The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

xr95

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I genuinely don't know which side you are referring to. The Allied powers that got revenge on Germany for a war they did not start with the treaty of Versailles that resulted in more than 800,000 civilian deaths?
I’m talking about Germany receiving the brunt of punishment after the Great War, which in turn lead to the pent up resentment towards the treaty of Versailles.
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
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I’m talking about Germany receiving the brunt of punishment after the Great War, which in turn lead to the pent up resentment towards the treaty of Versailles.
Is that supposed to excuse what happened to the "genetically inferior" peoples or something? Because I can tell you that in the colonial period the British and the French were much more brutal than the Germans, but whether or not that's because the Germans had little territory outside of Europe compared to those two I don't know.
 
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Forgetful Gynn

Respect for the truth is the basis of all morality
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Is that supposed to excuse what happened to the "genetically inferior" peoples or something? Because I can tell you that in the colonial period the British and the French were much more brutal than the Germans, but whether or not that's because the Germans had little territory outside of Europe compared to those two I don't know.
Again, you're thinking of the USA.
 

Forgetful Gynn

Respect for the truth is the basis of all morality
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Really, because I thought we were talking about National Socialist Germany and such actions they took as murdering the mentally ill, undesireable persons, and sending ethnic groups of people that they considered inferior to be worked to death in labor camps.
Yeah isn't it weird how the nazis did all the things the allies did but nobody ever hears about? It's like the pedophile who pretends to hate pedophiles.
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
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Yeah isn't it weird how the nazis did all the things the allies did but nobody ever hears about? It's like the pedophile who pretends to hate pedophiles.
That doesn't absolve the National Socialists from guilt, you know. And the difference is that we all know about it today, and the American/British eugenicists were very publicly talking about it then. The National Socialists wanted to keep much of it as quiet as possible, and were still doing it as late as April 1945 in the case of Aktion T4, and the SS were very gung ho about still killing as many in the KZs as possible even while the Soviet were invading.

The difference is, when word about stuff like the Tuskegee syphillis experiment got out, people were actively comparing it to Nazi war crimes and Nixon made sure that couldn't happen again, and Bill Clinton publicly apologized for it.
 

Lemmingwise

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The difference is, when word about stuff like the Tuskegee syphillis experiment got out, people were actively comparing it to Nazi war crimes and Nixon made sure that couldn't happen again, and Bill Clinton publicly apologized for it.
Is that really different? Do you think subsequent German leadership never take a path of contrition and apology for what happened during the second world war?
 

Forgetful Gynn

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That doesn't absolve the National Socialists from guilt, you know.
It makes it harder to believe the accusations of the allies.
And the difference is that we all know about it today, and the American/British eugenicists were very publicly talking about it then. The National Socialists wanted to keep much of it as quiet as possible
You mean the "bad guys" were more ashamed and less brazen about it than the "good guys"?
people were actively comparing it to Nazi war crimes and Nixon made sure that couldn't happen again, and Bill Clinton publicly apologized for it.
Yes, but they weren't war crimes because we won the war. War crimes are victor's justice, vae victis, they're not moral statements of objective fact.
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
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Is that really different? Do you think subsequent German leadership never take a path of contrition and apology for what happened during the second world war?
The difference is that the USA is a democratic republic with much more in the way of freedom of expression than National Socialist Germany had, and is not supposed to do things like this. The mass democides carried out by the National Socialists were a bad thing. Regardless of the historical reasons why the Germans snapped and decided "ok fuck you Jews, go die", that doesn't mean it was a good thing to do or have done. The KZs and the extermination thru labor concept were carried out by National Socialist Germany, and the modern German Federal Republic should apologize for that, and should be contrite over that.

The United States has a lot of black spots in their past, but tu quoque doesn't really apply. Yes, the Holocaust was a bad thing. The Holocaust was a horrifying thing. Yes, Negro slavery was a bad thing, but there isn't a Black man alive today who can remember being whipped by Massah, while there are still people who remember being in the camps by order of the National Socialists.

It makes it harder to believe the accusations of the allies.
Not really. There are mounds of evidence that the National Socialists were hell bent and determined to kill Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals, which I've already pointed out in this thread. Some can be dismissed as Soviet propaganda, like the electrified killing floors, but Mengele for instance left a whole lot of evidence (not much of it was actually scientifically useful), and Pernkopf's medical atlas was made from studying the corpses of people killed in the KZs by various methods.

