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The true monarch of EnglandFSTDT Forums Pet Lolcow Jacob Stuart Harrison Oinks for our Amusement

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Jacob Harrison, Jan 19, 2019.

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  1. That is not quite the case. Those who gained the throne through conquest were seen as usurpers and there were people who fought to restore the legitimate line back to power. England is a good example. When Henry of Bolingbroke overthrew Richard II and became Henry IV, there was a rebellion that sought to restore Richard to the throne, which is why Henry IV had Richard murdered(which indicates that Richard did not willingly abdicate and him being alive was a threat).

    There was the Southhamton plot against Henry V and there was later the Wars of the Roses that caused the overthrow of the House of Lancaster. After Henry VII seized the throne, he had to marry Elizabeth of York to secure his claim to the throne. After the Glorious Revolution, there were the Jacobite uprisings.

    These facts showed that many considered thought that claim of legitimacy superseded the right of conquest.
     
    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  2. There is no legitimate king of England because the legitimacy of the English monarch was rooted in the idea of divine appointment, and you can't square that with your new agnostic viewpoint.
     
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    Senior Lexmechanic

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  3. @Senior Lexmechanic said well. Monarchy is essentially a theological claim to authority, differing only from a Dictatorship in that might makes right is glossed over with God's authority. But if there's no deity, there's no divine sanction one way or the other. Ancient Mesopotamian cultures are quite interesting to study in this regard for the earliest forms of Kingship we know of, because they began as a sub-sect of the Clergy and then came to overtake them on mundane matters much like in later societies to come. It's not a coincidence the more irreligious socieites typically lean towards center-left, democratic/social democratic modes of governance.

    As for why people revolt, there's many reasons. They could just have not liked who came to replace him, maybe he put their taxes up. People hailed the return of the Bourbon Kings in France when Napoleon was exiled but then couldn't get rid of Louis fast enough when they realised what they were actually getting.
     
    Fagatron

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  4. There is also legalism. Monarchy was the legal system of government in England where the King ruled for life. Overthrowing a King was overthrowing the legal system. Here is an important riddle that I made that illustrates the concept.

    You arrive home and see that other people are living in your house.

    “Get off my property!” you shout.

    And then one of them says “Hey, you cannot oppose us for taking your property. After all, you think it is fine that the monarchs of Britain stole England from it’s true monarchs. You clearly don’t think that property rights matter.”

    “You are breaking the law. If you don’t get off I will call the police.”

    “We’ve got guns. We ain’t scared of no cops. And the law does not matter because legitimate authority does not matter. After all, the monarchs of Britain usurped the legitimate authority of England’s rightful monarchs and your fine with that. Now we are the authority on this property and we will make you our slave.”

    And that is why it is important that you support the cause to put England’s legitimate monarch on the throne if you believe that property rights and legitimate authority matter.
     
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    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  5. Tell me, why is the rightful heir important, exactly? What would change if there was a different powerless ass sitting in that chair?

    Frankly, given the puppet show the monarchy is today, I think the current Queen is basically about as good as could be expected. You'd have a hard time convincing me changing monarchs wouldn't make things (marginally) worse.

    edit-
    ...and then the cops come and shoot them, because they're the representative of the law, empowered by society at large. Much like the current monarchs are empowered by their own society. So even your 'illustrative example' doesn't work, even if you're willing to accept violent squatters intimate with one's online posts.
     
    #425 BillionBisonBucks, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    BillionBisonBucks

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  6. This argument is classic reducto ad absurdum, which is a very low form of counterargument. Any position can be spun out to a cartoonish extreme. For example: the monarch of England is the legitimate authority of the American colonies (taxation without representation was a legal non-issue even at the time, and in context would have been seen as sovcit-tier shit) by your argument because using force to sever a legitimate authority is never acceptable. Therefore, the US should become a colony of England.
     
    Senior Lexmechanic

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  7. Well restoring the true heir will be major change, because the true King will rule, not just reign like the modern monarchy because the monarchy at the time of Richard II had far greater power than they do now.

    And I found the rightful King. After doing research, I found that Richard II intended for his Edmund of Langley to be the next in line. This is due to the fact that he did not want his cousin Henry of Bolingbroke to inherit the throne because Henry was once part of the Lords Appellant, a rebel group of nobles. It was an attainder. Richard’s system of succession was therefore a revision of Edward III’s entail which barred women from inheriting the throne, Richard’s revision also barring Henry from the throne.


