The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

xr95

pEoPlE aRe DyInG!
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Is that supposed to excuse what happened to the "genetically inferior" peoples or something? Because I can tell you that in the colonial period the British and the French were much more brutal than the Germans, but whether or not that's because the Germans had little territory outside of Europe compared to those two I don't know.
No, it gives context though on how/why Germany was able to drastically go from a democracy to a dictatorship in a blink of a eye. They had the Rhineland taken from them, which is an insult in of itself and pretty much made Germany a borderline 3rd world country.
Himmler drove around and did it all himself with nothing official ever being written down or transmitted, even by enigma cipher? If they were as capable of secrecy as you're claiming, then we never would have actually found out about it, ever. Shit, you're almost demanding we believe they were capable of telepathy as some have implied.
No offense to Himmler, but the guy himself was a dumbass who when he was trying to hide from the allies, used a SS stamp on his ID papers and within an hour of interrogation, admitted he was Himmler. The Nazi leadership was an combination of war heroes and dumbasses who got very lucky and were disliked by even the Wehrmacht.
 

FlamingPie

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Forgetful Gynn

Riots and comedy are but symptoms of the times
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Was this him? It just says he (and his successor) were exiled, not assassinated.


Edit: I think this one might be closer to what you're talking about:

Yep, that's gotta be him.
A few hours before his death, Sławek met with a man named Bogdan Podoski, to whom he said: "I know it, I feel that they are leading Poland to destruction, and I do not know how to react against it".
Damn, maybe it actually was a suicide. Speaks pretty clearly though about how people in high positions in poland knew they were being manipulated into war by the "allies".
 

Forgetful Gynn

Riots and comedy are but symptoms of the times
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A US intelligence officer after the war.
Oh of course. The murderer always finds the evidence that implicates another.
The last source is an article by David Irving, you can't possibly have a problem with that.
Why? Just because he has a similar viewpoint that makes him right about everything? Come now.
If you can understand German you can listen to the audio yourself. The main point of contention is that it uses an archaic word that means "root out" and is commonly interpreted to mean "exterminate." As it was a speech given (in various forms) to the SS and the Wehrmacht, there is little doubt as to its meaning.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRO04q_lQi4
Oh, he admits they were killing them. Yes, that's well known. As he says, they couldn't suffer to have saboteurs in their midst, as they did the last time the jews tried to start a brutal civil war in 1917. But nowhere in that speech does he say they are killing them in the millions, which honest to god I was expecting to hear out of that and it would have been a damning blow to my worldview. The most he says is "1000 bodies at once." The USA did no less to the japanese, and they did worse to dresden. That one is considered a war crime and the other is not, shows the power of military victory over moral qualms. You want to see what they hoped to prevent?
The "economic miracle" was predicated on the Reich dumping money into arms manufacturers. GDP doesn't tell the whole story; California has a very high GDP, but California also has an incredibly wealth disparity. I read it in contemporary accounts at the time and books written long afterwards.
Who did they sell the arms to? The jewish boycott made exports difficult at best. GDP does tell a story when Germany was so utterly wrecked that it took a wheelbarrow full of reichsmarks to buy food and you had to rush from where you got paid to the store so the inflation wouldn't increase to the point that you could hardly buy anything at all. What about the unemployment rate dropping? What about the loans given to people to start families? What about the Volkswagon or the "Volks" brand at all? Not trying to gish you, there's just a lot of examples of their labor-based economy being a sufficient threat to debt-based economics.
It means that people didn't vote the Nazis in, they forced themselves in. And wouldn't leave.
Hindenburg appointed Hitler as Chancellor of Germany in January 1933 after their party got more and more votes each election. For what little it truly matters, they were given power via democracy. Hitler also promised to give up power as soon as he could, we'll never know if he would have or not, but he never really wanted to be a politician or a war man, the times demanded it from him.
I can't find an actual source on this.
Oh sorry, I left out the link to The Haavara Agreement. Specifically the transfer agreement that I directly cited.
If it were true, then why did the contemporary accounts of Jews say that they had to pay massive bribes to get out of the country, if they could have gotten out of the country?
This may come off to some as a bit of an understatement, but Jews sometimes lie to make themselves look like victims.
Also, considering the effects of Kristallnacht upon the Jewish businesses
Yeah that was most likely a pissed off mob which caused that. Once hitler found out what was happening he threatened the death penalty to anyone who kept that shit up.
it's unlikely that they would have had such a massive amount as a thousand pounds.
No, they had much, much more than that. Many had grown exceedingly wealthy during the Wiemar era off all matters of debauchery and economic theft via banking. Not to mention that Hitler is the only person in history to ever order the arrest of a Rothschild, and the ransom they got for him is still the largest in history. I recommend the book Hitler's Revolution if you would like to know more.
I've heard the canard that "there's no such thing as a poor Jew" but that's usually predicated on modern Anglo-American perceptions of Jews, not early 20th century perceptions of Jews.
No, that's more or less been a sentiment for the last two millenia. Also the "canard" that there's no such thing as an honest jew, as Hadrian might have said.
 

