The Great Porn Debate - The Coomites vs Anti-Faparians

Syaoran Li

Manager of the Goth IHOP
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
All this raving over "muh degeneracy" and morality is counter-productive

At this point, who even cares? You're not getting your traditionalist theocracy any time soon.

Right-wingers advocating for porn bans are extremely counter-productive to getting into power anyway, since it'll remind people of the old Religious Right and no sane person wants the fundies back (the SJW's emerged as a overreaction backlash to those fucks)

At least wait until you've got the power to start banning porn.

Although I honestly think stricter regulation of porn and better efforts at keeping it away from minors will do a lot more to counter the negative effects of the porn industry as opposed to the same tired morality-based arguments that killed the Religious Right (and will kill the SJW's on other unrelated issues)

Don't put the cart before the horse.
 
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Lemmingwise

Judging you internally
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
All this raving over "muh degeneracy" and (((morality)))

It only reminds me that the Sexual Revolution was not a mistake. The real mistake was the Edict of Milan.

If Constantine died at that bridge instead of narrowly winning the battle, we wouldn't have to be dealing with all the Boomer fundie relics, traditionalist faggot LARP'ers, fedora-tipping euphoric atheists, neon-haired Marxists, and SJW's of today.

Abrahamic monotheism (and atheism) and its consequences have been a disaster for the entire human race.
Help me understand your perspective. Why the kneejerk response to morality? You seem to think it is the sole purview of christianity, or abrahamic religions, it's far from the only cultural relics that preached types of chastity. What exactly are you rebelling against when you deem morality foolish? Do you think buddhist or shinto monks drowned themselves in pussy?

As for degeneracy, do you not see a single redeeming factor in people that are interested not just in their personal health but the health of their communities and society? I recognize that you might have a different view of what's healthy, I presume one that includes ample porn production, but do you reject the very idea of moral arguments and what's good for groups altogether?
 

Syaoran Li

Manager of the Goth IHOP
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Help me understand your perspective. Why the kneejerk response to morality? You seem to think it is the sole purview of christianity, or abrahamic religions, it's far from the only cultural relics that preached types of chastity. What exactly are you rebelling against when you deem morality foolish? Do you think buddhist or shinto monks drowned themselves in pussy?

As for degeneracy, do you not see a single redeeming factor in people that are interested not just in their personal health but the health of their communities and society? I recognize that you might have a different view of what's healthy, I presume one that includes ample porn production, but do you reject the very idea of moral arguments and what's good for groups altogether?
I'll admit I made that initial post in a fit of frustration and re-edited it accordingly to something that's a lot less autistic and knee-jerk angry.

Really, I think that the Right advocating for porn bans and going in a sex-negative Christian traditionalist way is one of the worst things the American right-wing can do right now.

I'm all for better regulation of the porn industry and doing a better job of keeping it away from minors, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

At this point, Christians are to the GOP what Blacks are to the DNC, that voter bloc is as likely to leave the Republicans' monastery as the Black vote is likely to leave the Democrats' plantation.

I don't think "ample porn production" is healthy but I do believe we should keep porn legal but also regulate it better to alleviate the problems within the industry.

My main problem with invoking the "degeneracy" card is that the concept of "degeneracy" is often extremely subjective outside of a few universally reviled behaviors like rape, bestiality, and pedophilia.

Abrahamic religions have an extremely strict and narrow definition of what is not considered degenerate. Only the Jains and a few Buddhist sects are stricter than the average traditionalist Protestant or Muslim.

For Trad Protestants, Muslims, and Orthodox Jews, damn near everything is considered dire degeneracy outside of austere worship and self-denial to the extreme degree. Basically, if it feels good in any way, it's a sin.

That kind of austerity always leads to a massive backlash, especially in a post-Enlightenment era.

We kinda see this on a smaller level with the trope of "the preacher's daughter is a crazy slut/troublemaker" you see in movies and TV
 
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Lemmingwise

Judging you internally
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I'll admit I made that initial post in a fit of frustration and re-edited it accordingly to something that's a lot less autistic and knee-jerk anrgy.

Really, I think that the Right advocating for porn bans and going in a sex-negative Christian traditionalist way is one of the worst things the American right-wing can do in America right now.

I'm all for better regulation of the porn industry and doing a better job of keeping it away from minors, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

At this point, Christians are to the GOP what Blacks are to the DNC, that voter bloc is as likely to leave the Republicans' monastery as the Black vote is likely to leave the Democrats' plantation.

I don't think "ample porn production" is healthy but I do believe we should keep porn legal but also regulate it better to alleviate the problems within the industry.

My main problem with invoking the "degeneracy" card is that the concept of "degeneracy" is often extremely subjective outside of a few universally reviled behaviors like rape, bestiality, and pedophilia.

Abrahamic religions have an extremely strict and narrow definition of what is not considered degenerate. Only the Jains and a few Buddhist sects are stricter than the average traditionalist Protestant or Muslim.

For Trad Protestants, Muslims, and Orthodox Jews, damn near everything is considered dire degeneracy outside of austere worship and self-denial to the extreme degree. Basically, if it feels good in any way, it's a sin.
I appreciate the explanation. It clarifies your position considerably to me.

