The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

I’m sorry, what argument have you put forward?

Back to my original question, which first hand accounts of the Holocaust am I allowed to believe or doubt?

This isn't about any arguments I have made (which I have: to whit, that you are being deliberately fallacious by representing the story of a proven fraud and using it to imply that all first-hand accounts of the Holocaust are forgeries): this is about your lack thereof. You said:

Please tell me more about my post history, seems you triggered libtards can’t help yourselves when coming up against someone whose argument you don’t like.

The fact you cannot go two posts without trying to engage in cheap rhetorical tactics in an effort to "win" this argument, and completely ignore my own points, shows that this is not a discussion; it barely qualifies as a form of communication. Trying to talk to you about the Holocaust is a futile effort, and apparently trying to discuss why you dislike the Big Noses in the first place is as well.

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

David Cole's 46 unanswered questions about the gas chambers is still worth a read for anyone interested :

http://vho.org/GB/c/DC/gc46-ORIGI.html

Here was the well thought out rebuttal from the Jewish Defence league

David Cole: Monstrous Traitor

The final sentence is a real kicker-

"Reward for Information
JDL wants to know the location of Holocaust denier David Cole, pictured above. Anyone giving us his correct address will receive a monetary reward. Contact us through e-mail immediately if you have information leading to the current location of David Cole."

 

[Cardenio]

I’m sorry, what argument have you put forward?

Back to my original question, which first hand accounts of the Holocaust am I allowed to believe or doubt?

You're supposed to take them as victims who survived a massive traumatic experience and are sharing how they remembered it. This does not mean that their memories aren't prone to errors because the fact is human memory is insanely faulty. Nor does it mean that they aren't incapable of exaggeration or straight up lying. If someone tells you a riveting tale where they showed some heroics or sacrifice there's always the chance that they remembered it in a way that made their actions more heroic than it truly was. For them they're not neccesarily "lying" because this new more impressive story overwrote the actual events in their minds.

Memories are like paintings, and with time they're inevitably altered. Unless there are multiple witnesses with identical accounts one can always consider the possibility that the person's accounts have been warped. I cannot tell you what to believe, but I feel the warped accounts like the "Holocoaster" don't mean that all survivor accounts are prone to infeasible falsehoods.

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

Memories are like paintings, and with time they're inevitably altered. Unless there are multiple witnesses with identical accounts one can always consider the possibility that the person's accounts have been warped. I cannot tell you what to believe, but I feel the warped accounts like the "Holocoaster" don't mean that all survivor accounts are prone to infeasible falsehoods.

I agree, as Nobel Prize winner and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel reminded us "Some stories are true that never happened"

So all i'm asking is where's the middle ground? Can you doubt and mock the utterly ridiculous accounts without being prosecuted or labelled a complete denier and a Nazi?

For example, Spielberg's Oscar winning 'The Last Days', where he had access to the largest collection of survivor interviews (apparently 50,000 +) of anyone on earth. Yet even Spielberg couldn't find people telling the truth (Irene Zisblatt, LOL).

Free Your Mind

Spielberg's Hoax - The Last Days of The Big Lie

www.bitchute.com

Eric Hunt's documentary about it (It's 2 hours, I don't expect anyone to watch it and i'm not a big fan of some of his narrative decisions).

Or Academy Award nominated - Liberators: Fighting on Two Fronts in World War II . Telling the tale of the role played by the 761st Tank Battalion in freeing the prisoners of Dachau and Buchenwald.

Which ended up having to be withdrawn because it was so full of shit.
After an intensive examination of Army records and interviews with military historians, Holocaust experts, [and] World War II veterans including black soldiers whose lives were depicted in "Liberators," the Guardian has learned that the most celebrated facts of "Liberators" are not true. Neither soldiers of the 761st All Black Tank Battalion nor the soldiers of the 183rd Black Combat Engineers ever liberated Buchenwald or Dachau.

So now we have unreliable testimony from not just Jewish survivors but also the Allied soldiers.

 

[Lemmingwise]

As someone who was going into school for History & Archeology, I tend to ignore Holocaust deniers, for one simple reason: They hate a group so much that they're willing to deny that event never happened, just so they can get another crack at it. And this applies to any group, regardless if group is of ethnicity or political. They're willing to ignore primary and secondary sources of history just to validate their bloodlust and honestly, it's gross

Why did David Cole hate jews so much?

It's back to the circular argument. People with reservations are evil and they're evil because they have reservations.

If you voiced your reservations or questions about a topic that you had to pay into through government... and you were attacked for being hateful for asking those questions and there was a constant parade in both news and movies, you might develop a dislike for the people responsible of exagerating a terrible event into being the worst event ever. Especially if they don't give a single damn about comparable events.

