The Great Porn Debate - The Coomites vs Anti-Faparians

Syaoran Li

Manager of the Goth IHOP
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
This "you are a fundamentalist" line is weaksauce. I tried to see to what degree there is flexibility in thinking from both sides with my questions and he demonstrated greater flexibility on the issue than the pro-porners so to speak.

Is the side that is open to reconsider when there is new information the fundamentalist side or is the side that would not budge even in the face of new information the fundamentalist?

The "there has always been porn" argument is a poor one, because it has never been as prevalent as it is today. There is a huge difference to how it is regarded now compared to how it was regarded prior to the sexual revolution and it isn't just the internet that is responsible. I consider Kinsey (and kinsey-inspired playboy), and the birth control pill to be much more instrumental.

Kinsey changed the moral perception of orgasms and gave them a kind of divinity. The kids that tried to fight against being given an orgasm were judged to have benefitted from them because of the pleasure of an orgasm.

Some of Kinsey's ideas filtered into the common consciousness stronger than others, but the hedonists, which the majority of non-religious people seem to be, consider freedom to engage in pleasurable activity sacrosanct.

The fact that nobody so far would consider rethinking their position on pro-porn even if it would be established unequivocally that it is harmful AND that harm could be reduced with either restrictions or a ban SHOULD give you pause and ask yourself to which degree you are a fundamentalist hedonist.
See, I'd be open to the anti-porn side if they can provide a valid argument for their case, and a valid solution to the problem. However, all they ever seem to spout is moral bullshit for their arguments and prohibition for their solution.

The problem with the average anti-porn argument is that prohibition simply does not work. We saw it with alcohol in the 1920's and our society is just now realizing how badly prohibition of drugs has backfired for the past fifty years. Even with the unique addictive properties and lethality of certain hard drugs like meth, cocaine, or heroin, prohibition has done nothing to stop the problem and in many cases, it has made society worse.

Prohibition of porn would be even more detrimental to society, just like prohibition of alcohol was in the 1920's. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in.

As for being a fundamentalist, there isn't any concrete information that proves porn is specifically more harmful than other vices when responsibly consumed by adults and even if there were, the only solutions that are consistently being proposed are ineffective at best and exponentially counterproductive at worst.

Honestly, I'd be more open to the anti-porn side's arguments if they could successfully pull off these three things.


1. Provide concrete proof of porn being uniquely detrimental compared to other vices or forms of media, with at least two or three credible sources. Again, keep in mind that I'm talking about adults viewing porn. I do agree that minors should not have easy access to porn.

2. Provide a reasonable solution the problem that could actually be effective. Simply banning it and revoking any First Amendment protections it has is not a viable solution.

3. Not invoke morality arguments like "muh degeneracy", "muh traditionalism", or "muh World Jewry"
 

Book Thievery

あっち! こっち!
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Eventually, you'll get bored of the porn you usually watch, the most crucial question is how far/low you're willing to go just for porn to be satisfying again? Some people descend, going in to more extreme porn, sometimes going in to child porn. Even if you don't go down to that level, it'll probably hurt to find out what degenerate porn you now watch. Porn is just not worth it, use your imagination if you need to.

As for banning, we regulate drugs, guns and other things that could cause obvious harm. I don't really see porn as free speech as it's a completely different thing.
Kind of late, but I think this is a massive slippery slope argument with ample amounts of projection. One can consume fairly vanilla porn regularly and still not go bored with it. One does not simply go from watching people fuck normally to watching midgets skull-fuck decapitated heads. Chances are, the people watching that kind of shit were fucked up to begin with. All the internet has done is simply make that kind of shit more accessible to the weirdoes who want to consume it. If you can't watch porn without being tempted to view the edgier shit, that's a you problem, not an everyone problem.
 

Lemmingwise

Judging you internally
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
See, I'd be open to the anti-porn side if they can provide a valid argument for their case, and a valid solution to the problem. However, all they ever seem to spout is moral bullshit for their arguments and prohibition for their solution.

The problem with the average anti-porn argument is that prohibition simply does not work. We saw it with alcohol in the 1920's and our society is just now realizing how badly prohibition of drugs has backfired for the past fifty years. Even with the unique addictive properties and lethality of certain hard drugs like meth, cocaine, or heroin, prohibition has done nothing to stop the problem and in many cases, it has made society worse.