I admittedly find it hard to connect with what seems to me a shortterm perspective of what two political camps in the US should do. To view sexuality and morals primarily through a political lens and what is politically expedient seems more shortsighted than viewing it primarily through the lens of a 2000 year old religion... though not by much.

I'm surprised to see that I mostly agree with your position, though I'd be in favor of stronger restraints and perhaps have a less rosy view of the current reality of the porn industry that most people seem to be closing their eyes to, as they close their eyes to other people's suffering for their own pleasure and convenience. In that sense I can connect with the self-denying of pleasure of religious fanatics.

Finally, perhaps you'll have more productive discussions if you ask people to dissect what they mean by degeneracy. These placeholder umbrella terms are helpful in starting a discussion sometimes, but not in following through. But a rejection will be equally unproductive, as it tends to be interpreted as a rejection of whatever things are hiding under that umbrella. Perhaps that's me being optimistic and perhaps you have no desire to, it's something to consider. You might find more people that are equally minded that way.

Thank you for the food for thought you've given me.
 

JimmerSnail

Waaaay too serious
kiwifarms.net
This whole Pro/Anti porn feud reminds me of the times of the Hot Coffee scandal.
and like that, there's surely someone fueling both sides just to gain even more.
It's always like this when there's this sort of pointless feuds. The point is, who's fueling who? why are some of these anti-porn folks have ties into the industry,like producers (who are likely still producing under aliases) and why does this shit always comes back every 5 years or so?

I think it's all Romero's Null's fault
and if you think that abolishing porn will delete human/sex trafficking oh boi you're in for a ride. on a semi-unrelated note, remember that there's people that LIKE doing porn or being a slut. there were some interviews on this, and I recall this prostitute replying to the "Why are you here?" question with an unironic "Because I like it".
 
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Lemmingwise

Judging you internally
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kiwifarms.net
why are some of these anti-porn folks have ties into the industry,like producers (who are likely still producing under aliases) and why does this shit always comes back every 5 years or so
You see the same time and time again in history in regards to prostitution. Take for example japan occupied by the US. In order to curb rape by US soldiers, the japanese decided to open brothels for US troops. Japanese women who worked these could tell themselves they were protecting other women from rape. Rape numbers dropped considerably (coincidently disproving the feminist myth that rape is about power, not sex, but I don't think anyone here was under that delusion).

But that then brought a new problem as venereal disease spread among US troops and they forbade brothels. Leading to more rapes.

Another moment in history had something similar with the Dutch VOC in Amsterdam complaining in letters about New Amsterdam (later became New York) that it was nothing but a den of whores and drug users. 300 years later, what is Amsterdam known for?

You see this pattern again and again in history.

I don't know why, but I can speculate.

I think that sexuality is the most immediate path to vices. It is a mighty beast to tame. It offers a backdoor to the most powerful men in the world. It causes men and women to engage in risky behaviour they otherwise wouldn't. It's practically impossible to suppress, but at the same time, to have no restraints on sexuality easily leads to chaos, in relationships, families, health, society.

And it is an unusually cunning beast to tame. Our bodies are not easily fooled by either dolls, or condoms. The pill has a whole host of results that are less than desirable to women's health. You see the same in the example with US troops stationed in Japan. Sex is never without risks, but neither is suppressing it.

We've gotten good at giving outlet to sexuality through porn. At the same time porn is growing ever more deviant to keep feeding the beast. Now that the supply is so available, the sensitivity to stimuli keeps decreasing. So to maintain competitive, porn producers keep adding new territority to what is acceptable, to such a degree that incest porn is a reddit meme.

Meanwhile the natural result of sex, children, is ever decreasing (except for extremists, only far leftists, far rightist and immigrants are having above replacement level of children).

People with difficulty with sex (particularly men) seems to be increasing, but that may be a result of taboo's decreasing, or inflated expectation, so that's hard to measure.

---

I think in essence it's an arms race between biological instinct and the attempt to control it, both on personal level, as on policy level. Control seems to be winning, but only if you view the rampant pornography and attitude of sexual liberation as not liberating. Some of the responses to nofap should tell you that it wasn't just liberation, or there would be no problem with a movement that decides to take control over their own sexuality in such a manner.

I only expect about half of people reading this that sexual liberation isn't just liberation. Of course my ideas were partly guided by Michael E Jones and his thoughts on this. Also by looking at the people involved in the sexual revolution and analysing their actions and motives, insofar as I could.

As for anti-porn folk with ties to porn industry, the best way to defeat opposition is to have controlled opposition. Consider the possibility that the goal isn't to hide the porn ties so much as it is to hide the disingenuity of their anti-porn stance so that it's hard for a genuine movement to grow their market share of eyeballs and support.
 

Niggaplease

cat lives matter
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Every type of job can provoke an exploitation, porn making is not any different just because more women suffer from it. People just need to stop being such gynocentrists if they truly want to live in an equal society.
but porn can create certain types of exploitation that isn't found in other types of work. Some performers complain of rape or by deception or outright coercion. Imagine this your a pumbler your sent to do one specific job but in turn the customer shoves a plunger up your ass. Would a plumber expect something forcibly up the wrong hole? no. but it's a common abuse in porn.
 
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