The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

Chugger

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If you don't like the quote from the chief of intelligence, then try this one on for size:



>Belzec was only a 1000 man camp
So basically you're saying, Belzec was a tiny ass camp that existed purely for executions and cremations, yet for reasons inexplicable had pits containing Blast Furnace Slag (a byproduct of steel and iron industry).

So the story doesn't line up. Did they import the Blast Furnace Slag? If they imported the slag (for whatever insane reason) then perhaps they also imported the ash and it was nothing but an industrial dumping ground.

More likely though, it was just a steelworking forced labor compound and nowhere near the number of people you're describing ever passed through it.
where's the blast furnace slag lol?

No, the evidence that hundreds of thousands were sent there is immense

eg, records of transports there from civilian sources like the department of Richard Turk, which were understandably kept in the dark about extermination efforts

1637684994475.png


All they knew was non-employable Jews were being sent there en masse (1000 per day). Tellingly they tried to figure out the "final outcome" of the deportation (the last quote) but could only come up with them being sent to a "collection camp" near Belzec

Deportation records allowed researchers to construct approximate totals of Jews sent there, which were later confirmed by discovery of Hoefle telegram which lists 430k arrivals by end of 1942

1637685181481.png


If you don't like the quote from the chief of intelligence, then try this one on for size:
As I mentioned in the post, the chief of intelligence in the same exchange said: "on the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"

and further referenced recordings like this (from here: http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDICb.html)


1637686420475.png


Your quote mentions nothing about "holocaust story" and why would 'Edward J Rozek', a Pole living in Britain (not in an intelligence agency or anything), be in any position to verify these wartime reports?
 

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Rapechu

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Here's another quote from Stafford Cripps, a member of the War Cabinet, on discovering the fact that the British was lying to its own public by producing fake propaganda broadcasts disguised as German broadcasts, intended to implicate Germany in war crimes:
…pale with indignation he raced around to the Foreign Office to see Anthony Eden and protest. "If this is the sort of thing that's needed to win the war," he stammered in his fury, "w-w-why I'd rather lose it!"
-Black Boomerang, by Sefton Delmer
British efforts to implicate Germany in frame-ups are extremely abundantly clear. I can continue producing quotes forever, from the horse's mouth even.


Here's an entire book on it.



Here's your blast furnace slag:


The dominant form of the monument occupies most of the large rectangular site centring on an oblique crevice or path that dissects the monumental burial ground. The path cuts through the gently rising surface of the cemetery, a black ash burial field, within which mass graves are marked as ghost-like territories with subtly differentiated grades of material (blast furnace slag mixed with cinders and barren soil). Defined at one end by the Square, a cast-iron relief set flush in the ground which marks the entrance to the burial ground, the path terminates in a monumental light-hued granite wall; a spatial sequence that engulfs visitors as they approach the wall, cutting through the burial field that rises to a dwarfing 9m height. Walking between concrete walls, cast against rough earth as shuttering and topped with buckling steel reinforcement bars, visitors disappear into the unknown in a symbolic journey that recalls the death of the thousands who were lost without trace. Passing thresholds that draw lines between life and death, most are reduced to silence before being confronted by the imposing granite screen wall. A structure that in its relief recalls the blood spilt and the familiar patina of bullet-peppered walls. Standing opposite this wall, polished concrete niches are covered with the names of victims. Names also frame the burial field as a low wall forms a horizontal stone frieze that chronologically lists Jewish communes recalling the sequence of transports.
 

Chugger

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Here's another quote from Stafford Cripps, a member of the War Cabinet, on discovering the fact that the British was lying to its own public by producing fake propaganda broadcasts disguised as German broadcasts, intended to implicate Germany in war crimes:
"…pale with indignation he raced around to the Foreign Office to see Anthony Eden and protest. "If this is the sort of thing that's needed to win the war," he stammered in his fury, "w-w-why I'd rather lose it!"
Hmm your quote seems to be leaving something out, I wonder if they're talking about manufacturing a genocide

1637707779212.png

Hmm.

