The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

Chugger

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Remember the British and USA were forced to admit that there were zero death camps on their side of the Iron Curtain, so if the Soviets say it didn't happen then the only people who did were the Germans at gun point. Mixed messaging you've got there. You exonerated the Soviets because you refuse to hold them to the same standards as the Germans.
Lol I have no bone to pick with "the Germans". Post-war, even the Nazis who publicly "denied" or doubted mass extermination never gave credence to the existence of secret resettlement of a small country equivalent of Jews in Russia. It's you guys that do that.
 

Chugger

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If 53 people can kill, cremate, grind down, and bury 600,000 jews in Belzec, then it only takes 530 people to kill 6 million jews, that's about the size of a battalion. So maybe the holocaust happened when a German batallion went rogue and killed everyone.

-This is actually plausible according to Chugger

Where did I claim 53 people did all this work? You already asked me this lol
 
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Bonesjones

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What are you talking about? No one has ever presented evidence for resettlement of a small country worth of Jews in USSR, whether credible or not.
Hey look more lies. We went over that weeks ago. Remember the Jewish Autonomous Region in Siberia? You just want to deny it because we don't have 6 million itineraries saying when and where people went.


You also admit to reading codoh but I guess you missed this or saw it and ignored it.
 
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Chugger

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Hey look more lies. We went over that weeks ago. Remember the Jewish Autonomous Region in Siberia? You just want to deny it because we don't have 6 million itineraries saying when and where people went.
There's no evidence of the Germans shipping Jews en masse over front lines into Soviet held territory so yeah the 40k Jews that settled here (many after the war) are irrelevant

1638140263433.png




You also admit to reading codoh but I guess you missed this or saw it and ignored it.

I posted that lol. I'm gl0spana.

So I hope you agree it is pretty obvious that if these studies were honestly conducted, mass amounts of remains are overwhelmingly indicated and the orthodox narrative corroborated. The question is are they honest studies? That's what I can't prove. Naturally those in charge of these digs could have been paid off or otherwise under the influence of various powers.
 

Rapechu

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You're still arguing this thing that we already went over in the other thread. You even admitted that it was a complete black hole of information, that nobody can prove massacres or resettlements, because all the trails vanish. I proposed multiple solutions: the German records were inaccurate or misleading, the Soviets destroyed the records, the jews were attached to the military and treated as foreign labor, etc. You have only one explanation: that the Germans had massive SECRET cremation facilities which they used to dig up and burn millions of bodies as they were retreating from the soviets, which nobody has ever found.

So trying to bring this idea up again is frankly stupid.
 

Chugger

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You're still arguing this thing that we already went over in the other thread. You even admitted that it was a complete black hole of information, that nobody can prove massacres or resettlements, because all the trails vanish.
People can prove massacres--at least if we're to believe the thousands of SS police shooting documents, British intercepts and secret recordings (like the ones Cavendish-Bentinck touts), various reports and pictures of mass graves and actual shootings, oh not to mention witnesses.

An interesting site which shows shooting locations as well as thousands of video interviews with locals talking about massacres (of women and children) that they witnessed

1638208211023.png


Smaller sites were most definitely not taken care of by group 1005 (which dealt with only large locations like Babi Yar). Bodies are still down there and keep being found 80 years later

Yad Vashem has listings of mass graves found in USSR (eg Minsk area), with GPS locations. You could go digging if you want.

Against this you put:
I proposed multiple solutions: the German records were inaccurate or misleading, the Soviets destroyed the records,
First off the Soviets destroying virtually all of the records is improbable because they weren't even able to purge records of Katyn massacre from their archive. CIA wasn't able to purge records of MKUltra. It's a lot easier to find a document or two than destroy all of them. In any case, US/Britain must have been on document destruction too because they also located millions of documents, within which should have been mentioned something about the resettlement of millions of Jews somewhere in Russia
the jews were attached to the military and treated as foreign labor, etc.
There should be record of this as well, no? Regardless, Jews were divided into two groups, employable and non-employable. Employable were brought into the German labor pool (there is record of a few hundred thousand in Reich territory and much less in Occupied USSR) and non-employable sent to camps like Belzec or otherwise "deported"

A major problem you have not touched on is complete lack of German witnesses speaking about resettlement. Millions of Jews being resettled in internment camps in the East (whether attached to the military or otherwise) would have attracted a lot of attention, probably tens of thousands of direct witnesses and hundreds of thousands who would hear about it indirectly.