Forgetful Gynn

Riots and comedy are but symptoms of the times
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>Kristallnacht was a pissed off mob

Yeah I'm done talking with you here.
That's unfortunate. I hope you reconsider.

And as usual, he'll run a victory lap, thinking that "being so obtuse and retarded that everyone eventually gives up trying to reason with you" is the same as being a genius debater with unassailable positions.
Clearly the superior form of argument is to mark every post you don't like as mad at the internet while saying nothing as if downvotes matter on this forum.
 

エボラちゃん

♥~No cure for Love~♥
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How can you guys talk about the Holocaust & revisionism without discussing about this man?
The way he was treated looks surprisingly familiar:
(Quote from the link I posted earlier since it appears nobody bothered reading)

"For more than 30 years, French scholar Robert Faurisson was known as an intrepid, intellectually formidable, and courageous critic of the familiar Holocaust narrative. His extensive writings and many lectures, which were based on considerable research and study, enraged powerful enemies who waged a fierce, relentless campaign to silence him.

Regarded as Europe’s foremost Holocaust revisionist scholar, he was perhaps most renowned, and notorious, for his view that there was no systematic mass extermination of Jews in gas chambers during World War II. On the basis of controversial “Holocaust denial” laws that selectively criminalize dissident views on this emotion-laden subject, French authorities repeatedly brought him to court, where he was punished with fines and prison sentences.

Following his death, a tribute to this “intrepid and indomitable man” was published in the French periodical Rivarol. “... Robert Faurisson threatened powerful interests,” wrote Jérôme Bourbon. “Those of the State of Israel and international Zionism whose power, durability, immunity and impunity are essentially based on the Holocaust Dogma. Those of the Allies and the sacrosanct crusade of the democracies against the Axis forces. Those of leftists of all stripes for whom it is necessary that the nationalist regimes of the inter-war period in Europe are absolute evil, but not Communism in all its forms, Leninist, Stalinist, Maoist, Trotskyist.” Faurisson not only “threatened the ideological foundations of the world order resulting from the last war,” Bourbon continued, “but he challenged a real religion, or rather a counter-religion, Holocaust worship ... The death of this giant, of this monument, is an irreparable loss. We have not finished measuring how much he will miss. For how many men are there today of his temper, his erudition, his talent, his bravery, his tenacity? And yet even without him the fight for historical truth must continue.”

Robert Faurisson was born on January 25, 1929, in Shepperton, England. His father was French and his mother was Scottish. As a boy and young man, he attended schools in Singapore, Japan, and in France. He was educated at a Lycée in Paris, and at the renowned Sorbonne. He received his “State Doctorate” in letters and the humanities from the Sorbonne in 1972, where he also taught from 1969 to 1974.

From 1974 until 1990, Faurisson was a professor of French literature at the University of Lyon II. He was a recognized specialist of text and document analysis, and was the author of four books on French literature.