Prohibition of porn would be even more detrimental to society, just like prohibition of alcohol was in the 1920's. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in.

As for being a fundamentalist, there isn't any concrete information that proves porn is specifically more harmful than other vices when responsibly consumed by adults and even if there were, the only solutions that are consistently being proposed are ineffective at best and exponentially counterproductive at worst.

Honestly, I'd be more open to the anti-porn side's arguments if they could successfully pull off these three things.


1. Provide concrete proof of porn being uniquely detrimental compared to other vices or forms of media, with at least two or three credible sources. Again, keep in mind that I'm talking about adults viewing porn. I do agree that minors should not have easy access to porn.

2. Provide a reasonable solution the problem that could actually be effective. Simply banning it and revoking any First Amendment protections it has is not a viable solution.

3. Not invoke morality arguments like "muh degeneracy", "muh traditionalism", or "muh World Jewry"
I want to engage with this in more depth when I'm not rushing for time, so don't take this post as a blanket dismissal, particularly not since I value the engagement and have a number of questions I'd like to ask, but will save for later.

I have to ask: Aren't you offloading moral responsibility on this issue onto the other side? You create a cogent rebuttal (though not as complete as it might seem at first glance; I'll have to get into that later), but it seems to me, when I read that, that the responsibility for solutions lies mostly in the hands of the moral crusaders in your mind. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a mindreader. I mean, you consider porn is a harmful vice equivalent to other vices, which means you yourself consider it a form of degeneracy, if by another name. Is it wrong of me to think that you consider dealing with this issue is other people's responsibility?

Okay, gotta run.
 

Syaoran Li

Manager of the Goth IHOP
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I want to engage with this in more depth when I'm not rushing for time, so don't take this post as a blanket dismissal, particularly not since I value the engagement and have a number of questions I'd like to ask, but will save for later.

I have to ask: Aren't you offloading moral responsibility on this issue onto the other side? You create a cogent rebuttal (though not as complete as it might seem at first glance; I'll have to get into that later), but it seems to me, when I read that, that the responsibility for solutions lies mostly in the hands of the moral crusaders in your mind. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not a mindreader. I mean, you consider porn is a harmful vice equivalent to other vices, which means you yourself consider it a form of degeneracy, if by another name. Is it wrong of me to think that you consider dealing with this issue is other people's responsibility?

Okay, gotta run.
I don't consider it to be a form of degeneracy since I don't consider smoking cigars and drinking Scotch to be degeneracy either.

When I say "equivalent to any other vice", I mean there's nothing uniquely damaging about porn to justify a ban. If an adult wants to whack off to porn in the privacy of their own homes, they have that right, no different than someone having a glass of wine or a smoke.

Hell, watching porn may not be healthy in and of itself, but it doesn't lead to lung cancer or liver failure like tobacco and alcohol do. So why single it out for a ban? What other reason would you have other than sanctimonious moral bullshit?

The burden of finding a solution does lie on the hands of the moral crusaders because they're the ones saying it's an actual problem. Since they are the ones making the claim, they have to validate their claims and then provide a viable solution that doesn't hinge on morality and prohibition.
 
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FunPosting101

Ebin posting only. No other posts allowed. :DDDD
kiwifarms.net
I don't consider it to be a form of degeneracy since I don't consider smoking cigars and drinking Scotch to be degeneracy either.

When I say "equivalent to any other vice", I mean there's nothing uniquely damaging about porn to justify a ban. If an adult wants to whack off to porn in the privacy of their own homes, they have that right, no different than someone having a glass of wine or a smoke.

Hell, watching porn may not be healthy in and of itself, but it doesn't lead to lung cancer or liver failure like tobacco and alcohol do. So why single it out for a ban? What other reason would you have other than sanctimonious moral bullshit?

The burden of finding a solution does lie on the hands of the moral crusaders because they're the ones saying it's an actual problem. Since they are the ones making the claim, they have to validate their claims and then provide a viable solution that doesn't hinge on morality and prohibition.
In addition to this I'd like to add that an actual prohibition on porn would work even less well then the prohibition on alcohol did or the war on drugs is doing now. I've said this elsewhere and I'll say it again here, Torrent clients and sites exist, various image boards exist and in fact the entirety of the modern internet exists. Porn is here to stay and no amount of laws will stop it.
 

