Disaster The new thread to talk about the Muslim religion and Jews - 911 was something that some people did

Wesley Willis

Rock over London, Burn down Chicago!
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bUt PeW iS fuLL oF rEt.ArDeD LiBeRaLs

Half of these replies (the ones advocating violence) are the epitome of posting an Amerimutt in the /pol/ board and that somehow equivocating to making fun of white Americans.


I was being optimistic about their population remaining a tiny minority, but I guess since I don't want Crusade 2.0 I must be a Wil Wheaton clone.
 

Give Her The D

White (((Jews))) Exit Here
True & Honest Fan
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I was being optimistic about their population remaining a tiny minority, but I guess since I don't want Crusade 2.0 I must be a Wil Wheaton clone.
I guess I must be too. Plus I know the President's not dumb enough to start acts that could get him into war crimes territory.
 

The 8 of Spades

This Is Our Church, These Are Your Sins.
kiwifarms.net
I was being optimistic about their population remaining a tiny minority, but I guess since I don't want Crusade 2.0 I must be a Wil Wheaton clone.

A crusade is a bunch of Pol larp shit, but I don't think believing that Islam needs a modernization is the same thing. I'd have no problem with the religion if it followed the general path of most and became a modern version compliant with some level of personal freedom and acceptance of liberal leaning societies.

And if anyone can explain to me why we're just supposed to ignore the preposterous amount of violence perpetrated under the banner of Islam for this discussion about comments on 9/11, that'd be interesting.
 

Absolutego

kiwifarms.net
A crusade is a bunch of Pol larp shit, but I don't think believing that Islam needs a modernization is the same thing. I'd have no problem with the religion if it followed the general path of most and became a modern version compliant with some level of personal freedom and acceptance of liberal leaning societies.

And if anyone can explain to me why we're just supposed to ignore the preposterous amount of violence perpetrated under the banner of Islam for this discussion about comments on 9/11, that'd be interesting.
There is a wide middle ground between "Islam can do no wrong" and "All muslims adhere to the worst aspects of their exceptional medieval religion and we should assume they want to kill us at the earliest opportunity for being infidels". You don't have to ignore it, but you should keep some perspective. You can recognize that the majority of the population are nonviolent without discounting their religion's tendency to inspire violence among its extremists.

Most American Muslims are like the 1% in their respective country immigrating here, usually because they're fleeing fundamentalist regimes they themselves want no part in. Yeah, their children often over-compensate because they feel stuck between worlds like most 2nd gen immigrants, but it's not like the USA has the European problem of mass-importing jihadis into their country. The Atlantic ocean has its uses.
 

The 8 of Spades

This Is Our Church, These Are Your Sins.
kiwifarms.net
There is a wide middle ground between "Islam can do no wrong" and "All muslims adhere to the worst aspects of their exceptional medieval religion and we should assume they want to kill us at the earliest opportunity for being infidels". You don't have to ignore it, but you should keep some perspective. You can recognize that the majority of the population are nonviolent without discounting their religion's tendency to inspire violence among its extremists.

Most American Muslims are like the 1% in their respective country immigrating here, usually because they're fleeing fundamentalist regimes they themselves want no part in. Yeah, their children often over-compensate because they feel stuck between worlds like most 2nd gen immigrants, but it's not like the USA has the European problem of mass-importing jihadis into their country. The Atlantic ocean has its uses.
Agreed, I just feel like when conversations like this come up it becomes verboten to discuss the violence without whataboutism about the crusades (which were how long ago now?) or how that's not relevant when discussing the religion. I've got no issue with Muslims or Middle Easterners in general, hell I grew up surrounded by them. I do have an issue with Islam which is the driving force of most modern terror attacks and I think you can criticize that without making overarching statements about people in general.
 

Unog

You're a nog.
kiwifarms.net
I was being optimistic about their population remaining a tiny minority, but I guess since I don't want Crusade 2.0 I must be a Wil Wheaton clone.
Please tell me how having just over three million people who are adherents to a religion that dictates you lie at best, and at worst rape and behead nonbelievers in the U.S. is not a problem that we should address.

A crusade is a bunch of Pol larp shit, but I don't think believing that Islam needs a modernization is the same thing. I'd have no problem with the religion if it followed the general path of most and became a modern version compliant with some level of personal freedom and acceptance of liberal leaning societies.
Pretty much my stance on the issue, tbh.

