The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

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mrolonzo

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I have to add here, since soy_king did good work that shouldn't be so easily dismissed.

according to the very conservative numbers soy_king provided, European Jewish population declined by half. This would be the equivalent of Poland's population decreasing from 29 million to 15 million over the course of the war. Instead its population was 26 million in 1946. Poland's statistics may also be skewed by the fact Jewish population there decreased by 2.9 million over the course of the war.

Assuming the census numbers are accurate, genocide is heavily indicated.

Then the question would be why we don't see the same or comparable with other european countries, but we do see even higher population change in ussr territory.

Apparently he witnessed so much horror that your family has only been able to finish sentences with ellipses ever since.

Also, the First Infantry Division never went anywhere near Auschwitz (and it was liberated by the Soviets, anyway). So maybe your Grandfather was just making up excuses for being a drunk?

This Rudolf interview is instructive;

"Let me therefore go back to the only two books that actually focused on nothing but the statistical topic of Jewish population losses in Europe during World War II. There is the revisionist work The Dissolution of Eastern European Jewry written in 1983 by Walter N. Sanning, aka Wilhelm Niederreiter, and the anthology Dimension des Völkermords (Magnitude of the Genocide) edited in 1991 by political scientist Wolfgang Benz.

While Sanning sets the unexplained losses of the European Jewry at an order of magnitude of 300,000, Benz, in accordance with traditional teaching, arrives at a figure of some six million.

L: Well, great! The difference couldn’t be more striking. Which of the two works is the one you would recommend?

R: Benz’s book is today regarded as a standard. To a large extent it rests upon considerably more extensive source material than Sanning’s.

L: So we have six million dead Jews after all!


R: Easy now, and let’s go step by step. Even though Benz’s book is obviously a reaction to the revisionist work, it makes no attempt at a direct and serious discussion of Sanning’s arguments. Sanning himself is mentioned only once in a footnote, and then only to be defamed.15
L: That is not really a very scientific approach!"

R: Right, and all the more so as Benz expressly published his book to refute revisionist theses. Because of this lack of a discussion of revisionist arguments, one can only place the two works side by side and compare the statistics the authors present. That is precisely what I have done (Rudolf 2003a, pp. 181-213).

Let me make a résumé of the most important results. First of all, it turns out that in both works the victims of the Holocaust are defined in entirely different ways.

While Sanning tries to add up only those victims who died from direct killings in line with a National Socialist (NS) persecution policy, Benz attributes to the Holocaust all Jewish population losses in Europe, including those of people killed in action while fighting in the Red Army, victims of Soviet deportations and forced-labor camps, surplus of deaths over births, or religious conversions.

What is more important, though, is the fact that Benz completely neglects the migrations that occurred immediately prior to, during and after the Second World War.

This is where the central problem of any statistical treatment of the subject is hidden, however.

Benz casts completely aside the emigration of Jews from Europe to Israel and to the United States, which became known as the Second Exodus.

It started before World War Two, was largely interrupted in 1941, and reached its peak in the years between 1945 and 1947.

Benz also deals only very briefly with the migrations of Jews within eastern Europe, such as the number of Polish Jews who managed to escape before the advancing German armies – Sanning makes a convincing case for a figure of around one million – or the percentage of Soviet Jews who were deported to Siberia and elsewhere by the Soviets in 1941, after hostilities broke out with Germany, and in 1942.

L: Do you mean to say that Stalin deported Jews to Siberia?

R: Absolutely. Sanning quotes figures announced by Jewish charity organizations at the time which speak of somewhere between half a million and one million Jews who were moved east when the war with Germany broke out. Stalin himself attacked the Jews massively during the “Great Purge,” which took place in 1937 and 1938.

all holocaust deniers are faggots
Why. Holocaust denial is one of the most dangerous free speech activities you can do across the world. Revisionists have been jailed or assaulted for the last 70 years. If anything revisionists are Chads, and anyone believing in the holocaust is a fag. This is something everyone can agree on given the above.
 

Lemmingwise

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Chugger

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As I've said before, general population. Yes, also in romania. If they had kept stats we might have compared them to non-war USSR territories, because they might have been comparable.
I was responding to this point "In any case jewish loss of life is not evidence of a genocide anymore than russian or polish or romanian loss of life is evidence of genocide"

You're saying a few million Poles or Russians dying doesn't mean genocide, but rather the effects of a brutal occupation and anti partisan measures. I'm saying your mistake here is you're not taking into account how disproportionally Jews were affected (reflected in the census info @soy_king posted). eg in Poland 80-90% of Jewish population is said to have died, while much lower proportion of non-Jews were killed (around 10%). also note the casualties for 39-41 Soviet occupied territory which are "normal" ie proportional

1653428393760.png
 
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Lemmingwise

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I was responding to this point "In any case jewish loss of life is not evidence of a genocide anymore than russian or polish or romanian loss of life is evidence of genocide"

You're saying a few million Poles or Russians dying doesn't mean genocide, but rather the effects of a brutal occupation and anti partisan measures. I'm saying your mistake here is you're not taking into account how disproportionally Jews were affected (reflected in the census info @soy_king posted). eg in Poland 80-90% of Jewish population is said to have died, while much lower proportion of non-Jews were killed (around 10%). also note the casualties for 39-41 Soviet occupied territory which are "normal" ie proportional

View attachment 3316038
I answered your question, but you didn't answer mine.