After years of private research and study, Prof. Faurisson first made public his skeptical views about the Holocaust extermination story in two items published in December 1978 and January 1979 in the influential Paris daily Le Monde.

In the archives of the Auschwitz State Museum in Poland, Faurisson discovered the technical and architectural drawings of the Auschwitz morgues, the crematories and other installations. He is the first person to publicize these important documents, and to point out their significance.

In the years after 1978, Dr. Faurisson presented his critical view of the familiar Holocaust extermination narrative in numerous articles, in many interviews, in several books, and in stunning April 1979 debate on a Swiss television network with prominent defenders of the “exterminationist” view. He worked closely on the French revisionist quarterly, Annales d’Histoire Revisionniste, during the three years of its existence. He also worked on the successor quarterly, Revue d'Histoire Revisionniste. Many of his scholarly articles were published in English in The Journal of Historical Review. A four-volume collection of many of his writings, Écrits Révisionnistes (1974-1998 ), was published in 1999.

Faurisson played an important role in both the 1985 and 1988 “Holocaust trials” in Toronto, Canada, of Ernst Zundel. His role in those legal battles went far beyond his testimony on the stand as a witness. Especially during the 1985 trial, he spent hundreds of hours -- often working all day and very late into the night -- preparing questions used by defense attorney Doug Christie in his devastating interrogations of Raul Hilberg, Rudolf Vrba and other prosecution witnesses.

Faurisson’s most important contribution to the defense in the 1988 trial may well have been his key role in securing the participation of Fred Leuchter, an American gas chamber specialist. Faurisson played an important role in arranging for Leuchter’s on-site investigation in Poland of supposed extermination gas chambers, and in making public the American’s remarkable findings.

Much about Faurisson’s role in the 1988 “Holocaust trial” in Toronto can be found in the 562-page book edited and compiled by Barbara Kulaszka, Did Six Million Really Die?: Report of the Evidence in the Canadian 'False News' Trial of Ernst Zündel.

For years various government agencies and influential organizations waged a concerted campaign to silence him. He was obliged to defend himself many times in French courts for his forthright writings and statements. He had to contend with numerous court convictions.

His bank account was frozen, and court officials repeatedly visited his home to threaten him and his wife with seizure of their furniture to pay for financial “damages” imposed for his “heretical” remarks. Because of this campaign, his family life has been repeatedly disrupted and thrown into turmoil. His health suffered terribly.

In response to Faurisson’s provocative question about how, precisely and technically, the alleged wartime homicidal gassings were carried out, two leading French Jewish intellectuals drafted a solemn declaration, which was signed by 34 historians and published in February 1979 in Le Monde. In words that betrayed the weakness of their argument, they declared:

“It must not be asked how, technically, such a mass murder was possible. It was technically possible given that it took place. That is the requisite point of departure of any historical inquiry on this subject. It is incumbent upon us to simply state this truth: there is not, there cannot be, any debate about the existence of the gas chambers.”

During an interview in December 1980 with the French radio network “Europe 1,” Faurisson summarized the result of his historical research in one sentence of 60 French words. Here is that sentence, in English:

“The alleged Hitlerite gas chambers and the alleged genocide of the Jews constitute one and the same historical lie, which made possible a gigantic financial-political fraud, the principal beneficiaries of which are the State of Israel and international Zionism, and whose principal victims are the German people -- but not their leaders -- and the entire Palestinian people.”

That sentence, he declared 23 years later, “requires no changes.”

For those provocative words, Faurisson was brought to trial on criminal charges of racial defamation and incitement to racial hatred. In July 1981 he was found guilty and given a suspended three month prison sentence, fined several thousand francs, and ordered to pay 3.6 million francs for the cost of making public the verdict on television and in periodicals. However, in June 1982 an appeals court threw out the charge of incitement to racial hatred and eliminated the 3.6 million franc payment.

