The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

Chugger

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Sep 22, 2021
Depends on cash liquidity, amortization of debts is always better than upfront because of inflation. If you weren't a moron you'd know this. Why would you pay more in resources to kill someone you are using in a labor camp and thus deny yourself exponentially?
They didn't plan on using the deported Jews for labor, as I've mentioned before


1634929788760.png
 

Bonesjones

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They didn't plan on using the deported Jews for labor, as I've mentioned before


View attachment 2648752
So your claim is they deported all the unfit jews to this camp and then killed them? Then destroyed all traces of the killings without anyone knowing or being able to prove it?

They accidently leftover evidence of a portion of the bodies due to sloppiness, so this is proof that they did kill them all and did a bad job of hiding it? You know this because?

Or does the evidence fit that they were sending them east for resettlement and worsening war conditions ended up with deaths that they took care of in the best most hygenic manner they could?
 

Chugger

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Sep 22, 2021
So your claim is they deported all the unfit jews to this camp and then killed them? Then destroyed all traces of the killings without anyone knowing or being able to prove it?
"All traces"?

They accidently leftover evidence of a portion of the bodies due to sloppiness, so this is proof that they did kill them all and did a bad job of hiding it? You know this because?
"Portion of the bodies"?

Kola's descriptions of the graves are exactly what you would expect from the given testimony, and not at all consistent with "transit camp" theory
 

Bonesjones

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You said they systematically murdered them all, ad hoc graves are evidence they didn't. Since they weren't pre-planned and on purpose. Ruins your narrative.

It does support that many people at a time died of starvation and disease and were properly disposed of.

I know you don't think and just post links that all say the same thing. It's just funny at this point.
 

Chugger

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You said they systematically murdered them all, ad hoc graves are evidence they didn't. Since they weren't pre-planned and on purpose. Ruins your narrative.

It does support that many people at a time died of starvation and disease and were properly disposed of.

I know you don't think and just post links that all say the same thing. It's just funny at this point.

33 graves--some 15 feet deep, 100 feet long, 30 feet wide, filled with layers of cremains but no bodies (meaning they destroyed the bones for some reason) eg grave number 5

Grave number 4 is said to contain 250 cubic meters of "crematory contents". That's like a 20 x 40 foot swimming pools worth

Perhaps the graves were ad-hoc (meaning improvised), but what leads you to believe these descriptions are not consistent with mass murder and body destruction? Be specific please.

Mass Graves Numbered 1-33 Are listed in the Order of Discovery

Grave Pit No. 1


The grave pit No. 1 was situated in the north-western part of the camp. It was in the shape of an irregular rectangle with the size of 40 meters by 12 meters and with a depth of 4.80 meters. The pit was filled with bodies in wax-fat, transformation; from the depth of about 2 meters burnt human bones and charcoal were mixed together. Such contents were already found at the depth of about 20-30 cm's from the surface. Burnt human bones and charcoal were also found samples drilled out in the area around the pit. Underground waters appeared at the depth of 4.10 meters. The estimated volume of the pit was about 1,500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 2

Located in the north-eastern part of the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 14 meters by 6 meters, with the depth of 2 meters. Crematory grave with the volume of about 170 meters.

Grave Pit No. 3

Located in the southern part of the camp. This was the first mass grave, the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944. It appears as a T-shaped white patch and has the appearance of being the biggest grave in the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 16 meters by 15 meters and a depth of over 5 meters. The grave contained a mixture of carbonised wood, fragments of burnt human bones, pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburned human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid wax-fat transformation. The volume of the pit was about 960 meters.

Grave Pit No.4

The pit was registered at the borderline in the southern part. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle and dimensions were determined as 16 meters by 6 meters. The drilling was suspended at the depth of 2.30 meters because of a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation. The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.5

Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters.