    So following agnatic primogeniture except when the direct male line dies out, the rightful heir to England’s throne is Louis Alphonse Duke of Anjou. He is also considered by some monarchists to be the rightful heir to the French throne but I am aware of the Peace of Utrecht where his ancestor, Phillip V of Spain renounced for himself and his descendants any right to the French throne.


    Future descendants of Louis Alphonse should therefore be groomed to be future kings.
     
    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  8. But King George III was not the rightful King according to my research so rebelling against his illegitimate authority was justified.
     
    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  9. But, as the King alone has the power to parcel out land and engage in other colonial action, that would in turn mean the entirety of the United States is an illegitimate country, and should forthwith dissolve.
    This is what is known as a dilemma: either George III was a legitimate king, in which case rebellion against him was unjust, or he was not, in which case the colonies were an illegitimate institution and had no right to exist in the first place.
     
    Senior Lexmechanic

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  10. What major changes specifically, though? What new laws will be passed? How will the world at large change?
     
    BillionBisonBucks

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  11. The American rebels overthrew the illegitimate institution and set up a new government. By overthrowing the source that made the colonies illegitimate, they became legitimate because there was no previous legitimate government that ruled over the territory of the original 13 colonies.
     
    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  12. Well, since England was traditionally Catholic, the Church of England will be forced to rejoin the Catholic Church(I am an ex Catholic but Catholicism is still part of England’s cultural heritage).

    Scotland will be made into a vassal kingdom with the heir to the House of Balliol restored to Scotland’s throne, since it was separate from England during the rule of Richard II.

    The death penalty will be restored for mass murderers, and those who commit high treason(trying to overthrow the government). Traditionally, traitors were publically beheaded and their heads were put on pikes and publically displayed for a while.

    Abortion will be made illegal except in cases where the mother’s life is in danger(which is extremely rare).

    There will be a return of anti blasphemy laws against the Christian God because even though I am not sure he exists, he was the God that was traditionally worshipped.

    There will be an end to open borders, to stop Muslims from immigrating to England and the Muslims living in England will have to either assimilate into western culture or get deported.

    Traditional family values will be promoted because the family unit is a core function in traditional society and procreation will help save the native English demographic. Because of that, the institution of marriage will be between one man and one woman, and there will no longer be divorce. In the case of abusive spouses, there will be a legal separation that will be very much like divorce, but the separated spouses will still be considered married, unless an annulment is granted.

    Since Richard II’s succession system was based on Salic law, the national anthem will be called God Save the King. The lyrics will also be revised to emphasize that the King will rule, not just reign.


    God save our gracious King!

    Long live our noble King!

    God save the King!

    Send him victorious,

    Happy and glorious,

    Long to rule over us:

    God save the King!


    O Lord our God arise,

    Scatter his enemies,

    And make them fall:

    Help them get defeated,

    Their charges to be read,

    Then they be beheaded:

    God save us all.


    Thy choicest gifts in store,

    On him be pleased to pour;

    Long may he rule:

    May he defend our laws,

    And ever give us cause,

    To sing with heart and voice,

    God save the King!
     
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    #432 Jacob Harrison, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  13. Food for thought Jacob. If we take your premise of traditional religions of the nation to be correct, and that the right of conquest is invalid....Wouldn't that make the former Constantine II of Greece King of the Americans?

    Think about it. Western Kings few their authority from the temporal authority of the Pope via the Donation of Constantine, a now proven fraudulent document claiming the Byzantine Emperor had relinquished their authority on the west (something they always denied).

    If right by conquest is invalid (thus also excluding the Ottomans from the succession of Lordship of Greece). That means the rightful King of England is a Greek Emperor,and America in turn did not have the authority to break from the England that rightfully should have been ruled by the Byzantine/Roman Emperor.

    Are you willing to install Constantine II of Greece as Emperor of Europa, Australia, the Middle East and the Americas?

    This only gets more and more complicated when you consider any territory the Roman/Byzanine Empires ever controlled should "rightfully" be ruled by Constantine II but that in this mode of thought any colonial territories taken by the illegitimate European governments like India, Africa etc all belong to him too.

    The only places on Earth that wouldn't "belong" to Constantine II would be Thailand and a few tiny spots across the Far East (which even then, would be debatable;China was nominally independent but held to abide by economic and political demands of European powers). Is this a prospect you desire?

