The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

schizoid PD

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Not all 6 gorillon were killed in the ovens. Most were killed via starvation, disease, and Einsatzgruppen sweeps across the areas. It's notable that the mass deportations of German Jews occurred in the last 2 years of the war. German Jews. The East was allowed to do its own thing as long as they sent back tribute to the Nazis in the West. The savagery of the Ukrainians and the Poles towards their Jews surprised even the most hardcore Nazis.
The issue is.... most people believe right now: That far right activists under the direction of Trump as a Russian puppet are planning to turn the USA into a Fourth Reich. Now.... I have have the internet, so I can access alternative sources and know that to be untrue. But I wonder... what of people in 1938? Where's their alternate news source? I'm not saying it's absolutely wrong, but in that age... When the paper was the only source. Who do you believe? No one even ever mentions the mass rapes in Germany today.

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TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
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The issue is.... most people believe right now: That far right activists under the direction of Trump as a Russian puppet are planning to turn the USA into a Fourth Reich. Now.... I have have the internet, so I can access alternative sources and know that to be untrue. But I wonder... what of people in 1938? Where's their alternate news source? I'm not saying it's absolutely wrong, but in that age... When the paper was the only source. Who do you believe? No one even ever mentions the mass rapes in Germany today.

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In 1938 there wouldn't have been much in the way of "alternative news" besides listening to shortwave radio broadcasts. (Fun Fact: in the Louis-Schmeling fight, Reichs Rundfunk cut off when Schmeling was losing while people who knew English were listening to the shortwave from KDKA in the USA)

Everyone knew about the mass rapes. It got so bad that the Catholic bishops in Eastern Germany said that abortion was no longer a mortal sin because of it.
 

K. V. Bones

The Internet Investigator
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As someone who believes the accuracy of history is a sacred subject.

I personally believe that the holocaust happened BUT the kill count is far lower than "confirmed"
Its hard enough to kill another fellow human being let alone 6 fucking million.
 

TaimuRadiu

Kaiserin
kiwifarms.net
As someone who believes the accuracy of history is a sacred subject.

I personally believe that the holocaust happened BUT the kill count is far lower than "confirmed"
Its hard enough to kill another fellow human being let alone 6 fucking million.
German efficiency is a thing to behold. The Soviets weren't able to kill as many people in their territories in the same time as the Germans did. The Germans also kept meticulous paperwork.
 

K. V. Bones

The Internet Investigator
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German efficiency is a thing to behold. The Soviets weren't able to kill as many people in their territories in the same time as the Germans did. The Germans also kept meticulous paperwork.
So you're telling me "That's the power of German Engineering."
 
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Super-Chevy454

kiwifarms.net
German efficiency is a thing to behold. The Soviets weren't able to kill as many people in their territories in the same time as the Germans did. The Germans also kept meticulous paperwork.
Is it far-fetched to think then Stalin might ordered to use some Russian Jews as cannon fodder against the Germans? :thinking:
 

Meat Target

I'm what you call a professional
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I know I'm late to this thread, but

As someone who believes the accuracy of history is a sacred subject.

I personally believe that the holocaust happened BUT the kill count is far lower than "confirmed"
Its hard enough to kill another fellow human being let alone 6 fucking million.
Well, there's a difference between being actively killed by a bullet in the head or being stuffed in an oven, and being passively killed by being malnourished, overworked, and sick while incarcerated in a black site during a war in which supplies are scarce.

So it's ridiculous to say that anyone is saying "all 6 million were killed by the death rollercoasters/skin peelers/masturbation machines". One could argue that being starved and worked to death, rather than simply being gassed or shot, makes it more cruel and heinous.

As far as survivors whose stories turn out to be Smollett-jobs: that's to be expected. People tell tall tales about major historical events all the time. It's not much different than, say, a "Marine veteran" who claims to have killed fitty men when he really spent his "service" scrubbing the heads at Parris Island.
 

K. V. Bones

The Internet Investigator
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I know I'm late to this thread, but


Well, there's a difference between being actively killed by a bullet in the head or being stuffed in an oven, and being passively killed by being malnourished, overworked, and sick while incarcerated in a black site during a war in which supplies are scarce.

So it's ridiculous to say that anyone is saying "all 6 million were killed by the death rollercoasters/skin peelers/masturbation machines". One could argue that being starved and worked to death, rather than simply being gassed or shot, makes it more cruel and heinous.

As far as survivors whose stories turn out to be Smollett-jobs: that's to be expected. People tell tall tales about major historical events all the time. It's not much different than, say, a "Marine veteran" who claims to have killed fitty men when he really spent his "service" scrubbing the heads at Parris Island.
Holy shit you posted pretty much my exact thoughts. I think it's only right to be as accurate as possible in respect for the dead.

I mean it seems like trump's chosen just say gas chambers instead of telling their ancestors actual story for some sort of pity. I mean I dont get the reason either say i dunno 2 million of the 6 were killed by gunshot. Why just say OY VEY GAS CHAMBAS?
 
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Senior Lexmechanic

See you in a couple months, maybe.
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Holy shit you posted pretty much my exact thoughts. I think it's only right to be as accurate as possible in respect for the dead.