And if anyone can explain to me why we're just supposed to ignore the preposterous amount of violence perpetrated under the banner of Islam for this discussion about comments on 9/11, that'd be interesting.
The reason you see so many people hand-wave, minimize, or (like the poster I'm quoting below) the specifically #NotAll flavor of downplaying the problem is because of the rhetoric that's surrounded this issue since it first reared it's ugly head.

There's this strange conflation that people who do this keep making between ethnicity and ideology. If we were to entirely replace the word "muslims" with Arabs, or maybe Somalis, or North Africans, and also replace "believe in Islam" with come from the Middle East, or come from Africa, a shitload of their arguments would suddenly hold water. Also assuming that we change the syntax of the conversation from a religious/ideological one to a behavioral/compulsory one (i.e. swap "their religion dictates" with "their biology/instincts" ala actual 8/pol/ talk about muh niggers).

Not to mention that a lot of the people talking about this topic either don't understand, won't understand, or simply aren't capable of understanding the level of control over it's subjects Islam has, nor the uniformity with which it's basic teachings (among which are the commands to lie to, rape, murder, and enslave non-believers) are spread.

I mean it makes sense if you think about it for more than a half of a second. Those who leave the faith or speak out about wanting to reform it are at best completely ostracized from their entire family and social support network, and effectively branded as worse than a non-believer and marked as someone to never ever be listened to on any level for any reason again, and at worst fucking murdered. It can not be overstated that this has been the way this religion has worked since inception until now.

There is a wide middle ground between "Islam can do no wrong" and "All muslims adhere to the worst aspects of their exceptional medieval religion and we should assume they want to kill us at the earliest opportunity for being infidels". You don't have to ignore it, but you should keep some perspective. You can recognize that the majority of the population are nonviolent without discounting their religion's tendency to inspire violence among its extremists.
This is a misconception. Like I've said before, this is akin to saying not all socialists want any capitalist system to be replaced with a socialist economy wherever they're found. These are basic tenets of the religion, one that it bears infinite repeating until it gets through people's thick-ass skulls has never had an ethical reformation since founding.

Most American Muslims are like the 1% in their respective country immigrating here, usually because they're fleeing fundamentalist regimes they themselves want no part in.
If it were true that they wanted no part in them, why is it consistently seen time and again that the enclaves that these adherents make in western countries never fail past a certain percentage of the population start advocating for more and more of their religious customs to be foisted upon their neighbors? First extremely locally, and then radiating outward?

Those questions are rhetorical. While they may not like the shithole they came from due to the state it's in I can guarantee you it's the "But it wasn't real Socialism!" attitude but with Islam.

Yeah, their children often over-compensate because they feel stuck between worlds like most 2nd gen immigrants, but it's not like the USA has the European problem of mass-importing jihadis into their country. The Atlantic ocean has its uses.
The problem isn't just the religion itself or it's practitioners being in the West, I honestly want the fucking religion to have the demand for a reformation pushed upon it until it begins to have one for the sake of the people in it. But that is never going to happen as long as people keep acting as if though there's such a thing as a "moderate" muslim. The conversation needs to shift from the dichotomy of "moderate/radical" to "reformist/non-reformist", so that the actual, honest reformists (of which there are few openly speaking even in the West for reasons that should be obvious) can help to find a way to combat this problem and that the problem itself can finally be correctly addressed. As things stand right now "radicalization" isn't something that happens because of Saudi money or whatever other scapegoat that people keep throwing into the river to justify this rhetoric, it's an eventuality in any muslim community given time.
 
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kcbbq

No controlling legal authority
kiwifarms.net
Please tell me how having just over three million people who are adherents to a religion that dictates you lie at best, and at worst rape and behead nonbelievers in the U.S. is not a problem that we should address.



Pretty much my stance on the issue, tbh.



The reason you see so many people hand-wave, minimize, or (like the poster I'm quoting below) the specifically #NotAll flavor of downplaying the problem is because of the rhetoric that's surrounded this issue since it first reared it's ugly head.