British efforts to implicate Germany in frame-ups are extremely abundantly clear. I can continue producing quotes forever, from the horse's mouth even.
If you have any quotes relevant to the holocaust, I'd be interested to see them. So far you misquoted from an exchange in which a British intelligence chief has some doubts about reports coming out of Poland, but based on other information (which to this day is used as evidence) says:

"on the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"

Here's your blast furnace slag:
Where did this slag originate from? Does anyone claim it was excavated from the site?


1637707929850.png


I'll give you points for originality here, but you'd be better off doing some cursory research before you post
 

Rapechu

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"…pale with indignation he raced around to the Foreign Office to see Anthony Eden and protest. "If this is the sort of thing that's needed to win the war," he stammered in his fury, "w-w-why I'd rather lose it!"
Hmm your quote seems to be leaving something out, I wonder if they're talking about manufacturing a genocide

View attachment 2745492
Hmm.
That same radio station also falsely implicated German officers in war crimes. For example:

"Another GS1 programme attacked an SS man called Breuter who was in charge of children who had been evacuated from bombed German cities to Czechoslovakia. He was removed from his post after being found guilty in 67 cases of assaulting little girls."

They operated under the top secret Political Warfare Executive, which was a branch of the British government dedicated exclusively to inventing lies about Germany to demoralize them and their allies

So it's kind of interesting that you admit (or at least haven't attempted to deny) that the British invented lies about the Germans committing atrocities in WW1, and admit that they were consciously spreading lies in WW2, but then you simply deny that they would lie about the holocaust when they have already been caught lying about everything else. So I am expected to believe that there was a holocaust going on and the British still for some reason felt the need to lie and invent minor atrocities? Read between the lines.

If you have any quotes relevant to the holocaust, I'd be interested to see them. So far you misquoted from an exchange
I haven't misquoted anything, I'd appreciate it if you kept the invention of false narratives to a minimum.

The letter I cited is a direct quote and the source was listed as Public Record Office Document F0371/34551, cited by Stephen Mitford Goodson, in his book Inside the South African Reserve Bank. He was the director of the South African Reserve bank, which was South Africa's central bank, making him a a major political insider. This is cited on page 75 of the book, which also contains a footnote with corroborating sources.

in which a British intelligence chief has some doubts about reports coming out of Poland, but based on other information (which to this day is used as evidence) says:

"on the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"

Here is the full text of the letter you are citing:

VCB letter.png


"In my opinion it is incorrect to describe Polish information regarding German atrocities as "trustworthy". The Poles, and to a far greater extent the Jews, tend to exaggerate German atrocities in order to stoke us up. They seem to have succeeded. [...] I think that we weaken our case against the Germans by publicly giving credence to atrocity stories for which we have no evidence. These mass executions in gas chambers remind me of the stories of employment of human corpses during the last war for the manufacture of fat, which was a grotesque lie [...]"

Where did this slag originate from? Does anyone claim it was excavated from the site?


View attachment 2745499

I'll give you points for originality here, but you'd be better off doing some cursory research before you post
Ah, so you're telling me that, in order to contaminate the evidence """"preserve"""" the site, the original contents of which were never chemically analyzed, the archaeologists felt the best way was to bring in tons of foreign industrial waste and dump it on top of the graves?

Now I may not know much about archeology, but if I were an archaeologist, and I wanted to analyze a site to prove it is a mass cremated grave, this is how I wouldn't go about it:

1. dig into a place with heterogeneous contents which had already been previously disturbed
2. not analyze the contents in any way, only assume its origin and purity and the integrity of the grounds
3. immediately declare the site is a mass grave and close it down forever to any further inspections
4. dump massive amounts of foreign furnace waste material on top of it

They seem more concerned with turning the place into some sort of shrine which can never be scientifically analyzed (and they have actively complicated any future analyses), rather than actually performing any meaningful archaeology on the site.
 
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Marley Rathbone

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Here's another quote from Stafford Cripps, a member of the War Cabinet, on discovering the fact that the British was lying to its own public by producing fake propaganda broadcasts disguised as German broadcasts, intended to implicate Germany in war crimes:

British efforts to implicate Germany in frame-ups are extremely abundantly clear. I can continue producing quotes forever, from the horse's mouth even.


Here's an entire book on it.



Here's your blast furnace slag:


I'm sure this has been mentioned before but the entire propaganda effort in WWII is eerily similar to the propaganda effort against Trump supporters in America 2021, especially the Jan 6 hearings.
 

