The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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These illustrations are very hard to make out, given that multiple legend items seem to appear almost identical. It is physically painful to me to strain my eyes enough to try to make out the difference between bone and building rubble.
Yes, charcoal, soil, etc are differentiated from ashes, though because the Nazis mixed the ashes with sand, getting any exact figure would require full removal of all or most contents of the graves
It would be good enough to identify layers containing ashes and then take samples throughout the grave, and analyze the content to determine the average composition.

Ashes are the most important part of the whole question here, because bodies are huge compared to ashes.
There are no records of just about anything being delivered to Belzec. No construction materials or anything. All records were ordered destroyed by Globocnik, along with the camps which were razed and plowed over. I've detailed that in this thread


The source of the ashes is termed "crematory" by Kola, which has but one definition if I'm not mistaken. Wood is not cremated. Humans are.
How is the source of the ashes determined? Is it assumed all ash is crematoria ash or is it differentiated from non-crematoria ash? You can easily identify coal ash from human ash because it has a different composition. Was this ever attempted?
There are bodies in these graves, yes, but most were taken out and destroyed, then the ashes dumped back into the grave. That's why the graves are so massive--20,000 cubic meters according to Kola, and he didn't do a full survey because some of the former area of the camp is on private property. To house 500,000 bodies worth of ash, roughly 1000 cubic meters of space would be required (I detailed this calculation earlier in the thread)
The pits seem to be big because they're filled with random debris and are layered with soil. The bodies are not all perfectly cremated into ash though, which is the big problem here. Many bodies are unburnt, and many are only partially burnt, which indicates a fuel shortage. It seems to indicate the same logistical problems that Auschwitz has: why would you design a death factory which is so sorely lacking in proper facilities for corpse disposal? The very fact that bodies had to be burnt out in the open using fuel-inefficient and ad-hoc methods, only seems to indicate that this was an unplanned event which they were reacting to, rather than something that was planned for and executed intentionally.
They used hair, so why not bone meal? Nevertheless strong evidence hasn't been presented here so we can only speculate. But Kola did not find crumbled bones in most crematory layers, so based on his study we can surmise they were either separated or completely pulverized (you can speculate about the reasons for this).
It is largely standard procedure to pulverize the bones after a cremation because otherwise you have a bunch of burnt skeletons. There were burnt skeletons and bone fragments in the pits, so this seems to indicate that the Germans weren't pulverizing the corpses, at least not to a meticulous degree.
 

Chugger

kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
These illustrations are very hard to make out, given that multiple legend items seem to appear almost identical. It is physically painful to me to strain my eyes enough to try to make out the difference between bone and building rubble.
Yes, the scan isn't so good. You can find the study at USHMM or other libraries https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/bib74566

How is the source of the ashes determined? Is it assumed all ash is crematoria ash or is it differentiated from non-crematoria ash? You can easily identify coal ash from human ash because it has a different composition. Was this ever attempted?
Kola is a trained archeologist and was able to determine this. Is he flat out lying? This seems to be the best revisionist argument.
The pits seem to be big because they're filled with random debris and are layered with soil. The bodies are not all perfectly cremated into ash though, which is the big problem here. Many bodies are unburnt, and many are only partially burnt, which indicates a fuel shortage. It seems to indicate the same logistical problems that Auschwitz has: why would you design a death factory which is so sorely lacking in proper facilities for corpse disposal? The very fact that bodies had to be burnt out in the open using fuel-inefficient and ad-hoc methods, only seems to indicate that this was an unplanned event which they were reacting to, rather than something that was planned for and executed intentionally.
They're not filled with random debris according to Kola's study. Yeah they didn't remove and cremate all the bodies, particularly the ones at the bottom that would have been more difficult to remove. They probably left a few thousand down there (out of 400,000)

Yes they were burnt out in the open just like at Dresden and Auschwitz (because Crematoria have trouble processing thousands and thousands of bodies every day). If you have concerns with the incredible amount of fuel being consumed for this, can you compare it to other uses of fuel by the Germans as seen here
1637629061275.png


Or the analysis I did here where I calculated destroying 6 million bodies (a gross overestimate) would take about .5% of Germany's yearly fuel production, and where I also calculated it would cost them much more fuel equivalent (260 million gallons per year equivalent vs one time expense of 15 million) to keep 3 million non-working Jews alive in the apparent undiscovered resettlement cities constructed in Russia in 42/43

Now that I've answered your questions, it's only fair that you answer mine.