There's this strange conflation that people who do this keep making between ethnicity and ideology. If we were to entirely replace the word "muslims" with Arabs, or maybe Somalis, or North Africans, and also replace "believe in Islam" with come from the Middle East, or come from Africa, a shitload of their arguments would suddenly hold water. Also assuming that we change the syntax of the conversation from a religious/ideological one to a behavioral/compulsory one (i.e. swap "their religion dictates" with "their biology/instincts" ala actual 8/pol/ talk about muh niggers).

Not to mention that a lot of the people talking about this topic either don't understand, won't understand, or simply aren't capable of understanding the level of control over it's subjects Islam has, nor the uniformity with which it's basic teachings (among which are the commands to lie to, rape, murder, and enslave non-believers) are spread.

I mean it makes sense if you think about it for more than a half of a second. Those who leave the faith or speak out about wanting to reform it are at best completely ostracized from their entire family and social support network, and effectively branded as worse than a non-believer and marked as someone to never ever be listened to on any level for any reason again, and at worst fucking murdered. It can not be overstated that this has been the way this religion has worked since inception until now.



This is a misconception. Like I've said before, this is akin to saying not all socialists want any capitalist system to be replaced with a socialist economy wherever they're found. These are basic tenets of the religion, one that it bears infinite repeating until it gets through people's thick-ass skulls has never had an ethical reformation since founding.



If it were true that they wanted no part in them, why is it consistently seen time and again that the enclaves that these adherents make in western countries never fail past a certain percentage of the population start advocating for more and more of their religious customs to be foisted upon their neighbors? First extremely locally, and then radiating outward?

Those questions are rhetorical. While they may not like the shithole they came from due to the state it's in I can guarantee you it's the "But it wasn't real Socialism!" attitude but with Islam.



The problem isn't just the religion itself or it's practitioners being in the West, I honestly want the fucking religion to have the demand for a reformation pushed upon it until it begins to have one for the sake of the people in it. But that is never going to happen as long as people keep acting as if though there's such a thing as a "moderate" muslim. The conversation needs to shift from the dichotomy of "moderate/radical" to "reformist/non-reformist", so that the actual, honest reformists (of which there are few openly speaking even in the West for reasons that should be obvious) can help to find a way to combat this problem and that the problem itself can finally be correctly addressed. As things stand right now "radicalization" isn't something that happens because of Saudi money or whatever other scapegoat that people keep throwing into the river to justify this rhetoric, it's an eventuality in any muslim community given time.
There are pretty good arguments that there has been a reformation going on in Islam, possibly going back as early as the 1920s. It's a slow process, for example how many Catholics still aren't on board with Vatican II? It's a rambling process that often brings out the worst in religions. Islam is about as old as Christianity when it began to accept reforms, but it's not like Martin Luther lived to see the end results of being the most visible linchpin.

What did the Christians have up until then? One sect eradicating others, killing entire cities off because the couldn't tell the difference between the ones practicing the right version of Christianity and the wrong kind. We get the modern "Kill them all and let God sort them out" from a Templar bigwig when they killed everyone in Montsegur (from something like "Kill them, God will know his own"). They just didn't have the same level of military hardware available today - it was a little more up close and personal.

It's kind of sad; Islam was really ahead of its time until Muhammed went to war. It was pretty enlightened in Medina in a free your slaves, be nice to everyone, women are people, too, etc., kind of way. Went south when it got warlike, and worse when he died.

My hope is that in the next few decades they can shake off the medieval shit and the world gets a little friendlier.
 

nosemouth

kiwifarms.net
So what of the ones who are already citizens, some of whom can trace roots back here hundreds of years? Taking away peoples' citizenship because they have wrong beliefs is about the most unAmerican thing you can do. Any attempt to do so (against any group) would and should be met with violent resistance.

Also Muslims make up all of 1.1% of the population, bro. Chill with the paranoid fantasies.
And when they stop making up more than 1.1% of terrorist attacks, those "paranoid" fantasies will go away.
 

Maxliam

Professional Niggo
kiwifarms.net
And when they stop making up more than 1.1% of terrorist attacks, those "paranoid" fantasies will go away.
Not to mention Islam will gladly destroy the first amendment because it will have sharia law imposed if it could. Islam is not compatible with the west. The Burmese have the right idea on how to keep the muslims in line. You can't sleep with a rabid dog in your home.
 