Grave Pit No. 6

This grave was located in the south-central part of the camp. It had the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 30 meters by 10 meters with a depth of 4 meters. The ashes were scattered around the grave, reaching the depth of 1 meter. The grave contained homogenous crematory contents. The volume of the pit was about 1200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 7

This grave was located in the north-central part of the camp, where one of the concrete pylons, commemorating the camps victims was erected during the 1960's was situated. The shape of the pit similar to a high trapezoid, with dimensions of 13 meters by 14 meters, and a height of about 27 meters, and the depth of 4.5 meters. The grave was homogenous with crematory ashes and sand. The lowest layer with the thickness of over 1.5 meters contained the most intensive traces of body ashes. The upper layer contained brick rubble and stones at the depth of 0.8 meters. The volume of the grave was about 1600 meters.

Grave Pit No. 8

This grave was located in the south-western part of the camp. The second pylon from the 1960's was erected over it. The general shape of the grave was in the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 28 meters by 10 meters. Additional drilling revealed that 2 neighbouring graves existed, joined together as one, at a later date. The depth of the original grave was about 4 meters, and the bottom layer consisted of dense crematory remains. The fillings were covered with 20 -30 cm of sand, coming probably from the soil separating the graves. The ditch created that way, with the depth of 2 meters was filled with body ashes, charcoal and brick rubble. The volume of the pit amounted to about 850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 9

A relatively small grave with an irregular shape was located in the eastern part of the camp, between the pylon, and the present line of the camp enclosure. The pit was an irregular shape with the dimensions of 8 meters by 10 meters. The depth exceeded 3.80 meters. The contents of the pit were crematory remains and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 280 meters.

Grave Pit No. 10

One of the biggest graves located in the north-central part of the camp. It was rectangular in shape, with dimensions of 24 meters by 18 meters. The grave was very deep, over 5.20 meters, and the drills were stopped because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters. One drill at the depth of 4.40 meters revealed the appearance of several centimetres layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains, mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 2100 meters.

Grave Pit No.11

This grave of relatively small volume was located in the north-eastern corner of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 9 meters by 5 meters with a depth of 1.90 meters. A small layer of crematory remains was found. At the depth of about 50 cm remains of musty wood was located. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 80 meters.

Grave Pit No.12

Located immediately to the north of grave pit 10, an L-shaped grave with the foot measuring 20 meters, with a depth that reached below 4 meters. The grave contained crematory in layers. In the separating layers charcoal and brick rubble was found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 13

Located towards the west of grave No. 12. One of the concrete ever-burning fires from the 1960's was placed over it. Dimensions of the grave which was trapezoid in shape, was determined as 12.50 meters by 11 meters and a height of 17 meters, with a depth reaching up to 4.80 meters. The grave contained body remains of mixed character. There was a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation with a thickness of about 1 meter in the bottom part; directly over it there was a layer of sand and lime. Above there were layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The volume of the grave was estimated at 920 meters.

Grave Pit No. 14

The vast grave basin of an irregular shape was located in the western part of the fenced camp area. The grave's dimensions were 37 meters by 10 meters. The average depth of the grave was about 5 meters. The grave contained crematory remains, and the drills revealed pieces of glass and plastic. The graves volume was over 1850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 15

Located in the north-western part of the camp. This grave on its surface had the second concrete ever-burning fire from the 1960's. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle, and the dimensions were about 13.50 meters by 6.50 meters and reached the depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory remains. The estimated volume was about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No.16

Located in the north-western part of the camp, under the third existing concrete ever-burning fire. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 9.50 meters, with the depth of about 4 meters. In the bottom layers lime presence was found. The grave contained crematory ashes in layers with sand. The shallow drilling close to the grave confirmed the presence of burnt bones. The volume of the grave amounted to about 700 meters.

Grave Pit No. 17

Located east of grave No.16. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 17 meters by 7.50 meters with a depth up to 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. Burnt bones were also placed in layers with sand. A layer of rich lime was found in three drills at the depth of about 3 meters. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No.18

Located in the eastern part of the camp, to the east of the grave pit No. 15. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and charcoal. In the bottom part traces of lime were found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 570 meters.