You mean the "bad guys" were more ashamed and less brazen about it than the "good guys"?
The Nazis were never the "good guys." The Americans were never the "good guys". Viewing history thru a lens of "good guys" and "bad guys" isn't how it is. Everyone does things for their own reasons, and everyone is the hero of their own story. Even by the morality of the time this was considered to be a horrible thing, not least because Germans were considered to be cultured and above that, unlike the Asiatic Russians.

Yes, but they weren't war crimes because we won the war. War crimes are victor's justice, vae victis, they're not moral statements of objective fact.
I'm pretty sure killing a bunch of retards, faggots and kikes is a bad thing no matter how much you look at it.
 

Forgetful Gynn

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There are mounds of evidence that the National Socialists were hell bent and determined to kill Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals, which I've already pointed out in this thread.
Yes, and can be summarily discarded as being little more than allied propaganda to justify an inherently unjust war.
Some can be dismissed as Soviet propaganda, like the electrified killing floors
No, actually, The Black Book of Polish Jewry is an American work, backed by no less than the president's wife, Albert Einstein, and others. Why are you denying the horrible atrocities of the holocaust?
The Nazis were never the "good guys." The Americans were never the "good guys". Viewing history thru a lens of "good guys" and "bad guys" isn't how it is. Everyone does things for their own reasons, and everyone is the hero of their own story. Even by the morality of the time this was considered to be a horrible thing, not least because Germans were considered to be cultured and above that, unlike the Asiatic Russians.
And yet, the official take very much forces a "good guys" vs "bad guys" narrative. How do you square that?
I'm pretty sure killing a bunch of retards, faggots and kikes is a bad thing no matter how much you look at it.
Good luck finding a society that hasn't done that. Shit, for extra difficulty, good luck finding a non-white society that doesn't do that to this day. As you said, Everyone does things for their own reasons.
 
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SickNastyBastard

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Okay, look, no matter where you fall on the Holocaust spectrum:

There's absolutely nothing wrong with wanting hard evidence for something. There's absolutely nothing wrong with having questions to facts as presented which lack hard evidence. Likewise, stop throwing out inconvenient pieces of evidence that don't fit your narrative unless you can disprove them somehow. So many otherwise thoughtful or critically-minded people do anything but when this topic comes up.

It is possible to have a world where the a mass death event did take place in some fashion and have the facts about it distorted to the point of lunacy for a seemingly never-ending money/power grab. It's still possible to have a lot of dead prison camp inmates and not have gone out of your way to actively kill them off en masse. It's still possible to have committed acts of atrocity during wartime without having the express intent of flippin' genocide.

Thinking you can shut someone up by accusing them of "just asking questions" is a fake and gay way to shut a conversation down right up there with "whataboutism." They're just bullshit false fallacies designed to make sure you don't have to hurt your pretty little head having to think about something from someone else's perspective or just ignore their (terribly inconvenient to your argument, usually) point entirely. You wanna play the game, but you wanna play it by your own rules. Knock that shit off.

I swear to Christ, it's the same shit no matter how many times I see this topic play out.
Its always 6 million and counting. I just wonder today, as a grown ass man, to see what revisionist history is being taught. There's always some whimsical and titillating new WW2 shit on TV. Why doesn't homeboy Wilhelm II get that kind of love before they "acquitted" him of warcrimes? No one calls me a prussian for calling a black dude a nigger.
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
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Yes, and can be summarily discarded as being little more than allied propaganda to justify an inherently unjust war.
It wasn't altogether unjust. Hitler invaded Poland; is that supposed to be "just"? Britain and France told him to stop grabbing territory. If you want to know what Hitler's ultimate goal was, read Mein Kampf; it was pretty obviously "conquer Russia, unite the Germanic speaking people into one," regardless of what the actual people wanted. There is a reason why WW2 is called in Polish the "Western Betrayal," as they did NOTHING when the USSR invaded.

No, actually, The Black Book of Polish Jewry is an American work, backed by no less than the president's wife, Albert Einstein, and others. Why are you denying the horrible atrocities of the holocaust?
I am completely unfamiliar with that book.

And yet, the official take very much forces a "good guys" vs "badguys narrative. How do you square that?
Dismiss it and look for the actual facts of the issue. It doesn't hurt that Jews basically control Hollywood and the 5 major media megacorporations in the USA. The evidence of the Holocaust is massive and it's there, and the National Socialist regime backed it in memoranda from the bigwigs of the National Socialist govt. Even if it wasn't "straight from Hitler," someone as powerful as Himmler would have had the ear of Hitler, and there was a tendency in the National Socialist hierarchy to just say "we have orders from Hitler" without any actual paperwork.

