The Tomboy Question(s) -

[Fek]

In contrast, your argument is that there's no agreed upon definition of the term to the point that any conversation about tomboys is meaningless, between individual and cultural perspective differences.

Every single "deep thots" convo ever can be boiled down to this sort of crap at its terminus. Sooner or later, people wanna start splitting the already split hairs. It's why I've never been big on navel-gazing philosophical discussion. More just thinking out loud than accusing you of anything, you understand.

Is it more important to argue over the term, or gain the perspective of those who will read it and give you feedback in their own way? I'm sure you'll know when someone clearly didn't get it (as evident by the sheer number of replies to the attention whore feeding off your wasted efforts in this thread).

Spoiler: Re: A post from pages ago

Though I've never personally had the problem of her wanting to invade my time in any way, because if it starts to bother me, I just don't let her. Maybe I protect my borders early and vigilantly enough?

In my previously referenced scenario, it was definitely a boundaries issue (and it was most certainly a matter of being young and stupid). A sort of "we share <x> and <y> interests holy shit I've never had this happen before this will be gr- wait, where did all my personal time go? fffFFFF-" situation. The folly of youth.

The only issue is that it could get weirdly competitive from time to time.

I'm quite convinced that men and women are not supposed to compete directly with one another in general in any serious fashion.

What you describe sounds almost like someone who regrets turning their hobby into a job.

Regret? No..all perspective gained is good perspective. That uh..that being said - I would not do it again, lmao.

 

[Zero Day Defense]

What hypocrites, back in the day these 'women' wouldn't even consider venturing anything past MySpace or cringe Fotologs. Now they claim our stuff and take over. Many such cases!

well it's not like we haven't been fighting back if 'ya know what i'm saying

 

[Android raptor]

well it's not like we haven't been fighting back if 'ya know what i'm saying

I've been on kf like 4+ years longer than either of you have lol

 

[Solid Snek]

This is a very good thread, and I wish we had more Deep Thoughts like this.

 

[Gaming Gamer]

The concept has nothing to do with achievement.

This is not an underhanded dig at you. So for the record, this is the internet I don't get mad at shit over the internet. I believe I mentioned something about nuance in one of my previous posts. My statements tend to come fully loaded with nuance. This is one of those times. I'll explain what I meant in a different manner. Think of the whole Asian stereotype of being good at math. Lets say an Asian passes a math test then I say "of course he passed it he's Asian" as a joke that's whatever but as an unironic statement that devalues the accomplishment of passing said test. How that relates to Tomboys is it leaves the door open for such comments. "Oh she did that because she's a tomboy or oh she only won because she's a tomboy." With this recent infatuation with tomboys I see these being used as excuses.

I don't think anybody so far as labeled those things as common interests of the tomboy, though-- at least, not ones to be considered. I believe that idea was even repudiated as supposing that a tomboy is just a "female soyboy consoomer", an assessment I find convincing.

There are things that are male dominated because of some fluke, and things that are male dominated because they speak to masculinity. I'd consider something like Star Wars an example of the former, and mechanics and other hard labor activities that demand masculine physical advantages to be an example of the latter. What about Star Wars is specifically geared towards men? What masculine qualities does it seize upon?

On the other end of things, there are plenty of fields once male-dominated that are now receiving more female attention and involvement, yet we know that there are fields (such as nursing) that will continue to be female-dominant principally because innate female qualities lead to a gravitation to that field in a way that innate male qualities do not.

Also operative is the reason why interest is had, which speaks to the thought process of the subject. Intuitively, if a woman were to take interest in starkly masculine interests for reasons rather similar to those that men have, I'll be inclined to find them "tomboyish".

That said, I think I made an error in not considering the question of "what constitutes a tomboy" before anything else. That, in itself, is a valuable discussion.

I don't know how familiar you are with Japanese culture but it is archaic as fuck. Activities in the west that are seen as normal for both genders to participate in. May still be male dominated in Japan and seen as (masculine) still. I literally had a friend show me a random 2D girl that had abs and had it in a "tomboy" folder. Fit women are not Tomboys. Just a general rule to follow and overall good to remember. "Just because you haven't heard it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist."

The examples I used have all been examples I've heard previously. If we're talking anime its well understood that it will be about animation from Japan specifically. Going back to the music example if we're talking music its well understood what that entails cultural differences or not. If we're talking tomboys the conversation is up in the air. Unfortunately there is no council of internet users to come up with an agreed upon definition of "tomboys".

The one you cite still seems to assert that the concept of "tomboy" indeed has a definition, but what is presently considered "tomboy" is substantially influenced by Japanese pop culture/fetishism and accordingly deviates greatly from real life.

In contrast, your argument is that there's no agreed upon definition of the term to the point that any conversation about tomboys is meaningless, between individual and cultural perspective differences.

Since the definition of tomboys changes culturally. Yes, it needs to be established what cultural definition of tomboys we are discussing. Then once a working definition has been agreed upon from the perspective of "X" culture. Then yes a meaningful ironic discussion of "is it gay or not" can be had. Until then these discussions can reduced to a bunch of "no u" arguments. I don't call others gay lightly. Technically I do, but only in the context of shitposting. So when I say "Tomboy lovers are closeted gays." There's a fuck ton of nuance in that statement. I'm not saying to simply "bait or shitpost." It is what it is.

 

[Android raptor]

Anime, especially moe-blob shit, is also going to portray an idealized fantasy that appeals to horny nerds instead of be a realistic portrayal of even Japanese tomboys. See also yaoi characters vs. actual feminine gay men. I think a lot of the people ITT have made it clear they arent so much interested in real tomboys as they are idealized cartoon characters.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Since the definition of tomboys changes culturally. Yes, it needs to be established what cultural definition of tomboys we are discussing. Then once a working definition has been agreed upon from the perspective of "X" culture.

I don't know why people think that definition rules lawyering is going to provide clarity, especially while not even discussing how they think it is defined.

It's an odd type of conversation criticism that doesn't move anything forward.

They are a kind of cultural concept that is never going to have a 100% accurate definition anyways. It's something that everyone brings some baggage to.

Honestly the dictionary definitions are accurate enough.

Think of the whole Asian stereotype of being good at math. Lets say an Asian passes a math test then I say "of course he passed it he's Asian" as a joke that's whatever but as an unironic statement that devalues the accomplishment of passing said test.

Why is this important? Anything and everyone can be devalued with a choice comment. You don't even need stereotypes for that.

My statements tend to come fully loaded with nuance

I think what you're describing is more like personal meaning. Nuance would mean it's contextually deducable (even if very subtle) what you mean.

It's something I'm guilty of myself from time to time. But I don't think anyone could deduce that your statement of "Tomboy lovers are closeted gays" being some kind of meta criticism of not defining the terms beyond reproach.

That's not subtlety, that's headcanon.

 

[Samson Pumpkin Jr.]

Unfortunately there is no council of internet users to come up with an agreed upon definition of "tomboys".

that's gay because all of us are western so even if there isn't a solid and generally accepted definition we still all have the collective consciousness of what a tomboy is, otherwise we literally couldn't talk to each other without getting confused immediately. I don't think any Japanese are in this thread, but if they were that'd be pretty cool