The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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Rapechu

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Pretty sure that there isn’t a Holocaust denier who doesn’t openly hate Jews or believe all sorts of other conspiritard stuff about them.
What about Josef Ginsburg and David Cole, two holocaust documentarians, who had conducted investigations, interviewed many witnesses, and concluded that there were no gassings at Auschwitz? Did I mention that the both of them are jews themselves?

Personally, I am an idealist, I respect people who uphold principles of honesty and bravery, so I respect people like this who spoke out even while facing threats and beatings by ADL thugs, whatever religion or nationality they may be. I also respect intelligence, so in this capacity I respect Chugger as well, but the way he relies on his adversary's ignorance and high burden of proof to make bold claims, then keeps deflecting from topics he doesn't like, then reviving them later on while ignoring his opponent's past arguments, make me think he is being deliberately dishonest. It's clever, and it is just so foreign to the way that most people debate that it is quite astonishing when you see just how audacious a debater he is. Most people, when there is an area of ambiguity or where they have been proven wrong or contested on a point, will display some humility, and at least give a nod to their opponent and try to present a counterargument to what they had said previously, but Chugger just goes out there full throttle and says "Nope, 6 million jews died, 100% verified, no counterarguments whatsoever" without the slightest pause in his step.
 

Chugger

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After I proved these points, YOU changed the topics, not me, I just followed the new topics you set.
You seem to be mistaken here, I did not change to a new topic, I addressed it in two separate posts

I posted evidence of undocumented camps in the east,
You didn't post any evidence of undocumented camps. I asked you to provide this earlier, and you didn't respond.

Well let's examine these passing references. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I also made an entire post comparing the extensive documentation and witness evidence of less than 100k German Jews being moved into Russia in 1941, to the virtually zero evidence for 20x more Polish Jews being moved there in 1942. The suggestion that they simply would not keep this kind of records is not supported.

To this you also did not respond. Honestly, that's ok because there's a lot to talk about and we can always circle back to things. I'm a patient guy, and do give you credit for your research here. This stuff is tough because there's not a lot of revisionist writing on the subject.

you just responded "oh jewish slave labor and concentration camps aren't the same thing" (the hell?). Okay, so they weren't moved to the east to be "resettled", they were moved to the east for "slave labor" if you want to be petty about semantics and lie by omission.
For sure there is a difference between internment camps and hard labor camps like the ones you listed.

Anyway it's obvious from sources like Goebbels diaries that most of the Jews being moved into the east (err liquidated/subjected to a "barbaric" yet inconspicuous procedure) were gonna be non-working.

1638992576748.png


It's clear that the 40% to be put to work were also not exclusively going into the East. Rather they were sent to camps in Poland like Auschwitz, Majdanek, Stutthoff and many others. Indeed, there is record of only relatively small amount of Jews posted in labor camps in Occupied USSR territories

In Lithuania there might be enough to account for 1/3 or 1/4 of the pre-war Jewish population, but in other areas like Belarus and Ukraine there's not.

Here's our good friend Eduard Strauch (remember the "pits" at the "resettlement site"?) talking about the need to reduce amount of working Jews in Belarus, in spring 1943, a time by which according to revisionists 1.5 million Polish Jews had been rapidly moved into Russia. Even 22,000 was too much.

1638979955756.png


In the Ukraine in 1943 we hear references like this--almost no Jews to be seen, they too were liquidated (moved out of the Ukraine, to where, and what of the Polish Jews?)

1638976436983.png


1638976751891.png


So my unanswered question to you for references concerning your "camps of TENS OF THOUSANDS being left off of every map" is absolutely fair.

You also brought up the ashes at Belzec which were never seriously analyzed, which did not include a comparable amount of bone remains, which were heavily tampered with and dug up multiple times, and filled with other random bulk matter, and had tons of foreign furnace content dumped on top of them.
I pointed out presence of ash layers in almost all of the 30 something swimming pool sized graves they found, high proportion of ash to sand noted in the core sample illustrations (up to 50% according to Mattogno). The lack of bone remains is hardly surprising given that the literature says they were separated using sieves to be destroyed, and in fact demonstrates that the Nazis were trying to conceal or obscure the amount of bodies they were destroying.
 

Neo-Holstien

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What about Josef Ginsburg and David Cole, two holocaust documentarians, who had conducted investigations, interviewed many witnesses, and concluded that there were no gassings at Auschwitz? Did I mention that the both of them are jews themselves?

Personally, I am an idealist, I respect people who uphold principles of honesty and bravery, so I respect people like this who spoke out even while facing threats and beatings by ADL thugs, whatever religion or nationality they may be. I also respect intelligence, so in this capacity I respect Chugger as well, but the way he relies on his adversary's ignorance and high burden of proof to make bold claims, then keeps deflecting from topics he doesn't like, then reviving them later on while ignoring his opponent's past arguments, make me think he is being deliberately dishonest. It's clever, and it is just so foreign to the way that most people debate that it is quite astonishing when you see just how audacious a debater he is. Most people, when there is an area of ambiguity or where they have been proven wrong or contested on a point, will display some humility, and at least give a nod to their opponent and try to present a counterargument to what they had said previously, but Chugger just goes out there full throttle and says "Nope, 6 million jews died, 100% verified, no counterarguments whatsoever" without the slightest pause in his step.
stop, your lowering his grade in his Israeli middle school
 

Chugger

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What about Josef Ginsburg and David Cole
I don't know about Ginsburg (he doesn't seem to be an important figure) but Cole is definitely not a holocaust denier. He believes in millions gassed at Reinhardt camps and that most Jews in Russia were killed.

