The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

Chugger

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Sep 22, 2021
Fake Holocaust memoirs are so numerous they are a recognized literary genre.

It's a sort of fan fiction.
What's the relevance of stuff like 'masturbation machines of death' (never taken seriously by historians) to the overall debate?

Or are just you pointing out that a few shitty or more likely mentally ill human beings have exploited this event. if so I agree
 

b0x

who thinks KF is 2006 4chan
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I always wondered. If Operation Paperclip simply moved all the Nazi scientists to America, does that mean America is now Nazi Germany?

During the Nuremberg Medical Trials, several of the Nazi doctors and scientists who were being tried for their human experiments cited past unethical studies performed in the United States in their defense, namely the Chicago malaria experiments conducted by Joseph Goldberger.[55]

As of 2007, not a single U.S. government researcher had been prosecuted for human experimentation. The preponderance of the victims of U.S. government experiments have not received compensation or, in many cases, acknowledgment of what was done to them.[188]


 

Chugger

kiwifarms.net
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It seems we’ve reached an impasse in this discussion. Clearly everyone has more to say, but what exactly? This thread has pretty much doubled since I started talking in October and there’s another long thread, so we’ve covered a lot.

I think at this point I’ll offer anyone (@Lemmingwise, @Rapechu if you're still around?) a chance to talk via voice chat, which I want to livestream to give others a chance to join in or comment. I don’t think conversations like this exist on the internet so it could be very valuable. My model here would be the recent chat between Richard Spencer and mrgirl. Not a debate so much as a mutual exploration or study session.

If @Bonesjones joins I’ll tell him about the Hitler Order and Autopsies
 

Lemmingwise

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It seems we’ve reached an impasse in this discussion. Clearly everyone has more to say, but what exactly? This thread has pretty much doubled since I started talking in October and there’s another long thread, so we’ve covered a lot.

I think at this point I’ll offer anyone (@Lemmingwise, @Rapechu if you're still around?) a chance to talk via voice chat, which I want to livestream to give others a chance to join in or comment. I don’t think conversations like this exist on the internet so it could be very valuable. My model here would be the recent chat between Richard Spencer and mrgirl. Not a debate so much as a mutual exploration or study session.

If @Bonesjones joins I’ll tell him about the Hitler Order and Autopsies
The chance of me connecting my voice to a kiwifarms identity is about as big as the chance that auschwitz had active gas chambers for anything besides delousing.

And that's not even considering the fact that it is ostensibly illegal for me to voice my thoughts about this subject in my country.
 

Retired Junta Member

Currently riding the short bus to a Russian camp
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It seems we’ve reached an impasse in this discussion. Clearly everyone has more to say, but what exactly? This thread has pretty much doubled since I started talking in October and there’s another long thread, so we’ve covered a lot.

I think at this point I’ll offer anyone (@Lemmingwise, @Rapechu if you're still around?) a chance to talk via voice chat, which I want to livestream to give others a chance to join in or comment. I don’t think conversations like this exist on the internet so it could be very valuable. My model here would be the recent chat between Richard Spencer and mrgirl. Not a debate so much as a mutual exploration or study session.

If @Bonesjones joins I’ll tell him about the Hitler Order and Autopsies
You want to livestream a kiwifarms based roundtable on the Holocaust? Are you a glowie or did you just fall on your head from a speeding car as a baby?
 

Lemmingwise

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good point. I'll pick a time to host and people can join anonymously, maybe this Thursday 9 PM EST

if you want to talk and don't care about total anonymity please private message
People aren't that dumb. I may not have connected my voice with my kiwifarms identity, one person with a dutch accent shows up and they'll assume it's me. Or someone who uses the same terms of phrase. Or someone who has the same position as I've been writing about for pages. In short, it's never going to happen.

