The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

How long do you think it will take chugger to finally say "I'm a jew and there is no proof Hitler ever ordered the genocide of jews"? I'm thinking forever.

lol you guys do realize that I am not offended by you calling me a Jew. I don't think there's anything wrong with Jews, other than they look a little inbred, and when I asked for evidence of widespread Jewish animus towards white people you provided nothing, It seems a senseless position as Ashk Jews are 50% white already and based on breeding patterns most will be 80-90% white within a few generations and effectively cease to exist

As for HItler order, yes there is evidence, much more than of him ordering 'resettlement' as you guys see it

EG from Eichmann's pre-capture Argentina papers, as published in "Ich, Adolf Eichmann" by German far right revisionist leaning publisher Druffel Verlag, and authenticated by David Irving and Eichmann's widow

Though he thought there was no 'written Hitler order', authority here fell to Himmler and Heydrich to carry out the task.

--

@Rapechu

I am not even concerned with evidence at this point, just trying to get a handle on your assertions. Is it fair to say:

2-3 million non-working Jews resettled in Russia-- majority of Jews sent there from Western Europe/Poland were considered non-working, and we can probably say the same for the Jews resettled from liquidated Russian ghettos. Therefore they would generally not be subject to hard labor and likely put into internment camps of some sort

Resettlement was kept top secret due to various security/military concerns starting in 1942, which is why there's virtually no German documents here

 

[Bonesjones]

I am not even concerned with evidence at this point,

Hey look the quiet part out loud. And none of that is a direct written order from Hitler, so keep lying.

Also no one cares if you are Jewish, its your adamant refusal to admit it is just another layer of your lack of integrity, your dishonesty, and your refusal to do anything but manipulate and live in bad faith.

 

[Rapechu]

lol you guys do realize that I am not offended by you calling me a Jew. I don't think there's anything wrong with Jews, other than they look a little inbred, and when I asked for evidence of widespread Jewish animus towards white people you provided nothing, It seems a senseless position as Ashk Jews are 50% white already and based on breeding patterns most will be 80-90% white within a few generations and effectively cease to exist

As for HItler order, yes there is evidence, much more than of him ordering 'resettlement' as you guys see it

EG from Eichmann's pre-capture Argentina papers, as published in "Ich, Adolf Eichmann" by German far right revisionist leaning publisher Druffel Verlag, and authenticated by David Irving and Eichmann's widow

View attachment 2787443
View attachment 2787444

Though he thought there was no 'written Hitler order', authority here fell to Himmler and Heydrich to carry out the task.

View attachment 2787463
View attachment 2787466

The Eichmann memoirs contain fraudulent information. The date given in the memoirs for Hitler's orders to kill all the jews was July 1941, which is rejected by mainstream scholars as being the start date of the holocaust. In fact, there are many conspicuous errors in the memoirs, which throw the whole thing into doubt, like gas chambers being used in 1941, which is also rejected by mainstream scholars.

In fact, the total lack of evidence of Hitler's involvement has led to an entire schism in mainstream holocaust history, between functionalists and intentionalists.

@Rapechu

I am not even concerned with evidence at this point, just trying to get a handle on your assertions. Is it fair to say:

2-3 million non-working Jews resettled in Russia

I can't speak for the exact number, but we can find direct evidence of at least several hundred thousand being used to do drainage work. (So not being gassed). It is likely that there were probably several times this, who were involved in other work.

This includes not just Russia, but Belarus, the Baltics, Ukraine, and also Romania/Transnistria (there are records of thousands of jews from west/central Europe being transported into Romanian custody as well). Also Poland (jews were sometimes sent westward as well from bordering territories, I have testimonies which attest to this as well).

-- majority of Jews sent there from Western Europe/Poland were considered non-working, and we can probably say the same for the Jews resettled from liquidated Russian ghettos. Therefore they would generally not be subject to hard labor and likely put into internment camps of some sort

I think the ultimate goal was to place all of them in an internment camp somewhere east of Poland, but in implementation, the ghettoes were not fully liquidated, and jews arriving east were testified to sometimes be placed in ghettoes, even in 1943.