His main reasoning here is the lack of evidence for resettlement, meaning there is no viable alternative
 

Chugger

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Hey look I shut down @Chugger and ignores me because he's a coward liar. So when will you answer me directly, or are you completely incapable because it exposes you for what you really are?
I hold @Rapechu and @Lemmingwise in higher esteem than you, it's nothing personal but my prerogative

however if you think I'm constantly dodging shit, maybe you could go back and create a long list of arguments that I haven't responded to, prioritizing ones you think are more important. In general I prefer to respond to things an in depth way, so simply don't have time to address every single point someone raises, but I promise you I will do my best if people are curious
 

Bonesjones

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I hold @Rapechu and @Lemmingwise in higher esteem than you, it's nothing personal but my prerogative

however if you think I'm constantly dodging shit, maybe you could go back and create a long list of arguments that I haven't responded to, prioritizing ones you think are more important. In general I prefer to respond to things an in depth way, so simply don't have time to address every single point someone raises, but I promise you I will do my best if people are curious
Or just answer my last post you utter faggot. Where is the direct physical evidence that any of this happened, with no cop out answers.

A lying jew having no respect for me is about the highest honor you can bestow.

Sorry guys, I was mean. That means he doesn't actually have to prove anything. We just all have go accept it.
 
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Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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@Chugger this will be my last response for now, I am exhausted. I will make this more thorough than a usual post. Anyways, I respect your knowledge of history, even if I am making mean accusations about you.

You seem to be mistaken here, I did not change to a new topic, I addressed it in two separate posts