Grave Pit No. 19

Located in the eastern part of the camp, directly under the first concrete fire. The ditch had the shape of a square with sides of about 12 meters. The depth of the grave was not more than 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes with a high density of human bones and charcoal. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 20

This grave was situated directly to the south of Grave Pit No.12 and its western part exceeded slightly the present enclosure of the camp. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 26 meters by 11 meters, with a depth of 5 meters. The grave contained layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The farthest western drill contained not only body ashes, but pieces of musty paper and wood, a piece of a nail and brick rubble. The volume of the grave amounted to about 1150 meters.

Grave Pit No. 21

Located centrally in the camp. This was a relatively small grave 5 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of 1.70 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes which were reported at a depth of 70 cm. The volume of the grave amounted to about 35 meters.

Grave Pit No. 22

Located in the eastern part of the camp, under the eastern end of the alley, running in front of the concrete pylons symbolising the graves, erected during the 1960's. The grave had a shape close to a flattened triangle with the base of about 9 meters and the height of 15 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 23

Located in the central part of the camp. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 8.50 meters, with a depth exceeding 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 550 meters.

Grave Pit No.24

Located in the southern part of the camp, just to the south of the fifth concrete ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 20 meters by 5.50 meters with the depth of about 5 meters. The grave contained irregular layers of crematory ashes and lime. The lowest layer of ashes with the thickness circa 60 cm was covered with about 40 cm thick layer of sand. Above that regular surface of body ashes and sand were reported. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 520 meters.

Grave Pit No.25

Located in the southern part of the camp under the alley, between the fifth and the sixth ever-burning fire. The dimensions of the grave was about 12 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 4 meters. The bottom of the grave contained 40 -50 cm layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with a layer of lime. Above that there was a layer with the thickness of about 60 -80 cm, covered with an 80 cm layer of sand. Over it was another intensive layer of burnt wood with a thickness of 80-100 cm covered with a surface bed of humus-like sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.26

Located in the south central part of the camp, under the alley close to the sixth ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 13 meters by 7 meters with a depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, with clear layers of ashes, charcoal and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 320 meters.

Grave Pit No. 27

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 25. It was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 6 meters with a depth of about 5 meters. The bottom part of the grave consisted of nearly 1 meter thick layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation, above it there was a 20-25 cm thick layer of lime - over 2 meter thick intensive layer of charcoal with small amounts of crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 450 meters.

Grave Pit No.28

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 27. Two clear layers of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with lime were reported. Above them was found intensive structures of charcoal without body ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 70 meters.

Grave Pit No. 29

Located in the central part of the camp. It was the shape of an irregular rectangle with the dimensions of about 25 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 900 meters.

Grave Pit No.30

Located in the central part of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 5 meters by 6 meters. The crematory remains were noted only from the depth of 2.70 meters. Above that a high density of charcoal was found. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 75 meters.

Grave Pit No. 31

A relatively small grave located to the north from grave pit No. 30. The grave was probably in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 9 meters by 4 meters, with a depth of 2.60 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, mixed with sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 90 meters

Grave Pit No.32

Located in the north western corner of the presently enclosed area of the camp. The grave was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 15 meters by 5 meters, with the depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained bodies in wax-fat transformation, covered with lime at the depth of about 3.60 meters. Above that there was a mixed structure of crematory ashes with charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 33

A relatively small grave located in the north-western corner of the presently existing borderline of the camp, which went beyond the fence. The grave had dimensions of 9 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 3 meters. The grave contained the remains of crematory ashes and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 120 meters.
 

Bonesjones

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Again you have to prove the industrialized genocide of millions of people. Not that bad things happened. I know it's hard since you are a literally retarded shill nigger.
 

Chugger

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Sep 22, 2021
Again you have to prove the industrialized genocide of millions of people. Not that bad things happened. I know it's hard since you are a literally exceptional shill nigger.
So to be clear, do you agree that the physical findings at Belzec support the witness and documentary evidence that hundreds of thousands were killed there?