Among his other legal travails, in June 1995 a Paris court ordered Faurisson to pay a fine of $3,000 for writing Réponse à Jean-Claude Pressac sur le problème des chambres à gaz (“Response to Jean-Claude Pressac on the problem of the gas chambers”), a book that disputes claims of Second World War mass killings in German gas chambers. Henri Roques, another French revisionist, was likewise fined $3,000 by the court for distributing the work. (Roques is also the author of The 'Confessions' of Kurt Gerstein.)

On September 25, 1997, Faurisson came to trial for a statement made in April 1996 about the Garaudy-Abbé Pierre affair in which he mentioned “the imposture of the Nazi gas chambers.” During the trial he told the court: “We are only three years away from the year 2000, and there are billions of people who are asked to believe in something they have never seen and don't even know how it worked!” The prosecutor asked for a new kind of sentence: either imprisonment or a fine, to which Faurisson responded by declaring: “I hereby make a commitment that I shall not buy and shall not pay for my freedom. No one has ever bought me and no one will ever buy me.”

As expected, the Paris court handed down a guilty verdict. On October 23, 1997, it ordered Faurisson to pay 120,600 francs ($20,000), divided into three parts: 50,000 francs as a fine, 20,600 francs for a Jewish attorney, and 50,000 to pay for the publication of the summary of the court's judgment in two daily newspapers, as well as (unprecedentedly) in the Journal officiel de la République française. Faurisson paid the Jewish lawyer and was paying the fine in installments. However, he did not have to pay to promulgate the court judgment because, he later learned, the anti-revisionist organizations decided that they did not wish to see the publication of the words “the imposture of the Nazi gas chambers.”

In December 1997 Faurisson received a summons from a Paris court official for an essay, “The Horned Visions of the Holocaust,” that had been posted on a website without his prior knowledge or approval. In this piece Faurisson wrote that “The Holocaust of the Jews is a fiction.” He responded to the summons with a stern letter in which he defiantly declared his refusal to “collaborate” with French justice authorities and police in the repression of revisionism.

On March 16, 1998, Faurisson had to appear before a Paris court to stand trial for a short definition of “revisionism,” as inaccurately reported in a newspaper.

On April 8, 1998, Faurisson was set to stand trial in Amsterdam for the publication in 1991 in Dutch of his detailed critical analysis of the Anne Frank Diary. The Anne Frank Museum in Amsterdam and the Anne Frank Fonds in Basel, Switzerland, jointly brought the legal action. The Museum complained that it had been obliged to provide special training for its guides to respond to Faurisson's arguments, and that his critique might reduce the number of its visitors.

Faurisson’s detailed critique of the Diary was an important, and perhaps crucial, factor in moving / prodding “establishment” scholars to eventually acknowledge that the familiar text, which millions accepted as authentic, was essentially a misrepresentation, and in fact was a heavily edited re-working of various texts.

On October 3, 2006, a Paris court found Faurisson guilty of “Holocaust denial” for having said, during an interview with Iranian television, that “there was never” a single execution gas chamber used by the Germans during World War II. That remark, the court found, was a violation of France’s “Holocaust denial” statute, the 1990 “Gayssot” law that makes it a crime to dispute or contest crimes against humanity, as defined by the joint military commission of the victorious Allied powers that met as a tribunal at Nuremberg 1945-46. After finding that Faurisson’s remark during the interview constituted “complicity in contesting the existence of a crime against humanity,” as determined by the Nuremberg inter-Allied tribunal, the court gave Dr. Faurisson a suspended prison sentence of three months, and fined him 7,500 euros (about $9,500).

For his views Faurisson was repeatedly a victim of physical assault. Between November 1978 and May 1993 he was a victim of ten attacks, at least nine of them carried out by Jewish thugs. None of the criminal assailants in any of these assaults has ever been brought to justice. The most savage was a nearly fatal attack on September 16, 1989, for which a group calling itself “The Sons of the Memory of the Jews” claimed responsibility.

Faurisson died on Oct. 21, 2018, at his home in Vichy, central France, just as he was returning from a visit to England. He was 89.


