or should be in the process of doing that, but nope! Money, political power, egotism, that's more important.

tl;dr Insanity is an aspect of poor government, and a lack and/or restriction of creativity is a sign of something more fucky going on. Let's keep going, because this shit is interesting.
I'd tie this in to what feels like a collective infantilization of the populace. External loci of emotional control and self-image, the message of government involvement (read: overreach) being perfectly fine and law-abiding citizens have NOTHING to fear, the swings towards immoderate extremes of thought in every direction. For all the world, it looks to me like people are being turned into perpetual children, shallow as puddles and hollow as 55-gallon drums, for "betters" to impress upon and insert their desired systems of thought into.
 

I Love Beef

OH YEAHHUH, SNAP INTO A SLIM JIM
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I'd tie this in to what feels like a collective infantilization of the populace. External loci of emotional control and self-image, the message of government involvement (read: overreach) being perfectly fine and law-abiding citizens have NOTHING to fear, the swings towards immoderate extremes of thought in every direction. For all the world, it looks to me like people are being turned into perpetual children, shallow as puddles and hollow as 55-gallon drums, for "betters" to impress upon and insert their desired systems of thought into.
And all for the War Machine. As well as Big Corporate and the Banks.

Hate to bring in another topic to this, but either America sweeps itself up in rebellion or goes down disunited. That's the only way I see it.
 

Pimpleking55

Devout Degenerate.
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That's the problem - digging deeper and harder, which requires more energy, more expensive and complicated tech perhaps. It's a big enough problem that we're turning to fracking instead to tease out easier to reach oil deposits at the cost of... well, all the problems associated with the process. We might have oceans of oil untouched under the surface, but it's a lot less useful if it takes a lot more energy and resources to extract in the first place.

The problem with shifting away from petroleum on any large scale is that the infrastructure for doing so is spotty at best and utterly absent at worst, which itself is a reflection of how infrastructure is held together with duct tape and fervent prayers in so many places here. Combine this with the NIMBY insanity surrounding nuclear (probably the best bet going forward in areas where geothermal, solar, wind etc. are poor options) for a jawbreaker of a problem with layer after layer of stupid shit, and the oil lobby/petrodollar/OPEC problem (there's a distinct possibility that a massive shift away from petroleum might make the ME so fucking desperate they start doing really stupid shit).

We've avoided picking a poison for long enough that the poison's grown much more concentrated and virulent as it sits on that shelf that we want to forget about because we're comfortable NOW.
I think fracking is more an political problem, like our country for example: We rather mine gas ourselves from an very expensive to dig and crappy gas field rather than to get our gas from Russia and use our crappy gas fields as a last resort. But no cheap gas because Russia bad.
 

wtfNeedSignUp

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1 - We are at each other's throats. We haven't been this politically and religiously divided since the years immediately before WWII, which, if you consider the West to be a single, coherent civilisation, was more of a civil war over ideology and identity than a clash of civilisations. Ditto WWI, the Napoleonic wars and the centuries of conflict between different strains of Christianity. We have been fighting each other for centuries, each war more brutal and ruinous than the last.
No big country has been in actual war for decades.
3 - We have just been hit by the most devastating disease outbreak in a century, aided in its spread by our advanced transportation technology. Even if we recover from this, there's nothing to stop it happening again and just like the other great civilisations before it, it has deepened divisions and mistrust, and led some to violence.
LOL no, Corona's deaths are exaggerated to use it politically.
4 - The response by our governments has been oppression and brutality. Soldiers in the streets in the US, armed rebels being grabbed off the streets by unmarked vans. Most of Western Europe is almost a police state. Previously genteel and quiet places like the UK, Sweden and the Netherlands are murdering their own politicians, who as a result are becoming more secluded and remote from the people they govern. Most major policies are not subject to democratic control any more.
I wish people start minecrafting politicians rather than let the current situation to continue. Besides that everything you said has no basis in reality.
1 - Most estimates suggest that we will run out of fertile topsoil in about 80-90 years. A famine is coming that will make the Holomodor or the Great Leap Forward look like a child whining for ice cream.
2 - We will also most likely run out of economic fossil fuels around this time, and no alternative energy source can yet take its place. We need electricity for everything. Without air conditioning the warmer parts of the world are now uninhabitable. Without heating the cold ones are as well. In the UK and EU, the sale of internal combustion and diesel vehicles will be banned from 2030, making Europe's transportation infrastructure entirely dependent on its creaking power grid. All our information and knowledge is stored in devices that need power. We may look and laugh at the Ancient Egyptians for storing all their knowledge in the Great Library of Alexandria and losing it all when barbarians torched it, but we have been just as foolish. We cannot communicate without power. We cannot grow or distribute food without power. Our armed forces cannot wage war without power. If the grid goes down, the West falls. Bear in mind that in the last 12 months, Texas' power grid failed because it was too cold, and now the PNW/SW Canada's grid is failing because it is too hot.
3 - Speaking of heat, the climate is getting warmer. There's no denying it now. Whether humans caused it or not, it doesn't matter. It's gonna get real fucking hot. So much so that the warmer parts of the world (Africa, India, Central America) are going to become uninhabitable. Never mind crop failures, the temperatures may become unsafe for human life. In a couple of centuries, everything between the tropics will become like the Sahara, and the Sahara will become a scorched hellscape straight out of a Science Fiction novel. Low-lying areas will flood. In the UK, we used to get one catastrophic flood a century. Now we get one every year.
4 - This will force literally billions of people from their homes in search of food. You think immigration is bad now? This ain't shit. A few hundred thousand a year will become hundreds of millions. And these people will not be looking for jobs or benefits. They will be looking for food, and they will be desperate enough to take it by force, like their forebears going back 4500 years. Every single great empire in human history was destroyed by starving nomads created by climate change, disease and famine, and the West will fall to the same cycle. Nomadic hordes are like viruses. They cannot sustain themselves, they have to live by destroying. All the great nomadic conquests either burn themselves out when they run out of civilisation to destroy (Genghis Khan, the Huns, the Timurids) or when they settle and form their own civilisations in the ruins of the ones they destroyed (The Hittites, the Franks, The Vikings).
How is that the problem of western countries? Unless they let every fucking third worlder come in (which they might), the brunt of the damage will affect them.
 