Pretty much par for the course at this point.
 

Chugger

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I answered your question, but you didn't answer mine.

Pretty much par for the course at this point.
Your question is why a higher proportion of the general population died in Soviet Territories than in Poland? This isn't really true, as the numbers from Wikipedia indicate for Ukraine

eg

1653431218418.png


unless you're talking specifically about the non-Jewish population. Yeah, a higher percentage of the non-Jewish population died due to the war of annihilation being waged in USSR , the "hunger plan" , the treatment of Soviet POWS, and the longer duration of the fighting .

However the loss of non-Jewish population is proportionately nowhere close to the loss of Jewish population, which was the point I was making and I'm not sure if you understand.
 

Lemmingwise

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My bad, I should have taken my own advice and not even wasted the time on you. I see (once again) that you're not even trying to understand or engage with the question and just post your random preconceived notions instead that don't even address the question.
 

Chugger

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My bad, I should have taken my own advice and not even wasted the time on you. I see (once again) that you're not even trying to understand or engage with the question and just post your random preconceived notions instead that don't even address the question.
I asked you twice to clarify your question in case I wasn't getting it
Are you talking about Jewish or general population decrease in Ussr?
Your question is why a higher proportion of the general population died in Soviet Territories than in Poland?
Good job, you've proven once again that I am acting in bad faith.
 

Lemmingwise

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I asked you twice to clarify your question in case I wasn't getting it


Good job, you've proven once again that I am acting in bad faith.
If my question wasn't clear yet, why did you answer it, in both instances?

The only reason I can think of is that it's more important for you to have excuses to give your takes and post links to wikipedia pages rather than actually think and engage about the subject.

Nevermind that you're asking for something that I had already clarified before.
 

Chugger

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The only reason I can think of is that it's more important for you to have excuses to give your takes and post links to wikipedia pages rather than actually think and engage about the subject.
I was 75% sure I understood your question, and anyway I'm not sure what the big deal is that I answered the wrong one. I am interested in what your real question is, now more than ever, since it feels like you're saying you asked me a direct and simple question, but I looked through our dialogue again and I haven't the faintest idea of what it is.
 

Bonesjones

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I was 75% sure I understood your question, and anyway I'm not sure what the big deal is that I answered the wrong one. I am interested in what your real question is, now more than ever, since it feels like you're saying you asked me a direct and simple question, but I looked through our dialogue again and I haven't the faintest idea of what it is.
Its because you are a literal retard
 

Lemmingwise

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I'm reasonably sure @Lemmingwise 's question doesn't exist, and he was just trying to get out of a losing argument lol. If you can show me it does I'll leave (permanently) this forum with my tail between my legs.
Then the question would be why we don't see the same or comparable with other european countries, but we do see even higher population decrease in ussr territory?

Goodbye.
 

Chugger

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I answered this question

"Then the question would be why we don't see the same or comparable with other european countries, but we do see even higher population decrease in ussr territory?"

a higher percentage of the non-Jewish population died due to the war of annihilation being waged in USSR , the "hunger plan" , the treatment of Soviet POWS, and the longer duration of the fighting .
(in the case of Poland total population loss was comparable due to the high amount of Jews that died)
 

Lemmingwise

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I knew you wouldn't really leave. Why would you keep a promise?

It also doesn't answer the question asked, you end up redirecting to proportional non-jewish population instead.
 

Chugger

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I knew you wouldn't really leave. Why would you keep a promise?

It also doesn't answer the question asked, you end up redirecting to proportional non-jewish population instead.
So if I was to take your question completely literally, the biggest reason ussr had higher population loss than any other country, is because ussr had 6x more people than the next largest country

If you're talking about population loss as a percentage, this isn't true as I showed in the case of Poland /Ukraine

But removing all exceptions, I'd say general population loss as a percentage in ussr was higher due to
 

mrolonzo

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So if I was to take your question completely literally, the biggest reason ussr had higher population loss than any other country, is because ussr had 6x more people than the next largest country

If you're talking about population loss as a percentage, this isn't true as I showed in the case of Poland /Ukraine

But removing all exceptions, I'd say general population loss as a percentage in ussr was higher due to

What is this war of annihilation thing? Hitler didn't want to kill slavs, he had them in his army already.
 

Chugger

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What is this war of annihilation thing? Hitler didn't want to kill slavs, he had them in his army already.
Even the most hardened deniers on codoh will admit Nazi colonization plans of USSR

"So Hitler eventually decided to colonise the territory of the USSR, big whoop."

My most sympathetic appraisal of Nazi actions here is that colonizing an advanced and enormously populated nation means mass resistance is inevitable, and the only way to overcome this is with extreme brutality, reprisals etc . Nazis also had to maintain their supply lines, so tamping down on partisan activity was vital. These conditions were not present in the west, or even areas like Czechoslovakia, to further expound on my answer to @Lemmingwise 's "question"

war of annihilation is a broad term with long history of use. You could argue that the wars conducted by the Allies against Germany and Japan qualify here, but whatever was happening in the USSR was on a different level