The Great Porn Debate - The Coomites vs Anti-Faparians

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Syaoran Li

Spooky Vampire
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
All this raving over "muh degeneracy" and morality is counter-productive

At this point, who even cares? You're not getting your traditionalist theocracy any time soon.

Right-wingers advocating for porn bans are extremely counter-productive to getting into power anyway, since it'll remind people of the old Religious Right and no sane person wants the fundies back (the SJW's emerged as a overreaction backlash to those fucks)

At least wait until you've got the power to start banning porn.

Although I honestly think stricter regulation of porn and better efforts at keeping it away from minors will do a lot more to counter the negative effects of the porn industry as opposed to the same tired morality-based arguments that killed the Religious Right (and will kill the SJW's on other unrelated issues)

Don't put the cart before the horse.
 
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Lemmingwise

In the tenth month, the dreadful horrors arise
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
All this raving over "muh degeneracy" and (((morality)))

It only reminds me that the Sexual Revolution was not a mistake. The real mistake was the Edict of Milan.

If Constantine died at that bridge instead of narrowly winning the battle, we wouldn't have to be dealing with all the Boomer fundie relics, traditionalist faggot LARP'ers, fedora-tipping euphoric atheists, neon-haired Marxists, and SJW's of today.

Abrahamic monotheism (and atheism) and its consequences have been a disaster for the entire human race.

Help me understand your perspective. Why the kneejerk response to morality? You seem to think it is the sole purview of christianity, or abrahamic religions, it's far from the only cultural relics that preached types of chastity. What exactly are you rebelling against when you deem morality foolish? Do you think buddhist or shinto monks drowned themselves in pussy?

As for degeneracy, do you not see a single redeeming factor in people that are interested not just in their personal health but the health of their communities and society? I recognize that you might have a different view of what's healthy, I presume one that includes ample porn production, but do you reject the very idea of moral arguments and what's good for groups altogether?
 

Syaoran Li

Spooky Vampire
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Help me understand your perspective. Why the kneejerk response to morality? You seem to think it is the sole purview of christianity, or abrahamic religions, it's far from the only cultural relics that preached types of chastity. What exactly are you rebelling against when you deem morality foolish? Do you think buddhist or shinto monks drowned themselves in pussy?

As for degeneracy, do you not see a single redeeming factor in people that are interested not just in their personal health but the health of their communities and society? I recognize that you might have a different view of what's healthy, I presume one that includes ample porn production, but do you reject the very idea of moral arguments and what's good for groups altogether?

I'll admit I made that initial post in a fit of frustration and re-edited it accordingly to something that's a lot less autistic and knee-jerk angry.

Really, I think that the Right advocating for porn bans and going in a sex-negative Christian traditionalist way is one of the worst things the American right-wing can do right now.

I'm all for better regulation of the porn industry and doing a better job of keeping it away from minors, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

At this point, Christians are to the GOP what Blacks are to the DNC, that voter bloc is as likely to leave the Republicans' monastery as the Black vote is likely to leave the Democrats' plantation.

I don't think "ample porn production" is healthy but I do believe we should keep porn legal but also regulate it better to alleviate the problems within the industry.

My main problem with invoking the "degeneracy" card is that the concept of "degeneracy" is often extremely subjective outside of a few universally reviled behaviors like rape, bestiality, and pedophilia.

Abrahamic religions have an extremely strict and narrow definition of what is not considered degenerate. Only the Jains and a few Buddhist sects are stricter than the average traditionalist Protestant or Muslim.

For Trad Protestants, Muslims, and Orthodox Jews, damn near everything is considered dire degeneracy outside of austere worship and self-denial to the extreme degree. Basically, if it feels good in any way, it's a sin.

That kind of austerity always leads to a massive backlash, especially in a post-Enlightenment era.

We kinda see this on a smaller level with the trope of "the preacher's daughter is a crazy slut/troublemaker" you see in movies and TV
 
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Lemmingwise

In the tenth month, the dreadful horrors arise
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
I'll admit I made that initial post in a fit of frustration and re-edited it accordingly to something that's a lot less autistic and knee-jerk anrgy.

Really, I think that the Right advocating for porn bans and going in a sex-negative Christian traditionalist way is one of the worst things the American right-wing can do in America right now.

I'm all for better regulation of the porn industry and doing a better job of keeping it away from minors, but let's not put the cart before the horse.

At this point, Christians are to the GOP what Blacks are to the DNC, that voter bloc is as likely to leave the Republicans' monastery as the Black vote is likely to leave the Democrats' plantation.

I don't think "ample porn production" is healthy but I do believe we should keep porn legal but also regulate it better to alleviate the problems within the industry.