Going by Metapedia, which I think is your main source here, only several thousand people died (btw the .3% they speak of here refers to intact corpses, not crematory contents, which is present to a much larger degree)

1637624149589.png


in regards to ash layers, we can say of total 20,000 cubic meters, reasonably 20% or 4000 cubic meters are termed crematory layers by Kola (grave 5 alone seems to contain 600-700 cubic meters)

Assuming 3000 of the total amount were cremated, this would yield maybe 6 cubic meters of pure ash. So the cremation layers Kola found were only .15% (6 parts of 4000) ash? Why would the Nazis dilute the ash to this extent or at all? It also seems senseless for them to pulverize the bones. I get it is conventional for crematories to do this (who are sending the remains to relatives) but why for 3,000 Jews in the middle of Poland? It's certainly not fun work without any dedicated equipment and then they dumped the ashes in the ground and diluted them lol. What is going on here??? And for the love of god why 20,000 cubic meters of grave space to accommodate this amount of ash? Maybe some trash and debris was dumped in there but according to Kola's descriptions most of the graves were pure graves, the majority exclusively crematory. This is comedy my friend.

And for reference (and because important to keep in mind Kola's descriptions of the graves) posting this again-- remember 29/33 graves contain crematory contents
Mass Graves Numbered 1-33 Are listed in the Order of Discovery

Grave Pit No. 1


The grave pit No. 1 was situated in the north-western part of the camp. It was in the shape of an irregular rectangle with the size of 40 meters by 12 meters and with a depth of 4.80 meters. The pit was filled with bodies in wax-fat, transformation; from the depth of about 2 meters burnt human bones and charcoal were mixed together. Such contents were already found at the depth of about 20-30 cm's from the surface. Burnt human bones and charcoal were also found samples drilled out in the area around the pit. Underground waters appeared at the depth of 4.10 meters. The estimated volume of the pit was about 1,500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 2

Located in the north-eastern part of the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 14 meters by 6 meters, with the depth of 2 meters. Crematory grave with the volume of about 170 meters.

Grave Pit No. 3

Located in the southern part of the camp. This was the first mass grave, the location of which was positively identified from a Luftwaffe aerial photograph taken in 1944. It appears as a T-shaped white patch and has the appearance of being the biggest grave in the camp. Dimensions of the grave were determined as 16 meters by 15 meters and a depth of over 5 meters. The grave contained a mixture of carbonised wood, fragments of burnt human bones, pieces of skulls with skin and tufts of hair still attached, lumps of greyish human fat, and fragments of unburned human bones. The bottom layer consisted of putrid wax-fat transformation. The volume of the pit was about 960 meters.

Grave Pit No.4

The pit was registered at the borderline in the southern part. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle and dimensions were determined as 16 meters by 6 meters. The drilling was suspended at the depth of 2.30 meters because of a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation. The volume of crematory part is about 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.5

Located in the south-western part of the camp. The grave had the shape of an irregular lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 32 meters by 10 meters, reaching a depth of over 4.5 meters. It was of a homogenous content. Studies of its crematory layers structure suggested multiple filling of the grave with burnt relics. The layer with the biggest thickness and intensity of crematory contents appeared in the lowest part of the pit and was about 1 meter thick; above 50 cm thick layer of soil, 4 following layers of crematory remains appeared, separated from each other with 20-30 cm layers of sand. The volume of the pit was about 1350 meters.

Grave Pit No. 6

This grave was located in the south-central part of the camp. It had the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 30 meters by 10 meters with a depth of 4 meters. The ashes were scattered around the grave, reaching the depth of 1 meter. The grave contained homogenous crematory contents. The volume of the pit was about 1200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 7

This grave was located in the north-central part of the camp, where one of the concrete pylons, commemorating the camps victims was erected during the 1960's was situated. The shape of the pit similar to a high trapezoid, with dimensions of 13 meters by 14 meters, and a height of about 27 meters, and the depth of 4.5 meters. The grave was homogenous with crematory ashes and sand. The lowest layer with the thickness of over 1.5 meters contained the most intensive traces of body ashes. The upper layer contained brick rubble and stones at the depth of 0.8 meters. The volume of the grave was about 1600 meters.