And to be honest and straight, I have more confidence in rando's listening not getting back to my life somehow, than I have you yourself figuring it out. I don't trust you. That isn't because you disagree with me; I had a huge disagreement over a number of subjects with @senior lexmechanic (before his name change, forget what it is). At some point, he invited me to the US and even to pay for my trip; it was over a rhetorical point, but he said he was serious. With all the risks that that entailed, and with connecting my identity to the forum identity, I still accepted, because despite all our disagreements, he seemed like a genuine and trustworthy guy underneath. It ended up not happening, probably because when it became serious, I presume he didn't trust me to that degree, or saw better uses for his money.

I also have no idea what you're like, because you post only about one topic. You don't act like a person who has an interest in discussion, and also interest in the holocaust. You seem to have only interest in the holocaust. I can't remember a single time where you exhibited any interest in a point you hadn't thought off before. You've offered multiple times to take serious whatever claims people make here as a tit for tat if they also take your claims serious. But you never seem to be interested in them unless it's a tacit trade for people to pay attention to your ideas. And those ideas then seem to be less your ideas, but more the regurgitation of the ideas of a single academic.

The only two things I respect about you, is that you aren't fazed by the hostile reception and that you frequently quote people that were considered holocaust deniers for their work.
Though even those raise questions. You seem to give little attention to the fact that they were and have none of the fervor of making sure people know how unfairly maligned some of these people were. And if you truly were as internally pursuing truth, why didn't it bother you when people called you a shill? Why was that so easy to shake off? So even there I can't give a compliment that isn't somehow tainted by the overall picture I've gotten from paying attention to you.

And lastly the entire experience has been too like my discussions with muslims in my younger years. There is no sign that you have any interest in anything I'd have to say; only token gestures of being interested in an attempt to hook me in. I fell for that kind of thing when I was more naive. But after reading muslim forums and how they advice each other, it's clear it's all disingenuous and my sense is telling me the same when discussing things with you. I've not seen you go off on a tangent where you were interested in proving yourself wrong at any point; that's what people do when they have an interest in truth; that's what I'm able to get from other people and to other people who prefer to have these discussions in private messaging discussions. That's even what you got from me, when I started to look into some of your claims.

I consider the matter closed, please don't ask me to voice chat again.
 
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Chugger

kiwifarms.net
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Sep 22, 2021
There is no impass, there is Chugger being wrong and running out of ways to dodge that. Again instead of posting simple pieces of information and denying any possibility of it not existing, you pivot to something else. It's beyond pathetic just like your personality.
I disagree with this and don't understand the characterization, so come talk to me on livestream
You want to livestream a kiwifarms based roundtable on the Holocaust? Are you a glowie or did you just fall on your head from a speeding car as a baby?
Since it's so simple, walk me through it--how can you be doxxed just by putting your voice online? Even if someone were able to narrow you down to a specific place based on dialect, that's still likely a population of hundreds of thousands of people.

In short, it's never going to happen.
That's fine, you don't have to talk to me, and you shouldn't take this as a continued request, but I should clarify some things
I also have no idea what you're like, because you post only about one topic. You don't act like a person who has an interest in discussion, and also interest in the holocaust. You seem to have only interest in the holocaust. I can't remember a single time where you exhibited any interest in a point you hadn't thought off before.
It so happens that I believe the evidence for the holocaust is overwhelming, and most points people bring up here end up strengthening the mainstream narrative. I am interested in what others say--eg @Rapechu brought up the existence of Jewish ghettos in occupied Romanian territory so I read a book about it. I believe I even thanked him for introducing me to a new topic

I'm interested in more than the Holocaust and actually recently talked a bit about it here: demographic change / white genocide theory. I suppose the Jewish question is also wrapped up in this, which I tried to discuss in this thread but the convo got diverted back to Holocaust stuff.