Yet nobody has spoken up, why?

One could say Holocaust denial laws (which didn't come into effect until 1985), but even accepting that, resettlement of Jews does not preclude genocide happening elsewhere. Jews were resettled in the camp ghetto Theresienstadt and no one has a problem talking about it.

So how would the hundreds of thousands of these direct and indirect German witnesses know not breathe a word about mass resettlement, or by what power were they compelled not to do so? The same applies to millions of "Russian" and Jewish witnesses.

You have only one explanation: that the Germans had massive SECRET cremation facilities which they used to dig up and burn millions of bodies as they were retreating from the soviets, which nobody has ever found.

Not secret cremation facilities. Everybody nearby knew what they were doing (at the very least was evident from smell and smoke). That's why Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor were widely identified as extermination facilities in 1942--and I've shown a few of the reports coming out at the time on Belzec, from Polish Underground and Swedish consulate
1638211576906.png


People didn't find the bodies at these camps, but they did find tons of cremains (with bones either removed or destroyed) signifying mass destruction.

So trying to bring this idea up again is frankly stupid.
Sorry bro, I'm not the one alleging a conspiracy involving millions with (again) no evidence to show for it
 
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Chugger

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So you admit settlement did happen and they can't find the bones of people at these execution sites in the quantity required for proof? I'd say we're done here then.
lol watchu talkin bout Willis, Theresienstadt was a camp in Czechoslovakia and this is about the millions of Jews the Nazis apparently sent into Russia.

If the graves at extermination camps had been opened and found to contain hundreds of thousands of skulls etc, that would contradict all known witness statements, which say the bodies were destroyed.
 
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Rapechu

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People can prove massacres--at least if we're to believe the thousands of SS police shooting documents, British intercepts and secret recordings (like the ones Cavendish-Bentinck touts), various reports and pictures of mass graves and actual shootings, oh not to mention witnesses.

An interesting site which shows shooting locations as well as thousands of video interviews with locals talking about massacres (of women and children) that they witnessed

View attachment 2760105
You are talking about two completely different things here. One, is the police actions, which were specifically marked as police actions in the reports you yourself have provided in the other thread. The other is "Holocaust(TM) as a planned genocide" which you have failed to provide proper evidence for.

Smaller sites were most definitely not taken care of by group 1005 (which dealt with only large locations like Babi Yar). Bodies are still down there and keep being found 80 years later

Yad Vashem has listings of mass graves found in USSR (eg Minsk area), with GPS locations. You could go digging if you want.
We've already been through this and now you're just playing dumb. I provided criteria which are necessary to prove the holocaust as a planned genocide, and you hadn't yet provided it. go look at my past posts if you can't remember what those are.

Against this you put:

First off the Soviets destroying virtually all of the records is improbable because they weren't even able to purge records of Katyn massacre from their archive. CIA wasn't able to purge records of MKUltra. It's a lot easier to find a document or two than destroy all of them. In any case, US/Britain must have been on document destruction too because they also located millions of documents, within which should have been mentioned something about the resettlement of millions of Jews somewhere in Russia

There should be record of this as well, no? Regardless, Jews were divided into two groups, employable and non-employable. Employable were brought into the German labor pool (there is record of a few hundred thousand in Reich territory and much less in Occupied USSR) and non-employable sent to camps like Belzec or otherwise "deported"
So where are the German records ordering the genocide of all jews then, signed by top-ranking NSDAP officials? It's impossible to destroy all the records right? Or does that only go one way, when you are pushing a narrative? Post one document ordering the genocide of all jews, without any of this coded language bullcrap, in plain English, signed by Hitler or Himmler or someone of significant status.

Even this "coded document" thing is utterly ridiculous if you look at it under any scrutiny, as we have documents showing, in plain language, police actions which are clearly war crimes, and yet you still claim that the same documents which show resettlements, are somehow codeword for the same thing? We went over this in the other thread. This is just tedious. You're going to keep travelling in circles forever, aren't you?

Not to mention the sheer absurdity of trying to kill every jew in Europe while keeping it a secret. At that point, what is even the purpose of trying to hide it? Surely someone would notice all the jews had gone mysteriously missing.

A major problem you have not touched on is complete lack of German witnesses speaking about resettlement. Millions of Jews being resettled in internment camps in the East (whether attached to the military or otherwise) would have attracted a lot of attention, probably tens of thousands of direct witnesses and hundreds of thousands who would hear about it indirectly.

