The Washington thread. -

[Ravenor]

We had a a thread recently about Chris that dissolved into a discussion of Washington, and it was a rather good one!

Let's pull our stuff from there over to this thread an carry on.

 

[Dr. Meme]

obama should nuke washington

 

[Alex Krycek]

Anyone else intrigued by the possibility of West Ford and his family being descended from George Washington? I don't know a ton but I'm fairly certain they're at least descended from one of the Washingtons.

 

[MrsFrizzle]

Reposting: Washington didn't father kids most likely because of a bad case of mumps in his teen years. Washington had a bunch of severe chronic illnesses, including a bad case of recurring malaria and extensive arthritis. Which makes his military exploits even more badass, IMO.

There is a great episode of The Dollop podcast about Colonial American dentistry with a lot about Washington's teeth.

Re: West Ford: Occam's Razor suggests that West Ford's father was John Augustine Washington, his mother's owner, rather than George Washington, whose home West Ford's mother may or may not have ever been to.

George Washington wrote down extensive records of his travels, and he wasn't at his brother's house at any time that would intersect with the potential dates of West Ford's conception.

A positive Y-DNA match between a descendant of West Ford and a descendant of one of George Washington's nephews would not differentiate between the likelihood of John Augustine or George being the father, since both men had the same father and thus the same Y-DNA lineage.

 

[Oglooger]

I want to read more on this girl who is in love with Washington.

 

[Ravenor]

Anyone else intrigued by the possibility of West Ford and his family being descended from George Washington? I don't know a ton but I'm fairly certain they're at least descended from one of the Washingtons.

You know what I am as well, cases like this always interest me.
Cases of illegitimate descendants of potentates are always interesting an historically speaking so are there stories if they or there family where given a stipend by the father (as occasionally was the case with mistresses) they had more opportunity and freedom to make something of themselves.

 

[MrsFrizzle]

West Ford was given a (relatively) supervisory role in plantation management by John Augustine's son, and by all accounts Ford distinguished himself. But that also points more to John Augustine as potential father than to George.

 

[Ravenor]

Reposting: Washington didn't father kids most likely because of a bad case of mumps in his teen years. Washington had a bunch of severe chronic illnesses, including a bad case of recurring malaria and extensive arthritis. Which makes his military exploits even more badass, IMO.

There is a great episode of The Dollop podcast about Colonial American dentistry with a lot about Washington's teeth.

Re: West Ford: Occam's Razor suggests that West Ford's father was John Augustine Washington, his mother's owner, rather than George Washington, whose home West Ford's mother may or may not have ever been to.

George Washington wrote down extensive records of his travels, and he wasn't at his brother's house at any time that would intersect with the potential dates of West Ford's conception.

A positive Y-DNA match between a descendant of West Ford and a descendant of one of George Washington's nephews would not differentiate between the likelihood of John Augustine or George being the father, since both men had the same father and thus the same Y-DNA lineage.

Has there even been a side by side comparison made of his Travel log's with other sources?

I have always wanted to write a series of books with photographs of their diary's for that day or event (so we have it verbatim) next to historical facts and speculation and how that event is now viewed.

 

[Morbid Boredom]

Spoiler: Because it's hilarious.

(Cribbing my posts from the thread)

Personal lives of the presidents:

For what it's worth, Washington was an excellent dancer by all accounts -Martha Custiss might have thought that was hot. People married for practical reasons throughout history. If you want to see how spicy people get in the 18th century, read the letters between John Adams and Abigail Adams.

Wooden teeth:

George Washington did not have wooden teeth, a common myth because lots of items were made of wood (plastic and most resins were not yet invented) but wooden teeth would rot quickly in a human mouth. Dentures of the time were made of hippopotamus or elephant Ivory, which would have been much easier to maintain and longer lasting. If you were poor, you'd have to eat mush.

Trivia:

Parson Weems is a damned liar. Washington did not chop down a cherry tree as a boy.

George Washington's face adorns the Purple Heart, but he himself was ineligible for one. He had never been injured in combat, despite having been shot at on many occasions during the French and Indian War (The Seven Years War).