You didn't post any evidence of undocumented camps. I asked you to provide this earlier, and you didn't respond.
  • [1943] "Over 14,000 Jews from Belgium and Holland arrived in Nazi-occupied Ochakov, in Kherson, to do slave labor, Geneva sources reported on April 29."
  • Contemporary Jewish Record, vol. 6, no. 3 (June 1943), p. 300"
This is in Ukraine and I can find no records of an Ochakov concentration camp or ghetto, yet it is attested by neutral Swiss observers to exist in 1943.
  • "The forced labor consisted in the construction of a narrow gauge railway. In November 1943 the number of inmates rose to 462. Bodmann [an SS camp physician] mentioned the high percentage of inmates ‘completely unable to work’ who were, however, to be reduced.[180] The 33 registered deaths in November were likely not due to natural causes. In December 1943 and January 1944 the number of inmates was slightly reduced, and Bodmann registered 10 and 14 deaths respectively. 437 prisoners from Soski were brought to Kuremäe in February 1944[181], something which raised the total number to 850.[182] On 8 and 6 February prisoners on the work sites were killed by Soviet artillery fire."
What is most interesting to me about this is that the camp existed until 1944, and also that it was very tiny, only 450-850 people. This shows that the jews weren't all concentrated in large camps of thousands of people, but were distributed over a wide area. It also shows that the Soviets did bomb these camps and kill the jews there inadvertantly.
  • “Just received a message from Łódź. For us, Łódź is one of those cities from which you can obtain almost no information. Of course, the rumors from there are crazy and wild, and according to them, it is already certain that there are no Jews in Łódź\.
  • Now I learn from two young people who were taken out of the Łódź Ghetto in March that Łódź has a ghetto. There is no shooting, and mass executions are unknown. The only thing is, people are taken off to work. They figure that about 10,000 Jews have recently been sent out of Łódź. Now the young people know what it is to be sent out to work. They are dragged around from place to place; they don’t know where they are or what they are doing. From time to time, groups are pulled out and disappear, and they assume that they are shot…
  • Both of the young men escaped from such a group, and after a week of wandering, they were arrested in Vilna [and taken to] Łukiszki [a prison in Vilna] and were released from there only two days ago. Here in the ghetto they were clothed, and soon they will be sent to forest work.”[121]
Most people didn't even know Lodz had a ghetto, Germans were keeping jews very isolated from eachother (probably to prevent organized uprisings), but it was testified that there are no shootings or executions. People assumed to have been killed were really instead sent to do forest work, with no sinister intentions, only chopping down trees. There are no specific names for these logging/roadbuilding sites ever given.
  • "In a small village, which before the occupation had constituted a kolkhoz, the camp [Trostinec] was located; to this belonged an estate of 250 hectares. Here the prisoners were also housed, first in pig sties, later in barracks which each housed 150 to 160 people. During 1942 a total of 39,000 Jews from Germany, Austria, Bohemia-Moravia, Luxembourg, Holland and also from the Soviet Union were brought to Trostinetz, but in the camp itself there were never more than 640 Jews at one time, most of them Jews from Vienna; among the inmates there were also some hundreds of Russian prisoners of war."
There were no gas chambers in this camp or crematoria, nor any witnesses to killings within the camps, only that new arrivals were driven out from the camp in trucks after arriving (similar to the above quote), it is almost certain therefore that it served as a transit zone for dispersing workers to smaller labor camps in the forests of the region
  • The name “Koromej” is not to be found on any map of Eastern Europe. Distel was however referring to a real place. The location of “Koromej” can be identified with certainty thanks partially to Distel’s mention of other places, partially thanks to the testimony of a certain Miriam Reich, a Jewess from Kovno who on 26 October 1943 was deported to “Camp Kurame” in Estonia.
This is a woman here who was transited in late 1943, and also what is interesting is that there are translation difficulties which made it hard for the historian to figure out where they came from, and it is only by using the context of other things she said that this was pieced together. This seems to indicate that locations were given different names by different people depending on language.
  • "Five Jews who risked their lives by escaping from a labor camp, where they had been employed at highway construction, arrived in the Ghetto, having traveled by various routes. The inmates of this labor camp had been transferred by road to Riga, and fifty Jews escaped during the transfer. As they jumped off the trucks, they were shot at. Two of the escapees waded into the [unnamed] river and remained hiding there, submerged in the water up to their necks. After the first danger passed, they entered the forest and hid there. Then they traveled by roundabout paths until they reached Kovno."
Security was lax, probably understaffed. There are LOTS of stories of jews escaping these camps. This probably indicates that the camps were undermanned by German guards.
  • [1942] [Yehuda] Lerner: And so, it is there that everything started; for nearly a week, we traveled in these freight cars; each day we were given a little water through the door. After we were placed in the freight cars, they distributed to us a loaf of bread each, and soon we arrived in Belorussia and we were unloaded for work, the place where we arrived was located near an old airport.
    Lanzmann: What was it called?
    Lerner: The name of the place, I do not remember exactly [...]
Jew arrives in Belarus, taken to an unnamed place (or else simply was never told the name).
  • https://holocamps.weebly.com/-waldlager.html
  • Waldlager 5/6 used up virtually the entire forest known as Roter Steig and was rectangular. The size of the camp was 375 x 450 meters. For camouflage purposes, this specific site was chosen for the camp because of the tall tress that would provide excellent cover from Allied airplanes. Measures were taken with the barbed wire fence to prevent locals from seeing into the camp.
Camps in the woods were kept hidden, from soviet airplanes and from locals, for reasons of military security. People who approached one were shot.
  • [May 1942] As a result of the pressure from the military authorities, the Jewish Councils in Lublin and Cracow districts have received orders to deliver able-bodied Jews for transportation to ‘unknown destinations.’ The first transports, which left this week, led to the tragic separation of many families, the report states, since it is almost certain that none of the deported Jews will ever return to their homes. In the meantime, the Jewish Councils, already overburdened with relief problems with which they are not able to cope because of the acute shortage of funds, are faced with the new problem of caring for the women and children whom the deported Jews left behind without any means of support.”
Once again, military matters are kept shrouded in secrecy. Here it is the able-bodied who were transported, (so you can't claim they were selected out to be killed), while the non-workers remained in the care of their neighbors.
  • “Nazis in Holland plan to deport young Jews to Russia, others to Germany
    LONDON, Sep. 3 (JTA) – Nazi authorities in Holland have issued an announcement stating that all Jews between 18 and 40 years of age will be deported to the devastated areas of occupied Russia, while all physically fit Jews between 40 and 60 years of age will be sent to Germany for forced labor after undergoing a physical examination.
    The announcement, which reached Dutch government circles here today, warns non-Jewish doctors in Holland not to furnish medical certificates of disability to Jews between 40 and 60 who are sufficiently healthy to be sent for work in the Reich. The warning implies that doctors found guilty of issuing such disability certificates may themselves be sent to labor camps in Germany.”
More context as to how they were selected. It seems like most were sent to the front for labor near the front line (and once again, these are the fit ones so you can't say that they were selected for killing due to being nonworkers).
  • The identification papers of the deported Jews are destroyed and their names stricken out; they are henceforth only designated by numbers. It is therefore hardly possible to keep up a correspondence.
Jews taken to the east are quite literally not given any identification papers whatsoever, so there goes the "Germans meticulously documented everything" claim. This is probably so that the soviets wouldn't be able to read their transit records and infer details about the German rail network. Upon arriving in the east, it became impossible to track down jews by name.
  • Railroad facilities being overburdened, the Nazi authorities in Poland have instituted a system whereby the Jewish and Polish deportees must cover at least forty miles a day on foot.
Transport by foot, not using rails or trucks, was common, so this explains why some terminal seemed to be "end points" with no trains leaving.
  • “200,000 More Jews herded into labor camps in Poland following new raids
    ZURICH, Jun. 19 (JTA) – Mass raids on Jewish residences are reported today to be taking place throughout Nazi-held Poland for the purpose of rounding-up Jews and sending them to forced labor camps where they are compelled to work at difficult jobs under inhuman conditions.
    The report says that more than 200,000 Polish Jews have recently been herded into thirty-seven ‘Jewish’ labor camps. Of them, twelve were opened only last week, including two in the Baranovici district, where the Jews are compelled to work at draining the Pinsk swamps.”
Swiss sources attest to jews being put to work in many camps, 12 of which opened in a week, and engaging in draining swamps.
  • https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/himmler-orders-liquidation-of-ostland-ghettos-june-1943
  • 1) I order that all Jews still remaining in ghettos in the Ostland area be collected in concentration camps.
  • 2) I prohibit the withdrawal of Jews from concentration camps for [outside] work from August 1, 1943
  • 3) A concentration camp is to be built near Riga to which will be transferred the entire manufacture of clothing and equipment now operated by the Wehrmacht outside. All private firms will be eliminated. The workshops are to be solely concentration camp workshops. The Chief of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office is requested to see to it that there will be no shortfall in the production required by the Wehrmacht as the result of this reorganization.
  • 4) Inmates of the Jewish ghettos who are not required are to be evacuated to the East.
  • 5) As many male Jews as possible are to be taken to the concentration camp in the oil-shale area for the mining of oil-shale
Himmler specifically ordered that all the jews in liquidated ghettoes be placed into camps, and is very specific about the industries they are intended to work in. This tells us that "liquidate" doesn't mean kill, it just means moved to camp from a ghetto, for forced labor. He says literally "all jews [...] be collected inconcentration camps", as the first bullet, then specifies that they be sent eastward if they cannot be put to use. I have given an example of a camp or ghetto in or near Ochakov, which doesn't appear to be documented anywhere, and of people being transported to Trostinetz, after arrival, they are driven out on trucks. I have also posted of a female jew, Miriam Reich, who had been sent to do labor (so women weren't mass-executed). And I have provided the testimony of 200,000 Polish jews being put to work draining Belarussian swamps.