Grave Pit No. 8

This grave was located in the south-western part of the camp. The second pylon from the 1960's was erected over it. The general shape of the grave was in the shape of a lengthened rectangle, with the dimensions of 28 meters by 10 meters. Additional drilling revealed that 2 neighbouring graves existed, joined together as one, at a later date. The depth of the original grave was about 4 meters, and the bottom layer consisted of dense crematory remains. The fillings were covered with 20 -30 cm of sand, coming probably from the soil separating the graves. The ditch created that way, with the depth of 2 meters was filled with body ashes, charcoal and brick rubble. The volume of the pit amounted to about 850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 9

A relatively small grave with an irregular shape was located in the eastern part of the camp, between the pylon, and the present line of the camp enclosure. The pit was an irregular shape with the dimensions of 8 meters by 10 meters. The depth exceeded 3.80 meters. The contents of the pit were crematory remains and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 280 meters.

Grave Pit No. 10

One of the biggest graves located in the north-central part of the camp. It was rectangular in shape, with dimensions of 24 meters by 18 meters. The grave was very deep, over 5.20 meters, and the drills were stopped because of bodies in wax-fat transformation and underground waters. One drill at the depth of 4.40 meters revealed the appearance of several centimetres layer of white sand mixed with rich lime. Over body layers there were some levels of crematory remains, mixed with charcoal in turn with layers of sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 2100 meters.

Grave Pit No.11

This grave of relatively small volume was located in the north-eastern corner of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 9 meters by 5 meters with a depth of 1.90 meters. A small layer of crematory remains was found. At the depth of about 50 cm remains of musty wood was located. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 80 meters.

Grave Pit No.12

Located immediately to the north of grave pit 10, an L-shaped grave with the foot measuring 20 meters, with a depth that reached below 4 meters. The grave contained crematory in layers. In the separating layers charcoal and brick rubble was found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 13

Located towards the west of grave No. 12. One of the concrete ever-burning fires from the 1960's was placed over it. Dimensions of the grave which was trapezoid in shape, was determined as 12.50 meters by 11 meters and a height of 17 meters, with a depth reaching up to 4.80 meters. The grave contained body remains of mixed character. There was a layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation with a thickness of about 1 meter in the bottom part; directly over it there was a layer of sand and lime. Above there were layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The volume of the grave was estimated at 920 meters.

Grave Pit No. 14

The vast grave basin of an irregular shape was located in the western part of the fenced camp area. The grave's dimensions were 37 meters by 10 meters. The average depth of the grave was about 5 meters. The grave contained crematory remains, and the drills revealed pieces of glass and plastic. The graves volume was over 1850 meters.

Grave Pit No. 15

Located in the north-western part of the camp. This grave on its surface had the second concrete ever-burning fire from the 1960's. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle, and the dimensions were about 13.50 meters by 6.50 meters and reached the depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory remains. The estimated volume was about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No.16

Located in the north-western part of the camp, under the third existing concrete ever-burning fire. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 9.50 meters, with the depth of about 4 meters. In the bottom layers lime presence was found. The grave contained crematory ashes in layers with sand. The shallow drilling close to the grave confirmed the presence of burnt bones. The volume of the grave amounted to about 700 meters.

Grave Pit No. 17

Located east of grave No.16. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 17 meters by 7.50 meters with a depth up to 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. Burnt bones were also placed in layers with sand. A layer of rich lime was found in three drills at the depth of about 3 meters. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No.18

Located in the eastern part of the camp, to the east of the grave pit No. 15. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and charcoal. In the bottom part traces of lime were found. The volume of the grave amounted to about 570 meters.

Grave Pit No. 19

Located in the eastern part of the camp, directly under the first concrete fire. The ditch had the shape of a square with sides of about 12 meters. The depth of the grave was not more than 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes with a high density of human bones and charcoal. The volume of the grave amounted to about 500 meters.