Rapechu

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I'm sure this has been mentioned before but the entire propaganda effort in WWII is eerily similar to the propaganda effort against Trump supporters in America 2021, especially the Jan 6 hearings.
Yes, we're seeing first hand how the MSM is spinning half-truths and whole lies in order to whip up hate mobs against white conservatives. They are doing quite a good job of it, even without an executive government branch to direct them. It's not hard to realize that if they're whipping up hatred against harmless children and boomers now, it would have only been even easier for them back then to whip up hatred against Germans, with a war going on and with greater government control over media.

After WW1, Kaiser Wilhelm wrote a giant essay about the effects of British propaganda on the war. If I recall correctly, he called it Britain's greatest weapon, and said it was the first time the world had ever seen such a well-organized apparatus for spreading falsehoods and giving them credence.
 

Chugger

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So it's kind of interesting that you admit (or at least haven't attempted to deny) that the British invented lies about the Germans committing atrocities in WW1, and admit that they were consciously spreading lies in WW2, but then you simply deny that they would lie about the holocaust when they have already been caught lying about everything else. So I am expected to believe that there was a holocaust going on and the British still for some reason felt the need to lie and invent minor atrocities? Read between the lines.
Just cuz the British would lie and have lied (just like most countries) doesn't preclude the Germans from committing atrocities. But do you have an instance of the British actually producing false holocaust evidence?

A good example of that might be the secret "tape recordings" that your star witness touts

1637646850649-png.2743842


Yet there's no evidence these are faked, or at least David Irving doesn't think so (he discovered them!), and your star witness validates them

The letter I cited is a direct quote and the source was listed as Public Record Office Document F0371/34551, cited by Stephen Mitford Goodson, in his book Inside the South African Reserve Bank. He was the director of the South African Reserve bank, which was South Africa's central bank, making him a a major political insider. This is cited on page 75 of the book, which also contains a footnote with corroborating sources.
1637730804195.png


He cites the David Irving dossier I put forward as the main source, which does not include that quote, but includes some very similarly phrased ones as I showed.

But what is document "FO371 34551"? Has it been cited in any other book, in the history of the world? Only in this one?

Wait I see the man himself, Stephen Mitford Goodson,, references it here: https://newsbitsandbites.com/pdf/Honest British Diplomats.pdf in an article that came out 3 years later

Yet though he mentions the document, the quote in question (a truly incriminating quote actually) is nowhere to be seen? What is going on?
---
So yet again I must come back to another quote from your star witness that you keep ignoring lol, which is funny because it means he actually believed in the Holocaust, even if he personally doubted the existence of gas chambers in 1943 when evidence for them was still relatively scant

and at last the promised quote

"on the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"


Ah, so you're telling me that, in order to contaminate the evidence """"preserve"""" the site, the original contents of which were never chemically analyzed, the archaeologists felt the best way was to bring in tons of foreign soil material and dump it on top of the graves?
I don't think this is how geology works lol. Slag or cinders are not gonna sink down and mix of their own accord. Kola found enormous ash layers separated by soil 50 years after the fact, and people will be able to find the same in probably another 50 years if they ever had reason to remove the monument
 
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Rapechu

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Just cuz the British would lie and have lied (just like most countries) doesn't preclude the Germans from committing atrocities. But do you have an instance of the British actually producing false holocaust evidence?

Yes.

756px-Buchenwald_Human_Remains_74066.jpg


Pic related. The human skin lampshade is perhaps the dumbest example of holocaust evidence ever put forward by the western allies.

A good example of that might be the secret "tape recordings" that your star witness touts

1637646850649-png.2743842


Yet there's no evidence these are faked, or at least David Irving doesn't think so (he discovered them!), and your star witness validates them


View attachment 2746539

He cites the David Irving dossier I put forward as the main source, which does not include that quote, but includes some very similarly phrased ones as I showed.

But what is document "FO371 34551"? Has it been cited in any other book, in the history of the world? Only in this one?