Resettlement was kept top secret due to various security/military concerns starting in 1942, which is why there's virtually no German documents here

Yes, we can find testimony of Germans destroying these records

This testimony is something I stumbled upon just today, which seems to corroborate this idea

My older brother Shmil remained in the camp. To his wife managed to escape and get to Mogilev, and he with two children stayed in the camp. He does not have money or valuables for ransom was, and yet, promising to pay at the place of arrival, he managed persuade the guide and, together with other prisoners, got out with two babies in her arms from the camp. It was in winter, almost Without clothing. First one child freezes, the ground is frozen, it is impossible to bury, everyone is urged to move faster, Shmil leaves the child right in the forest. All behind the first the second child freezes. The same story. Reaching Mogilev, Shmil learns that his wife and son were taken to camp Ananiev, which is near Odessa. After liberation, they met in Mogilev, having lost two children frozen. Riva until her release she remained in Dzigovka. Pesya survived spent the whole war underground in the village of Kapisterna near relatives of the husband. Until my release, I remained in in the Mogilev ghetto, wandered, slept where necessary.
-Maurice Bronstein "Loop"

This is actually very interesting to me for a couple reasons:
1. The Mogilev ghetto existed until liberation by soviets (so it was never liquidated)
2. There is a camp here named Camp Ananiev in Reichskommissariat Ukraine territory, where a woman and child were placed, and they survived until liberation by soviets. I literally cannot find any information about this camp or any other camps in the region. It seems to be completely undocumented.

 

[Rapechu]

Just found this:

Dzhurin

Most information was taken from this book. Djurin (Polish, Yiddish & Hebrew), Джурин (Ukrainian), Джурин - Dzhurin (Russian) Dzhurin (old names Churylov, Churintsy, Dzhurilov) - village in Shargorod region, Vinnytsia oblast, before 1923 it was a shtetl of Yampol yezd, Podolsk province. The...

jewua.org

After establishment of the Romanian regime in Dzhurin was created a Jewish ghetto. It was created in the Jewish homes which were standing on a hill. In Dzhurin ghetto were deported about 3,500 Jews from Bukovina, Romania (from Rădăuţi), Hotyn and neighboring shtetls of Bessarabia. Among the settlers was Rabbi Baruh Gager from “Vizhnitsa” Tzaddikim Dynasty and his Chassidim. According to the order of local Rabbi Herschel Koralnik local Jews settled deported people to their homes and about 1000 people were settled in the building of Great Synagogue, barns and warehouses.

About 120 families of Bukovina Jews were able to settle outside ghetto due to bribes for occupation superiors.

[...]
There was created Jew police of 20 people, court, hospital, pharmacy, dining room for the poor and an orphanage for 50 orphans was founded by Rabbi Gager. Hospital was led by qualified doctors (Romanian Jews) and they significantly reduced deaths from typhus epidemic in ghetto (up to 400 Jews died).
[...]

In 1943 Dzhurin ghetto were 4000 Jews (around 1000 were local Jews). During the war in Dzhurin ghetto died about 500 people – smallest number of victims among the ghettos in Transnistria. Red Army liberated Dzhurin at March 19, 1944.

The ghetto was massively expanded in size from its original population through resettlement, from 1000 to 4000, (with 500 deaths, 400 of which due to Typhus); plus 120 entire families were able to settle outside the ghetto via bribes.

There are in fact many such camps and ghettoes in Transnistria alone under joint German-Romanian authority. I can find evidence of tens of thousands of settlers sent here, at the bare minimum, from scattered documents I have seen here and there. This is estimated as something like 410,000 jews according to mainstream historians.

EDIT: Though the mainstream historians claim that the jews were sent here to be exterminated when it was clearly not the case. Jews may have died here from starvation and epidemics, but not as a result of a planned genocide, and in fact, Transnistria is the best example of a blatantly obvious, completely legitimate resettlement effort.

 

[Chugger]

@Rapechu

The Eichmann memoirs contain fraudulent information. The date given in the memoirs for Hitler's orders to kill all the jews was July 1941, which is rejected by mainstream scholars as being the start date of the holocaust. In fact, there are many conspicuous errors in the memoirs, which throw the whole thing into doubt, like gas chambers being used in 1941, which is also rejected by mainstream scholars.