    Don't forget the notion of primogeniture and sanguine succession are also invalid because they were invented by false illegitimate European leaders; the Romans/Byzantines practiced elective monarchy. While it was possible for a son or daughter to take over,this was not the norm.

    America had no right to declare independence from Greece and should accept Greek Orthodoxy as the state religion at once and submit to his Imperial Highness Constantine II of Earth.
     
    #433 Fagatron, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    Fagatron

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  14. As I said before, Emperor Michael I recognized Charlemagne as Basileus, and Charlemagne and his successors recognized the other European powers.
     
    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  15. A Basilius to the Byzantine is what amounts to an Emir or Vassal Lord. Domimus, the same name used to describe God was a title of the Roman/Byzantine Emperors from Diocletian onwards. Irene and Michael were both Basilius as well, but that was not their only or even primary title.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_I_Rangabe

    Charlemagne was to the Byzantine a vassal allowed to administer their territory. The fact he had far more power than an American State Govenor and the Byzantine were in denial about their own ability to command him his neither here nor there for this argument; they never recognised Charlemagne as Emperor in his own right. More important still, the Byzantine did not recognise kingship as hereditary;had they the power they would have installed someone else in his place if they were going to. It's one of the reasons Irene was so keen to marry him, because she seemed aware that the West was beyond her power and needed to be brought back under the Greek yoke. A child of both him and the Greek Emperor(ess) would have wielded unprecedented military, political and economic power for that era;and at least two of the three even if he was never elected Junior or Senior Emperor.


    Neither is the claim that Charlemagne was awarded patrimony by the Pope drawing on the Donation of Constantine valid due to it being a forgery ,making the Holy Roman Empire invalid.

    Hail Constantine! Defender of the true valid legitimate faith of the worldwide Greek Empire; Greek Orthodoxy!
     
    #435 Fagatron, Feb 9, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2019
    Fagatron

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  16. Here's the problem. You seem to expect people would just go 'oh, okay. Well if the law says so, we must obey'. Even if your choice of puppet was enstated, parliament isn't going to just accept it. Even if parliament was forced guns-to-head to dissolve themselves for good, the people would just take the fight to the palace. The English are not adverse to killing their own royals if need be. More likely, your puppet would be every bit the useless, powerless national pet that royals have been for centuries now.

    I very much enjoyed this telling depiction of your personally perfected England, though. Really shows everything there is to know about you.
     
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    BillionBisonBucks

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  17. The Iroquois, Algonquin, Cherokee, and Creek would like to have a word with you.

    The fact that you no longer believe in Catholicism but still want to force adherence to it on others isn't surprising, given that you want to reinstate the monarchy in a country you have no intention to live in. To speak honestly: your obsession speaks of a disordered state of mind. Have you ever been diagnosed with autism? Because your monomaniacal obsession with the "correct" way England should be reminds me of an autistic person's "special interests".
     
    Senior Lexmechanic

    Senior Lexmechanic Shitposting displeases the Omnissiah

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  18. The title of Basileus became a more important title by the time the Roman Empire became the Byzantine Empire.

    By the 4th century however, basileus was applied in official usage exclusively to the two rulers considered equals to the Roman Emperor: the Sassanid Persian shahanshah ("king of kings"), and to a lesser degree the King of Axum, whose importance was rather peripheral in the Byzantine worldview.[6] Consequently, the title acquired the connotation of "emperor", and when barbarian kingdoms emerged on the ruins of the Western Roman Empire in the 5th century, their rulers were referred to in Greek not as basileus but as rēx or rēgas, the hellenized forms of the Latin title rex, king.

    So by recognizing Charlemagne with such a title, it meant that they no longer considered themselves to have sovereignty over the territory he was ruling.

    And the reason why Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne Emperor of the Romans is because he saw the Byzantine throne as vacant due to the fact that Irene deposed her son Constantine VI making her an illegitimate Empress. That fact makes him a valid Roman Emperor.
     
    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  19. As I said before, my secret society will infiltrate parliament and then pass an act that will change the monarchy and give the true king absolute power. So it will be done by legal means.
     
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    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
  20. But the English colonists were the first to bring advanced civilization to the region. And I already explained the reason why I want to restore the true heir to the English throne. I have English ancestry, my dad has a British sports car, and America is culturally, an Anglo Saxon nation.
     
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    Jacob Harrison

    Jacob Harrison The person who discovered England's true monarch

    kiwifarms.net
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