And so on, this illustrates the existence of camps in the east, settled in 1942 and 1943, and also that
1) places existed which we now cannot find evidence for other than in testimony
2) jews often had trouble describing their location, using names
3) jews believed to have been killed, were really just doing forestry in unnamed camps
4) jews were stripped of their papers upon arriving east
5) jewish camps were kept top secret
6) infrastructure was crap and people had to walk on foot very often
7) Large engineering projects, like draining swamps, were underway
8) 12 camps could spring up in a week within a location

Etc. etc. etc. I would also like to point out that many of these quotes are only circulated and publicized because they contain anti-German propaganda value. So it is only by cross-examining witnesses AGAINST Germany, that we can see contradictions in the story, because benevolent references to Germany are very rarely republished, as they serve no political purpose.

I also made an entire post comparing the extensive documentation and witness evidence of less than 100k German Jews being moved into Russia in 1941, to the virtually zero evidence for 20x more Polish Jews being moved there in 1942. The suggestion that they simply would not keep this kind of records is not supported.
There is also a massive difference in the needs of the time period. In 1941, the Germans thought victory was guaranteed, and wanted everything they did to be fine and professional, while in 1942 and 1943, the situation had changed and they were becoming more pragmatic. It was said even that jews arriving in the east had their papers destroyed, probably so that the soviets wouldn't be able to read transit records and infer details about the German rail network.

To this you also did not respond. Honestly, that's ok because there's a lot to talk about and we can always circle back to things. I'm a patient guy, and do give you credit for your research here. This stuff is tough because there's not a lot of revisionist writing on the subject.

For sure there is a difference between internment camps and hard labor camps like the ones you listed.

Anyway it's obvious from sources like Goebbels diaries that most of the Jews being moved into the east (err liquidated/subjected to a "barbaric" yet inconspicuous procedure) were gonna be non-working.

View attachment 2784246

As illustrated in the previous post regarding Ostland, "liquidation" really just means transferred from a ghetto to a camp (or perhaps to a more easterly ghetto). Is it "barbaric" or "ruthless" to place people on trains and send them far away from their homes? Goebbels seems to think so:
  • "I have once again talked over the Jewish question with the Fuhrer. His position on this problem is merciless. He wants to force the Jews right out of Europe. At this moment Himmler is handling the major transfer of Jews from the German cities into the eastern ghettoes."
  • -Goebbels
This is a diary entry that occurs at a later date, where Goebbels elaborates on just what is going on. So the "barbaric procedure" that Goebbels describes, is really just forcing the jews out of Europe.

Goebbels is also... a bit of a radical and a loose cannon, as we saw with Krystalnacht (which Goebbels organized), his actions actually angered the other party members.

“He [Hess, Hitler's right hand at the time] had personally issued a circular telegram to all the gauleiters in November 1938 halting the outrages of the Kristallnacht.”[27]

So whatever Goebbels says, remember that his perspectives are those of probably the single most radical pro-war, anti-jew NSDAP party member.

It's clear that the 40% to be put to work were also not exclusively going into the East. Rather they were sent to camps in Poland like Auschwitz, Majdanek, Stutthoff and many others. Indeed, there is record of only relatively small amount of Jews posted in labor camps in Occupied USSR territories
This seems to be to keep the camps secret from the soviets.

In Lithuania there might be enough to account for 1/3 or 1/4 of the pre-war Jewish population, but in other areas like Belarus and Ukraine there's not.

Here's our good friend Eduard Strauch (remember the "pits" at the "resettlement site"?) talking about the need to reduce amount of working Jews in Belarus, in spring 1943, a time by which according to revisionists 1.5 million Polish Jews had been rapidly moved into Russia. Even 22,000 was too much.

View attachment 2783765
Here he is clearly talking about economic enterprises. He wants to remove the jews from paid jobs, and put them into hard labor.

In fact, here he specifically says, the Germans saved the jews from being murdered by the Belarussians, and gave the jews comfy jobs, which they are now so integral to, that it is difficult to get rid of them from the economy. "At a time when the Bielorussians wanted to murder the Jews, the Wehrmacht cultivated them."

In the Ukraine in 1943 we hear references like this--almost no Jews to be seen, they too were liquidated (moved out of the Ukraine, to where, and what of the Polish Jews?)

View attachment 2783660
They only saw 4 jews because they were moved out of public life into ghettoes or camps.

Once again, this is a commentary on the economic destruction of moving the jews out of the cities

So my unanswered question to you for references concerning your "camps of TENS OF THOUSANDS being left off of every map" is absolutely fair.
  • [1943] "Over 14,000 Jews from Belgium and Holland arrived in Nazi-occupied Ochakov, in Kherson, to do slave labor, Geneva sources reported on April 29."
  • Contemporary Jewish Record, vol. 6, no. 3 (June 1943), p. 300"
  • “200,000 More Jews herded into labor camps in Poland following new raids
    ZURICH, Jun. 19 (JTA) – Mass raids on Jewish residences are reported today to be taking place throughout Nazi-held Poland for the purpose of rounding-up Jews and sending them to forced labor camps where they are compelled to work at difficult jobs under inhuman conditions.
    The report says that more than 200,000 Polish Jews have recently been herded into thirty-seven ‘Jewish’ labor camps. Of them, twelve were opened only last week, including two in the Baranovici district, where the Jews are compelled to work at draining the Pinsk swamps.”
einsatzgruppen administration -russia.jpg


Pinsk is in Reichskommissariat Ukraine

I pointed out presence of ash layers in almost all of the 30 something swimming pool sized graves they found, high proportion of ash to sand noted in the core sample illustrations (up to 50% according to Mattogno). The lack of bone remains is hardly surprising given that the literature says they were separated using sieves to be destroyed, and in fact demonstrates that the Nazis were trying to conceal or obscure the amount of bodies they were destroying.
The pits were mostly filled with random garbage from the camp, were dug up by Poles and Soviets, which massively expanded their sizes, which diluted the contents, and there were never any mentions of what industries the camp had (probably armaments) so this means furnaces used for casting bullets and so on, which would produce industrial residue. Unfortunately, the site was contaminated for "artistic" reasons, without the ashes ever having been analyzed to determine whether they were human remains, and how badly mixed in with the dirt they were.