For Further Reading
Impact and Future of Holocaust Revisionism, by Robert Faurisson
(http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v19/v19n1p-2_Faurisson.html )
How the British Obtained the Confessions of Auschwitz Commandant Höss, by Robert Faurisson
( http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v07/v07p389_Faurisson.html )
Is The Diary of Anne Frank Genuine?, by Robert Faurisson
( http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v03/v03p147_Faurisson.html )
Auschwitz: Facts and Legend, by Robert Faurisson
( http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n4p14_Faurisson.html )
An Orthodox Historian Finally Acknowledges: There is No Evidence for Nazi Gas Chambers, by Robert Faurisson
( http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n4p24_Faurisson.html )
The Secular Religion of `The Holocaust,’ by Robert Faurisson
( http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2009/03/secular-religion-of-holocaust-tainted.html )
Paying Tribute to Jewish Power: `Ah, How Sweet It Is ...,’ by Robert Faurisson
( http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p11_Faurisson.html )
French Court Orders Heavy Penalties Against Faurisson for Holocaust Views, by Robert Faurisson
( http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n2p26.html )
Jewish Militants: Fifteen Years, and More, of Terrorism in France, by Robert Faurisson
( http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n2p-2_Faurisson.html )
The Zionist Terror Network, by Mark Weber
( http://www.ihr.org/books/ztn.html )
Jewish Harassment: Targeting A Prominent French Revisionist, by Robert Faurisson
( http://robertfaurisson.blogspot.com/2014/08/the-case-of-gregory-chelli-alias-ulcan.html
Robert Faurisson: A Long View, by Arthur R. Butz
( https://codoh.com/library/document/1643/ )
A Freedom Fighter to His Last Breath: Robert Faurisson, by Michael Hoffman
( http://www.unz.com/article/a-freedom-fighter-to-his-last-breath/ ) "
 
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Cyril Sneer

Why is the "Peace" symbol a Norse "Death" rune?
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Never mind that prisoners were shot and/or worked to death in Buchenwald. Also, Koch's execution also had a lot to do with the fact that he was a spastic that lost a bunch of Soviet prisoners and kept embezzling Nazi funds.
The first and primary accusation against Koch was killing inmates (and, if memory serves, prying the gold teeth out of their skulls post-mortem). Charges of embezzlement were added later.

It should probably be noted here that it was a very common practice amongst US troops in the Pacific to dig the gold teeth out of Japanese skulls and/or keep the skulls as trophies (apparently, a full 50% of all the remains of Japanese soldiers who died fighting on the Mariana Islands were found to be headless when repatriated back to their families many years after the war), and Eugene Sledge's memoirs indicate that the donors of the teeth and skulls weren't always dead to begin with. It actually got to the point where Democratic Congressman Francis E. Walter gifted President Roosevelt with a letter-opener carved from a Japanese soldier's arm in the summer of 1944.

AWM_072837.jpeg


japenese_skull_1944_small.jpg


sz7PZ_Y0_tdxxnklW2GY5BHF8wsAgTRD-1Z-dDMTGG4.jpg


In light of this penchant for trophy-taking, you have to wonder if the wild Nuremberg claims of human lampshades and soap of German manufacture grew out of some desire to deflect attention away from American atrocities where human body parts were concerned. 🤔

To my knowledge, which is mostly based on works by the polish historian Franciszek Piper (I don't know how well known he is outside Germany/Poland, but he has a pretty good reputation in academia where I live. His estimates are around ~1.1 million total casualties, so much lower than the 4 million number that used to float around way back in the day), arrivals that were immediately executed (unfit for labor fx) were not registered, since the Auschwitz register was only for the ones who were actually "utilized" (not the ones "sorted" on arrival). Instead, the deaths of these "unfit" were recorded and said records sent in regular intervals to (what I'd translate as) the SS bureau for labor and economics and the main security office. A lot of these records (though not all of them, otherwise we couldn't be sure they existed aside from SS testimony, but luckily some remain) were destroyed starting in 1944, but what we do have, is very meticulous train manifests and who was on these trains and where they were headed. And, well, if a person is registered as heading to Auschwitz and then doesn't show up in the labor register and is never heard from again, there's a good chance they didn't "make the cut".
So again, there's no evidence of intentional extermination, just speculation.