Grave Pit No. 20

This grave was situated directly to the south of Grave Pit No.12 and its western part exceeded slightly the present enclosure of the camp. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 26 meters by 11 meters, with a depth of 5 meters. The grave contained layers of crematory remains and charcoal. The farthest western drill contained not only body ashes, but pieces of musty paper and wood, a piece of a nail and brick rubble. The volume of the grave amounted to about 1150 meters.

Grave Pit No. 21

Located centrally in the camp. This was a relatively small grave 5 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of 1.70 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes which were reported at a depth of 70 cm. The volume of the grave amounted to about 35 meters.

Grave Pit No. 22

Located in the eastern part of the camp, under the eastern end of the alley, running in front of the concrete pylons symbolising the graves, erected during the 1960's. The grave had a shape close to a flattened triangle with the base of about 9 meters and the height of 15 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 200 meters.

Grave Pit No. 23

Located in the central part of the camp. The grave was in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 16 meters by 8.50 meters, with a depth exceeding 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 550 meters.

Grave Pit No.24

Located in the southern part of the camp, just to the south of the fifth concrete ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 20 meters by 5.50 meters with the depth of about 5 meters. The grave contained irregular layers of crematory ashes and lime. The lowest layer of ashes with the thickness circa 60 cm was covered with about 40 cm thick layer of sand. Above that regular surface of body ashes and sand were reported. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 520 meters.

Grave Pit No.25

Located in the southern part of the camp under the alley, between the fifth and the sixth ever-burning fire. The dimensions of the grave was about 12 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 4 meters. The bottom of the grave contained 40 -50 cm layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with a layer of lime. Above that there was a layer with the thickness of about 60 -80 cm, covered with an 80 cm layer of sand. Over it was another intensive layer of burnt wood with a thickness of 80-100 cm covered with a surface bed of humus-like sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 250 meters.

Grave Pit No.26

Located in the south central part of the camp, under the alley close to the sixth ever-burning fire. The grave had the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 13 meters by 7 meters with a depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, with clear layers of ashes, charcoal and sand. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 320 meters.

Grave Pit No. 27

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 25. It was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 18.50 meters by 6 meters with a depth of about 5 meters. The bottom part of the grave consisted of nearly 1 meter thick layer of bodies in wax-fat transformation, above it there was a 20-25 cm thick layer of lime - over 2 meter thick intensive layer of charcoal with small amounts of crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 450 meters.

Grave Pit No.28

Located in the central part of the camp, towards the west of grave pit No. 27. Two clear layers of bodies in wax-fat transformation covered with lime were reported. Above them was found intensive structures of charcoal without body ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to 70 meters.

Grave Pit No. 29

Located in the central part of the camp. It was the shape of an irregular rectangle with the dimensions of about 25 meters by 9 meters with a depth of about 4.50 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 900 meters.

Grave Pit No.30

Located in the central part of the camp. The dimensions of the grave was 5 meters by 6 meters. The crematory remains were noted only from the depth of 2.70 meters. Above that a high density of charcoal was found. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 75 meters.

Grave Pit No. 31

A relatively small grave located to the north from grave pit No. 30. The grave was probably in the shape of a rectangle with the dimensions of 9 meters by 4 meters, with a depth of 2.60 meters. The grave contained crematory ashes, mixed with sandy soil. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 90 meters

Grave Pit No.32

Located in the north western corner of the presently enclosed area of the camp. The grave was the shape of a lengthened rectangle with the dimensions of 15 meters by 5 meters, with the depth of over 4 meters. The grave contained bodies in wax-fat transformation, covered with lime at the depth of about 3.60 meters. Above that there was a mixed structure of crematory ashes with charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 400 meters.

Grave Pit No. 33

A relatively small grave located in the north-western corner of the presently existing borderline of the camp, which went beyond the fence. The grave had dimensions of 9 meters by 5 meters, with a depth of about 3 meters. The grave contained the remains of crematory ashes and charcoal. The estimated volume of the grave amounted to about 120 meters.
 