My copy (from Scribd) says

the original German published by Nazi friendly Druffel Verlag in 1980 (before Holocaust censorship laws came into effect) can be found here https://1lib.us/book/2865879/fa01cd if you want to take a look

I'd be interested to see your sources here, though perhaps in a little while after we finish talking about resettlement

----

So would it be fair to say your major assertions that contradict mainstream historiography are

a) resettlement of 2 million plus non-working Jews from all over Europe and USSR in internment camps and ghettos in "Russia" during 42/43

b) " direct evidence of at least several hundred thousand being used to do drainage work" (in Russia? I believe this contradicts)

c) Resettlement was kept top secret due to various security/military concerns starting in 1942, which is why there's virtually no German documents here

 

[Chiang Kai-shek]

Imagine denying Hitler’s greatest (and only) achievement.

 

[Rapechu]

@Rapechu

My copy (from Scribd) says

View attachment 2788008

the original German published by Nazi friendly Druffel Verlag in 1980 (before Holocaust censorship laws came into effect) can be found here https://1lib.us/book/2865879/fa01cd if you want to take a look

I'd be interested to see your sources here, though perhaps in a little while after we finish talking about resettlement

The Trial of Adolf Eichmann - Eichmann Timeline - The Holocaust History - A People's and Survivor History - Remember.org

Return to“In His Own Words” Return toClassroomActivities NOTE:Visit theEichmannPhotoGallery Eichmann Timeline March 19, 1906 – Adolf Eichmann is born in Solingen, Germany. His family moves to Linz, Austria during W.W.I. Young Eichmann with his classmates. (Click on thumbnail image for...

remember.org

June 1941 – Germany attacks Russia. Four units of Einsatzgruppen consisting of 400 to 500 men each are deployed as mobile killing units in the Soviet Union.
June 1941 – Mass exterminations begin in Rumania. Those Jews not exterminated are transported to Transnistria.
July 1941 – Goring appoints Heydrich to organize the Final Solution to the Jewish Question in addition to heading the Central Office for Jewish Emigration.
Sept. 13, 1941 – Eichmann contacts Foreign Ministry advisor Rademacher regarding 8,000 Jewish men from Serbia. Unable to find a location where the Jews can be settled, Eichmann proposes “to kill them by shooting.”

I have something to add about the personality of Eichmann: he was extremely naive. For example, when Eichmann is asked a question about the gas chambers he doesn't say "gas chambers," he says, "Oh yeah, Höss told me about the murder installations," things like that. And then he says, "Now, wait a minute. I don't remember the circumstances. Maybe I read that, or maybe somebody told me that... this is possible." He was very impressionable, the poor man, even before being taken to Jerusalem. He was impressed by Poliakov and all those stupid people.

A: You're right; the character of Eichmann is very important. He was pliable, he was easily impressed, he was complacent, and anxious to please.

Too late, the Jewish community realized that they had scored an immense "own goal" (what Americans call a "fumble"), because the phone then began ringing with calls from television and radio stations around the world, wanting live interviews and telephone interviews. Would I go to the studios to do a satellite interview with Sydney? And of course, every time I did I said, "Well, Eichmann says he witnessed mass shootings in Russia, but Eichmann's papers are quite plain: there's no mention at all of gas chambers." So I was able to get the message across.

The Suppressed Eichmann and Goebbels Papers | CODOH

codoh.com

Eichmann appeared to be senile. He seems like he is having trouble remembering crucial elements, like what really happened versus what he read or what someone uninvolved said to him, and whether there were gas chambers or not.

So would it be fair to say your major assertions that contradict mainstream historiography are

a) resettlement of 2 million plus non-working Jews from all over Europe and USSR in internment camps and ghettos in "Russia" during 42/43

I can't attest to the exact numbers, but what I am saying in general is that people who were sent to occupied territory were not necessarily killed, and in fact were often sent to ghettoes and forced labor camps and internment camps, and that women and children DID survive these camps, but with a high death toll from disease and malnutrition and other poor conditions. Also that ghettoes were not fully liquidated as the Germans had planned. In fact, from the link I just posted, it sounds like people could easily bribe their way out of them, in absurdly large numbers even, and live normal lives outside of the jewish internment system altogether.