I mean it seems like trump's chosen just say gas chambers instead of telling their ancestors actual story for some sort of pity. I mean I dont get the reason either say i dunno 2 million of the 6 were killed by gunshot. Why just say OY VEY GAS CHAMBAS?
The only people who talk about the Holocaust as "The Nazis killed 6 million Jews with gas chambers at Auschwitz" are people who want to create the most fragile version of the Holocaust possible, so they can subsequently "debunk" it.
The chambers stand out most prominently in memory and pop culture because it was the industrialization of genocide. Ethnic cleansing is as old as ethnicity, but there is a certain horribleness in creating what amounts to a death factory.
 

wtfNeedSignUp

kiwifarms.net
The issue is.... most people believe right now: That far right activists under the direction of Trump as a Russian puppet are planning to turn the USA into a Fourth Reich. Now.... I have have the internet, so I can access alternative sources and know that to be untrue. But I wonder... what of people in 1938? Where's their alternate news source? I'm not saying it's absolutely wrong, but in that age... When the paper was the only source. Who do you believe? No one even ever mentions the mass rapes in Germany today.

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I'm pretty sure that 80 years ago they were far more newspapers with different takes people could learn from, with the last few decades the newspaper agencies got centrilized into about 5 mega corps.
 

Forgetful Gynn

Riots and comedy are but symptoms of the times
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In 1938 there wouldn't have been much in the way of "alternative news" besides listening to shortwave radio broadcasts.
Which the US government quickly shut down.
Coughlin increasingly attacked the president's policies. The administration decided that, although the First Amendment protected free speech, it did not necessarily apply to broadcasting, because the radio spectrum was a "limited national resource," and as a result, it was regulated as a publicly owned commons. The authorities imposed new regulations and restrictions for the specific purpose of forcing Coughlin off the air. For the first time, the authorities required regular radio broadcasters to seek operating permits.
After hinting at attacks on Jewish bankers, Coughlin began to use his radio program to broadcast antisemitic commentary. In the late 1930s, he supported some of the fascist policies of Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, and Emperor Hirohito of Japan. The broadcasts have been described as "a variation of the Fascist agenda applied to American culture". His chief topics were political and economic rather than religious, using the slogan "Social Justice". After the outbreak of World War II in Europe in 1939, the Roosevelt administration finally forced the cancellation of his radio program and forbade distribution by mail of his newspaper, Social Justice.

German efficiency is a thing to behold. The Soviets weren't able to kill as many people in their territories in the same time as the Germans did. The Germans also kept meticulous paperwork.
It's especially remarkable as there is no evidence that there was ever a general order for the mass execution. They're so efficient, they just all decided at once and coordinated it without any paper trail being left behind.
One could argue that being starved and worked to death, rather than simply being gassed or shot, makes it more cruel and heinous.
It would be, but as the Red Cross never witnessed such things on their investigations, it's quite hard to argue that it was intentional. Lots of people starved to death during and after WW2 and WW1 purely as a result of the supply lines being deliberately targeted, mostly germans being significantly mistreated or just outright murdered like in the Firebombing of Dresden. Or in the case of post WW1, the ports all being intentionally blockaded.
Why just say OY VEY GAS CHAMBAS?
Because every other method they came up with was too ludicrous or easily disproved. The shooing of jews into trees and then cutting them down, the cage with the bear and the eagle where the bear would maul you and the eagle would pick your bones, the electrocution/vaporization pads, the masturbation machines, the lampshades and the soap, etc etc. The less people know about the circumstances the less they have to question. It's always best to keep a lie simple.
How come there isn't one autopsy confirming an inmate 'gassed' by Zyklon B?
Because they were all burned, conveniently obviously.
 

The Last Stand

I need more gin.
True & Honest Fan
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It's not "questioning the narrative", it's edgy, racist deniers like @Forgetful Gynn that use a significant, horrific event as a joke to excuse your anti-Semitic behavior like Hilter personally would give you a seat on his Nazi regime. By doing that, you ARE giving Jews like Laura Loomer ammo to deflect criticism using the Holocaust as a shield.
 

Krokodil Overdose

[|][||][||][|_]
kiwifarms.net
The chambers stand out most prominently in memory and pop culture because it was the industrialization of genocide. Ethnic cleansing is as old as ethnicity, but there is a certain horribleness in creating what amounts to a death factory.
This is a weird argument on it's face, and doesn't improve on examination. I'm not Ayn Rand or MovieBob- I don't think there's an inherent moral dimension to industrializing a process, industrialization is merely the application of technology as a force multiplier; the crime in "murdering people efficiently" is the "murdering people" part, not the "efficiently" part. But this argument gets extra-weird when it's trotted out to downplay Soviet atrocities, because when you unpack it, it turns into "the Soviets were less bad than the Nazis because their victims died more slowly." Which is true after a fashion, starvation does take a lot longer to kill you than gassing, but considering that executions are a circumstance where it is specifically evil to make the victim suffer, I don't see how Uncle Joe comes out ahead in this calculation to anyone except fellow travelers.

The unfortunate fact is that historically, the Holocaust isn't unique, special, or even particularly interesting once you strip away all the political baggage. It's only by coming up with arcane, cherry-picked criteria that people keep claiming the contrary.
 

FlamingPie

kiwifarms.net
The only people who talk about the Holocaust as "The Nazis killed 6 million Jews with gas chambers at Auschwitz" are people who want to create the most fragile version of the Holocaust possible, so they can subsequently "debunk" it.
True, but I think even a lot of Holocaust questioners/deniers would consider them to be quacks and not to be taken seriously.
 

St8Bustah

分かりませんwwwww
kiwifarms.net
It's not "questioning the narrative", it's edgy, racist deniers like @Forgetful Gynn that use a significant, horrific event as a joke to excuse your anti-Semitic behavior like Hilter personally would give you a seat on his Nazi regime. By doing that, you ARE giving Jews like Laura Loomer ammo to deflect criticism using the Holocaust as a shield.
I'm sorry but that's not an argument, lol
 
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