The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

Forgetful Gynn

Respect for the truth is the basis of all morality
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Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, homosexuals, the mentally retarded, those all count, maybe not for the "Holocaust" but definitely in the context of Nazis being murderous bastards

If we were talking about the Holodomor it would be perfectly fair game to bring up the people who were oppressed along with the so-called "kulaks"
Well the jews have monopolized the whole affair and made it all about them. Hell, they even fought to prevent the USA's concentration camps being called "concentration camps".
Wikipedia the Free Encyclopedia said:
In 1998, use of the term "concentration camps" gained greater credibility prior to the opening of an exhibit about the American camps at Ellis Island. Initially, the American Jewish Committee (AJC) and the National Park Service, which manages Ellis Island, objected to the use of the term in the exhibit. However, during a subsequent meeting held at the offices of the AJC in New York City, leaders representing Japanese Americans and Jewish Americans reached an understanding about the use of the term. After the meeting, the Japanese American National Museum and the AJC issued a joint statement (which was included in the exhibit) that read in part:

A concentration camp is a place where people are imprisoned not because of any crimes they have committed, but simply because of who they are. Although many groups have been singled out for such persecution throughout history, the term 'concentration camp' was first used at the turn of the [20th] century in the Spanish American and Boer Wars. During World War II, America's concentration camps were clearly distinguishable from Nazi Germany's. Nazi camps were places of torture, barbarous medical experiments and summary executions; some were extermination centers with gas chambers. Six million Jews were slaughtered in the Holocaust. Many others, including Gypsies, Poles, homosexuals and political dissidents were also victims of the Nazi concentration camps. In recent years, concentration camps have existed in the former Soviet Union, Cambodia and Bosnia. Despite differences, all had one thing in common: the people in power removed a minority group from the general population and the rest of society let it happen.
The New York Times published an unsigned editorial supporting the use of "concentration camp" in the exhibit. An article quoted Jonathan Mark, a columnist for The Jewish Week, who wrote, "Can no one else speak of slavery, gas, trains, camps? It's Jewish malpractice to monopolize pain and minimize victims." AJC Executive Director David A. Harris stated during the controversy, "We have not claimed Jewish exclusivity for the term 'concentration camps.'", while also stating "Since the Second World War, these terms have taken on a specificity and a new level of meaning that deserves protection. A certain care needs to be exercised."
 

Forgetful Gynn

Respect for the truth is the basis of all morality
kiwifarms.net
Yeah, and Japanese in Japan tortured American POWs to death, beheaded them, and literally ate them.
We vaporized children. Thousands of them. In Hiroshima 90 percent of physicians and nurses were killed or injured; 42 of 45 hospitals were rendered non-functional; and 70 per cent of victims had combined injuries including, in most cases, severe burns. They died slow, wailing, painful deaths while watching everyone they knew or love die alongside them, if they weren't incinerated on the spot. I feel for POW's as much as any son of a soldier, but don't even pretend they're in the same ball park as atrocities go. The use of atomic weapons on major civilian population centers will be the greatest war crime of all time unless and until it ever happens again.
I've went over why the atomic bombs were dropped earlier in the thread.
Yes, convenience.
 
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TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
kiwifarms.net
We vaporized children. Thousands of them. In Hiroshima 90 percent of physicians and nurses were killed or injured; 42 of 45 hospitals were rendered non-functional; and 70 per cent of victims had combined injuries including, in most cases, severe burns. They died slow, wailing, painful deaths while watching everyone they knew or love die alongside them, if they weren't incinerated on the spot. I feel for POW's as much as any son of a soldier, but don't even pretend they're in the same ball park as atrocities go. The use of atomic weapons on major civilian population centers will be the greatest war crime of all time unless and until it ever happens again.

Yes, convenience.
Blah blah blah. Peanuts compared to what the Imperial Japanese Army did in China. And I've gone thru the planning stages for Operation Downfall and the data available to the US Army re Japanese ferocity. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate industrial targets. The atomic bombs were necessary to convince the Japanese that the USA will not stop until they just stop. What would have happened would probably have been Japan divided in two between Soviet and American occupation zones; what actually did happen was Japan as a safe satellite of the USA with the USSR taking what the Japanese Empire had conquered in the Russo-Japanese war.
 