That dislike is easily interpreted as hatred.

So now we have unreliable testimony from not just Trump's Chosen survivors but also the Allied soldiers.

We had unreliable allied testimony in this very thread. Of course some error is expected when filtered through stories told to a grandson.

 

[Rice Is Ready]

There were 3 concurrent stories the Chosen were running with during WW2. Gas chambers, giant fire pits or electrocution chambers.

The one that stuck was the gas chambers. Unfortunately for people like Elie Wiesel he bet on the pits of fire story. So we have his account of being at Auschwitz and Buchenwald without a mention of gas chambers. Not even one!

My personal favorite is the totally legit and lethal bear and eagle tag team combo.

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

My personal favorite is the totally legit and lethal bear and eagle tag team combo.

View attachment 1255120

That’s ok, it might have been real in his mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Rosenblat

 

[Emperor Julian]

As someone who was going into school for History & Archeology, I tend to ignore Holocaust deniers, for one simple reason: They hate a group so much that they're willing to deny that event never happened, just so they can get another crack at it. And this applies to any group, regardless if group is of ethnicity or political. They're willing to ignore primary and secondary sources of history just to validate their bloodlust and honestly, it's gross

Their is some limited advantage to argueing with Holocaust deniers at a sophomore level, I used to do it as a mental equivalant of a light jog since it gets you used to noticing basic fallacies and resoarce anaylsis in preparation for more difficult or ambigious debates.

I mean pretty much every arguement here is embarissingly bad and easy to debunk if you have anything beyond a D in High school history so it's a nice warm up for actual historical debates such as Functionalism vs intentualism or say the cause of the downfall of the indus valley civilization.

 

[Cardenio]

I agree, as Nobel Prize winner and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel reminded us "Some stories are true that never happened"

So all i'm asking is where's the middle ground? Can you doubt and mock the utterly ridiculous accounts without being prosecuted or labelled a complete denier and a Nazi?

For example, Spielberg's Oscar winning 'The Last Days', where he had access to the largest collection of survivor interviews (apparently 50,000 +) of anyone on earth. Yet even Spielberg couldn't find people telling the truth (Irene Zisblatt, LOL).

Free Your Mind

Spielberg's Hoax - The Last Days of The Big Lie

www.bitchute.com

Eric Hunt's documentary about it (It's 2 hours, I don't expect anyone to watch it and i'm not a big fan of some of his narrative decisions).

Or Academy Award nominated - Liberators: Fighting on Two Fronts in World War II . Telling the tale of the role played by the 761st Tank Battalion in freeing the prisoners of Dachau and Buchenwald.

Which ended up having to be withdrawn because it was so full of shit.
After an intensive examination of Army records and interviews with military historians, Holocaust experts, [and] World War II veterans including black soldiers whose lives were depicted in "Liberators," the Guardian has learned that the most celebrated facts of "Liberators" are not true. Neither soldiers of the 761st All Black Tank Battalion nor the soldiers of the 183rd Black Combat Engineers ever liberated Buchenwald or Dachau.

So now we have unreliable testimony from not just Trump's Chosen survivors but also the Allied soldiers.

I dunno what to tell you man, at the end of the day the "Greatest Genetation" lived tumultuous lives. Having to be children thru the Great Depression and then having to reasonably expect the world to be destoyed thru WW2 would reasonably give any sensible person PTSD and Depression. This would lead to people to coping by abusing substances, or just suffering with mental illness. Which again will lead to people having distorted memories. I cannot go into the heads of those hardened men and women because thankfully we've all been blessed to live in far more comfortable time, albeit times where many seemingly lack noble pursuits in life and economic upward mobility feels somewhat stunted.

As for David Cole I do feel the HD Debunking site HolocaustControveries is filled with solid responses to refute his claims. This lengthy blog also does the time to investigate troubled accounts like Irene Zisblatt. http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2017/06/debunking-david-coles-auschwitz-video.html

Now you seem to come across as being more firm in the belief that said blog will be filled with lies/halftruths since its intended goal is to prove the holocaust and muh 6 million, and if so that's your prerogative. Personally I just think the historical evidence is large enough to prove that horrific shit occured in the camps. If my assumptions are true we ultimately just have to agree to disagree. I'm sadly not getting paid by the JIDF to post here so it's just not worth my freetime to passionately debate this issue. I have to concede you spend far more time researching this then I ever will so my responses will inevitably be me just posting articles I find truthful, which to me comes off as lazy and half assed.