Also, while not disparaging Piper personally or specifically, this seems like a good place to digress a bit about early 20th century Poland. It tends to be forgotten/overlooked that interwar Poland wasn't, by the 1930s, all that different in many ways from National Socialist Germany (or at least the popular conception of the latter), being an intensely nationalist, expansionist regime that was effectively a military dictatorship, the Polish army's Marshal Jozef Pilsudsky having overthrown the previous, democratically-elected government in a 1926 coup. Though pre-WWII Polish ambitions of absorbing Czechoslovakia (which wasn't exactly the cuddliest regime in the neighborhood, either) ultimately came to naught, they did end up coming into full possession of (formerly 98% German-inhabited) Danzig, and Poles carried out massacres of Ethnic Germans in Polish-controlled territory before and after the war, so, as much as ongoing Jewish attempts to shake them down in a similar fashion to Germany must be an ongoing annoyance, Poland certainly benefits from the monolithic, all-consuming stature of the Holocaust mythos in the popular understanding of atrocities carried out during WWII.
 
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FlamingPie

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To be fair, I've heard that the soap thing actually was debunked, even by a lot of Holocaust historians, as an urban legend, which was one part Nazis psychologically fucking with their victims and one part anti-German propaganda on the part of the Soviets, which was recycled from WWI propaganda.

Also, maybe it's me, but I don't think even your regular Nazi would have been far gone enough to want to bathe with soap made from the corpses of "undesirables". More likely, they would have been disgusted and outraged enough to take the soap and smash the windows of the places that sold the stuff.
 

Lemmingwise

Judging you internally
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response to Faurisson’s provocative question about how, precisely and technically, the alleged wartime homicidal gassings were carried out, two leading French Jewish intellectuals drafted a solemn declaration, which was signed by 34 historians
Reminds me of that old Einstein quote in response to the "100 authors agains einstein" publication.

"Why 100? If I were wrong, one would have been enough."
 

Cyril Sneer

Why is the "Peace" symbol a Norse "Death" rune?
kiwifarms.net
To be fair, I've heard that the soap thing actually was debunked, even by a lot of Holocaust historians, as an urban legend, which was one part Nazis psychologically fucking with their victims and one part anti-German propaganda on the part of the Soviets, which was recycled from WWI propaganda.
I'm fairly certain that it's one of those claims that's been quietly discarded from "official" accounts for a while now. Still, it was one of the accusations at Nuremberg, which kind of indicates what level of good faith and sincerity that the prosecutors (including some veterans of Stalin's show trials) were operating on. Interestingly, Georg Konrad Morgen, the SS judge who prosecuted Karl-Otto Koch, related to American historian John Toland that he had been beaten by Allied interrogators for stating that he had found no evidence of any repurposed human body parts or byproducts at Buchenwald.

Also, maybe it's me, but I don't think even your regular Nazi would have been far gone enough to want to bathe with soap made from the corpses of "undesirables". More likely, they would have been disgusted and outraged enough to take the soap and smash the windows of the places that sold the stuff.
I don't think that the "average Nazi" would have been so much of a psycho as to want anything to do with soap made from human corpses in the first place, let alone "undesirables," but that kind of touches on one of the major reasons as to why I'm interested in this debate (beyond pure contrarian cussedness at the idea that there are historical events that one cannot question) and in pulling the image of National Socialist Germany and its figureheads out from under the all-consuming veil of leftover wartime propaganda: as @Johan Schmidt mentions, what we're seeing now is that A: the extent to which "Nazis" are becoming dehumanized icons of evil in current discourse is becoming more and more extreme, and B: the grounds for qualifying as a "Nazi" oneself are being continually expanded, to the point where even mild disagreement with the globalist/leftist platform is sufficient to slap a metaphorical swastika on one's forehead. Anyone with half a brain should be able to see that this is a dangerous and disturbing trend, especially given the valorization/glamorization of grotesque violence directed against "Nazis" in examples of contemporary entertainment like Inglorious Basterds or the new Wolfenstein series (where brutally beating to death a random enemy soldier is presented as something somewhere between a rite-of-passage and adolescent hijinks like cow-tipping).
 