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Ineedahero

kiwifarms.net
The problem isn't just the religion itself or it's practitioners being in the West, I honestly want the fucking religion to have the demand for a reformation pushed upon it until it begins to have one for the sake of the people in it. But that is never going to happen as long as people keep acting as if though there's such a thing as a "moderate" muslim. The conversation needs to shift from the dichotomy of "moderate/radical" to "reformist/non-reformist", so that the actual, honest reformists (of which there are few openly speaking even in the West for reasons that should be obvious) can help to find a way to combat this problem and that the problem itself can finally be correctly addressed. As things stand right now "radicalization" isn't something that happens because of Saudi money or whatever other scapegoat that people keep throwing into the river to justify this rhetoric, it's an eventuality in any muslim community given time.
I don't think it is going to get modernised. I wouldn't modernise if it were up to me - look how neutered and ineffectual the church is nowadays, compared to how it used to be. Why would any other religion follow that model willingly?
 

Unog

You're a nog.
kiwifarms.net
There are pretty good arguments that there has been a reformation going on in Islam, possibly going back as early as the 1920s. It's a slow process, for example how many Catholics still aren't on board with Vatican II? It's a rambling process that often brings out the worst in religions. Islam is about as old as Christianity when it began to accept reforms, but it's not like Martin Luther lived to see the end results of being the most visible linchpin.
Part of the reason that I think this could be accomplished in under a decade is that the difference between those ages and now is the vast telecommunications networks spanning the globe. If people in the West could finally address the root of the problem honestly, instead of this endless rhetoric I've mentioned before, and work with reformists within our own nations while slowing down immigration from muslim-majority countries we could see real change in a rather short amount of time.

Once Islam in the West is about as dogmatic and treacherous as your average Baptist church, hopefully the change would affect countries elsewhere.

I don't think it is going to get modernised. I wouldn't modernise if it were up to me - look how neutered and ineffectual the church is nowadays, compared to how it used to be. Why would any other religion follow that model willingly?
That's defeatist. It would modernize if people would drop the "radical islam" and "Islamist" memes and address the root issue, which is that the religion needs a major ethical reform. However, I would agree with your statement wholeheartedly if I believed it were impossible to cut through the bullshit rhetoric and inform people of just what that root problem actually is.

What the actual fuck happened to this thread?
An in-depth discussion about a major component of the topic of the thread. I didn't realize that was a bad thing.
 

Ineedahero

kiwifarms.net
That's defeatist. It would modernize if people would drop the "radical islam" and "Islamist" memes and address the root issue, which is that the religion needs a major ethical reform. However, I would agree with your statement wholeheartedly if I believed it were impossible to cut through the bullshit rhetoric and inform people of just what that root problem actually is.
I don't mean to be defeatist, I wasn't viewing it as a problem that needs solving, I was thinking with the perspective 'if you ran a religion, what would you think about this subject', and if I ran a religion, I would fight back against any attempts at reformation tooth and nail. I would dress it in the language of tolerance and respect for religious autonomy, and I would fight until the bitter end. And I am a westerner brought up in the tradition of the enlightenment, not a middle eastern tyrant-cleric of a medieval moon cult. I'm not saying reform will be impossible - as @kcbbq has pointed out, Islam has been slowly but steadily reforming - just that it will not be without opposition.
 
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NeoGAF Lurker

An Niggo
kiwifarms.net
What actual motivation is there to “modernize” Islam? Any imam could see that modernizing Christianity was a huge mistake and decide that a globohomo-friendly Islam will just demoralize their followers instead. It’s not a shock that Islam has only become more hardline the more it interacts with neoliberalism. Look at our current cuck of a pope, who wants to inflict that on any other religion?
 

Feline Darkmage

Feelin Dankmeme
Staff Member
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I'm glad the republicans are proving once again that they too can be contenders for the Snowflake World Offendedweight Championship

To be fair to the right, the left invented this outrage culture, so they can't cry foul when the right does the same. I would be in favor of dropping it altogether but since that won't happen we might as well play their game.
Evangelical soccer moms who hated rock music and DnD invented it.

This thread has become gay and autistic and also super gay.
Jokes on you. The thread was gay from the start. Also autistic.

I think people forget due to all the faux outrage the left uses with all the bullshit and double standards, there are things real people do get outraged about.
No this is a pretty stupid outrage too.
 
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