Forgetful Gynn

Respect for the truth is the basis of all morality
kiwifarms.net
Peanuts compared to what the Imperial Japanese Army did in China.
The chinese will eat thousands of their own people to survive sieges. Replacing their government would be a net good.
And I've gone thru the planning stages for Operation Downfall and the data available to the US Army re Japanese ferocity. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate industrial targets. The atomic bombs were necessary to convince the Japanese that the USA will not stop until they just stop. What would have happened would probably have been Japan divided in two between Soviet and American occupation zones; what actually did happen was Japan as a safe satellite of the USA with the USSR taking what the Japanese Empire had conquered in the Russo-Japanese war.
Cool. The moral high ground is not atop ~226,000 charred bodies of innocents. War is hell. We did bad shit, we don't get to justify it or write it off just because we won, do we?
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
kiwifarms.net
The chinese will eat thousands of their own people to survive sieges. Replacing their government would be a net good.

Cool. The moral high ground is not atop ~226,000 charred bodies of innocents. War is hell. We did bad shit, we don't get to justify it or write it off just because we won, do we?
The USA rebuilt Japan into a country that is more developed than even the USA is now. The USA rebuilt Germany, Japan, and South Korea into three of the most well developed countries in the world. In true victory, the USA was magnanimous.

Womp womp applies when I'm supposed to feel bad about the hundreds of thousands who died in Japan due to a war that the Japanese started. When it happens to the USA, as it is happening now, womp womp will still apply as the American Empire was built on top of exploiting most of the rest of the world.
 

millais

The Yellow Rose of Victoria, Texas
True & Honest Fan
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The atomic bombings produced fewer aggregate casualties than General LeMay's firebombing campaign against Tokyo in the preceding months. Exactly the same type of deaths and injuries by incineration, asphyxiation, etc, only with no radiation sickness.

The firebombing of densely populated urban centers was legitimized as a conventional tactic by the British and Germans much earlier in the war. The two low-yield atomic bombings were just a minor step up from that.
 

Lemmingwise

✊Black in solidarity with black lives matter✊
True & Honest Fan
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A large percentage of Roma died within the Holocaust and there has never been any proof offered to compensate for the dead
Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists, homosexuals, the mentally retarded, those all count, maybe not for the "Holocaust" but definitely in the context of Nazis being murderous bastards

If we were talking about the Holodomor it would be perfectly fair game to bring up the people who were oppressed along with the so-called "kulaks"
I agree that it is fair to bring up. I bring it up earlier in the thread IIRC. How does it relate to the part you quoted?
 

Lemmingwise

✊Black in solidarity with black lives matter✊
True & Honest Fan
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I literally said why.
I still don't see how you brought it up in relation to the part you quoted, where I was asking that if it doesn't make nazis look better whether it's 6 million or 600.000 deaths, perhaps the people who argue it aren't trying to rehabilitate nazism.

I've gone over one of the reasons why the topic of the holocaust is still relevant and not some ancient and unimportant history. Just a year ago millions were blackmailed from the dutch royal trains towards holocaust survivors, because it was their trains that were used by germans. Did any of the money go to roma? Of course not. Did any of it go to homosexuals? These groups are not considered holocaust survivors. They are considered survivors of nazi persecution, but not holocaust survivors.

Since the holocaust isn't the german genocide against people, though that definition would make more sense, but the holocaust is the targeted destruction of 6 million jews.

Here are the first links from duckduckgo:

IMG_20200628_101322.png

IMG_20200628_101338.png

Google:

IMG_20200628_101511.pngIMG_20200628_101542.png

See how the holocaust itself is defined as concerning itself solely with jewish genocide? See how the first numbers any rando gets are still the admitted invented 6+5 million by wiesenthal?

The kulaks were brought up as a counterpoint to how it's legally safe to say and think all matter of things about the kulaks. The same goes for thinking about the roma persecution. This also does not rehabilitate nazi germany.
I can't look into other people's heads and hearts, but just maybe it usn't my goal to rehabilitate nazi germany. Maybe it isn't for some of the others. I've only been saying so for 22 pages and so have some others.

Revisit the assumption that being a closet nazi is the only possible motivation for puttong questionmarks behind this event and how it's portrayed?
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
kiwifarms.net
I still don't see how you brought it up in relation to the part you quoted, where I was asking that if it doesn't make nazis look better whether it's 6 million or 600.000 deaths, perhaps the people who argue it aren't trying to rehabilitate nazism.

I've gone over one of the reasons why the topic of the holocaust is still relevant and not some ancient and unimportant history. Just a year ago millions were blackmailed from the dutch royal trains towards holocaust survivors, because it was their trains that were used by germans. Did any of the money go to roma? Of course not. Did any of it go to homosexuals? These groups are not considered holocaust survivors. They are considered survivors of nazi persecution, but not holocaust survivors.

Since the holocaust isn't the german genocide against people, though that definition would make more sense, but the holocaust is the targeted destruction of 6 million jews.