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Lemmingwise

Judging you internally
True & Honest Fan
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which was one part Nazis psychologically fucking with their victims and one part anti-German propaganda on the part of the Soviets, which was recycled from WWI propaganda.
Glad to hear americans and survivors were innocent bystanders in this myth.

You know, I have no difficulty seeing the machiavellian and responsibility for deaths that the world war II german leadership had. The amount of deaths, including needless death they're responsible for is through the roof.

But what I don't understand is the reflexive knee jerk defense of either soviets or american leadership. Or the ease at which self-serving stories are bought.

We're supposed to believe that germans were tight lipped and secretive about their planned genocide remember? They went so far as to pretend to send people to showers and then gas them. This is the official narrative, is it not?

Why then would they say they're turning people into soap as a kind of psychological warfare? Wouldn't that go against the strategy of leading them as lambs to the slaughter?
 
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Forgetful Gynn

Riots and comedy are but symptoms of the times
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Why then would they say they're turning people into soap as a kind of psychological warfare? Wouldn't that go against the strategy of leading them as lambs to the slaughter?
They had to retcon the soap because it was less believable and easier to disprove than the wooden-doored gas chambers, or the lampshades, or the eagle and the bear, or the tall trees, or the masturbation machines (until the wolf saved them), or the instant vaporization electrocution pads, or the original mr. bones wild ride; the holocoaster, wherein whole carts of jews would race down a track to be instantly dumped into an oven at rocket speed.

Give them some credit, the first draft of any story is always full of errors and inconsistencies.
 
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Krokodil Overdose

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what we do have, is very meticulous train manifests and who was on these trains and where they were headed. And, well, if a person is registered as heading to Auschwitz and then doesn't show up in the labor register and is never heard from again, there's a good chance they didn't "make the cut".
So do we have a total number of deportations? I've been looking for a total number of survivors, but can never get a straight answer for reasons I'm not entirely clear on.
 
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Bloitzhole

OH RUSTY ANCHOR
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So again, there's no evidence of intentional extermination, just speculation.
Well, Nazi transport manifests list approximately 900.000 persons shipped to Auschwitz beyond the 400k figure that were registered there (these transport manifests were sent to the "auswärtige Amt", the department/ministry for foreign affairs if you will). 438.000 deportations from Hungary alone, which are particularly well documented (as in, we know the amount of trains, which we do for all, but also the amount of people per transport, which is fx lacking and sometimes overestimated in Poland). If, to you, it is speculation that the people in these 141 trains were killed there, there must be some alternative as to what happened to the nearly 1 million people that were officially transported there by train, and why such large amounts of trinkets and baubles were shipped to the SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungs-Hauptamt (SS main department of economic governance) and I can't conceive of one tbh.

As previously mentioned, we do have three of the original documents that detailed prisoner killed-on-arrival from the SS bureau I outlined. I believe the university library in my area will reopen next week and I'll see if I can find Piper's work and perhaps reference the archive that currently has them (a lot of these are scanned nowadays).

On a side note - even among the registered, we have 202.000 dead. It's a bit of a stretch to me that 202.000 registered inmates just died "unintentionally".

So do we have a total number of deportations? I've been looking for a total number of survivors, but can never get a straight answer for reasons I'm not entirely clear on.
Deportations to Auschwitz? Yes, quite detailed ones that give us the total figure of 1 million+ - I draw these mostly from an old paper from a seminar that had a lot of sources, as I don't have access to the primary sources atm.

Note that these figures do not include the transports from other camps (approx 210K + 42K from Theresienstadt, which was the ghetto for bohemia and moravia and can be assumed that people from that area went to that camp first), these are just transports from country X to Auschwitz.