You seem to give little attention to the fact that they were and have none of the fervor of making sure people know how unfairly maligned some of these people were.
I've spoken up many times about how Holocaust denial should be protected under free speech laws, and it's doubly wrong to send people to prison for this. So I don't know what more you want me to add to this
And if you truly were as internally pursuing truth, why didn't it bother you when people called you a shill? Why was that so easy to shake off?
The accusation that I work for the JIDF is amusing, but more frustrating is when people assume I'm lying or manipulating them based on my posts. Everyone is a little biased, and this may sneak in subconsciously here and there, but I genuinely believe the evidence for the holocaust is so strong I shouldn't have to resort to tricks or deception to make the argument

finally I should clarify "mutual exploration"--I think at this point my views are rigid but what I don't understand is why you guys believe so strongly in the opposite. This is what I'm interested in figuring out, and you can do the same with me
 
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Retired Junta Member

Currently riding the short bus to a Russian camp
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Since it's so simple, walk me through it--how can you be doxxed just by putting your voice online? Even if someone were able to narrow you down to a specific place based on dialect, you're still likely looking at a population of hundreds of thousands of people.
I'm not the one who talked about doxxing, I just said that having a live debate on Holocaust denial, connected with the forum, is a retarded idea. No sane person would participate in such a stream for obvious reasons and I honestly don't even see its usefulness, as your dialogue looped pages and pages ago and you can easily continue it here.
 

Bonesjones

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Jan 27, 2021
I'm not the one who talked about doxxing, I just said that having a live debate on Holocaust denial, connected with the forum, is a retarded idea. No sane person would participate in such a stream for obvious reasons and I honestly don't even see its usefulness, as your dialogue looped pages and pages ago and you can easily continue it here.
He wandered into the Destiny thread and probably hopes he can parlay his attention here into some sort of streaming career. Guy is Ryu238 levels of tenacious and retarded.
 

biozeminadae1

kiwifarms.net
Joined
Oct 21, 2019
Personally, I think the Nazis did a poor job. I mean, they killed that many people and still those Jews had enough men to form an entire nation-state? What the Hell, Hitler???
 

Chugger

kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 22, 2021
I'm not the one who talked about doxxing, I just said that having a live debate on Holocaust denial, connected with the forum, is a retarded idea. No sane person would participate in such a stream for obvious reasons and I honestly don't even see its usefulness, as your dialogue looped pages and pages ago and you can easily continue it here.
What are the obvious reasons aside from getting doxxed?

There have actually been a lot of discussions where everyone including myself learned new things (eg Rapechu on Transnistria and orders for shootings in the East) but yeah there are loops and the blame for this lies with both sides. We'll be able to hammer out these issues better over voice chat I think


He wandered into the Destiny thread and probably hopes he can parlay his attention here into some sort of streaming career. Guy is Ryu238 levels of tenacious and retarded.
Sadly there seems to be little market or interest in holocaust revisionism from the 'anti' perspective. So career is not my objective--rather putting something out on the internet that hasn't really been done before
 

Terrorist

Osama bin Ladkin
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That isn't because you disagree with me; I had a huge disagreement over a number of subjects with @senior lexmechanic (before his name change, forget what it is). At some point, he invited me to the US and even to pay for my trip; it was over a rhetorical point, but he said he was serious.
For context: Lexmechanic (now banned) was a severely mentally ill politisperg who would sometimes fly off the handle at people who disagreed with him (dude called me a servant of Moloch once, which I remember because it's not every day one is accused of that). He's the source of the 4200 Wolfetown Road copypasta. He probably made that offer during an episode and regretted it later once his meds kicked in. What I'm saying is @Chugger you don't want to be that guy lol
 

B2_Spirit

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Joined
Dec 11, 2021
For my part, believe the Holocaust was neither as exaggerated as today's Jews claim it was, nor non-existent like the deniers say. It'd be incongruous and difficult to forge entire archives of hundreds of thousands of photographs of deathly emaciated people at the time, especially when taken by Allies at the liberation, so I think those are real. Is being a civvie locked up in a work camp and starved for being an "undesirable", shitty and cruel? Yes. Was it a typical tactic of the era? Pretty much. Americans shoved the Japs into internment camps as well, "just in case". They didn't starve them, but they also weren't fighting a war "at home" on multiple fronts to the point where forgetting about them would have been a thing.