 

[Rice Is Ready]

That’s ok, it might have been real in his mind.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Rosenblat

"Rosenblat later admitted to lying on purpose with the intention of bringing joy."

Oh it's okay. He's just a man who's intentions are good, Oy Vey please don't let him be misunderstood!

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

Now you seem to come across as being more firm in the belief that said blog will be filled with lies/halftruths since its intended goal is to prove the holocaust and muh 6 million

Is it still a Holocaust if there were no gas chambers used to kill people? What if the 6 million was a much lower number?

I believe the Jews were interned and those that could work were made to work. I’m sure they were horrific places to be especially near the end of the war without food and diseases running rampant. Were some murdered by the Nazis without justification, I’m certain they were. There was no systematic gassing though.

But the Nazis weren’t monsters. Look at how they treated French citizens during occupation, now compare that with how the Russians and even the US soldiers treated the German soldiers and women after the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

 

[Cardenio]

Before I make my exit so I can go back to doing what I enjoy on Kiwifarms, make carefree commentary on cows and sperg about geekshit. I'd like to share this passionate critique on the Amazon Drama "Hunters".

Shoah Foundation Director: Amazon Must Cancel 'Hunters'

The genocide expert says Amazon must not renew it for a second season.

jewishjournal.com

For those not in the know Hunters is a very amusing drama about Nazi Hunters. It has the guise of being serious by of course focusing on the Holocaust and the Nazi Hunters. But in reality it's more or less a work of Science-Fiction. It portrays the Nazi Hunters as being more akin to Quentin Tarantino's "Inglorious Bastards" and the Nazis they fight are straight up comic book villains. In it they portray the Holocaust as to having Macabre games of human chess, one secret Nazi when being caught ends up coldly murdering his family and his accuser with a pistol. It's utter popcorn entertainment. The director of a Shoah Foundation loathes the series and demands its cancellation. He contends works like this will lead to more people questioning the whole holocaust reality, that it feeds into the very plausible mindset that such a horrific genocide (as portayed in goofy pop culture) is just too absurd to be true.

Point is any notion that the serious Holocaust Historians aren't also looking to take this history seriously and parse out the mistruths is just wrong. We can hopefully all agree that we want the truth of what happened to be clear. Even the most plausible sympathetic defense of Hitler's Germany that most jews, roma, and political prisoners died because of famine and disease (rather than a direct mass murder) would still very much be a horrific and a revolting crime against humanity.

This is a very interesting thread, and I'm thankful that there's still a place like the Kiwifarms where people can debate this subject without the fear of bannings and censorship. We will not see eye to eye on this @Flynt's Missing Pecker but I'm happy we can discuss this topic like adults. Because the Deniers are right in their mantra "Truth does not fear investigation."

EDIT: I'm slow, hopefully you'll see this reply:

Is it still a Holocaust if there were no gas chambers used to kill people? What if the 6 million was a much lower number?

I believe the Trump's Chosen People were interned and those that could work were made to work. I’m sure they were horrific places to be especially near the end of the war without food and diseases running rampant. Were some murdered by the Nazis without justification, I’m certain they were. There was no systematic gassing though.

But the Nazis weren’t monsters. Look at how they treated French citizens during occupation, now compare that with how the Russians and even the US soldiers treated the German soldiers and women after the war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_Germany

For one thing I do believe the Gas Chambers were true, arguing about this though be a fight of discussing various articles on the subject. I think it's trivial to debate this way because I just don't think any minds will be changed. It'll just be a back and forth "This source says XYZ" and "But what about yadda yadda yadda." Again I personally take the blog https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/ as being closest to an objective truth on the whole subject. I think lead deniers like the IHR and David Irving are ultimately Nazi Sympathizers whose claims cannot be taken as fact. You clearly view it the other way around or see another Denier group as being objective truth. I cannot convince you otherwise no more than you could convince me.

As for Nazis not being monsters. If you're going to take accept Wikipedia's take on how Germans were treated by the allies then I just have to cite their article on the 3rd Reich's War Crimes. They apparently were very rapey too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

As for Nazis not being monsters. If you're going to take accept Wikipedia's take on how Germans were treated by the allies then I just have to cite their article on the 3rd Reich's War Crimes. They apparently were very rapey too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_of_the_Wehrmacht

I would take anything alleged by the Russians with a giant grain of salt. They were covering up their own horrendous crimes and would seize any chance to spread propaganda. There is a reason the only ‘death camps’ supposedly found were the ones liberated by the Russians. They falsified many records, including the ridiculous ‘4 million’ died at Auschwitz and built a giant fake chimney there as well for propaganda purposes.