Yet nobody has spoken up, why?
You're asking why nobody in the SOVIET UNION OCCUPIED TERRITORIES didn't challenge the government and get thrown into a gulag?

Gee, I wonder why.

>Hurr durr but what about the west
West Germany was not a free country, it was an occupied member of NATO, an organization whose explicitly stated purpose is quoted as "to keep the Germans down". If anyone spoke up against it today, they will, at best, get extradited to Israel and persecuted, and most of the people involved are dead now anyways. Plenty of old men insisted to their deathbed that the holocaust never happened (for example, Dr. Mengele wrote memoirs describing what happened at Auschwitz, these are kept hidden from the public by the holocaust museum that is keeping them), but most of these people knew better than to talk about it in public because of the ramifications on them and their families.

One could say Holocaust denial laws (which didn't come into effect until 1985), but even accepting that, resettlement of Jews does not preclude genocide happening elsewhere. Jews were resettled in the camp ghetto Theresienstadt and no one has a problem talking about it.

So how would the hundreds of thousands of these direct and indirect German witnesses know not breathe a word about mass resettlement, or by what power were they compelled not to do so? The same applies to millions of "Russian" and Jewish witnesses.
I had already stated, with plenty of documentary evidence, that there were nowhere near the amount of people transported as claimed in the documentation. Frankly, it is absurd that the Germans would use up valuable rail cars (during a logistics bottleneck in Poland) to transport jews east just to... drive them to the middle of the woods and shoot them? You know that there are woods in Germany and Poland too, right? It's even more ridiculous that you are acting like this is a certainty when you couldn't show me a single one of these "resettlement sites" which were allegedly killing zones.

Not secret cremation facilities. Everybody nearby knew what they were doing (at the very least was evident from smell and smoke). That's why Belzec, Treblinka, and Sobibor were widely identified as extermination facilities in 1942--and I've shown a few of the reports coming out at the time on Belzec, from Polish Underground and Swedish consulate
View attachment 2760202
Yes, from the same organization that the British chief I JUST QUOTED IN THIS THREAD, said was making up stories for the sake of propaganda.

People didn't find the bodies at these camps, but they did find tons of cremains (with bones either removed or destroyed) signifying mass destruction.
What's with all these "mass graves" with no bones? This whole thing is fucking stupid. 60 men can't kill 600,000 and steal all the bones.

Is the holocaust a hoax? No bones about it.

Sorry bro, I'm not the one alleging a conspiracy involving millions with (again) no evidence to show for it
Dying laughing at the irony in this post.
 
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Chugger

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You're asking why nobody in the SOVIET UNION OCCUPIED TERRITORIES didn't challenge the government and get thrown into a gulag?

Gee, I wonder why.

>Hurr durr but what about the west
West Germany was not a free country, it was an occupied member of NATO, an organization whose explicitly stated purpose is quoted as "to keep the Germans down". If anyone spoke up against it, they will, at best, get extradited to Israel and persecuted, and most of the people involved are dead now anyways

As I said, even assuming this all was true (USSR folded in 1990 when witnesses to ww2 would be in their 60s and 70s) it is irrelevant because talking about some Jews getting resettled in Russia is not Holocaust denial. Just as Jewish families were sent to Theresienstadt, they could have been sent to live somewhere else. But there's 0 evidence of this happening in Russia.

As Cockerill says this total lack of evidence is a humiliation for deniers


and makes an absolute mockery of the high burden of proof they've set for the Holocaust

eg this one report I'll post again, which I'd say constitutes about .000001% of the case for the Holocaust, is still infinitely more evidence than what revisionists put forward for a small country's worth of Jews being resettled in Russia in 42/43. And it is also infinitely more evidence than the proposed conspiracy to cover up resettlement, which would necessarily involve the many millions of witnesses to this thing.

1637797102617-png.2748935
 
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Bonesjones

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As I said, even assuming this all was true (USSR folded in 1990 when witnesses to ww2 would be in their 60s and 70s) it is irrelevant because talking about some Jews getting resettled in Russia is not Holocaust denial. Just as Jewish families were sent to Theresienstadt, they could have been sent to live somewhere else. But there's 0 evidence of this happening in Russia.

As Cockerill says this total lack of evidence is a humiliation for deniers


and makes an absolute mockery of the high burden of proof they've set for the Holocaust

eg this one report I'll repost now, which I'd say constitutes about .000001% of the case for the Holocaust, is still infinitely more evidence than what revisionists put forward for a small country's worth of Jews being resettled in Russia in 42/43. And it is also infinitely more evidence than the proposed conspiracy to cover up resettlement, which would necessarily involve the many millions of witnesses to this thing.