There is also the absolute insanity of killing, cremating, bone-hiding, and burying something like 2500 jews in a single day... with a guard staff of only 50ish people and minimal permanent crematory facilities. Like even if there were 500 coerced jewish workers there, could they not have organized some sort of jailbreak? It strains the mind to think of a train of 1500 jews coming in, and being herded by some 25 people while the other 25 people herded 500 jewish workers who were cremating thousands of bodies in pits in the ground in plain sight of the 1500 jews who just arrived. And somehow these handful of guards kept thousands of people calm and organized as they marched them into the death chamber.
 
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Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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I don't know about Ginsburg (he doesn't seem to be an important figure) but Cole is definitely not a holocaust denier. He believes in millions gassed at Reinhardt camps and that most Jews in Russia were killed.

His main reasoning here is the lack of evidence for resettlement, meaning there is no viable alternative
David Cole


I can't rewatch the whole thing right now to provide all the most relevant timestamps, but the whole interview is really amazing and shows the culture around holocaust academia. Around 41 minutes, he says he did holocaust propaganda films knowing they were fake, but the things he said about holocaust revisionism he really believed in. He said he did this because the JDL (Jewish Defense League) was threatening his life and forced him to leave revisionism, but he still needed to make money, and the holocaust was his main area of knowledge, so it was all he could actually do at this point in his life.

It seems he has a youtube channel, I haven't watched it recently, but man, if he flip-flopped again, then I retract what I said about him being brave. Not that I blame him for caving into death threats a second time, but still.

Josef Ginsburg


J. G. Burg (real name Josef Ginsburg; also written as Joseph or Ginzburg; born in 1908 in Czernowitz; died in 1990 in Munich) was the pseudonym of a German speaking Jewish journalist and Holocaust revisionist.

He was the author of many books ("Schuld und Schicksal", "Zionazi", "Das Tagebuch der Anne Frank", "Auschwitz in alle Ewigkeit" etc.) as well as many pamphlets and two documentary interviews with Ernst Zündel.

He was a witness in 1988 in Ernst Zündel's Holocaust trials. He testified that he after the end of the war in 1945 had visited Auschwitz and had also visited Majdanek, had spoken to hundreds of people who had serviced and operated the crematoria, and had concluded that no homicidal gas chambers existed and that there had been no plan to exterminate the Jews of Europe.[1]
 

Chugger

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Or just answer my last post you utter faggot. Where is the direct physical evidence that any of this happened, with no cop out answers.

A lying jew having no respect for me is about the highest honor you can bestow.

Sorry guys, I was mean. That means he doesn't actually have to prove anything. We just all have go accept it.
It's not a question of respect at all but just that your arguments aren't as reasoned out as theirs. You don't engage as much with what I say, and so we talk in circles, eg you've asked me that same simple question about physical evidence, and I've told you multiple times probably. You can go back and look at my previous answers.
I also respect intelligence, so in this capacity I respect Chugger as well, but the way he relies on his adversary's ignorance and high burden of proof to make bold claims, then keeps deflecting from topics he doesn't like, then reviving them later on while ignoring his opponent's past arguments, make me think he is being deliberately dishonest
What topics have I deflected from? I don't answer every argument, since I have limited time and prefer to go more in depth. If I've missed any super serious points please let me know, and we will eventually circle back.

I'm also not that smart, you just may think I am because the evidence for the holocaust is so high compared to the revisionist alternative. It's a near impossible argument against somebody who is moderately well read, so I give you credit just for trying.

Most people, when there is an area of ambiguity or where they have been proven wrong or contested on a point, will display some humility, and at least give a nod to their opponent and try to present a counterargument to what they had said previously, but Chugger just goes out there full throttle and says "Nope, 6 million jews died, 100% verified, no counterarguments whatsoever" without the slightest pause in his step.
I've put my personal number of deaths at a little over 5 million, though it could be higher or lower. However I don't really get stuck up here. If you're like David Cole / Mark Weber / David Irving and deny some aspects of the Holocaust while still affirming millions were out and out murdered, I have no big issues. I have bones to pick with those who say "absolutely no mass gassings, small scale totally justified shootings in the East, and the interned Jews were treated much much better than Soviet POWs" (of whom all acknowledge 2/3rds died by 42) . This position seems perversely unreasonable to me, which is why I'm interested in it.

That said, where have I been proven wrong? On what point? You can list the examples for us to eventually circle back to.

I also see you just made a long post on Kues's article which isn't even trying to prove resettlement but mostly that Jews transited East through supposed death camps (though there is no record of anyone going through Belzec, Treblinka, Sobibor, and showing up in the East). It might take me some time to go through it, but we should slow down for both our sakes.
 

Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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My position right now is: Germans probably did engages in reprisal killings against jews, en-masse, including women and children (but they seemed to favor killing men by a rather large margin). They did these as an intimidation tactic in a direct response to jewish uprisings and in response to soviet massacres of German allies (like Ukrainians). I think there is more than enough evidence to attest to this. However, I don't believe that there was an additional, top-secret, genocide campaign going on beside this.
 

NJBear

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Pretty good article about one of the main holocaust researchers admitting that there really isn't any physical evidence, and that they rely on "eyewitness testimony" which happens to be made decades after the fact after everyone got their stories coordinated.

The closer in time you get to 1945, the more unbelievable and outlandish the eyewitness stories appear. Stories about blood gushing in fountains out of the ground, etc. Or stories of people put in a room and electrocuted until there was nothing but a layer of ashes on the ground.