b) " direct evidence of at least several hundred thousand being used to do drainage work" (in Russia? I believe this contradicts)

There seems to be evidence of a very large scale engineering project going on in Reichskommissariat Ukraine, using jewish forced labor, as attested by Swiss sources.

c) Resettlement was kept top secret due to various security/military concerns starting in 1942, which is why there's virtually no German documents here

In certain places, like Transnistria, we can see pretty transparently that there was a resettlement going on here, yet this is wrongfully attested to be an extermination site. In other places in the occupied territories, we can see evidence that jews are kept in places which don't seem to be extermination sites, yet information on these places appears to be suppressed. It seems that the further east we go, the more suppressed the information is, either by the Germans, or the Soviets, or both. The Germans may have suppressed it in war time for security, and the Soviets, in peace time, for propaganda. In the interviews I read of "The Loop", it was mentioned that all interviews were done through a "prisoner's association", in a specific building set aside for this purpose. The book was written under the communist era, so it is entirely possible that this "prisoner's association" existed to ensure that only selected testimonies were published.

 

[Oglooger]

I believe in the holocaust

Imagine believing so much in the holocaust that it's the only thread you post in

 

[Johan Schmidt]

Imagine denying Hitler’s greatest (and only) achievement.

Chang Kai-shel? Bro you're still around? I thought Mao got rid of you, how have you been?

 

[Chugger]

@Rapechu

"Eichmann appeared to be senile. He seems like he is having trouble remembering crucial elements, like what really happened versus what he read or what someone uninvolved said to him, and whether there were gas chambers or not."

Yeah I've heard these arguments, that he was going senile (at age 50) or prepping for his legal defense or just a wacko. I guess it's all possible. He does mention gas chambers btw: "I was not a little surprised that he had built little houses, hermetically closed, and he said to me: “The Jews are gassed here now”. But let's table this. Eichmann's Argentina material is part of my "interesting holocaust documents" list.

"I can't attest to the exact numbers"

I mean neither can I, it's tough business. But German records (Hofle telegram and Korherr report) show 1.3 million Polish Jews mostly not fit for work coming through the Reinhardt camps by end of 1942 given special treatment/or sent into "the Russian East", and there were still more to come. Another several hundred thousand through the Chelmno "transit camp" according to revisionists. And still hundreds of thousands of more "unable to work" Jews (from places like Germany/France/Netherlands/Austria/Czechoslovakia) who went unregistered at Auschwitz and were apparently sent east

Mattogno:

"Also that ghettoes were not fully liquidated as the Germans had planned."

You're right, ghettos were not always 100% liquidated, but I would challenge you to show me a German administered major ghetto in the USSR that wasn't virtually completely dissolved by 1943, according to all available records

I can name ghettos at Pinsk, Minsk, Slutsk, Brest Litovsk, Grodno, Wilno, Riga, Tarnopol, Lvov, Luck that were 100% liquidated or very close, with German sources attesting to this. That's maybe half a million people right there. I haven't done the math but just Minsk + Lvov is 220k

Here's Lvov ghetto, a place I'm sure most people have never heard of

and the ghetto was completely dissolved by mid 1943 (I am not presenting this as holocaust evidence btw)

I could keep going with smaller ghettos. But it's clear that when all were dissolved, the high non-working portion must have been taken somewhere (whether to internment camps, or perhaps other smaller ghettos).

So I think my figure of 2 million overall during 42/43 is a super conservative estimate (I'd put the number of "disappeared" non-working Jews over this period at well over 3 million). However again, I don't care too much about exact figures, there can be a lot of leeway with these numbers.

What's important for everyone to know is that we're talking about a hell of a lot of people, at least an order of magnitude above what happened w/ Japanese internment
---

I'm trying to understand what exactly you're arguing in order to evaluate how well the evidence you've provided supports this

I could give you a concise assertion pretty easily
eg, mass resettlement in 42-44 never happened. Instead roughly 4 million Jews (mostly deemed non-employable) were killed using bullets or poison gas starting in the summer of 41

So I don't see what the problem is. Can you make corrections to my short list in order for us to be able to move ahead here?

a) mass resettlement of some millions of non-working Jews from all over Europe and USSR in internment camps and ghettos in "Russia" during 42/43 (where they were not killed)

b) " large scale engineering project (of at least several hundred thousand) going on in Reichskommissariat Ukraine, using jewish forced labor, as attested by Swiss sources.

c) Resettlement was kept top secret due to various security/military concerns starting in 1942 by the Germans, and also evidence was destroyed by the Soviets, which explains the virtual absence of German documents concerning resettlement

After this you can suggest a piece of evidence for me to start looking at (since you've posted so many) or I'll pick one myself.