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Rapechu

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Yes, the scan isn't so good. You can find the study at USHMM or other libraries https://collections.ushmm.org/search/catalog/bib74566
It doesn't appear to be available in English for free
Kola is a trained archeologist and was able to determine this. Is he flat out lying? This seems to be the best revisionist argument.
Can a trained archaeologist identify the composition of soil or ash from look alone? I don't think even trained chemists can do this.
They're not filled with random debris according to Kola's study. Yeah they didn't remove and cremate all the bodies, particularly the ones at the bottom that would have been more difficult to remove. They probably left a few thousand down there (out of 400,000)
It seems like there are literally entire buildings that were put in those pits.
Yes they were burnt out in the open just like at Dresden and Auschwitz (because Crematoria have trouble processing thousands and thousands of bodies every day).
So wouldn't the answer be, in a premeditated genocide, to have built much larger crematoria which could handle the capacity? Why would they rely on such primitive methods if this was all premeditated?
If you have concerns with the incredible amount of fuel being consumed for this, can you compare it to other uses of fuel by the Germans as seen here
View attachment 2743029

Or the analysis I did here where I calculated destroying 6 million bodies (a gross overestimate) would take about .5% of Germany's yearly fuel production, and where I also calculated it would cost them much more fuel equivalent (260 million gallons per year equivalent vs one time expense of 15 million) to keep 3 million non-working Jews alive in the apparent undiscovered resettlement cities constructed in Russia in 42/43

Now that I've answered your questions,
No, you actually didn't. See above. 0.5% of Germany's yearly fuel production is massive. And the question is a question of efficiency.

Why would the Germans intentionally under-develop their alleged death factory's most crucial facility?

it's only fair that you answer mine.

Going by Metapedia, which I think is your main source here, only several thousand people died (btw the .3% they speak of here refers to intact corpses, not crematory contents, which is present to a much larger degree)

View attachment 2742810

in regards to ash layers, we can say of total 20,000 cubic meters, reasonably at least 20% or 4000 cubic meters are termed crematory layers by Kola (grave 5 alone seems to contain 600-700 cubic meters)

Assuming 3000 were cremated, this would yield maybe 6 cubic meters of pure ash. So the cremation layers Kola found were only .15% (6 parts of 4000) ash? Why would the Nazis dilute the ash to this extent or at all?
What a crazy strawman. How much ash does a facility like this produce on a daily basis, just heating up barracks for warmth (EG. with wood burning stoves), cooking food, running power generators, etc.? Take the total lifetime ash production of the facility, and tell me where THOSE ashes went.
It also seems senseless for them to pulverize the bones. I get it is conventional for crematories to do this (who are sending the remains to relatives) but why for 5,000 Jews in the middle of Poland? They dumped the ashes in the ground and diluted them lol. What is going on??? And for the love of god do you need 20,000 cubic meters of grave space to accommodate this amount of ash? Maybe some trash and debris was dumped in there but according to Kola's descriptions most of the graves were pure graves, the majority exclusively crematory. This is comedy my friend.
Yes it is comedy. You have a supposed graveyard with no bones! Bones don't just disappear! Maybe the Germans sent all the skeletons east to spook the Russians with!
 

Chugger

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Yes it is comedy. You have a supposed graveyard with no bones! Bones don't just disappear! Maybe the Germans sent all the skeletons east to spook the Russians with!
The Germans cremated a few thousand Jews, then hand ground the bones into oblivion for fun (that's dirty business though), then massively diluted that ash in thousands of pounds of sand. Then dug massive swimming pool sized graves that they carefully layered this heavily diluted ash into (not "rubble", Kola specifies this). 29/33 graves contain crematory contents. Why did they dig so many graves and dilute the ash and spread it so phenomenally? For fun it seems, or perhaps they wanted to make it look like they'd been killing hundreds of thousands of people at sites that were widely reported as extermination centers in 1942. Silly Nazis.

And the denier's best arguments are-- nah the Nazis wouldn't have spent .5% of their fuel consumption destroying evidence of the single most heinous crime in human history. Rather they would have spent almost 20x as much (in equivalent energy cost) per year keeping millions of non-employable Jews alive in deep in the heart of Russia near to their armies supply lines.