My main problem with invoking the "degeneracy" card is that the concept of "degeneracy" is often extremely subjective outside of a few universally reviled behaviors like rape, bestiality, and pedophilia.

Abrahamic religions have an extremely strict and narrow definition of what is not considered degenerate. Only the Jains and a few Buddhist sects are stricter than the average traditionalist Protestant or Muslim.

For Trad Protestants, Muslims, and Orthodox Jews, damn near everything is considered dire degeneracy outside of austere worship and self-denial to the extreme degree. Basically, if it feels good in any way, it's a sin.

I appreciate the explanation. It clarifies your position considerably to me.

I admittedly find it hard to connect with what seems to me a shortterm perspective of what two political camps in the US should do. To view sexuality and morals primarily through a political lens and what is politically expedient seems more shortsighted than viewing it primarily through the lens of a 2000 year old religion... though not by much.

I'm surprised to see that I mostly agree with your position, though I'd be in favor of stronger restraints and perhaps have a less rosy view of the current reality of the porn industry that most people seem to be closing their eyes to, as they close their eyes to other people's suffering for their own pleasure and convenience. In that sense I can connect with the self-denying of pleasure of religious fanatics.

Finally, perhaps you'll have more productive discussions if you ask people to dissect what they mean by degeneracy. These placeholder umbrella terms are helpful in starting a discussion sometimes, but not in following through. But a rejection will be equally unproductive, as it tends to be interpreted as a rejection of whatever things are hiding under that umbrella. Perhaps that's me being optimistic and perhaps you have no desire to, it's something to consider. You might find more people that are equally minded that way.

Thank you for the food for thought you've given me.
 

JimmerSnail

23 y.o. designer from San Francisco
kiwifarms.net
This whole Pro/Anti porn feud reminds me of the times of the Hot Coffee scandal.
and like that, there's surely someone fueling both sides just to gain even more.
It's always like this when there's this sort of pointless feuds. The point is, who's fueling who? why are some of these anti-porn folks have ties into the industry,like producers (who are likely still producing under aliases) and why does this shit always comes back every 5 years or so?

I think it's all Romero's Null's fault
and if you think that abolishing porn will delete human/sex trafficking oh boi you're in for a ride. on a semi-unrelated note, remember that there's people that LIKE doing porn or being a slut. there were some interviews on this, and I recall this prostitute replying to the "Why are you here?" question with an unironic "Because I like it".
 
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Lemmingwise

In the tenth month, the dreadful horrors arise
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
why are some of these anti-porn folks have ties into the industry,like producers (who are likely still producing under aliases) and why does this shit always comes back every 5 years or so

You see the same time and time again in history in regards to prostitution. Take for example japan occupied by the US. In order to curb rape by US soldiers, the japanese decided to open brothels for US troops. Japanese women who worked these could tell themselves they were protecting other women from rape. Rape numbers dropped considerably (coincidently disproving the feminist myth that rape is about power, not sex, but I don't think anyone here was under that delusion).

But that then brought a new problem as venereal disease spread among US troops and they forbade brothels. Leading to more rapes.

Another moment in history had something similar with the Dutch VOC in Amsterdam complaining in letters about New Amsterdam (later became New York) that it was nothing but a den of whores and drug users. 300 years later, what is Amsterdam known for?

You see this pattern again and again in history.

I don't know why, but I can speculate.

I think that sexuality is the most immediate path to vices. It is a mighty beast to tame. It offers a backdoor to the most powerful men in the world. It causes men and women to engage in risky behaviour they otherwise wouldn't. It's practically impossible to suppress, but at the same time, to have no restraints on sexuality easily leads to chaos, in relationships, families, health, society.

And it is an unusually cunning beast to tame. Our bodies are not easily fooled by either dolls, or condoms. The pill has a whole host of results that are less than desirable to women's health. You see the same in the example with US troops stationed in Japan. Sex is never without risks, but neither is suppressing it.

We've gotten good at giving outlet to sexuality through porn. At the same time porn is growing ever more deviant to keep feeding the beast. Now that the supply is so available, the sensitivity to stimuli keeps decreasing. So to maintain competitive, porn producers keep adding new territority to what is acceptable, to such a degree that incest porn is a reddit meme.

Meanwhile the natural result of sex, children, is ever decreasing (except for extremists, only far leftists, far rightist and immigrants are having above replacement level of children).

People with difficulty with sex (particularly men) seems to be increasing, but that may be a result of taboo's decreasing, or inflated expectation, so that's hard to measure.

---

I think in essence it's an arms race between biological instinct and the attempt to control it, both on personal level, as on policy level. Control seems to be winning, but only if you view the rampant pornography and attitude of sexual liberation as not liberating. Some of the responses to nofap should tell you that it wasn't just liberation, or there would be no problem with a movement that decides to take control over their own sexuality in such a manner.