1587668733595.jpg
 

Bonesjones

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Hey look chugger dodged posting hitlers direct orders to kill all the jews, proof that they killed all the jews, and proof of the remains of all the jews. We aren't even counting the other accused 6 million deaths associated. Weird.

Saying lol I answered that isn't an answer, saying i must have missed the question isn't an answer. Its a failure top to bottom to even begin an argument.

My reasoning is exact. It just leaves you zero room to wiggle your way out of the question. Which you hate because that is all you have on your side as an argument.

The fact I've stopped pretending to listen to your misdirection and attempts at obfuscation isn't a benefit, it's damnation.

You again have not posted proof that Hitler ordered the death of all jews. You again have posted no proof of the mechanism of their deaths. You again have posted no proof of the result of their remains. There is no argument for the Holocaust that doesn't begin with proof of any of it and end with any of it. Everything else is misdirection.

People saying they think they saw is worth as much as people thinking they saw a UFO. If you can't prove it exists its hearsay. So prove it exists.

Katyn wasn't proven to be a Soviet crime because Germany said it was, it was proven because they put in the work to forensicly prove the what, when, how, and who.
 

Chugger

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It seems he has a youtube channel, I haven't watched it recently, but man, if he flip-flopped again, then I retract what I said about him being brave. Not that I blame him for caving into death threats a second time, but still.
There were no recent death threats lol. He talks about the entire thing in this interview. Around 30 minutes in he starts talking about the evidence that changed his mind, https://youtu.be/IahxTQl1MWM?t=1805

the very Goebbels passage we were just discussing, which is a good place for us to start

1639021159770.png


Before we get into your evidence about the existence of large "undocumented camps" let's clear a few things up. Is Goebbels speaking loosely when he says "only 40% can be put to work"--therefore the 60% scheduled to be liquidated might really also be put to work? There are many other references in the literature to employable vs non-employable Jews eg

1639021429842.png


1639021450701.png


1639021502857.png

What should we make of these statements? It seems like they were mostly sending Jews deemed "unfit for work" to the east, that is probably children, elderly Jews, and the sick and infirm, those whittled down by harsh conditions in the ghettos. Do you think these people were nonetheless subjected to hard labor?

Or were they sent to camps like this (Japanese internment camps) w/ slightly worse conditions, a comparison I often see Holocaust deniers make

1639025337076.png



1639025399610.png


1639025486388.png


--

The second preliminary point I have to make is the notion that Jewish resettlement camps were "top-secret", that's why there's no record of them.

This a recurring theme in your detailed post eg here:
There is also a massive difference in the needs of the time period. In 1941, the Germans thought victory was guaranteed, and wanted everything they did to be fine and professional, while in 1942 and 1943, the situation had changed and they were becoming more pragmatic. It was said even that jews arriving in the east had their papers destroyed, probably so that the soviets wouldn't be able to read transit records and infer details about the German rail network.

In response to my statement of there being German record of only relatively few Jewish laborers in the USSR (a fraction of the pre-war Jewish population) you said:
This seems to be to keep the camps secret from the soviets.

Rapechu, this is the first time I've heard such a theory. Did you come up with it yourself or did you read it somewhere? No revisionist that I am aware of has advanced anything like this

Therefore additional clarification is needed

eg


A) What do documents have to do with secrecy exactly? The Soviets didn't have access to German documents at this time except possibly through spies. Is this what you meant?
B) As part of this "top secret" resettlement program, did they create documents and then destroy them? Did they move millions of Jews around Russia, distributed through possibly tens of thousands of different camps, mostly through oral communication?
C) Lastly, why was it so important to keep these camps secret? Tiny peat harvesting camps and so forth, or larger camps housing mostly children, very elderly or infirm Jews.
 
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Chugger

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Sep 22, 2021
Hey look chugger dodged posting hitlers direct orders to kill all the jews, proof that they killed all the jews, and proof of the remains of all the jews. We aren't even counting the other accused 6 million deaths associated. Weird.

Saying lol I answered that isn't an answer, saying i must have missed the question isn't an answer. Its a failure top to bottom to even begin an argument.

My reasoning is exact. It just leaves you zero room to wiggle your way out of the question. Which you hate because that is all you have on your side as an argument.

The fact I've stopped pretending to listen to your misdirection and attempts at obfuscation isn't a benefit, it's damnation.

You again have not posted proof that Hitler ordered the death of all jews. You again have posted no proof of the mechanism of their deaths. You again have posted no proof of the result of their remains. There is no argument for the Holocaust that doesn't begin with proof of any of it and end with any of it. Everything else is misdirection.

People saying they think they saw is worth as much as people thinking they saw a UFO. If you can't prove it exists its hearsay. So prove it exists.

Katyn wasn't proven to be a Soviet crime because Germany said it was, it was proven because they put in the work to forensicly prove the what, when, how, and who.
How's this Bonejones
Hey look Bonesjones dodged posting hitlers direct orders resettle all the jews, proof that they resettled all the jews, and proof of the continued existence of all the resettled Jews.

My reasoning is exact. It just leaves you zero room to wiggle your way out of the question. Which you hate because that is all you have on your side as an argument.

The fact I've stopped pretending to listen to your misdirection and attempts at obfuscation isn't a benefit, it's damnation.

You again have not posted proof that Hitler ordered the resettlement of all jews. You again have posted no proof of the mechanism of their resettlement. You again have posted no proof of their continued existence. There is no argument for resettlement that doesn't begin with proof of any of it and end with any of it. Everything else is misdirection.