438.000 from Hungary. Well documented because each jew was registed in Hungary and the ambassador regularly sent reports on deportations, plus we have transport manifests. This is one statistical figure that is pretty much never disputed, it's just too well documented.

Poland is estimated by Piper at 300K - the original figures assumed 5000 people per transport, which he considered too high. Polish documents do not detail the average amount of people per transport in general (but transports themselves are catalogued), but we have different numbers documented for different time periods for trains this size used in the rest of the reich and he used the more conservative estimates for each time period to reach 300K.

Slowakia - 27K (transport manifest from the HQ in Bratislava), of which 18725 were deported in 1942 and 7936 in 1944.

Jugoslavia: Very poorly documented. Based on the Korherr report, which is a statistical report from 1943 for Heinrich Himmler detailing how many jews were "processed" during the final solution, particularly in the east, the estimate is at ~10-12K

France hat 75.721 deported, 69.114 to Auschwitz ( The figure is from the french historian Klarsfeld, I wanna say in the 80s)

The Netherlands have their documents detailing a total of 102.893 deported Jews from 1942 to 1944 - 60.085 to Auschwitz.

Greece is one where I am not super trusting of the figure because it took a lot of sources to calculate it - a polish historian, Danuta Czech, puts the figure at 55K in the 1970s

Italy has transport manifests listing a total of 8369, of which 7422 went to Auschwitz according to Donati's Deportazione degli Ebrei dall'Italia

Norway - around 690, of which 158 were sent to Auschwitz. Korherr Report again, Norwegian police reports of the time confirm it.

The archive "Gedenkbuch" (memorial book) in Koblenz of 1986 lists a total of 128091 Austrian-German jews killed (in differing locations), of which 38.574 are last listed as being deported to Auschwitz, 23.000 directly (when I write directly, I mean that 23K had that as their initial destination and weren't in other camps first. These direct deportations are important to distinguish because otherwise we might count some people twice)

Survivors is a hard thing to gauge when it comes to Auschwitz, not because of a lack of figures but rather, what do you call "surviving". We have manifests on how many people left Auschwitz (223.000) in one way or another (and these are not counted by Piper as "killed in Auschwitz") - but if you leave Auschwitz, only to die a week later marching/during transport/in another camp, is that considered "surviving"?
 
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Cyril Sneer

Why is the "Peace" symbol a Norse "Death" rune?
kiwifarms.net
Well, Nazi transport manifests list approximately 900.000 persons shipped to Auschwitz beyond the 400k figure that were registered there (these transport manifests were sent to the "auswärtige Amt", the department/ministry for foreign affairs if you will). 438.000 deportations from Hungary alone, which are particularly well documented (as in, we know the amount of trains, which we do for all, but also the amount of people per transport, which is fx lacking and sometimes overestimated in Poland). If, to you, it is speculation that the people in these 141 trains were killed there, there must be some alternative as to what happened to the nearly 1 million people that were officially transported there by train, and why such large amounts of trinkets and baubles were shipped to the SS-Wirtschafts-Verwaltungs-Hauptamt (SS main department of economic governance) and I can't conceive of one tbh.
Again, though, if no other explanation is possible, why is it necessary to forbid free inquiry into the matter on pain of imprisonment or fine? Why bolster accounts of a supposedly self-evident apparatus of industrialized killing with ghoulish forgeries like shrunken heads and human-skin lampshades? When the Germans invaded Poland, they did so under allegations that Polish civilians (and in many cases, Polish military units), inflamed by nationalist demogogues, were killing ethnic Germans en masse, and mutilating the bodies. The German authorities also retained rather extensive documentary evidence consistent with these accusations, so why couldn't the Allies keep their own stories straight?

Survivors is a hard thing to gauge when it comes to Auschwitz, not because of a lack of figures but rather, what do you call "surviving". We have manifests on how many people left Auschwitz (223.000) in one way or another (and these are not counted by Piper as "killed in Auschwitz") - but if you leave Auschwitz, only to die a week later marching/during transport/in another camp, is that considered "surviving"?
Considering that we now have second/third/fourth-generation "survivors" running around now...
 
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