If you're satisfied here, we can move on. I agree, Belzec as currently claimed is only 10% of the Holocaust
 

Bonesjones

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So to be clear, do you agree that the physical findings at Belzec support the witness and documentary evidence that hundreds of thousands were killed there?

If you're satisfied here, we can move on. I agree, Belzec as currently claimed is only 10% of the Holocaust
No.
 

Chugger

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Sep 22, 2021
OK then, you said to me earlier today "Witness testimony isn't worth anything without correlating physical evidence. "

Can you tell me why (being specific) Kola's study and particularly his descriptions don't correlate with the mass body destruction witnesses describe? What should he have found instead?
 

CreamyHerman’s

(Worrying intensified)
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Hey @Chugger, good job on refuting holocaust deniers on here, they're pretty much very autistic.

Here is an interesting video regarding a former Holocaust denier:
 

Chugger

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Hey @Chugger, good job on refuting holocaust deniers on here, they're pretty much very autistic.

Here is an interesting video regarding a former Holocaust denier:
Hunt's debate vs Fritz Berg (a respected, 'major' revisionist) is almost 4 hours long https://archive.org/details/EricHFriedrichBergPart1Of4/Eric+H-+Friedrich+Berg+-+Part+1+of+4.mp3

If I remember correctly Hunt's argument was that the evidence presented was sound, and revisionists have no evidence for their own theory. Fritz kept trying to change the subject from resettlement and frequently became hysterical. The debate is almost unlistenable lol
 

Super-Chevy454

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I saw that article posted last October who might be a Pandora's box about the Holocaust.
Why Not Question “the Holocaust” in Schools?
The standard narrative does not stand up to serious historical scrutiny

There has been major pushback against a Texas state education official who said that if schools are adhering to a new state law that mandates teaching alternative points of view on controversial issues having a course and a book on the holocaust, for example, would suggest providing material that reflects other interpretations of that historical event. The comment came from a Texas school district administrator named Gina Peddy in the Carrollton Independent School District in Southlake, which is in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, who was in a training session explaining to teachers her directive regarding which books can be available in classroom libraries. She told teachers that if they have books about the Holocaust in their classrooms, they should also have books that offer “opposing” or “other” viewpoints on the subject.

Reportedly a staff member who was present secretly made an audio recording of the training session which was then shared with NBC News, which broke the story.

The Texas law was and is intended to lessen the impact of the current “woke” campaign by progressive educators to rewrite American and international history to reflect the dark side, notably by emphasizing issues like slavery and oppression of minorities. Texas legislators insist, not unreasonably, that presenting an essentially negative view of American history as envisioned by Critical Race Theory (CRT) must be balanced by having a curriculum that also includes discussion of the many positive achievements of the United States of America. In the recording, Peddy, the school district’s executive director of curriculum and instruction, told the teachers that the new law applies to any “widely debated and currently controversial” issues. She was quoted as saying “And make sure that if you have a book on the Holocaust, that you have one that has an opposing, that has other perspectives.”

Predictably, on such a hot wire issue Peddy has had little or no support from her peers either locally or in the education establishment. The school district Superintendent Lane Ledbetter posted on Facebook an “apology regarding the online article and news story.” He said Peddy’s comments were “in no way to convey that the Holocaust was anything less than a terrible event in history. Additionally, we recognize there are not two sides of the Holocaust. We also understand this bill does not require an opposing viewpoint on historical facts.”

Clay Robison, a spokesman for the Texas State Teachers Association, responded “We find it reprehensible for an educator to require a Holocaust denier to get equal treatment with the facts of history. That’s absurd. It’s worse than absurd. And this law does not require it.” Republican state Senator Bryan Hughes, who wrote the bill that became the law, denied that anyone should come up with alternative views on what he called matters of “good and evil” or to remove books that offer only one perspective on the Holocaust.

Jews in Peddy’s school district and elsewhere in both Texas and nationally have inevitably also risen to the bait, denouncing any attempt made to challenge what they view as an issue fundamental to their understanding of their place in the world and in history. One Jewish former student Jake Berman asserted that “The facts are that there are not two sides of the Holocaust. The Nazis systematically killed millions of people.”
 

wtfNeedSignUp

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I saw that article posted last October who might be a Pandora's box about the Holocaust.
It's just a gotcha, the definition of what constitutes as controversial is weak and by the same token schools should have books about why monarchism is a good system of government.
 