Or the Nazs would have necessarily built massive crematories (probably much bigger than the 50 muffle crematoria complex at Auschwitz) in order to destroy these bodies, at pure extermination camps that would be dismantled after the Jews had been killed
 

Rapechu

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The Germans cremated a few thousand Jews, then hand ground the bones into oblivion for fun (that's dirty business though), then massively diluted that ash in thousands of pounds of sand. Then dug massive swimming pool sized graves that they carefully layered this heavily diluted ash into (not "rubble", Kola specifies this). 29/33 graves contain crematory contents. Why did they dig so many graves and dilute the ash and spread it so phenomenally? For fun it seems, or perhaps they wanted to make it look like they'd been killing hundreds of thousands of people at sites that were widely reported as extermination centers in 1942. Silly Nazis.

And the denier's best arguments are-- nah the Nazis wouldn't have spent .5% of their fuel consumption destroying evidence of the single most heinous crime in human history. Rather they would have spent almost 20x as much (in equivalent energy cost) per year keeping millions of non-employable Jews alive in deep in the heart of Russia near to their armies supply lines.

Or the Nazs would have necessarily built massive crematories (probably much bigger than the 50 muffle crematoria complex at Auschwitz) in order to destroy these bodies, at pure extermination camps that would be dismantled after the Jews had been killed
You went on a giant rant without addressing anything I said. I'm going to rate this post as Mad At The Internet and leave before I get sucked into another autism war.
 

Chugger

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I see here a 3000 square foot house (something like this) creates 305 cubic meters of debris

https://www.hometowndemolitioncontr...ny-dumpsters-does-it-take-to-demolish-a-house

w1024.jpg


so assuming Belzec the camp was about 10 of these (the gas chambers were 20 square meter each and there were 6 of them so 1300 square feet total) that would be enough to fit in the graves that Kola describes as containing "rubble", and would occupy about 15% of the total grave space detected
 

Chugger

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You went on a giant rant without addressing anything I said. I'm going to rate this post as Mad At The Internet and leave before I get sucked into another autism war.
Hey man, you did not address my questions about why the Germans dug 20,000 cubic meters worth of graves (see above for "rubble estimation") nor why they would grind up the bones nor why they would dilute the remains 1000 fold, nor layer them throughout 30 different swimming pool sized graves . . .
 

Chugger

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I will add this about Kola's core samples, they extract the sample from the ground using drills, so yes I would assume a competent archeologist could distinguish between wood ash/rubble/ and human remains (I believe you alluded to this). Unless he was maliciously lying--this is your only argument here lol (he's lying because mass extermination at these camps is impossible. It's just impossible.)

1637641436185.png
 

Rapechu

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Hey man, you did not address my questions about why the Germans dug 20,000 cubic meters worth of graves (see above for "rubble estimation") nor why they would grind up the bones
I am only giving you the benefit of the doubt that they ground up the bones. It works in your favor to believe this, because otherwise, the remains would be even more conspicuous and difficult to hide (and thus even more conspicuous in their absence). There are not enough skeletons discovered, or ground up bone dust remains, to match the claims you have made.
nor why they would dilute the remains 1000 fold,
That is your strawman, which I already addressed.

nor layer them throughout 30 different swimming pool sized graves . . .
Or garbage dumps. What happens to human waste? What happens to food waste? What happens to waste ash from heating/cooking/power generation?

You're just blatantly ignoring what I'm saying so I'll ignore what you're saying and post this instead:


Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. It's an old British tactic to make up crap about their enemies. We have plenty of letters from ww2 where the British discuss doing the exact same thing.