Maybe now you see how you come off like a raving drunk outside a supermarket, and why I don't want talk to you. Take a chill pill lol, it's not the end of the world that I believe in the holocaust
 

Bonesjones

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Jan 27, 2021
How's this Bonejones


Maybe now you see how you come off like a raving drunk outside a supermarket, and why I don't want talk to you. Take a chill pill lol, it's not the end of the world that I believe in the holocaust
Ok you didn't answer at all and just deflected yet again. You've lost. You are nothing but a liar who won't shut up.
 

Rapechu

If you bore me, I shall take my revenge
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Sep 28, 2021
There were no recent death threats lol. He talks about the entire thing in this interview. Around 30 minutes in he starts talking about the evidence that changed his mind, https://youtu.be/IahxTQl1MWM?t=1805

the very Goebbels passage we were just discussing, which is a good place for us to start

View attachment 2785453

Before we get into your evidence about the existence of large "undocumented camps" let's clear a few things up. Is Goebbels speaking loosely when he says "only 40% can be put to work"--therefore the 60% scheduled to be liquidated might really also be put to work? There are many other references in the literature to employable vs non-employable Jews eg

View attachment 2785458

View attachment 2785459

View attachment 2785472
What should we make of these statements? It seems like they were mostly sending Jews deemed "unfit for work" to the east, that is probably children, elderly Jews, and the sick and infirm, those whittled down by harsh conditions in the ghettos. Do you think these people were nonetheless subjected to hard labor?
It seems from my earlier quote, older but still fit men (jewish men aged 40-60) were sent into the Reich's heartland to do work. Probably they were sent to do lighter work than the people sent east. I have also posted examples of women (Miriam Reich) who were sent to do hard labor as well. So that leaves the children, what happened to them? Well studies on the area are heavily biased and have to deal with the fact that jews sent east were often cut off after the war by the iron curtain from returning home, and were presumed dead by authorities; but we can see some interesting pieces of information:

"For the Dutch city of Groningen and the Dutch provinces of Utrecht and Limburg, individual-based studies show some socio-demographic differences in Holocaust survival. A multivariable logistic regression on 3900 Jews living in Utrecht showed that being a woman, being young or being in the highest social class increased chances of survival (Croes 2001). A similar analysis on 2500 Jews living in Groningen (Croes and Tammes 2006: 43–63) showed that intermarried Jews and Jews in the two highest social classes had higher survival chances. Van Rens (2013: 354–355) presented t test statistics on socio-demographic differences in survival among 1400 Jews living in Limburg. For age, especially Jewish children aged 0–10 showed the highest proportion of survivors, and for nationality Polish Jews showed the highest proportion of survivors and German Jews the lowest."

jewish pop pyramid amsterdam.png


Population pyramid of Amsterdam (this includes only survivors who returned to Amsterdam after liberation, therefore, it is not certain that the losses are entirely due to death). Both survivors and the original population have the same rounded shape indicating no particular targetting of the young or old or women. Though I would expect that children and the old would be more likely to die from the disease outbreaks or starvation at the camps (results of circumstances beyond the Germans' control).

In fact, we see a large number of jewish orphans:

"The future of the thousands of orphaned Jewish children became a pressing matter. In the Netherlands, more than half of the 4,000 to 6,000 surviving Jewish children were declared “war foster children” (Oorlogspleegkinderen), and most were placed under a state committee's guardianship. The vast majority were returned to a surviving family member or a Jewish organization, but more than 300 were given to non-Jewish families."
-United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

"Many surviving Jewish children fled eastern Europe with or without their families as part of the mass exodus (Brihah) to the western zones of occupied Germany, en route to the Yishuv (the Jewish settlement in Palestine). Through Youth Aliyah Youth Immigration), thousands migrated to the Yishuv, and then to the state of Israel after its establishment in 1948."
-United States Holocaust Memorial Museum

Overall, even from what skewed data there is, it doesn't seem like children were more likely to die, but were more or less equally likely (or more likely in some cases) to return home than their parents.


Or were they sent to camps like this (Japanese internment camps) w/ slightly worse conditions, a comparison I often see Holocaust deniers make

View attachment 2785605


View attachment 2785606

View attachment 2785607
Here is a basically randomly-selected example of a concentration camp on the Ukrainian border with Romania:


Pechora (also Pechera or Pecioara; Russian: Печера or Печора) was a concentration camp operated by Romania during World War II in the village of Pechora, now in Ukraine.

The concentration camp was established on the gated grounds of what had been a private estate of the Polish noble Potocki family on the banks of the Southern Bug river, which was converted into a sanatorium for tuberculosis patients after the Russian revolution.[1]

The camp was located in the Romanian zone of occupation of Ukraine. Beginning in November 1941, Jews from the surrounding regions, including Tulchyn, Bratslav, Shpikov, Tostyanets, as well as more distant regions, were brought to Pechora to perish in the enclosed grounds.[2] [3] At the camp, prisoners were murdered not through systematic extermination by gas, but rather through starvation, thirst, and exposure to the elements.

No photos of the camp in operation are currently available, though survivor testimonies are plentiful.[4]

Although estimates vary, it is believed that as many as 35,000 prisoners were killed at the camp.[5] By the time the camp was liberated by the Red Army on March 17, 1944, no more that 300-400 people were left alive. A mass grave is located at the nearby Jewish cemetery.[6]