1637797102617-png.2748935
Without the corresponding physical evidence which doesn't exist, eyewitness testimony matters less than nothing. You are raving about how millions of Bigfoots have been murdered without proving Bigfoot exists in the first place.
 

Rapechu

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Without the corresponding physical evidence which doesn't exist, eyewitness testimony matters less than nothing. You are raving about how millions of Bigfoots have been murdered without proving Bigfoot exists in the first place.
This.

I already posted in the other thread (can't be arsed to look it up and repost it, go through my post history if you want it) the report where an entire region (Crimea if I recall) was completely emptied of jews, but a casual inspection showed large jewish communities still there in major towns, operating openly, with active synagogues and jewish markets, and completely unaware of any sort of danger.

So here's one hypothesis for what happened to the resettled people: they were marked down as resettled but stayed exactly where they were. It was common enough for the wehrmacht to lie to the NSDAP, and pursue their own objectives instead of whatever directives the party put forth, if they felt they weren't worthwhile.

Also, lmao at bullet 11.

"The jews offered to pay people to testify that jews were being killed there but couldn't find anyone".

Hmmmmm
 

Chugger

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I already posted in the other thread (can't be arsed to look it up and repost it, go through my post history if you want it) the report where an entire region (Crimea if I recall) was completely emptied of jews, but a casual inspection showed large jewish communities still there in major towns, operating openly, with active synagogues and jewish markets, and completely unaware of any sort of danger.
You produced no such report, just some quote from metapedia

But you might be talking about something like Operational Situation Report USSR No. 153, January 9, 1942

1638368104214.png


None of this stuff helps you though, because even if these reports are completely inaccurate they still indicate desire on the part of leadership for SS police to kill all Jews. Germans stayed in Crimea til 1944, so they had more than 2 years to accomplish what they perhaps weren't able to in the first 2 months of occupation.

So here's one hypothesis for what happened to the resettled people: they were marked down as resettled but stayed exactly where they were. It was common enough for the wehrmacht to lie to the NSDAP, and pursue their own objectives instead of whatever directives the party put forth, if they felt they weren't worthwhile.

You discovered there was no evidence of resettlement so you proposed a conspiracy by the victors to cover it up.

But then you saw there was also no evidence of that, so now you propose another conspiracy (this time by the Germans!?) to make it seem like resettlement was happening even though it really wasn't? eg train records showing hundreds of thousands going to Belzec/Sobibor/Treblinka were faked? Ghetto censuses showing drastically less Jews also faked?

from Korherr's report:

1638369179974.png


"The jews offered to pay people to testify that jews were being killed there but couldn't find anyone".

Hmmmmm
By "testifying" publicly they would have opened themselves up to German punishment

yet Armia Krajowa makes clear a major source for their info: " The observations of the local population (the camp is within sight and hearing distance of the inhabitants near the railway station) led all of them to one conclusion: that there is a mass murder of the Jews inside the camp. The following facts testify to this:"
 

JohnDoe

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None of this stuff helps you though, because even if these reports are completely inaccurate they still indicate desire on the part of leadership for SS police to kill all Jews.

Pull a random person from anywhere in Europe circa 1930's and ask them, "Bruh should we kill all the Jews?" 90% of the time, at least, you'll then hear one of the following; Sí, Ja. Da, Tak, Jah, Ano, Oui. Kyllä, Taip, Igen, or Yes. Maybe even some enthusiastic gestures!

Congratulations, antisemitism existed in the 1930s. What does that prove?
 

Lemmingwise

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Pull a random person from anywhere in Europe circa 1930's and ask them, "Bruh should we kill all the Jews?" 90% of the time, at least, you'll then hear one of the following; Sí, Ja. Da, Tak, Jah, Ano, Oui. Kyllä, Taip, Igen, or Yes. Maybe even some enthusiastic gestures!

Congratulations, antisemitism existed in the 1930s. What does that prove?
An exaggeration. If people frequently said yes it would have happened a lot more.
 

JohnDoe

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An exaggeration. If people frequently said yes it would have happened a lot more.
You need means and opportunity, otherwise the motive is meaningless. I say all the time I'd like to bang [attractive actor], that doesn't mean I'm knocking boots with him every other week.
We have yet to see either of the other two factors presented, merely unsubstantiated assertions of sci-fi corpse disposal machines or magical tankers of infinite oil.
 