Wait I see the man himself, Stephen Mitford Goodson,, references it here: https://newsbitsandbites.com/pdf/Honest British Diplomats.pdf in an article that came out 3 years later

Yet though he mentions the document, the quote in question (a truly incriminating quote actually) is nowhere to be seen? What is going on?
---
So yet again I must come back to another quote from your star witness that you keep ignoring lol, which is funny because it means he actually believed in the Holocaust, even if he personally doubted the existence of gas chambers in 1943 when evidence for them was still relatively scant

and at last the promised quote

"on the other hand we do know that the Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"
Yet he also compares the gas chambers to the ww1 era corpse factory myth, which he calls a grotesque lie, so he clearly does not believe that this is a planned genocide, only acts of petty and sporadic violence. He said that in fact it hurts British credibility to be spreading such ideas because of how flimsy and easily disproven they are.

In the Honest British Diplomats paper, VCB is also cited with several other letters where he confirms the same sentiment, that he feels the gas chamber story will weaken British credibility.

This of course is no longer an issue when the Germans are occupied, as they are no longer able to defend themselves from accusations.

I don't think this is how geology works lol. Slag or cinders are not gonna sink down and mix of their own accord. Kola found enormous ash layers separated by soil 50 years after the fact, and people will be able to find the same in probably another 50 years if they ever had reason to remove the monument
Since the crux of the matter is the origin of the ashes, dumping foreign furnace waste into the area now creates a hazard for contamination.

Wildcat digs HAVE occurred (in fact the site was first dug up by soviets upon initially being occupied, which is sus as hell in itself). Wildcat diggers can contaminate the lower layers by mixing them together with the top.

Elements can seep down into the soil after rain.

If anyone does do a serious analysis and finds industrial waste products in the lower level, it can simply be claimed to be due to contamination. This renders any hypothesis about the origin of the ashes unfalsifiable.
 

Chugger

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Pic related. The human skin lampshade is perhaps the dumbest example of holocaust evidence ever put forward by the western allies.
How is it Holocaust evidence? Lampshades were mentioned a few times during Nuremberg, never in direct connection with Jews, nor in connection with any systematic murder of Jews (which is the the definition of the Holocaust)


Yet he also compares the gas chambers to the ww1 era corpse factory myth, which he calls a grotesque lie, so he clearly does not believe that this is a planned genocide, only acts of petty and sporadic violence. He said that in fact it hurts British credibility to be spreading such ideas because of how flimsy and easily disproven they are.
Nah bro. He never said they were "easily disproven" just that that there was no good evidence at the moment. From the same file:


1637765533397.png


The fact Allen and Cavendish were skeptical here (perhaps 'judeo-skeptical' lol) throws the following statement into stronger relief. BTW right before he's not talking about Jews, but crimes committed against Poles

1637765758190.png


"The Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"

Please explain how this is not Holocaust to me.

------------
Since the crux of the matter is the origin of the ashes, dumping foreign furnace waste into the area now creates a hazard for contamination.
Are you saying the "artists" put this over the Belzec site?

stream-of-molten-slag-royalty-free-image-1586346519.jpg


rather than this?

Dry-Granulation-of-Blast-Furnace-Slag.gif


Wildcat digs HAVE occurred (in fact the site was first dug up by soviets upon initially being occupied, which is sus as hell in itself). Wildcat diggers can contaminate the lower layers by mixing them together with the top.
What are wildcat diggers? I've heard mention of this before

1637766297906.png
 
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Bad Gateway

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DIDNT READ YOU'RE ALL RETARDS OBSESSED WITH YOUR GRANDPA'S BROKEN COCK
 

Rapechu

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How is it Holocaust evidence? Lampshades were mentioned a few times during Nuremberg, never in direct connection with Jews, nor in connection with any systematic murder of Jews (which is the the definition of the Holocaust)


These items were literally presented as evidence of German inhumanity at Nuremberg, this is intended to color the public's perceptions of the Germans. The lampshade and other items are blatantly false, and one can tell at a glance, because human skin is not nearly as thick or opaque as cow skin, and would be translucent in sunlight. So this is clearly forged evidence which was used to hang innocent people. Even pro-holocaust, jewish sites now attest that the lampshades are an embarrassing myth.

So the western allies just couldn't resist throwing in more corpse factory myths into a legitimate genocide? Honestly, if you have a legitimate genocide on your hand, I don't see why one would destroy their own credibility by adding additional, planted evidence; but I can see how early, clumsy attempts at frame-ups would fail and become inconvenient later on.