Today, the grounds of the former estate are known as "Pechera Park" and are open to visitors, while the main administrative building on the grounds operates as a hospital. There are relatively few reminders of its sinister role during the war. A few memorial plaques have been erected on the grounds, while a more extensive monument and additional memorial stones stand at the site of the mass graves at the Jewish cemetery.[7]
Here is one man's testimony of this camp:
My older brother Shmil remained in the camp. To his wife managed to escape and get to Mogilev, and he with two children stayed in the camp. He does not have money or valuables for ransom was, and yet, promising to pay at the place of arrival, he managed persuade the guide and, together with other prisoners, got out with two babies in her arms from the camp. It was in winter, almost Without clothing. First one child freezes, the ground is frozen, it is impossible to bury, everyone is urged to move faster, Shmil leaves the child right in the forest. All behind the first the second child freezes. The same story. Reaching Mogilev, Shmil learns that his wife and son were taken to camp Ananiev, which is near Odessa. After liberation, they met in Mogilev, having lost two children frozen. Riva until her release she remained in Dzigovka. Pesya survived spent the whole war underground in the village of Kapisterna near relatives of the husband. Until my release, I remained in in the Mogilev ghetto, wandered, slept where necessary. Mama not allowed to come to the hospital, only tried to get and brought me food.
-Maurice Bronstein "Loop"

Note that almost the entire camp was killed, not by being shot or gassed, but through poor conditions, which, as I stated before, is due to the fact that the British quite literally placed ALL OF EUROPE under siege, and also the axis loss of air superiority which led to bombed out supply lines. No photos of the camp in operation, which is typical due to the security in place, so I can't show you exactly how it would have looked, nor can anyone, but that doesn't mean it didn't exist. The camp is also testified to have had women with children, though the example is rather sad, as the woman attempts to escape in the middle of winter with her two babies and the children freeze in the woods.

Also interesting, is that there is the mention of another concentration camp: Ananiev, which seems to be almost a ghost, with no information available on it (it is in Ukraine). Though in his testimony, it has women and children taken to it, who were reunited after liberation (so it wasn't an execution ground). Also, the narrator states that he lived in the Mogilev Ghetto until liberation, which is in Belarus, so this ghetto clearly was never liquidated as you claimed all the ghettoes in the east were. It is as I said in the other thread, the order may have been given for the ghettoes to be liquidated, but just because of that, it doesn't mean that the liquidization was in fact fully implemented. Junior SS officials could have lied to their superiors (and in fact, we have seen testimonies to that effect, which I have posted in the past) and claimed that areas were resettled, which in fact weren't. There appears to be a major difference between the liquidation goals and what happened in practice.

The second preliminary point I have to make is the notion that Jewish resettlement camps were "top-secret", that's why there's no record of them.

This a recurring theme in your detailed post eg here:


In response to my statement of there being German record of only relatively few Jewish laborers in the USSR (a fraction of the pre-war Jewish population) you said:


Rapechu, this is the first time I've heard such a theory. Did you come up with it yourself or did you read it somewhere? No revisionist that I am aware of has advanced anything like this

Therefore additional clarification is needed

eg


A) What do documents have to do with secrecy exactly? The Soviets didn't have access to German documents at this time except possibly through spies. Is this what you meant?
Here is the full quote:
The Israelitisches Wochenblatt für die Schweiz (Israelite Weekly for Switzerland) published many reports on the progress of the “Final solution” during the war years. In its issue from 16 October 1942 the weekly reported (p. 10f.):
”For some time there has been a trend toward dissolution of the ghettos in Poland. That was the case with Lublin, then it was Warsaw’s turn. It is not known how far the plan has been carried out already. The former residents of the ghetto are going farther to the east into the occupied Russian territory; Jews from Germany were brought into the ghetto to partly take their place. […] Of late, transports of Jews from Belgium and other western European countries were observed in Riga, but they moved on immediately to other destinations.”
In the issue of 27 November 1942 we read:
“On a daily basis trains depart from Berlin for the east, part of them [destined] for the ghettos, part of them for drainage work in the territories of eastern Poland and Russia. Authorities in New York are reported to have learned that a Jewish settlement rayon for all the Jews of Western Europe is to be established in the former Polish-Russian border zone and if necessary used as a political means of pressure. The deportations from Germany, Austria, Holland, Belgium and France are to cease by the end of this year. The identification papers of the deported Jews are destroyed and their names stricken out; they are henceforth only designated by numbers. It is therefore hardly possible to keep up a correspondence. [...] In Paris 4,000 Romanian Jews and Jewesses have been arrested and taken out of the city. They were allowed to bring food for two days. [...] The London-based newspaper ‘France’ carries a notice that 20,000 Jews deported from France have arrived in Bessarabia in a pitiful state. The trains went straight to Kischinev [Chisinau] and Calarisi to deliver the prisoners to the local ghettos there.”
So this is all the context that is given. I am simply advancing speculation as to why this may be. I am thinking that, since the eastern auxiliaries (Ukrainians, Belarussians, Baltics, etc.) were heavily involved in the handling of jews, that the Germans may have feared soviet spies, so kept the paper trail minimal inside the occupied USSR territory where the jews were being resettled. My best guess is, because they did not want the soviets to understand their railway system, as this has serious strategic implications for the war. They also probably didn't want the jewish camps to become targets for soviet bombing.

B) As part of this "top secret" resettlement program, did they create documents and then destroy them? Did they move millions of Jews around Russia, distributed through possibly tens of thousands of different camps, mostly through oral communication?
I can only say what the quote said, that the documents were destroyed and identification of individual jews ceased upon arrival east. We see in fact that many testimonies include jews escaping the camps, being caught, sent to a ghetto or another camp, as if nothing happened, so the Germans clearly don't know who is an escapee and who isn't, because I would have presumed they shot escapees.

C) Lastly, why was it so important to keep these camps secret? Tiny peat harvesting camps and so forth, or larger camps housing mostly children, very elderly or infirm Jews.
The camps near the front line had to be hidden from bombing, the concentrations of camps need to be kept hidden so as not to become a strategic target for being seized by the soviets. The railways are vital to the German logistics network, and so on. I can think of dozens of reasons why you wouldn't want to give away information to the enemy.
 
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Bonesjones

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How long do you think it will take chugger to finally say "I'm a jew and there is no proof Hitler ever ordered the genocide of jews"? I'm thinking forever.