Rapechu

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You produced no such report, just some quote from metapedia

But you might be talking about something like Operational Situation Report USSR No. 153, January 9, 1942

View attachment 2765268

None of this stuff helps you though, because even if these reports are completely inaccurate they still indicate desire on the part of leadership for SS police to kill all Jews. Germans stayed in Crimea til 1944, so they had more than 2 years to accomplish what they perhaps weren't able to in the first 2 months of occupation.
VON MANSTEIN: When I took over the army, which, as I said, was on the day I left Nikolaiev for my battle headquarters, it was said, without details being given, that earlier, before my time, the SS had allegedly shot and killed a few Jews, I believe it was in Bessarabia. That was a rumor about one individual case. As I was, leaving the following morning, I gave orders to my orderly officer that the leader of the SS was to be told that in the area where I was commander-in-chief I would not tolerate any such bestiality. Since it was only a rumor, and as an order of mine to investigate the truth of the matter did not produce any witnesses who had seen it, the question was therewith settled. I immediately entered into the heaviest fighting and since then I received no further reports about the shooting of Jews.


DR. LATERNSER: But the witness Ohlendorf talked about the shooting of Jews in which members of the Armed Forces were


619


10 Aug. 46


supposed to have participated. Your headquarters was at Simferopol, was it not?


VON MANSTEIN: No. Only the chief quartermaster department was in Simferopol. I myself was with the command department about 20 kilometers away from Simferopol. That units of my army could have participated in the shooting of Jews, I consider quite out of the question. Ohlendorf moreover also spoke of army auxiliaries, that is, Police or OT (Todt Organization), or whatever it may have been. If a unit or officer of my army had participated in anything like that, it would have meant his end.

You discovered there was no evidence of resettlement so you proposed a conspiracy by the victors to cover it up.

But then you saw there was also no evidence of that, so now you propose another conspiracy (this time by the Germans!?) to make it seem like resettlement was happening even though it really wasn't? eg train records showing hundreds of thousands going to Belzec/Sobibor/Treblinka were faked? Ghetto censuses showing drastically less Jews also faked?

from Korherr's report:
We went over this in the other thread. Statements made at Nuremberg indicated that the Einsatzgruppen massively inflated all their numbers and gave conflicting reports. There is no conspiracy, in fact, this is literally the opposite of a conspiracy, this is disorganized chaos.

To give a hypothetical situation: Wehrmacht is given a directive to resettle the jews (for example, to ghettoes which were devastated by disease or starvation or police actions to insurrection), army commander sees this, doesn't see the point, and decides to just send them to the front for labor instead, or shoot them, or mark them down as resettled while not actually touching them at all. Minor commander is asked to resettle some people, adds a 0 to the end of the report because he thinks it'll look good. Etc.

You know that "The Germans" are not a single, monolithic entity connected by psychic link, eh? They each had their own views and goals, and the Wehrmacht regularly ignored Hitler's orders because they were almost like a closed society of their own. Of course, the Germans would have to be a hivemind connected by psychic link, in order to carry out the largest genocide in history with no written orders, and with no bones in the mass graves because the Germans perfectly carried out the deed and hid it without any instructions whatsoever. In fact, I would go so far as to say that I think this is the only genocide in history where the majority of victims left behind no bones. Only ash, which is of course very convenient for you, because you can just as easily claim that a cubic meter of Earth contains 1 cremated body as it does 100. If the bodies were burnt with wood, this would be different, as there would be charcoal, but we don't find massive amounts of charcoal anywhere. Wherever bodies are burnt, they would leave behind skeletons, but we don't see these either. So all we see is the most convenient evidence which can be claimed to be any number imaginable, and official are based solely on documents that are questionable at best. The 6 million number has been maintained for years even as the death tolls for Auschwitz and other camps was slashed into less than half. If you knocked a zero off the death tolls, and stopped trying to push the gas chamber hypothesis, then I would believe you.

By "testifying" publicly they would have opened themselves up to German punishment

yet Armia Krajowa makes clear a major source for their info: " The observations of the local population (the camp is within sight and hearing distance of the inhabitants near the railway station) led all of them to one conclusion: that there is a mass murder of the Jews inside the camp. The following facts testify to this:"
So nobody was willing to testify, except the organization at war with the Germans, who the British said were unreliable. Gotcha.

Also, is witness intimidation a viable defense now or not? Can you at least make up your mind on this or not?
 

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