 

[Rapechu]

After this you can suggest a piece of evidence for me to start looking at (since you've posted so many) or I'll pick one myself.

Actually, would you be able to look into this Camp Ananiev that I mentioned earlier? Not because I feel like it is my best piece of evidence, but rather because it is fascinatingly mysterious.

EHRI - Ananiev concentration camp

The European Holocaust Research Infrastructure Online Portal

portal.ehri-project.eu

A jewish woman and her son were captured after fleeing from an internment camp in Transnistria and were taken to "Camp Ananiev" where they survived until liberation by soviets in 1944

I can find a reference to Ananiev in "Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945", but it gives this unsatisfying entry:

"Jews from the ghettos in Moghilev-Podolsk (Moghilev
judeţ) and Balta (Balta judeţ) were relocated to the state-owned
collective farms (kolkhozes) in the Ananiev jude ţ in the spring
of 1943 to do forced labor. In June 1943, 521 Jews were work -
ing on those farms.7 They lived in poor and unsanitary condi-
tions in camps that were usually made up of dilapidated sta -
bles or barracks on the farms’ premises. Although the camps
were only lightly guarded by gendarmes from the post closest
to the respective farms

[...]

Some of them were elderly or children, others were sick, and most lacked ag-
ricultural training. In August 1943, Prefect Bolintineanu
noted the existence of typhus among them and complained re-
peatedly to government officials in Odessa about their physi -
cal appearance—they were dressed in rags and lacked shoes—
and their weakness in the face of the demanding fieldwork
required of them. He requested that the Jewish workers be re-
placed by Soviet prisoners of war (POWs). Soviet POWs
were not sent to replace them, so the Jewish laborers contin -
ued to farm the land. However, the sick, elderly, and the young
Jews were returned to the ghettos from which they came; 14
of the Jewish workers became accountants for general stores
in the Ananiev judeţ. Thus, in September 1943, there were only
31 Jews in the entire Ananiev jude ţ, as follows: 2 Jews in the
town of Ananiev, 3 in Petroverovca village, 1 in Saraevo vil -
lage, 2 in Cernova village, 2 in Ho ţului village, 1 in Troi ţca
village, 17 on the Arva farm, 1 on the Filip farm, and 2 on the
Regina Maria farm.9 Two months later, on November 15, 1943,
their number had decreased to 13 Jews for the entire jude ţ
(one from Bukovina, five from Bessarabia, and seven from
Dorohoi).10
"

No mention of an internment camp at all, only a collective farm, which was dissolved and in fact, the entire district was CLAIMED to have only 13 jews by 1943.

This seems... not right...

 

[Rapechu]

I also wanted to point out, that this encyclopedia does say that there were children and elderly in the collective farm until 1943 (at which point they were sent back to the ghettoes to recuperate, they weren't killed), so this answers the question of what happened to the sick, to children and elderly: they were generally sent to the same places the able-bodied men were. It seems that there was almost no guard presence (just a single guard post for each farm), so people weren't being micromanaged by the guards and whipped if they couldn't work, this was more or less just a crappy little village that people weren't allowed to leave.

Actually from the looks of everything I've read in Transnistria, this was just an innocent, but extremely stupid attempt at forcing city-dwellers to bootstrap an entire agricultural industry. I wonder if the Axis could have won WW2 if they weren't engaged in this autistic little project. Instead of sending reinforcements and weapons to the front, they tried to create little jewish villages outside of Europe, and the villages all died out, the Wehrmacht was defeated, and they were accused of genocide because of what a shitty attempt at resettlement this all was.

 

[potato in mah painus]

Hey look the quiet part out loud. And none of that is a direct written order from Hitler, so keep lying.