 

[Ravenor]

West Ford was given a (relatively) supervisory role in plantation management by John Augustine's son, and by all accounts Ford distinguished himself. But that also points more to John Augustine as potential father than to George.

Can I ask was that position viewed as a negative? In prison an forced labor camps Prisoners who assist the guards out of choice an take a position of authority are viewed as worse than dog shit.

 

[Ravenor]

Spoiler: Because it's hilarious.

(Cribbing my posts from the thread)

Personal lives of the presidents:

For what it's worth, Washington was an excellent dancer by all accounts -Martha Custiss might have thought that was hot. People married for practical reasons throughout history. If you want to see how spicy people get in the 18th century, read the letters between John Adams and Abigail Adams.

Wooden teeth:

George Washington did not have wooden teeth, it's a common myth, given that lots of items were made of wood (plastic and most resins not yet invented). Wooden teeth would rot quickly in a human mouth. Dentures of the time were made of Hippopotamus or Elephant Ivory, which would have been much easier to maintain and longer lasting. If you were poor, you'd have to eat mush.

Trivia:

Parson Weems is a damned liar. Washington did not chop down a cherry tree as a boy.

George Washington's face adorns the Purple Heart, but he himself was ineligible for one. He had never been injured in combat, despite having been shot at on many occasions during the French and Indian War (The Seven Years War).

The wooden teeth thing, is a miss conception there where wooden teeth they where either temporary things or for the lower class. Any one who has had a broken tooth or one that needs a filling knows that pain an it was common to visit the local Barbour an get the tooth pulled (there is a reason they are called the Guild of barbour surgeons, an the red stripe on the pole) and untreated wood does rot away especially in a hostile environment like the human mouth but from my understanding the dentures available to the lower class where more than basic even for the era.
If you could afford it Ivory or Hippo tooth was the choice replacement.

 

[Morbid Boredom]

Can I ask was that position viewed as a negative? In prison an forced labor camps Prisoners who assist the guards out of choice an take a position of authority are viewed as worse than dog shit.

West Ford was afforded a few privileges, apparently. I'd assume slaves working in the fields resented Ford for them.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/video/tofords.html

"House nigger" and "House Slave" are still used as insults among Blacks. Crazy Zionist Jews do use "Capo" (Concentration Camp prisoners who supervised the others) to refer to Jews with less-than-fanatical support for Israel.

 

[Bluce Wee]

I'll pull mine over:

He was actually known as a bit of a ladies man and a flirt according to most sources and some letters. He was passionately in love with the wife of a friend of his and they traded some really tragic "we can't love one another" letters that are kinda heartbreaking.

and

You're thinking of Jefferson and Sally Hemmings. Washington was rumored to have had a kid with a slave but I don't think that's ever been proven conclusively. George and Martha never had kids - though he treated the kids from Martha's first marriage as if they were his own.

--

I was going to add that he did have dentures, but yeah, they weren't wooden. His teeth were a huge source of embarrassment and discomfort for him, namely because 18th century denture making wasn't what you would call a precise science and they were ill-fitting and awkward to use.

The biographies of the man by Chernow and by Ellis are excellent. I prefer the former, personally, because it's much more indepth, but that makes it a behemoth of a book. The Ellis one glosses over more and spends more time on his public life than his private one (what I was more interested in reading), but it's good for an overview. If you want to go even bigger, there's the Flexner 4-volume bio, but Chernow's ~1000 page bio is probably good enough if you're not about to write a thesis on the guy.

Honestly, Washington was a really interesting, lively person, way beyond the stoic, cold, Senatorial image we have of him in American political mythology.

 

[Ravenor]

West Ford was afforded a few privileges, apparently. I'd assume slaves working in the fields resented Ford for them.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jefferson/video/tofords.html

"House nigger" and "House Slave" are still used as insults among Blacks. Crazy Zionist Jews do use "Capo" (Concentration Camp prisoners who supervised the others) to refer to Jews with less-than-fanatical support for Israel.