Tad Loaf

kiwifarms.net
It might seem like not a big deal in the grand scheme but can you imagine how fucking bad the whiteknighting/paypigging/simping would get if porn was gone? There are already plenty of men so desperate to bust a nut they'll let a woman away with murder, I don't know if our culture could handled that cranked up another notch.
 

Systemic Shock

Best Boy
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Kind of late, but I think this is a massive slippery slope argument with ample amounts of projection. One can consume fairly vanilla porn regularly and still not go bored with it. One does not simply go from watching people fuck normally to watching midgets skull-fuck decapitated heads. Chances are, the people watching that kind of shit were fucked up to begin with. All the internet has done is simply make that kind of shit more accessible to the weirdoes who want to consume it. If you can't watch porn without being tempted to view the edgier shit, that's a you problem, not an everyone problem.
I can concede that it was a poor argument. I don't think porn should be banned, but it shouldn't be so widely and easily accessible. The problem with performing any regulation in regards to porn is that it would inevitably fail. The amount of oversight needed to regulate such a vast market would be pointless. Banning porn outright would just repeat the disaster that was Prohibition.
 

Syaoran Li

Manager of the Goth IHOP
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Another problem that I want to address is the hate-boner that the anti-porn crowd has for any type of fun or pleasure, regardless of context or circumstance. I'd say a lot of this has to do with the movement's historic ties to both Protestant Christian fundamentalism and the overly misandrist and sex-negative radical feminism movement of the 1970's and 1980's.

For some reason, a lot of moral authoritarians tend to hate the very concept of fun, whether it's SJW's who think it's "problematic" because of some intersectional bullshit, or Islamists and Christian fundamentalists who view any type of hedonism as bad (even if it's tempered with moderation) and that any form of pursuing joy or pleasure is equal to true unhinged libertine degeneracy.

I've always been of the belief that pursuing pleasure in and of itself is not bad, so long as you are responsible and practice moderation. While rape and pedophilia are degenerate, whacking off or consensual sex between adults in the privacy of your own home is not.

There's always been this weird thing about certain hardliner religious traditions where mere pleasure in and of itself is viewed in contempt and seen as inherently evil, although that attitude seems to be the most prevalent in traditionalist Protestant and Islamic traditions.

Pleasure is not inherently evil and moderation is key. As long as you're not harming anyone else and practicing basic discretion, responsibility, and moderation, what you do for fun is your own business.

There is a time and place for everything, even "sinful" things like fun, pleasure, and leisure.
 
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The problem between us lies in asking for proof. Any study that says "porn is bad" is going to come from untrustworthy and biased sources from a mainstream perspective, while any study that says "porn is good" is going to be viewed with incredible scrutiny and distruat from the anti-porn side. Like it or not, psychology is mostly just bullshit meant to justify preconcieved notions on either side. This leaves us with anecdotal evidence (which will never be persuasive), slippery slopes (which, as much as I believe it to be true more often than not, is fallacious), historical comparisons (which aren't exactly accurate and can be analysed a dozen ways), and moral arguments (which is always a shit-show).

It's incredibly telling how incredibly changed our society is that what was seen as an unhealthy dysfunction is suddenly seen as ok. It's a complicated situation with a long and complex history, but it should at least be understood that its so far from the original understanding.

Saying its bad to regulate pornography because it's not going to be 100% effective is stupid. Every law, regulation, and standard, is eventually violated. This is why we have law enforcement agencies. I understand the ultimate pointbis that you can't **effectively** enforce the law, but that is a nuance that is often omitted directly in discussion in favor of merely citing prohibtion (a case in which it wasn't an issue of enforcing the practicals of the law, but in enforcing the intent and causing greater problems).

Tackling the problem of pornography means tackling the problem of how to regulate the internet. Knowing the audience here, no one is going to like the answer because to really enforce public standards online means violating and destroying anonymity online.

We exist only in a truly exceptional world that has allowed us an interesting fluke of nature that allows us to consider pornography free speech, yet prohibit the distribution of it to minors, yet allow minors to anonymously access it in a fairly public fashion. It's fucking crazy already. I think that as it stands, the laws prohibiting pornography are mostly in place but is just waiting for a societal change in perception regarding internet regulation. Like it or not, we've been living in an exceptional world for too long.
 
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Virgo

kiwifarms.net
Porn addiction is pretty serious when it comes to how it rewires different parts of your brain. I think it's also why there are a lot of MTF trannies with how focused it is on women (to paraphrase heavily because I'm tired rn).