Also no one cares if you are Jewish, its your adamant refusal to admit it is just another layer of your lack of integrity, your dishonesty, and your refusal to do anything but manipulate and live in bad faith.

Want to know what is funny? Seeing Chugger get in debates and people rebutting with their own belief backed by evidence.

Nice to know the media and governments gaslit and lied as heavily as they do today, as the sham of the Nurenburg trials show. I didn't know this before and happy to know it now.

Nice to know that a lot of the "final solution" orders were goalpost moving on what resettlement means. The fact the word is used in ways that would contradict orders and sow confusion pointed out in many circumstances.

Chugger probably came into this thread as a paid shill to shut down debate, instead he sparked one of the best debates on the web on why the holocaust in the books is complete bullshit. Thank you for bringing out the best minds here on the topic, I will cite this thread to help bring more skeptics on the topic into the world.

 

[Bonesjones]

Want to know what is funny? Seeing Chugger get in debates and people rebutting with their own belief backed by evidence.

Nice to know the media and governments gaslit and lied as heavily as they do today, as the sham of the Nurenburg trials show. I didn't know this before and happy to know it now.

Nice to know that a lot of the "final solution" orders were goalpost moving on what resettlement means. The fact the word is used in ways that would contradict orders and sow confusion pointed out in many circumstances.

Chugger probably came into this thread as a paid shill to shut down debate, instead he sparked one of the best debates on the web on why the holocaust in the books is complete bullshit. Thank you for bringing out the best minds here on the topic, I will cite this thread to help bring more skeptics on the topic into the world.

Its funny because I didn't even know the Codoh forum existed and he admitted to posting there and they do a better job of refuting everything than even rapechu does.

Its always sad when someone can't say "no proof Hitler ordered the genocide of jews exists" or "I don't know if evidence of it actually exists only these people who were either tangentially involved or were forced to say it through torture".

The only thing he's done is find holes we couldn't immediately explain where we did the research and found out yet again he's just lying through omission at best.

Pointing out how detestable someone is to their face is one of the best things in life.

 

[Chugger]

@Bonesjones I didn't start addressing Rapechu's evidence until now. You may take that as a victory I guess. It also should be said that I pointed Rapechu to the Thomas Kues series from where has derived most of this evidence, so I was familiar with it.

Actually, would you be able to look into this Camp Ananiev that I mentioned earlier? Not because I feel like it is my best piece of evidence, but rather because it is fascinatingly mysterious.

EHRI - Ananiev concentration camp

The European Holocaust Research Infrastructure Online Portal

portal.ehri-project.eu

A jewish woman and her son were captured after fleeing from an internment camp in Transnistria and were taken to "Camp Ananiev" where they survived until liberation by soviets in 1944

I can find a reference to Ananiev in "Encyclopedia of Camps and Ghettos, 1933-1945", but it gives this unsatisfying entry:


No mention of an internment camp at all, only a collective farm, which was dissolved and in fact, the entire district was CLAIMED to have only 13 jews by 1943.

This seems... not right...

So the reference in question from you is here

My older brother Shmil remained in the camp. To his wife managed to escape and get to Mogilev, and he with two children stayed in the camp. He does not have money or valuables for ransom was, and yet, promising to pay at the place of arrival, he managed persuade the guide and, together with other prisoners, got out with two babies in her arms from the camp. It was in winter, almost Without clothing. First one child freezes, the ground is frozen, it is impossible to bury, everyone is urged to move faster, Shmil leaves the child right in the forest. All behind the first the second child freezes. The same story. Reaching Mogilev, Shmil learns that his wife and son were taken to camp Ananiev, which is near Odessa. After liberation, they met in Mogilev, having lost two children frozen. Riva until her release she remained in Dzigovka. Pesya survived spent the whole war underground in the village of Kapisterna near relatives of the husband. Until my release, I remained in in the Mogilev ghetto, wandered, slept where necessary. Mama not allowed to come to the hospital, only tried to get and brought me food.
-Maurice Bronstein "Loop"

The account as relayed here is a little difficult to make sense of. He says Shmil had two children and "lost two children frozen" so it's not clear if any survived.