Did the Nazis experiment on prisoners? I believe so. Photos seem to confirm it. Did a lot of them die? Sure. Did six gorillion? Apparently not. Were there electrified fairground rides, bendable shotguns and masturbation death-machines in there like some claimed? Lol no. Was Zyklon B used in shower heads or gassing rooms? Evidently not - they had a much cheaper method using a van and a pipe from the exhaust to the interior, and that makes more sense than elaborate "gas chambers". Did they tattoo prisoners like animals? Yes. Did they sterilize them to prevent them breeding? Likely.

Anne Frank apparently lived several years in a "death camp". Yet she died of a disease typical of poor conditions and wasn't "Zyklon'd". Do I believe prison guards fucked with those under their charge, and did shitty things to them? Of course. The Stanford Prison Experiment proves that's what people do if you "other" the subordinates enough, and we know Jews were pretty "othered" by the Germans of the time leading up to this. I've read a few auto/biographies of survivors with a similar apparent theme - they were Jews, "Jews bad", Jews put into work camp indefinitely, conditions are shit, many die of disease or malnutrition, WWII spirals and the Nazis end up basically forgetting about the prisoners who either die or hang on until eventually released by the invading Allies, and look like living skeletons. That in itself is pretty horrible, but Russia had its gulags, the Japanese had their death marches.

From what I've read, being in internment under Japanese occupation or in Unit 731 sounded rather worse. I'd rather have been in a German conc camp than that.
 

Lemmingwise

Amber Alert: I Heard a Turd
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For context: Lexmechanic (now banned) was a severely mentally ill politisperg who would sometimes fly off the handle at people who disagreed with him (dude called me a servant of Moloch once, which I remember because it's not every day one is accused of that). He's the source of the 4200 Wolfetown Road copypasta. He probably made that offer during an episode and regretted it later once his meds kicked in. What I'm saying is @Chugger you don't want to be that guy lol
Lmao, look like I dodged a bullet there. Didn't know that copypasta was his. Funny how I rate that guy higher in comparison, all things considered, lol.

The Stanford Prison Experiment proves that's what people do if you "other" the subordinates enough
The stanford prison experiment was such a completely flawed experiment, that it doesn't tell us a single thing besides that a little exaggerated "research" can be the basis of getting people to believe bigger lies like some parts of the holocaust. I encourage you to read up on it.

It's comparable to the millgram experiments in that regard; very popularly known research, completely flawed methodology and the takeaways don't align with any of the details of what happened. If you're curious, just look at the interviews with the guys involved.

It spawned some good thrillers based on the concept though.

From what I've read, being in internment under Japanese occupation or in Unit 731 sounded rather worse. I'd rather have been in a German conc camp than that.
Two grandparents of mine were in Japanese camps. My grandfather nearly died from disease at some point, and would've if one of the japanese doctors didn't forcefeed him, a fact he remained grateful over. My grandmother frequently called her time in the camp as the best time of her life; but then she came from a tyrannical household and the "steal-your-own-food" and freedom compared to her prior life was appealing. But she was also a tough old bitch of a woman, supposedly even before the camps. And in later years she also started talking more about how much some of the religious people really looked out for her and helped to get her food and prevent her getting raped and such.

My grandfather was angrier with the dutch government for not giving them their promised wages, which led to him somehow having to get back to his home on his own payment; and the same later when he ended his deployment in indonesia where he had to pay for his own trip back to the netherlands.

I'm reading a book right now that a friend of his wrote, with his remarks in the margins; for example the book writes about being hit with bamboo rods and he corrects that they used the flat side of a baseball bat instead. So I'm sure it wasn't all sugar and spice. And at least the western camps of the german camps seemed very humane, with the dentists, doctors, theaters, red cross inspections and such.

Though it took them decades to come over their dislike of the japanese and everything japanese and I'm sure I'll end up reading more things that were bad in this book.
 
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