Real sex is not like porn. The type of sexual behaviour it promotes as normal (choking, anal, deepthroating, etc) is not naturally pleasurable for women. People with years of porn viewing under their belts, before they even have sex for the first time, arrive with unrealistic and unhealthy expectations of themselves, partners, and the experience as a whole.

Constantly consuming that visual stimulus to get off makes pleasure during sex much more difficult because your brain is waiting for that trigger to feel enjoyment. You want the same situations and positions as porn which are made for camera angles and not real life.

Being kinky is now expected and prioritised when exploring sexuality because "normal" sex built on love and traditional positions is seen as boring. Porn has promoted the extremity of pleasure rather than the quality, but that's another topic.

A friend of mine who is an escort said she has had men just try and ram their dick in her ass with zero lube or plugging because they don't understand that's all done off camera. She's met men who don't even know where the clitoris is and just generally rub the area a few times, and think their porn viewing has taught them everything they need to know.

They all want what they see online and they're very confused when she explains what is actually required to do what they want, and how it's painful/uncomfortable/awkward without preparation or just in general.

Her favourite phrase is "my girlfriend/wife refuses to do anal" and then they find out why because they're essentially trying to rip their SO's anus in half through not knowing what they're doing.

Long ramble, I'll probably come back and edit this later with more whole thoughts when I'm not so sleepy.
 

Tragi-Chan

A thousand years old
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
It's incredibly telling how incredibly changed our society is that what was seen as an unhealthy dysfunction is suddenly seen as ok. It's a complicated situation with a long and complex history, but it should at least be understood that its so far from the original understanding.
Because people have always been consuming porn. It’s just that they used to be hypocrites about it. I mean, someone was buying all those Hustlers, yet mysteriously no one admitted to it.
 

Bum Driller

Cultural Appropriator & Cowboy Chemist
kiwifarms.net
Really, most porn is on a moral level with human trafficking or worse. (Bring on your negatives coomers)

I have, in the past, filmed myself having sex with my gf. Both were consenting to this, and we thought it was fun. Now, whom of us was the human trafficker in this situation? Should I feel violated for getting my dick sucked on film just because it's on film? Is there something magical in filming something that turns otherwise normal action to human trafficking?
 

FunPosting101

Ebin posting only. No other posts allowed. :DDDD
kiwifarms.net
The problem between us lies in asking for proof. Any study that says "porn is bad" is going to come from untrustworthy and biased sources from a mainstream perspective, while any study that says "porn is good" is going to be viewed with incredible scrutiny and distruat from the anti-porn side. Like it or not, psychology is mostly just bullshit meant to justify preconcieved notions on either side. This leaves us with anecdotal evidence (which will never be persuasive), slippery slopes (which, as much as I believe it to be true more often than not, is fallacious), historical comparisons (which aren't exactly accurate and can be analysed a dozen ways), and moral arguments (which is always a shit-show).

It's incredibly telling how incredibly changed our society is that what was seen as an unhealthy dysfunction is suddenly seen as ok. It's a complicated situation with a long and complex history, but it should at least be understood that its so far from the original understanding.

Saying its bad to regulate pornography because it's not going to be 100% effective is stupid. Every law, regulation, and standard, is eventually violated. This is why we have law enforcement agencies. I understand the ultimate pointbis that you can't **effectively** enforce the law, but that is a nuance that is often omitted directly in discussion in favor of merely citing prohibtion (a case in which it wasn't an issue of enforcing the practicals of the law, but in enforcing the intent and causing greater problems).

Tackling the problem of pornography means tackling the problem of how to regulate the internet. Knowing the audience here, no one is going to like the answer because to really enforce public standards online means violating and destroying anonymity online.

We exist only in a truly exceptional world that has allowed us an interesting fluke of nature that allows us to consider pornography free speech, yet prohibit the distribution of it to minors, yet allow minors to anonymously access it in a fairly public fashion. It's fucking crazy already. I think that as it stands, the laws prohibiting pornography are mostly in place but is just waiting for a societal change in perception regarding internet regulation. Like it or not, we've been living in an exceptional world for too long.
So in other words, in order to put in place a law that will be trivially easy for teens to bypass, we need to destroy internet anonymity forever. Yeah no, fuck that shit. I've said before that I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that it shouldn't be so easy for minors to access at least certain types of pornography, but I'm not willing to gut what remains of personal privacy online to do it and neither are most people. Let the world stay retarded for all I give a damn, if the only way to make it sane is with ever increasing amounts of authoritarian bullshit like this.
 