Blamo

N/A
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Want midwit autism?
Actually, I kinda have an issue with saying that the West is falling. That really depends on your social status and other biases. Yes, I dislike the direction of things, but, I can see that, from the current elite and system's perspective past values are worthless. You having a family, friends and community is just getting in the way of business and complicate their top down control.

Is the West falling on an elite level? not really. Considering good luck finding a country beside some relics that are not neo-liberal consumerist countries. Their reliance on globalization will eventually bend their culture to fit into the globohomo mold.

But ultimately, morals and beauty etc. simply don't mean anything for our spreadsheet driven civilization. Many past things need to be re-check for their origins. For example... the 19th century patriotism and nationalism was basically an excuse for local bourgeois to grap the wealth from hereditary aristocracy and create small closed markets for themselves to build up capital. Slower communication, logistics and lack of industrialized culture creation helped countries to keep their own flavor and language for a longer time. Due to mass armies working better, people were given democracy to feel better about themselves.

Now wars are waged by machines and professional soldiers. Capital can instantly go wherever it want and no healthy bodies are needed in factories. So... why even have anything beside androgynous blobs who work their javascript job, then blow all their money of product? Having different groups of people would simply complicate selling products and services. etc. Not to mention people having actual common ground could create their own closed market and economy. Which is the ultimate sin.

tldr: nice things are basically obsolete
 

ToroidalBoat

wat
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hey @Save the Loli

I think you said in the coof thread something like that the powers that shouldn't be are driving the USA to "balkanize". If that happens, what do you think the USA would split into?

Maybe the USA and some leftist place with some "progressive" name?
 

Sped Xing

!Bigfoot! sightings please call 908-314-7784
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Screenshot_20210705-183347~2.png

Honestly it's a relief that it's over.
 

Haim Arlosoroff

We all failed to secure the existence of Linconia.
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I would read Sir John Glubb and Polybius to understand the fate of all nations when the top stagnates and the bottom suffer the effects of changing conditions. In short (I know this will not be short enough for very specific interested parties who share Null's love for Israel) but societies break from the internal factor of changing technology rendering the Upper Classes unable to continue to legitimately hold the power and wealth they've accumulated and the external factor of disease, climate, and the eternal stage of every nation when the fleecing of the American middle class over the past half century – under both parties – has left millions precarious, dependent, and in need in immediate relief.

Soon subsidies will mitigate uncertainty, but also aggravate dependency and undermine productivity. This is not just theory. History’s only other superpower republic – Ancient Rome – never regained its middle class after making its grain dole permanent. Then deregulation and tax reform will come again, citing the golden age when America enjoyed seemingly unlimited productivity and job creation. American corporations are no longer American, but global. They now have foreign elements in their supply chain and workforce. Furthermore, they factually have foreign owners and answer to foreign interests. So unregulated, multinational corporations sell out American workers to the lowest foreign bidder to make an extra dime. It is mathematical and inescapable. The sandwich of conditional dole - behave poors! - and the Dane-geld being paid out to the entirety of the world's economic organization ends the median classes and maximizes the conditions where the most common and durable source of factionalism has ever been found - the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society.

Laissez faire isn’t a solution, it’s Carte Blanche to undercut American workers. The last fifty years of unrestrained capitalism is transforming America into a place that resembles the stratified aristocracies of old Europe more than the hopeful egalitarian Republic which our Founding Fathers established. Likewise, Rome learned the hard way that you cannot restore a productive and independent middle class with subsidies, and that the middling virtues are not quickly revived.

Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government.
-James Madison, Federalist No. 10

America, first from the World Wars and then from the end of the Cold War, has been spoiled. It has left the middle classes to rot, under the combined efforts of racial and capitalist factions, and the logical thing has happened. If this is not corrected, and the rot has already seeped into the economy and the government, then the combined capitalism of changing technologies and geopolitics lending uncertainties to the rich and socialism of changing climates and economies lending uncertainties to the poor will squeeze the middle class completely out. And America will become the very caricature the histories paint of failing empire, hysterical partying - for the end is coming - from the rich and hysterical rioting - for the cause is justice itself - from the poor. It has, I'm sure you can see, already begun.
5abb5769c2388.gif

What is going to happen is simple.

But when a new generation arises and the democracy falls into the hands of the grandchildren of its founders, they have become so accustomed to freedom and equality that they no longer value them, and begin to aim at pre-eminence; and it is chiefly those of ample fortune who fall into this error. So when they begin to lust for power and cannot attain it through themselves or their own good qualities, they ruin their estates, tempting and corrupting the people in every possible way. And hence when by their foolish thirst for reputation they have created among the masses an appetite for gifts and the habit of receiving them, democracy in its turn is abolished and changes into a rule of force and violence. For the people, having grown accustomed to feed at the expense of others and to depend for their livelihood on the property of others, as soon as they find a leader who is enterprising but is excluded from the houses of office by his penury, institute the rule of violence; and now uniting their forces massacre, banish, and plunder, until they degenerate again into perfect savages and find once more a master and monarch.
-Polybius, The Histories
Going forward instead, we could – with only the slightest adjustment to the tax code – cap household net worth at some reasonable multiple of the median net worth (but not tax existing wealth). Every pay cut, tax hike, price increase, hidden cost, layoff, job outsourced, debt, foreclosure, benefit reduction, pay disparity, and machine and algorithm which reduces the wages of a flesh-and-blood American worker – in other words, all forces depressing the median – are computed by the median net worth. Thereafter, the very top could only enjoy further financial gain only when the median gains. The rationale for this is that when the top is anchored to the median, all the energies of most industrial minds would have to also focus on the common goal of increasing the median. This approach would align the interests of the billionaire class to the middle class. But will we? No. For the reforms needed, all without new subsidies, corporate taxes, or business regulations, may already be too late to implement. The geriatric minds of Congress bar the doorway to change, and the only political party that actually runs the country - through the press, universities, and institutions if not the public offices - thinks the rot empowers them with political capital and celebrity.
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The purpose of political faction is to obtain control over policy. Control over policy requires control of the government. The greater the scope and importance of governmental action – that is – the greater the sphere of the government’s operations, the wider the scope of policy, the greater and more intense the faction must be to obtain control over the government. If the way is shut for the necessary reforms then the pressure will build until either of two conditions are met: the impossibility of peaceful revolution strengthening then the inevitable alternative of violent revolution, or the policing and murder of the violent revolutionary faction by the declaration that White Nationalism is the greatest threat America has ever faced. We know which the system - with all its past arguments and current interests - logically chose from its position.

The only alternative to the growing factionalism within America resides within the restoration of a large, robust, moderate, independent middle class. The principal policy of any just faction growing within America's rot must be to restore America’s middle class and social mobility. Whoever holds that narrative holds the power to argue the ultimate issue and chastise the other side's pettiness and defective tunnel vision. Whatever the racism they hold.
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Save the Loli

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hey @Save the Loli

I think you said in the coof thread something like that the powers that shouldn't be are driving the USA to "balkanize". If that happens, what do you think the USA would split into?

Maybe the USA and some leftist place with some "progressive" name?
Probably a West Coast state (Washington, Oregon, California, probably Nevada and Arizona and whatever else the Commiefornians can seize) and an East Coast state (Maine down to Virginia) which are hyper-progressive California-on-steroids hellholes, Hawaii (Chinese puppet state/naval base), Alaska (same as Hawaii but also receives "Chinese immigrants" i.e. prisoners who work in Chinese "employment camps"), and then 1-3 other countries in the middle which are deliberately isolated from the world and subject to glowie infiltration until they install neoliberal governments that rape the land for cheap food and minerals.

I believe they want something like this to divide the US. When we have Civil War II/World War III, I bet they will invite the Chinese military in as a force multiplier since the US military has such insane rot in it that even if 80% supports globohomo the rebels still stand a chance at winning because losers like Chief of Staff Mark "Critical Theory rules" Milley and Lt. Colonel (probably a future general lol) Fatboy Vindman would in an actual war be on par with the average Italian WWII general or Stalin's favorite generals in 1940.