Neo-Holstien

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True & Honest Fan
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It's just a gotcha, the definition of what constitutes as controversial is weak and by the same token schools should have books about why monarchism is a good system of government.
yes, I would like schools give children options rather than TV-race libshit faggotry 24-7. Allowing the advication of monarchism and opening up the great blood liable would be for the best
 

Super-Chevy454

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It's just a gotcha, the definition of what constitutes as controversial is weak and by the same token schools should have books about why monarchism is a good system of government.
At this rate, the token schools should have some books about the Armenian Genocide and the Holodomor as well.

And speaking of the Armenian Genocide, I saw this article about why Israel don't recognize the Armenian Genocide because of Turkey and the way Erdogan scrap Turkey currently...
 

Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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You know, I already deboonked the Belzec pits in the other thread, and you never responded to this.

In a nutshell, the pits are layered with sand, and many of them also contain building rubble like brick and glass. (Imagine calling a garbage dump a mass grave). Then I showed that wood burning cremation produces a massive amount of ash and other debris (wood burning is not very efficient and leaves a lot of half-burnt wood). Then I showed how the insane amount of ash, doesn't actually fit into these graves which are layered with sand and filled with building rubble.
 
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Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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Also, you had said yourself that the main way the Germans burned the bodies was with open air wood burning pits (this takes a massive amount of wood) but never provided evidence of this, only asserted that it probably happened because otherwise the holocaust wouldn't make sense.

You were wise to claim that the bodies were burned with wood (even though this is clearly false) because it is even more clearly false that any of the camps used their crematoria to burn hundreds of thousands of bodies, as they never received enough coal shipments nor had enough ovens to do this.

Also, where the hell did the bones go? Bones can't be cremated, they need to be ground down. If there are hundreds of thousands of bodies, then that is mountains of bone dust. This will have a massive volume as well. Where is it? You can claim any ashes from the kitchen are cremated corpses but I would like to know where the bones are.
 
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Chugger

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Sep 22, 2021
@Rapechu

Sorry I must have missed your previous post, please show?

I believe I never said the bodies were burned primarily with wood. Witnesses don't say this was the case, and wood ash ("charcoal"--you can see he differentiates here) more likely than not isn't found in the described crematory layers. Probably (corroborated by witnesses) they were primarily burned on rails and doused with gasoline, which would have been easier to bring into the camp than tons and tons of wood.

In these verbatim quotes from Kolas study of Belzec, keyword "crematory" (... layers/remains/contents) hits like thirty times. Crematory layers are shown to make up half of very large graves like grave number 5 . What is he talking about here and what other definition of 'cremation' are you taking?

Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters.

By the way the bones were either ground into fine fine dust or were removed, since Kola does not usually mention them in connection with 'crematory contents''. Witness statements say they were filtered out and utilized elsewhere, most likely as bone meal.



Anyway, here are the verbatim grave descriptions.

Mass Graves Numbered 1-33 Are listed in the Order of Discovery

Grave Pit No. 1


The grave pit No. 1 was situated in the north-western part of the camp. It was in the shape of an irregular rectangle with the size of 40 meters by 12 meters and with a depth of 4.80 meters. The pit was filled with bodies in wax-fat, transformation; from the depth of about 2 meters burnt human bones and charcoal were mixed together. Such contents were already found at the depth of about 20-30 cm's from the surface. Burnt human bones and charcoal were also found samples drilled out in the area around the pit. Underground waters appeared at the depth of 4.10 meters. The estimated volume of the pit was about 1,500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 2

Located in the north-eastern part of the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 14 meters by 6 meters, with the depth of 2 meters. Crematory grave with the volume of about 170 meters.