Good luck finding a society that hasn't done that. Shit, for extra difficulty, good luck finding a non-white society that doesn't do that to this day. As you said, Everyone does things for their own reasons.
That doesn't mean it's a good thing.

Its always 6 million and counting. I just wonder today, as a grown ass man, to see what revisionist history is being taught. There's always some whimsical and titillating new WW2 shit on TV. Why doesn't homeboy Wilhelm II get that kind of love before they "acquitted" him of warcrimes? No one calls me a prussian for calling a black dude a nigger.
There was this thing that happened from 1933-1945 in Germany that greatly eclipsed whatever shit Germany did in the First World War.
 

Forgetful Gynn

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Hitler invaded Poland; is that supposed to be "just"?
No, but neither were the border incursions that started it. Also it's pretty likely that the one of the important leaders of poland was assassinated I can't remember who it was, i'll have to look into it. because he was good friends with hitler and wouldn't have allowed the provocatory border skirmishes that started the whole thing.
I am completely unfamiliar with that book.
That's perfectly understandable, I referenced it here.
Dismiss it and look for the actual facts of the issue.
Hey me too.
It doesn't hurt that Jews basically control Hollywood and the 5 major media megacorporations in the USA.
We agree again.
The evidence of the Holocaust is massive and it's there, and the National Socialist regime backed it in memoranda from the bigwigs of the National Socialist govt.
Here's where you can't tell fiction from reality. Or maybe I can't. Who the hell knows.
"we have orders from Hitler" without any actual paperwork.
Himmler drove around and did it all himself with nothing official ever being written down or transmitted, even by enigma cipher? If they were as capable of secrecy as you're claiming, then we never would have actually found out about it, ever. Shit, you're almost demanding we believe they were capable of telepathy as some have implied.
That doesn't mean it's a good thing.
No, but we'd be here until the sun went out counting every wrong thing man has ever done to achieve his goals.
There was this thing that happened from 1933-1945 in Germany that greatly eclipsed whatever shit Germany did in the First World War.
Yeah, it made a thriving economy and civilization without usury even after being almost completely destroyed and while nearly bankrupting itself by paying jews to leave. Oh what a shock that it was destroyed by nations crippled and controlled by usury and jewry to this day.
 
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TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
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No, but neither were the border incursions that started it. Also it's pretty likely that the previous PM of poland was assasinated, because he was good friends with hitler and wouldn't have allowed the provacotory border skirmishes that started the whole thing.
Of course it was the Poles' fault. It's never the Germans' fault, now is it?

Himmler drove around and did it all himself with nothing official ever being written down or transmitted, even by enigma cipher? If they were as capable of secrecy as you're claiming, then we never would have actually found out about it, ever. Shit, you're almost demanding we believe they were capable of telepathy as some have implied.
No, but there was memoranda signed by him and he also gave speeches explicitly referencing the Einsatzgruppen's goal of killing Jews. It was also referenced in the diaries of Joseph Goebeels, but I don't know if the current English translations are the same as the ones that have been put out in Germany since the 90s, when a more complete set on microfilm was found after the fall of the USSR. (Goebbels was a massive egomaniac.)


Yeah, it made a thriving economy and civilization without usury even after being almost completely destroyed and while nearly bankrupting itself by paying jews to leave. Oh what a shock that it was destroyed by nations crippled and controlled by usury and jewry to this day.
It wasn't "thriving." The economy of the National Socialist state was predicated on fucking over small businesses (forcibly combining them into cartels), creating a quasi serfdom in which farmers were not allowed to leave their lands, and pumping fucktons of money into the munitions manufacturers to build weapons of war. The National Socialists weren't even elected into power; they had at most one third of the seats in the Reichstag, and only got that by rules lawyering and geting the (possibly senile) President Hindenberg to give Hitler extraordinary powers. Jews weren't paid to leave; on the contrary, those who could leave usually had to pay hand over fist in bribes to the local Gauleiters in order to be considered for a passport out of the country. In the mid 30s there was collaboration with Zionist labor unions, but those fizzled out after the war started and the National Socialists backed the much more explicitly anti-British Islamists in Palestine/Transjordan.
 

Lemmingwise

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The KZs and the extermination thru labor concept were carried out by National Socialist Germany, and the modern German Federal Republic should apologize for that, and should be contrite over that.
Wait, you're under the impression that since world war II German political leadership has never apologizes for the holocaust?

That their position is less apologetic than american leadership for things like tuskegee experiments?
 