Now, if you can find accounts of mass rape committed against French women by the Nazis you would have my interest.

 

[CreamyHerman’s]

Is it still a Holocaust if there were no gas chambers used to kill people? What if the 6 million was a much lower number

YES. The Holocaust is the systematic killing of Jewish+other minorities, ethical & political. They didn't just use gas Chambers, they used firing squads, carbon monoxide, starvation and other means to kill as many people as they can in a short amount of time. There are too many first and secondary sources that confirmed this.

Here's some food for thought: you wanna know why it's always been consistently 6 million, not higher or lower? Because they registered people with numbers ON THEIR SKIN WHEN so they don't lose them. Those dead people are on paperwork, to confirm that they are dead.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Here's some food for thought: you wanna know why it's always been consistently 6 million, not higher or lower? Because they registered people with numbers ON THEIR SKIN WHEN so they don't lose them. Those dead people are on paperwork, to confirm that they are dead.

So, given that our records are so good: how many people were deported to the camps, and how many people survived?

 

[CreamyHerman’s]

So, given that our records are so good: how many people were deported to the camps, and how many people survived?

I'm not talking about our records. We don't know how many Holocaust survivors actually survived due to the SS/Nazi's retreating and as a result, they did a assortment of things:

• Destroyed most of their data before the Soviets arrived(good reason too, Soviet soldiers captured by the Wermacht were often handed over to the SS, who tortured/did heinous experiments on them)
• Basically said fuck it and either just killed prisoners or took food and left, leaving survivors to starve
• Or just left, grabbing supplies in order to survive long enough to reach the Western front, fearing Soviet forces.

As a result, some places have complete archives of victims and of what they did to them and their bodies, and other places were completely ransacked/destroyed.

 

[Emperor Julian]

Bottom

I'm not talking about our records. We don't know how many Holocaust survivors actually survived due to the SS/Nazi's retreating and as a result, they did a assortment of things:

• Destroyed most of their data before the Soviets arrived(good reason too, Soviet soldiers captured by the Wermacht were often handed over to the SS, who tortured/did heinous experiments on them)
• Basically said fuck it and either just killed prisoners or took food and left, leaving survivors to starve
• Or just left, grabbing supplies in order to survive long enough to reach the Western front, fearing Soviet forces.

As a result, some places have complete archives of victims and of what they did to them and their bodies, and other places were completely ransacked/destroyed.

Their's also the issue that a the nazi's had an invested interest in keeping the documentation to a minimal for a number of practical reasons.

 

[Flynt's Missing Pecker]

Their's also the issue that a the nazi's had an invested interest in keeping the documentation to a minimal for a number of practical reasons.

The Nazi’s were meticulous in their documentation. You can trace many prisoners travels throughout the war. Some travelled through 7 or 8 different camps, despite the fact we were told places like Treblinka and Auschwitz were final destination death camps.

Like I said earlier, there were daily reports given by each camp showing total camp populations, arrivals, departures, deaths and the cause of deaths (including executions). These reports were encoded and the Germans didn’t even know the British had cracked their encryption. So why no mention of mass killings/gassing?

 

[CreamyHerman’s]

The Nazi’s were meticulous in their documentation.

You can be meticulous and minimal at the same time, hence the unique numbers given to each prisoner.

You can trace many prisoners travels throughout the war. Some travelled through 7 or 8 different camps, despite the fact we were told places like Treblinka and Auschwitz were final destination death camps.

They were death camps, but I don't recall anyone saying they were final destination camps first, especially in the beginning of World War II. That being said.. It was a final destination of sorts for many prisoners.

These reports were encoded and the Germans didn’t even know the British had cracked their encryption. So why no mention of mass killings/gassing?

They did, just like how the Americans knew of the mass killings. They thought it was too ridiculous to believe that was real. Hell there's a article in the NY times back in 1940, that were reports of camps and mass executions were happening, but that was in the columns, never front-page.

 

[RichardMongler]

David Cole's 46 unanswered questions about the gas chambers is still worth a read for anyone interested :

http://vho.org/GB/c/DC/gc46-ORIGI.html

Why did David Cole hate Trump's Chosen People so much?

I do want it on record that David Cole is no longer a Holocaust denier, if he ever was one in the truest sense of the word. He was a revisionist, but I don't recall him ever truly denying the Holocaust happened. A few years back after publishing Republican Party Animal, Feral House posted this statement from Mr. Cole on their Facebook page where he criticizes Eric Hunt, a man who has also since left Holocaust denial.

As a matter of fact, David Cole confronted Ron Unz about an article published on unz.com on Holocaust denial.