I didn't know it extended into the modern era, thanks for the info dump

An Capo's are why I asked the question the City I live in has a huge Jewish community (an always has) so the holocaust was always on the curriculum in WW2 History lessons, and the hate for the Capos extends to this day. I was told about one family who where supposedly banned from a Temple over there realtioship to one (I have no idea if that was just supposition, an only learned about it from a Friend).
Also a little bit of info for you all, Liverpool had the first Mosqe in England, it was used mostly by Turkish Sailors an didn't last much longer than 50 years but it was right next to the Anglican cathedral and China town (also the oldest outside of Asia) my city was also the first America after the revolutionary war set up a embassy in.

 

[Some JERK]

Honestly, Washington was a really interesting, lively person, way beyond the stoic, cold, Senatorial image we have of him in American political mythology.

I agree. I read a pretty interesting biography of Washington that asserted that among other things, Washington was freakishly strong, and that a great deal of his leadership abilities stemmed from the fact that most men were physically intimidated by him. I'm wondering if this is mentioned elsewhere?

 

[Morbid Boredom]

I agree. I read a pretty interesting biography of Washington that asserted that among other things, Washington was freakishly strong, and that a great deal of his leadership abilities stemmed from the fact that most men were physically intimidated by him. I'm wondering if this is mentioned elsewhere?

I know he was well above average height for his time.

And Napoleon wasn't short, for that matter, that's the fault of the French measuring inches differently than the British. It doesn't help he surrounded himself with grenadiers -literally the biggest soldiers in the army.

 

[Bluce Wee]

By all accounts, he struck an incredibly imposing figure. Played a huge role in commanding respect of the soldiers and it was something he was well aware of, something he took advantage of such as intentionally buying impressive looking clothes to be his military uniforms and riding the largest horse he could.

 

[Alex Krycek]

And Napoleon wasn't short, for that matter, that's the fault of the French measuring inches differently than the British. It doesn't help he surrounded himself with grenadiers -literally the biggest soldiers in the army.

Also Josephine was a tall chick, so their portraits together supposedly showed this off. It was also political propoganda as a jab at Corsica as it's incredibly asmall when compared to Britain.

 

[asperhes]

By all accounts, he struck an incredibly imposing figure. Played a huge role in commanding respect of the soldiers and it was something he was well aware of, something he took advantage of such as intentionally buying impressive looking clothes to be his military uniforms and riding the largest horse he could.

He was really good at manufacturing his public image. During his presidency, he took a tour of all thirteen states. When his company was approaching a town, he would get off his ordinary brown horse and get on his cool-looking white one, and ride to the front of the procession, to enter the town in style. Since the townspeople knew he was coming, they would assist in giving him a grand entrance, with girls dressed in white throwing down a carpet of flower petals, that sort of stuff. He knew how to sell himself.

Washington was the first American action hero. His popularity stemmed from his military ventures, as he really wasn't a good writer, or public speaker, or thinker, or politician. His actions were everything. As others have pointed out, he was tall and powerfully built and cut an imposing figure. He was also especially handsome, by the standards of the time. He was a sex symbol. One interesting aspect of the symbology of Washington is that he and Martha could not have children, so out of pity, he was embraced as the "father of the country." That is, America was his only child. So there's a weird Freudian thing going on here.

He was also really good at embracing his feminine side. A popular emotional stance in the late 18th century was "sentimentality." It was kind of a forerunner to Romanticism. It was considered manly to shed tears (in moderation) in public when thinking about sad subjects. Washington was an expert at this stance. He actually had a bad temper, but he was able to hide it from the public (not unlike Obama). It was an extremely important aspect of being a gentleman than you be able to control your emotions. If you can't "master" your feelings, how can you be expected to manage your family and slaves? If Washington seems emotionless and tightly disciplined, it's because this was expected of him, and it made him more admirable.

He was also the most popular president in American history, without question. People actually started celebrating Washington's Birthday as a holiday while he was still alive. Independence Day and Washington's Birthday were really the only national holidays for decades. Nowadays all we have is a watered-down "President's Day," and no one gives a shit about it, so it's hard to imagine that it used to be a big deal. Washington was pretty much appointed to his two terms; there were no real political parties yet and no one with any sense would run against him. There is no one else in American history who has had this much of a personality cult built around him. This is why I love Brad Neely's Washington so much--it's a brilliant take on his public persona.

 

[exball]

This was the real Washington

.