Forgetful Gynn

Respect for the truth is the basis of all morality
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Of course it was the Poles' fault.
I said he was assassinated, likely by a foreign power outside of poland or germany that would gain from a conflict between the two.
but there was memoranda signed by him
Who found that?
he also gave speeches explicitly referencing the Einsatzgruppen's goal of killing Jews.
You have complete copies of them? One was posted earlier in the thread, but it leads right up to where he starts to mention something about exterminating the jews but then it cuts off immediately.
It was also referenced in the diaries of Joseph Goebeels, but I don't know if the current English translations are the same as the ones that have been put out in Germany since the 90s, when a more complete set on microfilm was found after the fall of the USSR. (Goebbels was a massive egomaniac.)
Again, found by whom?
It wasn't "thriving."
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You can find countless citations for their economic miracle. Practically nobody, regardless of their political stance, denies that.
The economy of the National Socialist state was predicated on fucking over small businesses (forcibly combining them into cartels), creating a quasi serfdom in which farmers were not allowed to leave their lands, and pumping fucktons of money into the munitions manufacturers to build weapons of war.
Where in the hell did you read that?
The National Socialists weren't even elected into power; they had at most one third of the seats in the Reichstag, and only got that by rules lawyering and geting the (possibly senile) President Hindenberg to give Hitler extraordinary powers.
So what?
Jews weren't paid to leave
Like hell they weren't. Between November, 1933, and 31 December 1937, 77,800,000 Reichmarks, or $22,500,000, (~$392,599,166 in 2020) worth of goods were exported to Jewish businesses in Palestine under the program.By the time the program ended with the start of World War II, the total had risen to 105,000,000 marks (~$642,435,000 in 2020). Emigrants with capital of £1,000, (about $95,885 in 2020) could move to Palestine in spite of severe British restrictions on Jewish immigration under an immigrant investor program similar to the modern EB-5 visa. Under the Transfer Agreement, about 39% of an emigrant's funds were given to Jewish communal economic development projects, leaving individuals with about 43% of the funds.

You should give this a watch.
 
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TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
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Wait, you're under the impression that since world war II German political leadership has never apologizes for the holocaust?

That their position is less apologetic than american leadership for things like tuskegee experiments?
No, and I don't understand how you could have gotten that from what I posted.

I said he was assassinated, likely by a foreign power outside of poland or germany that would gain from a conflict between the two.
Who was assassinated?

Who found that?
A US intelligence officer after the war. It made its way to the Hoover Institution. According to Wikipedia the German historian Elke Fröhlich found the microfilm in archives in the former USSR.

edit: sources!


The last source is an article by David Irving, you can't possibly have a problem with that.

You have complete copies of them? One was posted earlier in the thread, but it leads right up to where he starts to mention something about exterminating the jews but then it cuts off immediately.
If you can understand German you can listen to the audio yourself. The main point of contention is that it uses an archaic word that means "root out" and is commonly interpreted to mean "exterminate." As it was a speech given (in various forms) to the SS and the Wehrmacht, there is little doubt as to its meaning.


View attachment 1420643
You can find countless citations for their economic miracle. Practically nobody, regardless of their political stance, denies that.

Where in the hell did you read that?
The "economic miracle" was predicated on the Reich dumping money into arms manufacturers. GDP doesn't tell the whole story; California has a very high GDP, but California also has an incredibly wealth disparity. I read it in contemporary accounts at the time and books written long afterwards.

It means that people didn't vote the Nazis in, they forced themselves in. And wouldn't leave.

Like hell they weren't. Between November, 1933, and 31 December 1937, 77,800,000 Reichmarks, or $22,500,000, (~$392,599,166 in 2020) worth of goods were exported to Jewish businesses in Palestine under the program.By the time the program ended with the start of World War II, the total had risen to 105,000,000 marks (~$642,435,000 in 2020). Emigrants with capital of £1,000, (about $95,885 in 2020) could move to Palestine in spite of severe British restrictions on Jewish immigration under an immigrant investor program similar to the modern EB-5 visa. Under the Transfer Agreement, about 39% of an emigrant's funds were given to Jewish communal economic development projects, leaving individuals with about 43% of the funds.

You should give this a watch.
I can't find an actual source on this. If it were true, then why did the contemporary accounts of Jews say that they had to pay massive bribes to get out of the country, if they could have gotten out of the country? Also, considering the effects of Kristallnacht upon the Jewish businesses, it's unlikely that they would have had such a massive amount as a thousand pounds. I've heard the canard that "there's no such thing as a poor Jew" but that's usually predicated on modern Anglo-American perceptions of Jews, not early 20th century perceptions of Jews.
 
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