What is camp Ananiev? Ananiev was a district in the Romanian governed territory of Transnistria. Basically the Germans went through in 1941, defeated the Soviets there, and handed it off to their allies. So all discussion of this territory comes with this proviso, the Germans were not in charge

I wasn't familiar with the area, so actually started reading about it last night. https://1lib.us/book/4962624/e6b625?dsource=recommend

It contains interesting tables such as these

Yes, they tracked the amount of Jews in the area, even specific counts of children.

They also tracked the population of this area over time.

So Ananiev is a district name, which may have held a few camps or collective farms where Shmil's wife stayed with her son, who may have been old enough to work. We don't know because these details aren't given. It's possible some charitable Romanians also took care of him.

From Wikipedia:

Antonescu's government also made plans for mass deportations of the Romanian Jews community from the rest of the country (the Regat and southern Transylvania), numbering 292,149 people (according to a May 1942 census), to Transnistria region, or, in collaboration with the German government, to the Belzec extermination camp, but these had never been carried out.[13]

The change in policy toward the Jews began in October 1942, and by March–April 1943, Antonescu permanently stopped all deportations despite German pressure,[66] as he began to seek peace with the Allies, although at the same time he levied heavy taxes and forced labor on the remaining Jewish communities. Also, sometimes with the encouragement of Antonescu's regime, thirteen boats left Romania for the British Mandate of Palestine during the war, carrying 13,000 Jews (two of these ships were sunk by the Soviets (see Struma disaster), and the effort was discontinued after German pressure was applied).

Discussions regarding the repatriation of deported Jews followed, and in January 1943, the leader of the Romanian-Jewish community Wilhelm Filderman began talks with the Romanian government in order to start repatriating Romanian Jews deported to Transnistria. On November 15, 1943, an official report of the Romanian government indicated that 49,927 Romanian Jews were alive in Transnistria (of which 6,425 were originally from the Regat). In December 1943, partial repatriation began, and in March 1944, Antonescu government ordered general repatriation for all Romanian Jews deportees from Transnistria. Between December 20, 1943 and March 30, 1944, almost 11,000 people (including orphans) were repatriated from different camps and ghettos in Transnistria. However, the decision came too late to organize the repatriation of the last large number of deportees, and the fate of tens of thousands of deportees remaining in Transnistria became unknown

Earlier Rapechu said

There are in fact many such camps and ghettoes in Transnistria alone under joint German-Romanian authority. I can find evidence of tens of thousands of settlers sent here, at the bare minimum, from scattered documents I have seen here and there. This is estimated as something like 410,000 jews according to mainstream historians.

EDIT: Though the mainstream historians claim that the jews were sent here to be exterminated when it was clearly not the case. Jews may have died here from starvation and epidemics, but not as a result of a planned genocide, and in fact, Transnistria is the best example of a blatantly obvious, completely legitimate resettlement effort.

He may have been intimating that Transnistria was something of a resettlement hub where Jews were sent from all over Europe like France. Kues and revisionists have made this argument. If 410,000 were sent here most of them died, or were deported elsewhere.

Yet despite all of this I have to agree with Rapechu that Transnistria, a small area between Romania and German controlled Ukraine, is the best example of a mass resettlement of Jews in Eastern Europe. If you're looking for a concession, here it is. The Romanians did not kill all the Jews in this area after the Germans had left. Rather they let them starve to death and die by disease in fields, caves, and ghettos.

They did not have the ideological commitment to mass slaughter people who clearly posed no threat to them, and so 50,000 lucky Jews survived, among them Shmil and his wife, and 1 of 3 children. But what of the millions of Jews transited into German controlled territory, or dealt with in some way after the mass liquidation of ghettos there during 42/43?

 

[Chugger]

I also wanted to point out, that this encyclopedia does say that there were children and elderly in the collective farm until 1943 (at which point they were sent back to the ghettoes to recuperate, they weren't killed), so this answers the question of what happened to the sick, to children and elderly: they were generally sent to the same places the able-bodied men were. It seems that there was almost no guard presence (just a single guard post for each farm), so people weren't being micromanaged by the guards and whipped if they couldn't work, this was more or less just a crappy little village that people weren't allowed to leave.