“We have had a good run for our money with this gas chamber story we have been putting about, but don’t we run the risk eventually we are going to be found out and when we are found out the collapse of that lie is going to bring the whole of our psychological warfare down with it?"
-Victor Cavendish-Bentick, Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, August 27, 1943
 

Chugger

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Or garbage dumps. What happens to human waste? What happens to food waste? What happens to waste ash from heating/cooking/power generation?
Did Kola find garbage, or fossilized turds, or "waste ash" in 29/33 swimming pool sized graves, err toilets? No, that would be "crematory" contents

Btw, why would one construct a toilet 15 feet deep 30 feet wide, 100 feet long? Keep the comedy coming bro
 
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Chugger

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What a crazy strawman. How much ash does a facility like this produce on a daily basis, just heating up barracks for warmth (EG. with wood burning stoves), cooking food, running power generators, etc.? Take the total lifetime ash production of the facility, and tell me where THOSE ashes went.
I'll be answering these questions more slowly at my leisure, mostly for comedy, so be patient

1637644216317.png


This canadian man's stove (active "24/7" ) generated 70 gallons per 12 months-- it seems like he's supplying his family for 6 cold winter months

now imagine this was consumption of 1000 people at Belzec over the roughly 1 year (on and off) it was operational

1637644816514.png


So hmm, enough to fill one of these swimming pool sized garbage holes about halfway, or 1.5% of total "hole" space

btw diesel generators would have likely been used at these camps
 
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Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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Sep 28, 2021
I'll be answering these questions more slowly at my leisure, mostly for comedy, so be patient

View attachment 2743762

This canadian man's stove (active "24/7" ) generated 70 gallons per year, since it seems like he's supplying his family for 6 months

now imagine this was consumption of 1000 people at Belzec over the roughly 1 year (on and off) it was operational

View attachment 2743777

So hmm, enough to fill one of these swimming pool sized garbage holes about halfway, or 1.5% of total "hole" space

btw diesel generators would have likely been used at these camps
Man, this post really is comedy

1. "A canadian man's stove" is just flat out silly.
2. The camp where 600,000 people lived and died had a capacity of 1000? Do you really expect me to believe this?

Semi related:
1. The pits were not preserved properly after the war and were regularly dug up by local Poles looking for treasure, this is widely known. Many of the pits were expanded by these digs, and sometimes smaller pits were linked together to seem as bigger pits.
2. The pits' contents were never seriously analyzed to determine their origin.
3. Rain causing the movement of soil; digger-related disturbances and the general nature of the earth naturally dilutes the contents. This is one reason why composition analysis is important.
 
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Bonesjones

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Jan 27, 2021
The study begins by admitting the place was a boarder camp by the Germans with mound walls and trenches. Did they dig that by hand or with heavy equipment? It later says one of them was demolished and used to cover the camp. Was that done by hand or heavy equipment?

The core samples were taken every 5 meters, which tells you only composition of your cores and not much else due to the lack of resolution in what you are inspecting. Most roads are less than 5 meters across. It also makes the range of the area you are searching up to interpretation. You could have a hole 5 by 5 meters or 9 by 9 meters. That's a difference in 56 square meters.

They suggest the graves are bowl shaped, is that an estimation or fact? Wouldn't it make sense to dig a giant trench so you could just push the earth back over the top? Why wouldn't the graves just be one long trench since that's the most efficient way of handling the labor? So again who dug the holes and who buried the dead?

There's not a lot of evidence in what this report shows that proves anything. You'd need an actual archeological survey to prove anything and that will never happen.

So there's no evidence proving anything except testimony and guesswork. Weird how that keeps cropping up.
 

Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 28, 2021
They probably were irregular in shape because they are known to have been dug up repeatedly by the locals and thus enlarged and diluted.

Also the pits contain blast furnace slag, which indicates that there was some sort of industry (probably armaments) in the camp, which ALSO produces waste ash.
 

Chugger

kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
“We have had a good run for our money with this gas chamber story we have been putting about, but don’t we run the risk eventually we are going to be found out and when we are found out the collapse of that lie is going to bring the whole of our psychological warfare down with it?"
-Victor Cavendish-Bentick, Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee, August 27, 1943

This is almost certainly a "fake quote", a good example of denier unintentional(??) dishonesty, and how their favored arguments in the end work against them, when given 5 minutes of proper investigation

I tracked down the origin of this quote to this exchange, posted by David Irving: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Cavendish/Bentinck.html

The quote in question appears to be a portmentau of the following two quotes

1637651492538.png


(so no British Plan to make up a holocaust story they know is a lie, but merely C B's distrust of wartime news coming out of Poland (which obviously was tough or impossible to verify due to German occupation of said country)

1637656834928.png


(The rumor he singles out here is about Poles being put to death in gas chambers, which was far less evidenced even in terms of rumors than killing of Jews, and needless to say post-war evidence)

Quite tellingly, right after this he says, "on the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour" uhhhhhhhhh

We can see why C B believed in a policy of killing non-employable Jews--he had access to intercepts of SS Police acts in Russia (killing children/wiping out whole villiages) and also one of the most interesting sources on Nazi criminality, the secret recordings of German POWs.