I only expect about half of people reading this that sexual liberation isn't just liberation. Of course my ideas were partly guided by Michael E Jones and his thoughts on this. Also by looking at the people involved in the sexual revolution and analysing their actions and motives, insofar as I could.

As for anti-porn folk with ties to porn industry, the best way to defeat opposition is to have controlled opposition. Consider the possibility that the goal isn't to hide the porn ties so much as it is to hide the disingenuity of their anti-porn stance so that it's hard for a genuine movement to grow their market share of eyeballs and support.
 

Niggaplease

are you dumb stupid or dumb?
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Every type of job can provoke an exploitation, porn making is not any different just because more women suffer from it. People just need to stop being such gynocentrists if they truly want to live in an equal society.
but porn can create certain types of exploitation that isn't found in other types of work. Some performers complain of rape or by deception or outright coercion. Imagine this your a pumbler your sent to do one specific job but in turn the customer shoves a plunger up your ass. Would a plumber expect something forcibly up the wrong hole? no. but it's a common abuse in porn.
 

JosephStalin

Vozhd
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Uncle Joe cares about the health of all KFers. 👍

Porn: Is it bad for you?
Pornography does not endorse a single ethic or approach to sex, and as such, can be neither good nor bad.

Pornography includes a huge range of products — from homemade photos of loving couples to mass-produced erotic movies designed to turn a large profit.

A person must judge whether porn is good or bad based on their values, the scientific research on porn-related issues that matter most to them, and the effect pornography has on their life.

Keep reading to learn more about the psychological and societal implications of pornography, and how porn may impact relationships.

What is porn?

a hand typing on a laptop keyboard at night as a way to illustrate the subject of is porn bad
S
Porn consumption is more common among men than women.

A 2019 review by an international panel concluded that defining the relationship between pornography and its audience is complex. Even the Supreme Court has grappled with this issue for decades.

People generally define something as pornographic when it involves videos or images that are ‘sexually explicit.’ A detailed medical examination would not be pornographic under this definition, but a sexualized medical scene marketed to a fetish community would be.

Internet pornography has made the genre more accessible. For this reason, most experts think that porn consumption has slightly increased over the past few decades.

However, researchers find it difficult to access reliable data for many reasons. People may lie about their porn consumption – or lack thereof – because of their desire to conform to gender, sexual, and moral norms.

Is porn bad?

A 2018 study suggests that around 85% of 1,036 participants reported using Internet porn during the previous 6 months. More men (80%) than women (26%) reported consuming online porn at least once a week.

Researchers, advocates, political and moral leaders, and media pundits have debated porn for decades. Consequently, political and religious ideology colors much of the research on the topic.

Mental health experts cannot agree on whether pornography addiction is real or how common it might be.

For every study purporting to show a benefit of pornography, there is another study disputing that benefit. Many studies rely on self-reports or untested assumptions.

Others have serious methodological flaws. For this reason, it is difficult to rely on any single study, and people should the evidence and claims with skepticism.


Psychological benefits of porn

Many porn users claim that their use improves their relationships, and in some cases, their well-being. Some older research supports this claim. Some potential psychological benefits include:

Increased access to diverse sexual material

People who consume porn may learn about new sexual positions, view destigmatizing material about their kinks, and learn more about the human body.
The media tends to portray sex and sexuality as heterosexual and presents a narrow range of options, while porn offers a person the opportunity to seek out more inclusive options.

Destigmatizing sex

Watching pornography may make sex feel less intimidating, especially to people who have little exposure to sex and sexual material.
Sexual empowerment

Some people find porn sexually empowering. For example, females may find that certain genres of porn validate a wide range of sexual expressions. A 2012 paper argues that pornography demedicalizes female sexuality.

Stress relief and leisure

A 2017 study identified that many people use pornography as a leisure activity to relieve stress and distract them from adverse emotions.


Psychological risks and side effects of porn

Some potential psychological effects of porn include:

Body image and the beauty myth

Many pornographic films promote an unrealistic image of “beauty” by portraying very ‘slim’ and very ‘young’ people. Some advocates worry that this may contribute to low self-esteem, especially among women, or cause people to have unrealistic expectations of their sexual partners.

Addiction

One heavily contested potential risk is that of pornography addiction. One study observing problematic pornography use (PPU) found that brain activation in people with PPU was accompanied by increased behavioral motivation to view erotic images. In other words, those with PPU subjects had a higher ‘want’ for viewing cues related to erotic pictures.

Cues for signaling erotic pictures also increased based on the amount of pornography a person used per week and masturbation frequency.
On the other hand, numerous studies claim the opposite and cite that research existing around pornography addiction thus far is flawed.