Actually from the looks of everything I've read in Transnistria, this was just an innocent, but extremely stupid attempt at forcing city-dwellers to bootstrap an entire agricultural industry. I wonder if the Axis could have won WW2 if they weren't engaged in this autistic little project. Instead of sending reinforcements and weapons to the front, they tried to create little jewish villages outside of Europe, and the villages all died out, the Wehrmacht was defeated, and they were accused of genocide because of what a shitty attempt at resettlement this all was.

To clear up your concern here, German policy and Romanian policy were different. This area was not jointly controlled, but administered by the Romanian government, whose Jewish policy was not as a rule homicidal (though they were pushed by Germany in this direction). From what I've read they basically dumped a bunch of Jews in this area and left them to their own devices, though like you said, it's gonna be tough for an urban population to adjust in this setting and there was food scarcity so many died.

The Germans on the other hand would hardly stand for Jews loitering about, they viewed these poor beggars and families as grave threats and sequestered them until liquidation. Romanian policy seems to be what most deniers imagine happened to the Jews in German controlled USSR, which was the vast majority of occupied USSR in terms of land.

You cannot use Romanian policy to prove German policy.

 

[Bonesjones]

Hey look another 2000 words from Chugger that isn't posting proof of direct orders of Hitler ordering the holocaust. How suprising.

 

[Rapechu]

From the testimonies I read, it does seem like Transnistria is jointly occupied between Germans and Romanians, as there are frequent mentions of German guards and police, and the region was never formally annexed into Romania; but I'll accept anyways that the Romanians had control here and may have had a different policy from the Germans. This also explains why the records are so good for this place and so shitty everywhere else in the occupied USSR. If the Germans recorded things better we may not be sitting here discussing this and it may have been an open-shut case like Transnistria.

At any rate, I can pull a couple of things away from this:

1. I didn't even know jews were settled in Transnistria until this thread. This just shows how vast and how backwater eastern Europe is, that entire cities-worth of people can vanish from public consciousness into the armpit of the world. East of Transnistria is only vaster and more backwater, and it is easy to believe that entire settlements could vanish from memory here without a large paper trail to track them by.

2. That a benign, but badly-planned resettlement during a war can result in death rates of something like 7/8 across a region, even without an organized policy of systematic genocide.

3. If we accept that jews from all across Europe were sent to Transnistria to be resettled by Romania, and the official estimates are 410,000 jews wrongfully claimed to have been genocided here, (and perhaps there are more which were undocumented, Camp Ananiev remains a mystery), then we have already accounted for some 1/4 of the resettled jews. If we take into account the 200,000-300,000 jewish workers doing drainage work, which are attested to multiple times, and the maybe 100,000 or so settled in the Baltic, then that accounts for roughly 1/2 of the missing people. So this is just what I can find from what are basically trace notes of something which is not widely known to exist. Taken together they seem to tell a story. I doubt I will ever be able to account for 100% of the missing people because there is an inherent contradiction involved, in attempting to prove that mainstream historiography is wrong, using only sources cited by mainstream historiography. Perhaps if I were a professional historian, I would be able to do deep diving, reading through obscure testimonies and finding names of places like Ananiev, and piece together a narrative; but I am neither qualified, nor paid to do this, so I am content that I can at least account for some half of the missing people.

I also wanted to mention that the more reading I did, the more I would find tidbits of things I found strange... prisoner's associations in communist countries which controlled whose testimonies were given... camps which did not officially exist... and so on. I have barely even scratched the surface and just by looking under a few rocks I can see things that illustrate that my skepticism is well-founded.

 

[Bonesjones]

You mean to say that the holocaust narrative was invented wholesale by the allies who suppressed all obvious information it didn't happen but by connecting the dots between minor and seemingly unrelated pieces of information you can understand the real story?

Next you'll tell me that the communists were the real devils in the past century and the only reason they aren't more demonized is the propaganda of international jewry.

 

[Lemmingwise]

they tried to create little jewish villages outside of Europe, and the villages all died out, the Wehrmacht was defeated, and they were accused of genocide because of what a shitty attempt at resettlement this all was

Assuming that's true, that's remarkedly comparable to mao zedong's great leap forward (the (un?)intentional genocide by starvation of millions as a result of radical farming organisation ideas).