The whole history of the holocaust seems to be this, with grand sweeping claims ("all camps are death camps", "4 million died at Auschwitz") which slowly get beaten back and abandoned one by one as they are revealed to be indefensible, and the holocaust proponents realize that they are only losing credibility trying to defend the more blatantly false ideas.

Nah bro. He never said they were "easily disproven" just that that there was no good evidence at the moment. From the same file:


View attachment 2747564

The fact Allen and Cavendish were skeptical here (perhaps 'judeo-skeptical' lol) throws the following statement into stronger relief. BTW right before he's not talking about Jews, but crimes committed against Poles

They are discussing both Poles and Jews in this, and VCB specifically said that the jews exaggerated German crimes even far more than the Poles did. If the Poles are talking about gassings, and VCB says that's ridiculous, then this implies the jewish claims are even MORE untrustworthy. He's one of the chiefs of the British war cabinet, he would be the person with the best perspective on any of these claims, because the best evidence of anything with propaganda value would all be filtered to him.

View attachment 2747570

"The Germans are out to destroy Jews of any age unless they are fit for manual labour"

Please explain how this is not Holocaust to me.
He doesn't talk about the Germans killing the jews in a systematic manner, and in fact compares that to a grotesque lie and implies it to be a jewish exaggeration.

He basically says in that letter "don't take at face value what the Poles and jews say, it is mostly made up, and it'll hurt our psyops efforts to publicly support them. There's no reason to believe in any genocide against Poles. The Germans do have it out for the jews, but jews are not being mass executed. If we support that claim, then when it is debunked, it will make it harder to prosecute Germans for legitimate massacres."

In this line you keep quoting, he is not saying here anything other than that the Germans had a hostile outlook towards the jews, but not that it was being acted on systematically. "out to destroy" is juxtaposed in this letter to "mass executions in gas chambers".

Are you saying the "artists" put this over the Belzec site?

stream-of-molten-slag-royalty-free-image-1586346519.jpg


rather than this?

Dry-Granulation-of-Blast-Furnace-Slag.gif
They put both blast furnace slag and furnace cinders over the graves, along with other types of foreign soils.

The fact that this is a site where all the evidence is from ovens, and they introduced elements from a different type of oven, is completely irresponsible and contaminating. There are chemicals found in industrial waste that were added to the site, which wouldn't be found in corpse cremation. This complicates further research, and can only be assumed to have been done deliberately because of how badly it muddies future examinations (which are clearly never intended to be allowed).

What are wildcat diggers? I've heard mention of this before

View attachment 2747578

Wildcat dig = illegal/unauthorized diggers

Ever since the Germans abandoned the site, it has been tampered with by random people digging at it. After Belzec was occupied by the Soviets, the soviets also quickly dug up the site, allegedly because they heard it was a mass grave and were searching for treasure, though they could have had ulterior motives. After that, for many years, treasure hunters would come, having heard it was a mass grave, to also dig it up.

So the site has been heavily compromised before any archaeologists ever examined it. There are even pro-holocaust sites which attest to this. This means that (even without malicious intent by the soviets) ash layers would be mixed with soil and further diluted (expanding their apparent volume), the boundaries of pits would be expanded, giving them the impression of being much larger than they actually are, or outright linking distinct pits together (thus greatly expanding their apparent volume and confusing their contents), foreign materials could be added, the contents of the pits could be cross-contaminated when the pits are filled back in, etc.

So there are numerous complicating factors already in any archaeology on the site, even before it was turned into a shrine and had even more complicating factors thrown in with the introduction of more foreign mass.
 

Chugger

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@Rapechu

It might be helpful for us to first to look at the kind of report of mass gassing that was reaching the British during 42/43

Since we're talking about Belzec let's examine this report from the Polish underground (Armia Krajowa, filed April 1942)

1637797102617.png


To sum up, they saw lots of Jews entering the camp, none leaving, and the camp was clearly too small to hold the thousands of Jews arriving there (1500 x 52 so 78,000 people in less than a month) + bodies being brought to large graves so they figured it was an extermination center. Though obviously they were observing from a distance so could not have much certainty about the manner of death other than it was happening in a building.