Grave Pit No. 3

Located in the southern part of the camp. This was the first mass grave, the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944. It appears as a T-shaped white patch and has the appearance of being the biggest grave in the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 16 meters by 15 meters and a depth of over 5 meters. The grave contained a mixture of carbonised wood, fragments of burnt human bones, pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburned human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid wax-fat transformation. The volume of the pit was about 960 meters.

Grave Pit No.4

The pit was registered at the borderline in the southern part. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle and dimensions were determined as 16 meters by 6 meters. The drilling was suspended at the depth of 2.30 meters because of a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation. The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.5

Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters.

Grave Pit No. 6

This grave was located in the south-central part of the camp. It had the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 30 meters by 10 meters with a depth of 4 meters. The ashes were scattered around the grave, reaching the depth of 1 meter. The grave contained homogenous crematory contents. The volume of the pit was about 1200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 7

This grave was located in the north-central part of the camp, where one of the concrete pylons, commemorating the camps victims was erected during the 1960's was situated. The shape of the pit similar to a high trapezoid, with dimensions of 13 meters by 14 meters, and a height of about 27 meters, and the depth of 4.5 meters. The grave was homogenous with crematory ashes and sand. The lowest layer with the thickness of over 1.5 meters contained the most intensive traces of body ashes. The upper layer contained brick rubble and stones at the depth of 0.8 meters. The volume of the grave was about 1600 meters.

Grave Pit No. 8

This grave was located in the south-western part of the camp. The second pylon from the 1960's was erected over it. The general shape of the grave was in the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 28 meters by 10 meters. Additional drilling revealed that 2 neighbouring graves existed, joined together as one, at a later date. The depth of the original grave was about 4 meters, and the bottom layer consisted of dense crematory remains. The fillings were covered with 20 -30 cm of sand, coming probably from the soil separating the graves. The ditch created that way, with the depth of 2 meters was filled with body ashes, charcoal and brick rubble. The volume of the pit amounted to about 850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 9

A relatively small grave with an irregular shape was located in the eastern part of the camp, between the pylon, and the present line of the camp enclosure. The pit was an irregular shape with the dimensions of 8 meters by 10 meters. The depth exceeded 3.80 meters. The contents of the pit were crematory remains and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 280 meters.

Grave Pit No. 10

One of the biggest graves located in the north-central part of the camp. It was rectangular in shape, with dimensions of 24 meters by 18 meters. The grave was very deep, over 5.20 meters, and the drills were stopped because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters. One drill at the depth of 4.40 meters revealed the appearance of several centimetres layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains, mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 2100 meters.

Grave Pit No.11

This grave of relatively small volume was located in the north-eastern corner of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 9 meters by 5 meters with a depth of 1.90 meters. A small layer of crematory remains was found. At the depth of about 50 cm remains of musty wood was located. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 80 meters.

Grave Pit No.12

Located immediately to the north of grave pit 10, an L-shaped grave with the foot measuring 20 meters, with a depth that reached below 4 meters. The grave contained crematory in layers. In the separating layers charcoal and brick rubble was found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 13

Located towards the west of grave No. 12. One of the concrete ever-burning fires from the 1960's was placed over it. Dimensions of the grave which was trapezoid in shape, was determined as 12.50 meters by 11 meters and a height of 17 meters, with a depth reaching up to 4.80 meters. The grave contained body remains of mixed character. There was a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation with a thickness of about 1 meter in the bottom part; directly over it there was a layer of sand and lime. Above there were layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The volume of the grave was estimated at 920 meters.

Grave Pit No. 14

The vast grave basin of an irregular shape was located in the western part of the fenced camp area. The grave's dimensions were 37 meters by 10 meters. The average depth of the grave was about 5 meters. The grave contained crematory remains, and the drills revealed pieces of glass and plastic. The graves volume was over 1850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 15

Located in the north-western part of the camp. This grave on its surface had the second concrete ever-burning fire from the 1960's. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle, and the dimensions were about 13.50 meters by 6.50 meters and reached the depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory remains. The estimated volume was about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No.16

Located in the north-western part of the camp, under the third existing concrete ever-burning fire. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 9.50 meters, with the depth of about 4 meters. In the bottom layers lime presence was found. The grave contained crematory ashes in layers with sand. The shallow drilling close to the grave confirmed the presence of burnt bones. The volume of the grave amounted to about 700 meters.