Physical effects of porn

Some physical effects of porn may include:

Arousal

Porn can help a person become physically aroused. This may make it easier to have sex with a partner or to enjoy solo sex.

Health

Generally speaking, research on porn and health outcomes is either poorly designed or produces inconclusive results.

However, research does show that positive sexuality can improve health in many ways, including lowering blood pressure and improving the immune system. According to the Center for Women’s Health, porn can be a part of a healthy sex life.


Sexual expectations

Porn may help nurture unrealistic expectations about the physical aspects of sex.

A person might believe that only vaginal penetration and no other vaginal stimulation leads to a quick orgasm and that erectile dysfunction (ED) or using lubricants is rare.

Sexual risk-taking

An original research paper in Sexuality & Culture suggests that porn may increase sexual risk-taking, such as not using a condom or other barrier contraception.

Interest in non-normative sex

According to the 2015 report, consuming pornography may increase interest in “friends with benefits” sexual relationships. If a person has multiple friends with benefits, it may increase their exposure to sexually transmitted infections (STIs). That said, there is nothing wrong with having multiple sexual partners. People should always take precautions to ensure safe and enjoyable sex, thus minimizing any risk of STIs.


Porn and relationships

Porn can benefit and harm a relationship:

Quality of sex life

In an older survey-based study, 58.8% of people who used porn said that it positively affected their sex lives. The study relied on self-reports, not objective measures, so the results are inconclusive.

Sexual desensitization

Conversely, some analysts argue that chronic or intense porn use may make a person less responsive to a sexual partner.
A 2016 review highlights data on porn-related sexual dysfunction. However, some experts have criticized these findings, and one of the authors is a proponent of the idea that porn addiction is common.

Changes in relationships

A study of 430 people in heterosexual relationships found that porn improved communication, enhanced comfort with sex, and supported experimentation.
However, some problems included increased insecurity, decreased interest in their partner, and unrealistic sexual expectations.




Porn in society

Many advocates argue that the personal effects of pornography may extend to society. Some drawbacks include:
  • increased misogyny
  • unrealistic expectations
  • unreasonable sexual expectations that may change what people expect from “typical” sex
There may also be some benefits, including:
  • less stigma associated with sex
  • increased acceptance of nontraditional sexual practices
  • improved sexual communication
There are also some concerns with the creation of pornography and how it affects people involved in the industry. Some advocates argue that people are more likely to enter porn when they have a history of abuse, but a 2012 study disputes this notion. Some other potential problems include:
  • exploitation and abuse of porn actors
  • STIs among porn actors
  • use of underaged actors


Alternative ways to get aroused

A person does not have to use pornography to feel aroused, even if they struggle with arousal.
Some alternatives include:
  • reading erotic stories, which incorporate many of the same fantasies but which lack real people and visual images, potentially easing some people’s concerns about porn
  • exchanging explicit texts or emails with a partner to share fantasies and build interest
  • planning out sex sessions to incorporate more elements of each partner’s fantasies
  • participating in more extensive foreplay, so that each partner has time to get aroused
Summary

Pornography can be good, bad, or neutral. It depends on how a person uses it, the type of porn the person consumes, and the effect their use has on their relationships and life.

Current evidence around the positives and negatives of pornography use is mixed. A lot of studies utilize methods such as self-surveys, which bring to light the issue of reliability. More research must continue into the deeper psychological and physical implications of porn.

However, as it stands, porn can be a part of healthy relationships and have numerous benefits, although people should be aware of some potential risks.
Couples should discuss pornography, and people with concerns about pornography should consider talking to a sex-positive counselor.


 

RumblyTumbly

kiwifarms.net
Like anything else, it can become addictive if you consume too much of it.

It isn't inherently harmful, but if you start spending half of every day whacking it to porn, then you've developed an addiction and you should probably go outside.

But again, its no different from video games, food, or anything else in that regard. Its fine in moderation, but don't let it control you.
 

Dutch Courage

Curious Onlooker
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
Funny how lefties point to porno as "sexual empowerment of women" when there are few (if any) domains where women are exploited more.

Not that I'm against porno on principle; it has its place and should exist. But attempts to turn it into something noble and good ring pretty hollow. And depending on the source, I sometimes see such attempts as softening the ground for more liberal attitudes toward child sexual abuse.
 

special need's H20

mostly here to lurk. nlame bull.
kiwifarms.net
I'll just be a faggot and post a song that describes this.

 

The Opera Ghost

Ugly underground simp
kiwifarms.net
As an industry, I don't like porn. It tends to exploit the vulnerable with attendant drug abuse and bodily failures and wear a grinning rictus of positivity and empowerment. Or maybe that's football.

As a functional product? Enjoy it jn moderation if no better sexual outlet is available but don't be a coomer.
 
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