1637646850649.png


David Irving posts one here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDICb.html
 

Chugger

kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
Man, this post really is comedy

1. "A canadian man's stove" is just flat out silly.
2. The camp where 600,000 people lived and died had a capacity of 1000? Do you really expect me to believe this?
no 450,000 Jews did not live in this tiny ass camp, you're confusing it with your fairy tale resettlement cities

The camp wasn't big

see here aerial photo

800px-Belzec_aerial_photo_%281944%29.jpg


but still 400 by 800 meters. Doing drills every meter would require 320,000 drills, vs 12,800 every 5 meters, so we can see why he did it this way

(if deniers want more detail here maybe they should start a gofundme). Here is the map of graves he found

1637681962377.png


Again I remind you, out of 33 total graves surveyed 29 contained "crematory contents", with many 15 feet deep. Did the holes deepen by themselves?

If the Germans dug many small holes/graves that "linked" together, then you are left with a version of reality that has the Germans digging hundreds or perhaps thousands of tiny 15 foot deep graves, into which they meticulously pour layers of finely ground diluted ash (Kola's detected "crematory" layers),

And no, it doesn't seem reasonable these discrete ash layers were moved long distances across the camp lol

1637682126157.png


1637682166435.png


The reason for the bowl shape is that they originally were putting bodies in there (many unburnt) and wanted to seal the graves as soon as they could
 

Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 28, 2021
If you don't like the quote from the chief of intelligence, then try this one on for size:

"On February 29, 1944 the British Ministry of Information sent the following note to the higher British clergy and to the BBC.

Sir,
I am directed by the Ministry to send you the following circular letter:
It is often the duty of the good citizens and of the pious Christians to turn a blind eye on the peculiarities of those associated with us.
But the time comes when such peculiarities, while still denied in public, must be taken into accoust when action by us is called for.
We know the mathods of rule employed by the Bolshevik dictator in Russia itself from, for example, the writing and speeches of the Prime Minister himself during the last twenty years. We know how the Red Army behaved in Poland in 1920 and in Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Galicia and Bessarabia only recently.
We must, therefore, take into account how the Red Army will certainly behave when it overruns Central Europe. Unless precautions are taken, the obviously inevitable horrors which will result will throw an undue strain on public opinions in this country.
We cannot reform the Bolsheviks but we can do our best to save them-and ourselves- from the consequences of their acts. The disclosures of the past quarter of a century will render mere denials unconvincing. The only alternative to denial is to distract public attention from the whole subject.
Experience has shown that the best distraction is atrocity propaganda directed against the enemy. Unfortunately the public is no longer so susceptible as in the days of the "Corpse Factory," the "Mutilated Belgian Babies," and the "Crucified Canadians."
Your cooperation is therefore earnestly sought to distract public attention from the doings of the Red Army by your wholehearted support of various charges against the Germans and Japanese which have been and will be put into circulation by the Ministry.
Your expression of belief in such may convince others.
I am, Sir, Your obedient servant,
H. Hewet, Assistant Secretary
The ministry can enter into no correspondence of any kind with regard to this communication which should only be disclosed to responsible persons."
-Allied Wartime Diplomacy by Edward J Rozek

>Belzec was only a 1000 man camp
So basically you're saying, Belzec was a tiny ass camp that existed purely for executions and cremations, yet for reasons inexplicable had pits containing Blast Furnace Slag (a byproduct of steel and iron industry).

So the story doesn't line up. Did they import the Blast Furnace Slag? If they imported the slag (for whatever insane reason) then perhaps they also imported the ash and it was nothing but an industrial dumping ground.

More likely though, it was just a steelworking forced labor compound and nowhere near the number of people you're describing ever passed through it.
 

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