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Don Juan El Tardo

What a long strange trip it's been
kiwifarms.net
Porn to me is on the same level as Alcohol and Marijuana to me.

Like either, you end up de-sensitized to the more mundane stuff and you move on to the more extreme stuff to get that original thrill. The Coomer meme didn't come out of thin air and to me is about the same as an Alcoholic.

Should it be banned? Hell no. I don't think government should be impose on what people do on their own time on their own property. Punish them if it bleeds off there and affects the public (DUI, if you will). But that's about it.

Like the aforementioned drugs, I think they can be used for a good release every now and again. But like anything else, too much or worse yet dependence they are a bad thing then.

Have fun, just don't be a tard.
 

Sorlock

kiwifarms.net
I think the argument that you don't know where your porn is coming from (baring like super indie shit or cam girls) and it could be revenge porn/filmed under unsavory circumstances was enough to get me to stop watching it. Like if someone said 10% of meat is human meat I wouldn't risk the burger.
Why are you watching porn if you don't know where it comes from?
 

queerape

Gorilla gorilla goes Gorillaz
kiwifarms.net
See, I'd be open to the anti-porn side if they can provide a valid argument for their case, and a valid solution to the problem. However, all they ever seem to spout is moral bullshit for their arguments and prohibition for their solution.

The problem with the average anti-porn argument is that prohibition simply does not work. We saw it with alcohol in the 1920's and our society is just now realizing how badly prohibition of drugs has backfired for the past fifty years. Even with the unique addictive properties and lethality of certain hard drugs like meth, cocaine, or heroin, prohibition has done nothing to stop the problem and in many cases, it has made society worse.

Prohibition of porn would be even more detrimental to society, just like prohibition of alcohol was in the 1920's. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no putting it back in.

As for being a fundamentalist, there isn't any concrete information that proves porn is specifically more harmful than other vices when responsibly consumed by adults and even if there were, the only solutions that are consistently being proposed are ineffective at best and exponentially counterproductive at worst.

Honestly, I'd be more open to the anti-porn side's arguments if they could successfully pull off these three things.


1. Provide concrete proof of porn being uniquely detrimental compared to other vices or forms of media, with at least two or three credible sources. Again, keep in mind that I'm talking about adults viewing porn. I do agree that minors should not have easy access to porn.

2. Provide a reasonable solution the problem that could actually be effective. Simply banning it and revoking any First Amendment protections it has is not a viable solution.

3. Not invoke morality arguments like "muh degeneracy", "muh traditionalism", or "muh World Jewry"
I would argue prohibition of porn is worse than drugs or alcohol, because unlike intoxicants, save for the 0.5% of people who are asexual, people have an inborn intrinsic need for sex. People will get horny no matter what they do, and even if you do have a partner they may not always be here or in the mood for sex as the same time you are. Thus, there will always be a demand for porn.
 

nukes

kiwifarms.net
I find porn pretty disgusting. Using your imagination is not so hard, but apparently when you watch too much porn it becomes impossible to just use your imagination. After learning of the abuse that goes on behind the scenes and on camera, I’m even more put off by it.

I think people just want a release and masturbating can be one, so I don’t think masturbation is bad. It’s definitely a problem when you start getting the urge to do it in public though.

As with all things, if you consume porn and masturbate too often, it will become an addiction. You will crave the feeling it gives you. Just like with binge eating, for example. More you do it the more urges you get to do it.

As for young people watching porn, I think that’s an issue. If you’re exposed to porn before you’re exposed to anything else regarding sex, which a lot of kids are nowadays, you will have a warped view of what healthy and fulfilling sex is. I don’t know what you could do about that tbh. I just hope that kids will eventually learn that real life sex is nothing like porn and they learn to separate the fantasies in porn from actual sexual relationships.
 

Somnius

Sweet C
kiwifarms.net
Porn in itself is not naturally evil or anything, but it can have a corrupting influence, especially on people whose only real sexual experiences are with pornography. Addiction to it is also a serious risk for the many people without much social/dating experience, and can be harmful.

Plus you have cases of human trafficking, abuse, and other messed up shit happening in porn and porn production.

That said, most of it is harmless so long as you don't get addicted to it.
 
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