Here are the first links from duckduckgo:

View attachment 1413121

View attachment 1413122

Google:

View attachment 1413129View attachment 1413130

See how the holocaust itself is defined as concerning itself solely with jewish genocide? See how the first numbers any rando gets are still the admitted invented 6+5 million by wiesenthal?

The kulaks were brought up as a counterpoint to how it's legally safe to say and think all matter of things about the kulaks. The same goes for thinking about the roma persecution. This also does not rehabilitate nazi germany.
I can't look into other people's heads and hearts, but just maybe it usn't my goal to rehabilitate nazi germany. Maybe it isn't for some of the others. I've only been saying so for 22 pages and so have some others.

Revisit the assumption that being a closet nazi is the only possible motivation for puttong questionmarks behind this event and how it's portrayed?
Nice to deflect. Holocaust denial was explicitly stated by either George Lincoln Rockwell or William Luther Pierce to make National Socialism a viable political philosophy again.

Are we supposed to just forget that the Roma were the second most target of the Nazi death camps, and that Mengele targeted Roma the most?
 

Lemmingwise

✊Black in solidarity with black lives matter✊
True & Honest Fan
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Nice to deflect. Holocaust denial was explicitly stated by either George Lincoln Rockwell or William Luther Pierce to make National Socialism a viable political philosophy again.

Are we supposed to just forget that the Roma were the second most target of the Nazi death camps, and that Mengele targeted Roma the most?
Alright, thanks for making the accusation straight. My openly expressed doubt about some aspects then too is denial in your dictionary. Tell me. What part of what I said makes me a holocaust denier? Make it crystal clear where the bar is of where historical curiosity/investigation ends and where holocaust denial begins.

As for the roma, it's a disingenous point, since I've brought up a similar point to yours twice earlier in the thread at least. I'll bring up another adjecant one. Even prior to the start of world war 2, Germany sterilized a number of black people against their will. Anyways, back to the roma. Why don't the roma get any of the holocaust money?
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
kiwifarms.net
Alright, thanks for making the accusation straight. My openly expressed doubt about some aspects then too is denial in your dictionary. Tell me. What part of what I said makes me a holocaust denier? Make it crystal clear where the bar is of where historical curiosity/investigation ends and where holocaust denial begins.

As for the roma, it's a disingenous point, since I've brought up a similar point to yours twice earlier in the thread at least. I'll bring up another adjecant one. Even prior to the start of world war 2, Germany sterilized a number of black people against their will. Anyways, back to the roma. Why don't the roma get any of the holocaust money?
"Just asking questions" reaches a point where it's clear you're just being a jerkass about it and not trying to actually find any facts on the matter, just go all off on "it didn't happen". The National Socialists explicitly stated in several memoranda and were recorded as saying they were killing Jews in KZs. Einsatzgruppen were sent out to kill Jews. The Nazis hated Jews. Everybody had their "good Jew," but the vast amount of Jews in Nazi occupied Europe were singled out to be killed because the Nazis hated Jews. Whether or not Hitler outright stated "kill all the Jews" it doesn't matter. The Nazis who had power and were the ones with the monopoly of force wanted to please Hitler, so they killed Jews.

The Roma didn't get any of the holocaust money for the same reason American Blacks will never get "reperations": everybody hates them. Gypsies are the niggers of Europe.
 

Lemmingwise

✊Black in solidarity with black lives matter✊
True & Honest Fan
kiwifarms.net
"Just asking questions" reaches a point where it's clear you're just being a jerkass about it and not trying to actually find any facts on the matter, just go all off on "it didn't happen". The National Socialists explicitly stated in several memoranda and were recorded as saying they were killing Jews in KZs. Einsatzgruppen were sent out to kill Jews. The Nazis hated Jews. Everybody had their "good Jew," but the vast amount of Jews in Nazi occupied Europe were singled out to be killed because the Nazis hated Jews. Whether or not Hitler outright stated "kill all the Jews" it doesn't matter. The Nazis who had power and were the ones with the monopoly of force wanted to please Hitler, so they killed Jews.
Ah, so you're annoyed that I'm not a denier and it would be easier for you if I were. Sorry mate, I'm guided by my conscience.

Maybe if I'm asking questions that require you to reconsider positions, it's not an evil plot, but your own assumed positions (and assumed perception of me) that is at fault. It's clear that you want things in an easily packaged binary, but history is complex by nature.
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
kiwifarms.net
Ah, so you're annoyed that I'm not a denier and it would be easier for you if I were. Sorry mate, I'm guided by my conscience.

Maybe if I'm asking questions that require you to reconsider positions, it's not an evil plot, but your own assumed positions (and assumed perception of me) that is at fault. It's clear that you want things in an easily packaged binary, but history is complex by nature.
You're not a denier, you just act like one.
 
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