Grave Pit No. 17

Located east of grave No.16. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 17 meters by 7.50 meters with a depth up to 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. Burnt bones were also placed in layers with sand. A layer of rich lime was found in three drills at the depth of about 3 meters. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No.18

Located in the eastern part of the camp, to the east of the grave pit No. 15. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and charcoal. In the bottom part traces of lime were found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 570 meters.

Grave Pit No. 19

Located in the eastern part of the camp, directly under the first concrete fire. The ditch had the shape of a square with sides of about 12 meters. The depth of the grave was not more than 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes with a high density of human bones and charcoal. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 20

This grave was situated directly to the south of Grave Pit No.12 and its western part exceeded slightly the present enclosure of the camp. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 26 meters by 11 meters, with a depth of 5 meters. The grave contained layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The farthest western drill contained not only body ashes, but pieces of musty paper and wood, a piece of a nail and brick rubble. The volume of the grave amounted to about 1150 meters.

Grave Pit No. 21

Located centrally in the camp. This was a relatively small grave 5 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of 1.70 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes which were reported at a depth of 70 cm. The volume of the grave amounted to about 35 meters.

Grave Pit No. 22

Located in the eastern part of the camp, under the eastern end of the alley, running in front of the concrete pylons symbolising the graves, erected during the 1960's. The grave had a shape close to a flattened triangle with the base of about 9 meters and the height of 15 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 23

Located in the central part of the camp. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 8.50 meters, with a depth exceeding 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 550 meters.

Grave Pit No.24

Located in the southern part of the camp, just to the south of the fifth concrete ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 20 meters by 5.50 meters with the depth of about 5 meters. The grave contained irregular layers of crematory ashes and lime. The lowest layer of ashes with the thickness circa 60 cm was covered with about 40 cm thick layer of sand. Above that regular surface of body ashes and sand were reported. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 520 meters.

Grave Pit No.25

Located in the southern part of the camp under the alley, between the fifth and the sixth ever-burning fire. The dimensions of the grave was about 12 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 4 meters. The bottom of the grave contained 40 -50 cm layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with a layer of lime. Above that there was a layer with the thickness of about 60 -80 cm, covered with an 80 cm layer of sand. Over it was another intensive layer of burnt wood with a thickness of 80-100 cm covered with a surface bed of humus-like sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.26

Located in the south central part of the camp, under the alley close to the sixth ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 13 meters by 7 meters with a depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, with clear layers of ashes, charcoal and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 320 meters.

Grave Pit No. 27

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 25. It was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 6 meters with a depth of about 5 meters. The bottom part of the grave consisted of nearly 1 meter thick layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation, above it there was a 20-25 cm thick layer of lime - over 2 meter thick intensive layer of charcoal with small amounts of crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 450 meters.

Grave Pit No.28

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 27. Two clear layers of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with lime were reported. Above them was found intensive structures of charcoal without body ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 70 meters.

Grave Pit No. 29

Located in the central part of the camp. It was the shape of an irregular rectangle with the dimensions of about 25 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 900 meters.

Grave Pit No.30

Located in the central part of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 5 meters by 6 meters. The crematory remains were noted only from the depth of 2.70 meters. Above that a high density of charcoal was found. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 75 meters.

Grave Pit No. 31

A relatively small grave located to the north from grave pit No. 30. The grave was probably in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 9 meters by 4 meters, with a depth of 2.60 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, mixed with sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 90 meters

Grave Pit No.32

Located in the north western corner of the presently enclosed area of the camp. The grave was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 15 meters by 5 meters, with the depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained bodies in wax-fat transformation, covered with lime at the depth of about 3.60 meters. Above that there was a mixed structure of crematory ashes with charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 33

A relatively small grave located in the north-western corner of the presently existing borderline of the camp, which went beyond the fence. The grave had dimensions of 9 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 3 meters. The grave contained the remains of crematory ashes and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 120 meters.
 
