Tolkien general thread -

[Finrod Felagund]

As of writing this OP (25 March), it is Tolkien Reading Day!

There hasn't been a general thread for Tolkien, and I'm very sure there are fellow kiwis out here who are wonderful fans of the Professor's works. So feel free to sperg from Aman to Beleriand about the books and adaptations.
On the subject of adaptations, if you're interested in the upcoming Amazon Prime series, this thread will cover you on it.

 

[Captain Ahab]

I actually just started reading The Road to Middle Earth (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/564204.The_Road_to_Middle_Earth).

 

[Graffiti canvas]

Tolkien threads end up making me regret being a fan. Invariably someone will get into a pissing contest with someone else about the correct pronunciation of some obscure Elvish word documented in the Silmarillion and what it implies to the lore. Next thing you know, people are REEE-ing and throwing temper tantrums on the internet about a fictional world.

That said though, I'm due for my re-read of LOTR. I also spent a shameful amount of time and money on LOTRO and for an MMO, it follows the lore closer than almost any 3rd party adaptation I've ever seen, at least through the first half of the game.

 

[Nekromantik]

My father read me the Hobbit when I was 7. He had a hardback copy of the book that has a map in it, that's how I learned to read maps. He would have me find where the party was on the map after every chapter. And now his Tolkien books are mine. Every time I reread the books I still catch myself also following the adventure on the maps.

 

[RG 448]

What is Bombadil though

 

[FA 855]

When I was much younger my Grandpa was a big fan of LOTR, he never got to see the films released sadly but I read his old LOTR books and I always thought they were vastly superior to harry potter normies.

 

[Graffiti canvas]

What is Bombadil though

It's never really clear. I just decided that he was one of the Valar who fucked off super early to do his own thing and couldn't be arsed to deal with all the other important shit that happened.

Nigga just wanted to get drunk, sing songs and hang out with Goldberry, not fight a bunch of bullshit wars. Based hippie god of Middle Earth.

 

[Finrod Felagund]

What is Bombadil though

Based hippie god of Middle Earth.

More or less the answer.

It's all up to the reader's wildest imaginations tbh. He could be a Maia like Melian, or one of the Valar like Yavanna and Aulë, or even a self-insert of the author himself. I'd like to believe he's the physical spirit of nature that is on Middle-earth.

[EDIT] formatting is sucking ass

 

[Finrod Felagund]

Double post. We now got a thread on the Tolkien biopic that'll be out this summer.

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

Fun fact, when the Silmarillion was released, critics scorned the work up and down and even went as far as to say that Tolkien couldn't write.

Y'know, just in case you needed another reason to distrust professional critics.

 

[Dubu Kimchi]

Fun fact, when the Silmarillion was released, critics scorned the work up and down and even went as far as to say that Tolkien couldn't write.

Y'know, just in case you needed another reason to distrust professional critics.

People also thought he didn't write it, that it was his son Christopher just trying to cash in.

 

[Slap47]

Started reading LotR today. Gonna be a wild ride.

Fun fact, when the Silmarillion was released, critics scorned the work up and down and even went as far as to say that Tolkien couldn't write.

Y'know, just in case you needed another reason to distrust professional critics.

The Letter Drop said the book had a bad vibe so I immediately stopped liking it.

 

[Brahma]

That's odd. I much prefer it to lotr or the hobbit

 

[Moria Troon]

Fun fact, when the Silmarillion was released, critics scorned the work up and down and even went as far as to say that Tolkien couldn't write.

Y'know, just in case you needed another reason to distrust professional critics.

My favourite part of the Silmarillion was the bit with the dog. (A maia dog?) Really, what a good dog!

 

[Puddleduck]

At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!

Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!

(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm

 

[Fatrick Hamlinson]

I read my Lord of the Rings multi-volume book so often, the cover wore off.

At any point during lunch all throughout 8th grade, I would read that book from cover to cover. Appendices too.

Also played LOTRO, and will likely play it again. Best section is the Barrow Downs - that part in the game really gets the spookiness of the description in the first book of LotR.

The odd thing is that my father got me interested in it, and then a few years later said I was too interested.

 

[Bass]

At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!

Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!

(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm

That's cool and all, but if he is the Witch King, why didn't he just leave with the ring when he put it on instead of giving the ring back? The Witch King's job was to get the ring back for Sauron instead of handing it over to a bunch of rustic midgets and playing grab ass with Goldberry all day.

 

[Local Fed]

At last, the mystery of Tom Bombadil's identity has been solved.

Ready?

Tom Bombadil and the Witch-king of Angmar are the same person.

1. We never hear of Tom at all during the whole of the First Age. The Nine Rings aren't forged until the Second Age. QED.

2. You never see the two of them together.

3. In the first part of Fellowship of the Ring, the Nazgul are sent to the Shire to look for the wandering Baggins. Interestingly, Tom says to Frodo at the dinner-table: "...I was waiting for you. We heard news of you, and learned that you were wandering... But Tom had an errand there, that he dared not hinder" (Fellowship p.137 hardback, emphasis mine: note the fear Tom has of his master, Sauron!).