Reasonable so far?
 
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Rapechu

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@Rapechu

It might be helpful for us to first to look at the kind of report of mass gassing that was reaching the British during 42/43

Since we're talking about Belzec let's examine this report from the Polish underground (Armia Krajowa, filed April 1942)

View attachment 2748935

To sum up, they saw lots of Jews entering the camp, none leaving, and the camp was clearly too small to hold the thousands of Jews arriving there (1500 x 52 so 78,000 people in less than a month) + bodies being brought to large graves so they figured it was an extermination center. Though obviously they were observing from a distance so could not have much certainty about the manner of death other than it was happening in a building.

Reasonable so far?
No, this is absolutely absurd. The camp's entire staff (including officers) was attested to be 52 men? Did I read that right? And they executed trainloads of 1500 people at a time (sometimes more), totalling 600,000 jews? And annihilated and buried the bodies?

How the hell can 52 men execute annihilate and bury 1500 people in less than a day?

This is absolutely insane. I see now why VCB was so adamant not to support these claims.
 
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Bonesjones

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Some guy said it, it has to be true! No one would ever lie about something so true. It's why they don't need facts or science to prove it.
 

Chugger

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No, this is absolutely absurd. The camp's entire staff (including officers) was attested to be 52 men? Did I read that right? And they executed trainloads of 1500 people at a time (sometimes more), totalling 600,000 jews? And annihilated and buried the bodies?

How the hell can 52 men execute 1500?

This is absolutely insane.

Well you do know they had other prisoners + of course Jewish prisoners (hundreds) helping them

The thing that strikes me here though is 52 men is close to the contemporaneous estimate made by Richard Turk, the nearby civilian authority helping with deportation, while speaking of the "entirely closed off" collection camp near Belzec. I actually just quoted this earlier

1637817895541.png
 
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Neo-Holstien

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A reupload of Ryan Faulks video about the accusations levied against the germans. It really is ridiculous what HoloHoax pushers expect us to believe
 
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>Greater Germanic Reich systematically kills 6 million Jews and a few additional million Slavs
>Fascism in any form is considered irreprehensibly evil and completely irredeemable- Adolf Hitler considered to be the worst Human Being to ever live

>Soviet Union systematically kills 12-20 million Christians and a few additional million Muslims, Non-Atheistic Jews, Buddhists, and Pagan Siberians
>Communism is considered a legitimate ideology to this day- Marx considered by many to a a visionary on par with John Locke or Thomas Jefferson

It's all so tiresome after a while
 

Rapechu

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Well you do know they had other prisoners + of course Jewish prisoners (hundreds) helping them

The thing that strikes me here though is 52 men is close to the contemporaneous estimate made by Richard Turk, the nearby civilian authority helping with deportation, while speaking of the "entirely closed off" collection camp near Belzec. I actually just quoted this earlier

View attachment 2749773
I am sorry, but I simply cannot believe that 52 men killed, cremated and buried 600,000 jews; that one of the largest genocides in history was carried out by a junior officer (hauptman = captain). Even with jewish prisoners to help them, these prisoners weren't sympathizers with their guards were they? They would have escaped or fought back if they could, right?

You also said that the bodies were primarily burnt out in the open with gasoline. This would be VERY conspicuous, to anyone observing. But the Polish report makes no mention of that.

According to your post there was usually 2 trainloads A DAY. It would be nearly impossible to maintain order with that many people arriving. So a train arrives, as soon as people disembark, they see giant corpse fires, the helper-jews scream "they're going to kill you!" and then everyone runs for the treelines, and 52 guards with SMGs can't possibly shoot even half of them. Or hell, maybe the mob decides to rush the guards and grab their guns.

Or maybe they just walk to the death chamber. You are left with the collossal task of destroying 1500 bodies in just a few hours before the next train arrives.

It cannot be done.
 

TheTrumanShow

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Who cares? It's not like the nazi's didn't want to get rid of the Jews everywhere and anywhere they encountered them. I find it ridiculous that it's mostly nazi's and their fellow travellers that hold revisionist views. Like they have a hard time dealing with what their own depravity would lead to, whether it was organized or not.
 

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