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Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
kiwifarms.net
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Sep 28, 2021
Was there ever any effort made to quantize the volume of ashes separate from the soil, charcoal, mud, random garbage dump detritus (paper, building rubble, etc.)?

Are there records of how much gas was delivered to Belzec? I will have to examine them to see if burning a body in the open air with gas is feasible given the German economy which was famously strangled for oil.

Also, was there ever any effort to determine the source of the ashes on each layer? Did the facility burn wood for heat? Did it burn coal? Did it have a power generator? How were the waste products from daily life separated from the ashes of bodies? Do you know the estimated volume of ash produced by the facility on an average day of facility maintenance?

It states clearly here in your quote that there are bodies in the pits (this is to be expected, as it is known that there were disease outbreaks in the camps, which the SS was ordered to reduce deaths from by any means possible, I can post this document on request). A full body takes up 2-3 orders of magnitude the volume of cremated ashes. Was this ever quantized?

Do you have records of bone meal being exported from the camps? There was an order (I will have to dig it up, google is censoring searches for it) given to camps specifically not to do weird things with the bodies like turning them into soap. This order was issued precisely because this is the same sort of propaganda that was made in ww1 where Germans were mutilating or processing the bodies of their enemies (these ww1 era lies are now widely debunked). So this would be considered against German law to process the bodies into bone meal and use it as fertilizer.
 

Chugger

kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Was there ever any effort made to quantize the volume of ashes separate from the soil, charcoal, mud, random garbage dump detritus (paper, building rubble, etc.)?

There are illustrations of the samples taken here https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/hol...nvestigation-of-belzec-mass-graves-t1174.html

Yes, charcoal, soil, etc are differentiated from ashes, though because the Nazis mixed the ashes with sand, getting any exact figure would require full removal of all or most contents of the graves

Are there records of how much gas was delivered to Belzec? I will have to examine them to see if burning a body in the open air with gas is feasible given the German economy which was famously strangled for oil.

There are no records of just about anything being delivered to Belzec. No construction materials or anything. All records were ordered destroyed by Globocnik, along with the camps which were razed and plowed over. I've detailed that in this thread


Also, was there ever any effort to determine the source of the ashes on each layer? Did the facility burn wood for heat? Did it burn coal? Did it have a power generator? How were the waste products from daily life separated from the ashes of bodies? Do you know the estimated volume of ash produced by the facility on an average day of facility maintenance?

The source of the ashes is termed "crematory" by Kola, which has but one definition if I'm not mistaken. Wood is not cremated. Humans are.

It states clearly here in your quote that there are bodies in the pits (this is to be expected, as it is known that there were disease outbreaks in the camps, which the SS was ordered to reduce deaths from by any means possible, I can post this document on request). A full body takes up 2-3 orders of magnitude the volume of cremated ashes. Was this ever quantized?
There are bodies in these graves, yes, but most were taken out and destroyed, then the ashes dumped back into the grave. That's why the graves are so massive--20,000 cubic meters according to Kola, and he didn't do a full survey because some of the former area of the camp is on private property. To house 500,000 bodies worth of ash, roughly 1000 cubic meters of space would be required (I detailed this calculation earlier in the thread)

Do you have records of bone meal being exported from the camps? There was an order (I will have to dig it up, google is censoring searches for it) given to camps specifically not to do weird things with the bodies like turning them into soap. This order was issued precisely because this is the same sort of propaganda that was made in ww1 where Germans were mutilating or processing the bodies of their enemies (these ww1 era lies are now widely debunked). So this would be considered against German law to process the bodies into bone meal and use it as fertilizer.
They used hair, so why not bone meal? Nevertheless strong evidence hasn't been presented here so we can only speculate. But Kola did not find crumbled bones in most crematory layers, so based on his study we can surmise they were either separated or completely pulverized (you can speculate about the reasons for this).
 

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