4. In Tom's questioning of the Hobbits, JRRT notes that "there was a glint in his eyes when he heard of the Riders." (Fellowship p. 144) I think he was concerned that his double-life might have been noticed. Interestingly, Tom immediately changes the subject of conversation!

Furthermore, the One Ring had no effect on Tom - which seems consistent with Tolkien's observations about how the Nazgul would have handled the same priceless object (Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, #246): "They were... in no way deceived as to the real lordship of the Ring."

5. It's also interesting to note that Tom could see Frodo clearly while Frodo was wearing the Ring (Fellowship p. 144 hardback) - just as the Witch-king could see Frodo clearly while he was wearing the Ring at Weathertop! (Fellowship p. 208 hardback)

6. Perhaps most damning, however, is the incident with the Barrow-wights (Fellowship pp. 151-155), where Tom - with nothing more than a few simple words (p. 154) - commands the Barrow-wight to leave. And it does, without argument. Why would the Wight be so completely under Tom's control? Because in his alternate guise as the Witch-king of Angmar, Tom ordered the Wight to inhabit the barrow in the first place! Turning to Return of the King, Appendix A, p. 321, "evil spirits out of Angmar... entered into the deserted mounds and dwelt there." Obviously the Witch-king was reponsible for sending the wights there; just as obviously, the Witch-king (disguised as Tom) would be capable of ordering them to leave!

(This is related to another passage, which has since been brought to my attention. On Fellowship page 158 hardback, Tom is guiding the Hobbits back towards the Road when he gazes towards the borders of Cardolan. "Tom said that it had once been the boundary of a kingdom, but a very long time ago. He seemed to remember something sad about it, and would not say much." Since Tom, as the Witch-king, was the one who destroyed the kingdom of Cardolan, it's little wonder that he wouldn't say much about his involvement. Perhaps his remembering "something sad" reveals some remorse at being the instrument of Cardolan's destruction...?)

...Yep: I think we have an airtight case here.

...It's worth noting that, after the Witch-king was dead, Gandalf said he was "going to have a long talk with Bombadil" (Return of the King, p. 275). Curiously, he never tells anyone about the meeting later... and he's right there at the Grey Havens at the end of the book, undelayed it seems by long conversation. I think we can therefore theorize that Gandalf made it to the Old Forest, but that Tom (once the so-called "Witch-king" had died) was nowhere to be found!

...Of course, all this brings up the curiosity of motive. What would make the Witch-King of Angmar sport such a double identity? I suppose that the Witch-king, once of proud Numenorean ancestry, felt trapped by the guise of evil which Sauron had tricked him into, and in the fullness of time forged this alternate identity for himself so that he could occasionally feel happy, helpful, noble, and more at one with himself and his lineage. The situation is perhaps analagous to a crossdresser who, feeling trapped in a man's body, would occasionally assume the identity of a woman. It therefore makes sense that the Witch-king's other identity would be so peculiarly enigmatic, and perhaps sheds light on JRRT's observation in Letters #144: "And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."

...Who else would be aware of Tom's double-life, I wonder? Since Tom repeatedly claims to have been around "before the river and the trees", and indeed even claims to be older than the Ents (Fellowship p. 142), surely the eldest of the Elves would know he was lying. Elrond plays along with Tom in public, being kind enough not to reveal his secret, but also seems to know that Tom and the Witch-king are one and the same; hence his refusal to give the Ring to Tom for safekeeping (Fellowship p. 278-9): "Power to defy the Enemy is not in him."

http://flyingmoose.org/tolksarc/theories/bombadil.htm

I don't really see the Tom = Witch King connection. Furthermore, Gandalf says that the Ring wouldn't be important to him and that he might just misplace it. If Tom is the Witch King it would be of the utmost importance to him. Tom even said that he existed before Sauron came to Arda and implies that he (Tom) might be the oldest thing in Arda. Tom's stupidly powerful, I don't think he could be under the control of Sauron or even Melkor previously. If anything I think your theory makes more sense if you think that Tom is being directed by Eru Iluvatar. Tom could have been sent by Iluvatar to look at how things were going in Middle Earth but to not directly intervene unless absolutely necessary. He may not dare hinder with his errand considering who his master is: literally God, not just some butthurt fallen Maia.

 

[Slap47]

Started reading LotR today. Gonna be a wild ride.

First book is a damn good read. I'm not really sure if creating a good and faithful mini series for it is even possible, but I'd riot if they didn't add all of the songs and poems.

 

[Slap47]

This Tolkien Society seminar looks fun.

Saruman is gay
Gondor symbolizes transgenderism
Dwarf women have been erased
Half-elves are some kind of commentary on Ireland
Lots of atheists in MiddleEarth apparently